Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[Jason Andrade]

As for the Simpliphi I have them in a few projects one being Governor Browns 
offgrid home and my own off-grid residence is powered using them.
I recently re-engineered the Outback IBR3 for the phi 3.5 and made an advanced 
version for my own.  I purchased a flexnet battery monitor and used all three 
channels for the IBR I have a spare Flexmax80 that powers a hub 4 and a second 
mate 3.  You are able to aggregate this data into optics and overlay the two.  
I’ll admit I haven’t had a lot of time to tweak with it but I think you can see 
it as an optics preview through outback.

I agree data on the Lifpo4 is critical and my understanding is Simpliphi will 
be releasing a version soon that has comms.

I also have a Discover AES bank on my off grid woodshop consisting of 4 of the 
6.5 coupled with three of the older xantrex xw inverters this is a great 
platform so far and you can see the battery as a device on the scp, you can 
also direct connect using a usb to usb cable to the battery and upload firmware 
and see the battery specifics

Jason Andrade
West Coast Sustainables


Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 23, 2019, at 2:21 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote:
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 16:08:55 -0600
> From: Darryl Thayer 
> To: offgridso...@sti.net, newrewrenches
>   
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> I have used Simphiphy.  Had a problem  over time nearly 2 years the cells
> were what appears to be out of balance.  I think i balanced them by setting
> the charge voltage higher than recomended.  I think the factory has it wrong
> 
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019, 1:39 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
> offgridso...@sti.net wrote:
> 
>> Simplyphi does not have a built in method for Soc. The BMS works well but
>> the install requires an energy monitor with a shunt. Too much work for me
>> and my clients. Their batteries are too small at 3.5 kwh or so. If they
>> changed the size up, and got Soc out to OUtback or Schneider I would use
>> them.
>> 
>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
>> text 209 813 0060
>> 
>>> Awhile back, it was mentioned that missmatched cell voltages could be
>>> corrected with a 6 volt charger attached to each low layer.  I tried this
>>> on one and it worked.  I have several stacks that have mostly even
>>> voltages
>>> with one cell over charged.  Often 8 to 25 volts.  Some showed the high
>>> voltage layer when under charge but looked normal when static.  Others
>> had
>>> the high voltage even when static.  Are these layers just totally
>>> defective
>>> or could the voltage be bled off somehow down to the average.  Has anyone
>>> tried this.  I have three  customers with Aquions that are working well
>>> and
>>> staying balanced.  This customer has 24 batteries and 13 show this
>>> problem.
>>> Capacity of the bank is very poor.  Customer is ready to call lawyer!
>> Any
>>> ideas?
>>> Tump, yes these include the batteries from Maine but also half of his
>>> original 12 are showing the same problem.
>>> 
>>> John Blittersdorf.
>>> CV Wind Service (and Solar)
>>> 200 West Road
>>> N Chittenden, VT 05763
>>> 802-770-8625

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 24, 2019, at 2:04 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote:
> 
> Re: Aquion Batteries
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[jerrysgarage01]

DarrylYou might want to look at Blue ion, have a bunch installed and they have 
been great "Mars Mission Ready" great, had a customer that survived the Fires 2 
years ago and all the time with no power these batteries kept up.Jerry


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: Darryl Thayer  
Date: 1/23/19  2:08 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: offgridso...@sti.net, newrewrenches 
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries 
I have used Simphiphy.  Had a problem  over time nearly 2 years the cells were 
what appears to be out of balance.  I think i balanced them by setting the 
charge voltage higher than recomended.  I think the factory has it wrong
On Wed, Jan 23, 2019, 1:39 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/

e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net

text 209 813 0060



> Awhile back, it was mentioned that missmatched cell voltages could be

> corrected with a 6 volt charger attached to each low layer.  I tried this

> on one and it worked.  I have several stacks that have mostly even

> voltages

> with one cell over charged.  Often 8 to 25 volts.  Some showed the high

> voltage layer when under charge but looked normal when static.  Others had

> the high voltage even when static.  Are these layers just totally

> defective

> or could the voltage be bled off somehow down to the average.  Has anyone

> tried this.  I have three  customers with Aquions that are working well

> and

> staying balanced.  This customer has 24 batteries and 13 show this

> problem.

> Capacity of the bank is very poor.  Customer is ready to call lawyer!  Any

> ideas?

> Tump, yes these include the batteries from Maine but also half of his

> original 12 are showing the same problem.

>

> John Blittersdorf.

> CV Wind Service (and Solar)

> 200 West Road

> N Chittenden, VT 05763

> 802-770-8625

>

>

> PS Also any feedback on the Simpliphi batteries would be appreciated.  I

> have just two systems using these so far.   Both small.  2  48 v and 5

> 24v.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[Darryl Thayer]

I have used Simphiphy.  Had a problem  over time nearly 2 years the cells
were what appears to be out of balance.  I think i balanced them by setting
the charge voltage higher than recomended.  I think the factory has it wrong

On Wed, Jan 23, 2019, 1:39 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net wrote:

>  Simplyphi does not have a built in method for Soc. The BMS works well but
> the install requires an energy monitor with a shunt. Too much work for me
> and my clients. Their batteries are too small at 3.5 kwh or so. If they
> changed the size up, and got Soc out to OUtback or Schneider I would use
> them.
>
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
>
> > Awhile back, it was mentioned that missmatched cell voltages could be
> > corrected with a 6 volt charger attached to each low layer.  I tried this
> > on one and it worked.  I have several stacks that have mostly even
> > voltages
> > with one cell over charged.  Often 8 to 25 volts.  Some showed the high
> > voltage layer when under charge but looked normal when static.  Others
> had
> > the high voltage even when static.  Are these layers just totally
> > defective
> > or could the voltage be bled off somehow down to the average.  Has anyone
> > tried this.  I have three  customers with Aquions that are working well
> > and
> > staying balanced.  This customer has 24 batteries and 13 show this
> > problem.
> > Capacity of the bank is very poor.  Customer is ready to call lawyer!
> Any
> > ideas?
> > Tump, yes these include the batteries from Maine but also half of his
> > original 12 are showing the same problem.
> >
> > John Blittersdorf.
> > CV Wind Service (and Solar)
> > 200 West Road
> > N Chittenden, VT 05763
> > 802-770-8625
> >
> >
> > PS Also any feedback on the Simpliphi batteries would be appreciated.  I
> > have just two systems using these so far.   Both small.  2  48 v and 5
> > 24v.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

 Simplyphi does not have a built in method for Soc. The BMS works well but
the install requires an energy monitor with a shunt. Too much work for me
and my clients. Their batteries are too small at 3.5 kwh or so. If they
changed the size up, and got Soc out to OUtback or Schneider I would use
them.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

> Awhile back, it was mentioned that missmatched cell voltages could be
> corrected with a 6 volt charger attached to each low layer.  I tried this
> on one and it worked.  I have several stacks that have mostly even
> voltages
> with one cell over charged.  Often 8 to 25 volts.  Some showed the high
> voltage layer when under charge but looked normal when static.  Others had
> the high voltage even when static.  Are these layers just totally
> defective
> or could the voltage be bled off somehow down to the average.  Has anyone
> tried this.  I have three  customers with Aquions that are working well
> and
> staying balanced.  This customer has 24 batteries and 13 show this
> problem.
> Capacity of the bank is very poor.  Customer is ready to call lawyer!  Any
> ideas?
> Tump, yes these include the batteries from Maine but also half of his
> original 12 are showing the same problem.
>
> John Blittersdorf.
> CV Wind Service (and Solar)
> 200 West Road
> N Chittenden, VT 05763
> 802-770-8625
>
>
> PS Also any feedback on the Simpliphi batteries would be appreciated.  I
> have just two systems using these so far.   Both small.  2  48 v and 5
> 24v.
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[RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[John Blittersdorf]

Awhile back, it was mentioned that missmatched cell voltages could be
corrected with a 6 volt charger attached to each low layer.  I tried this
on one and it worked.  I have several stacks that have mostly even voltages
with one cell over charged.  Often 8 to 25 volts.  Some showed the high
voltage layer when under charge but looked normal when static.  Others had
the high voltage even when static.  Are these layers just totally defective
or could the voltage be bled off somehow down to the average.  Has anyone
tried this.  I have three  customers with Aquions that are working well and
staying balanced.  This customer has 24 batteries and 13 show this problem.
Capacity of the bank is very poor.  Customer is ready to call lawyer!  Any
ideas?
Tump, yes these include the batteries from Maine but also half of his
original 12 are showing the same problem.

John Blittersdorf.
CV Wind Service (and Solar)
200 West Road
N Chittenden, VT 05763
802-770-8625


PS Also any feedback on the Simpliphi batteries would be appreciated.  I
have just two systems using these so far.   Both small.  2  48 v and 5  24v.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[Drake]

I was told by SMA tech support that the new SMA
US 40s were compatible with AC coupling. I was
provided with interface cards for the purpose.

At 04:21 PM 3/8/2017, William Miller wrote:

What are the limitations of the new SMA inverters?

Drake



Wrenches:
Â
As a caution:Â  The TL22 inverters have been
discontinued.  The TL40s have some limitations
as compared to the TL22s, in my opinion.  You
may still find TL22s on the shelf.
Â
William
Â
Â
Gradient Cap_mini

Lic 773985
<http://www.millersolar.com/>millersolar.com
805-438-5600
Â
From: RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tump
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 1:13 PM
To: <mailto:findso...@herzfeld.org>findso...@herzfeld.org; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries
Â
I have dual Sunny Islands & dual SB 4000TL22US Â
w/ 20 stack on one and another site w/ theÂ
Aspen 48MÂ w/ Schneider. I will say this; cost
per amp hour of storage  sucks w/ the Aquion
batteries. Both my client and I feel, that the
batteries, despite there size have very little
capacity. The “30”%DOD, that I have the SIs
set to start the Gen set, charges the stacks OK
but one gets better performance from  charging
w/slower solar source. The Aspen48M is ~
42X28X42” @563 AH of capacity, UnigyII 2000 Ah
~ 42x40x6’ tall. Batteries are defiantly
temperature sensitive, operating should be ~
60*. The set up w/ the SMA product, adds
additional cost due to the required  BM200 AND
 the Sunny Island Interface Device, and the
SM100 unless you are buying theAspen48M which
comes pre wired. (Aspen 48M which comes thru w/
the sensing module installed).  It is quite
helpful, if this is an off grid install due to
the fact that the BM200 needs and when things go
south Aquion can toggle the unit off site and
help w/ configuration &Â upgrades, to be
connected to the internet. This install also
needs the correct firmware to be installed on
the SI which when  was delivered, the firmware
 would only load into the master then shut down
the system. Had to reconfigure as 2 separate
units, load the firm ware and then reconfigure for 2 phase.Â
I have spoken to the manufacture re/ lack of
capacity and was told that must be my loads…. NOT.Â
>I would suggest that despite their hype these
are quite expensive and require quite a bit
more of labor IF you are wiring the un sensed
stacks. And there is definitely a learning curve if you are using the SI.
My own system and what I prefer to push IS the
SMA SI w/ the SMA SBs (make sure that you get
the TL22s as the newest SB is not compatible
for “ AC coupling” in this configuration)
w/ the Unigy II/MK line. (same battery) These
have buss bars, stack vertically , the
interlocking stacks is perfect for earthquake
locations. AND are totally recyclable.
Pictures  of the SMA install & insights of
battery installation available, contact me off line.  TUMPÂ
 Â
On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld
<<mailto:findso...@herzfeld.org>findso...@herzfeld.org> wrote:
Â
Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny
Island?  Space is not an issue for this client.
Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™
for PV Installation Professional #IREC 10037
California Solaar Contractor License  #00833782  C46, D56, D31, C-7
Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation

UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034
CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG

Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider
   Â
Â
On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer"
<<mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>jerrysgarag...@gmail.com> wrote:
We had a customer request them but once we found
out how many it would take, he decided on the
deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's
at such a low voltage as they seem to get hotter
due to the higher current. Some of our other
product lines don't even reccomend aquions due
to that low voltage, suggest asking your inverter manufacture too.
Â
On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake"
<<mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>
wrote:
Hello Wrenches,

I have a client who is going to take the plunge
and buy a set of Aquion Batteries. They look
pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well
an inverter would function at the 40 V minimum.
Does anyone have experience to recommend them or warn against using them?

Thanks,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328
<http://athens-electric.com/>http://athens-electric.com/
Â
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[Andrew Truitt]

FYI, Aquion just went BK

.



- Andrew



"Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion
to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor
safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could
ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"

~William McDonough

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 12:57 PM, John Blittersdorf <
john.blittersd...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Drake,
> I just did my first Aquion Install on an off-grid second home.  It is
> a 24V single VFX3524.  10 Aspen 24 volt stacks.  No one has been living
> there since I installed it but at least the generator stopped running 2 or
> 3 times a day just to maintain the heating system. The generator hasn't run
> at all (since the first charge) the 10 days since we installed it. I am
> waiting for the owners to come up from NYC in early April to give it the
> test.  It will get hit hard so we should know right away how it will
> respond.  I have the system monitored on OpticsRE so we will be able to see
> what is happening.  So far the batteries have stayed between 24.6 and
> 28.6.  I, too, am anxious to see what happens when we are running with the
> inverter set for the lowest setting which I think is around 39 or 40
> volts.  It will be great to have the OpticsRE control to play around with
> the AGS settings to find the most efficient settings in regard to generator
> run time.   Our #1 goal now is to minimize gen time.
>
> John Blittersdorf
> Solar Guru
> Rob Stubbins Solar
>
> On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld 
> wrote:
>
>> Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny Island?  Space is not an issue
>> for this client.
>>
>> Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation
>> Professional #IREC 10037
>> California Solar Contractor License  #00833782  C46, D56, D31, C-7
>> Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation
>>
>> UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
>> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034
>> CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG
>>
>> Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider
>>
>>
>> On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer"  wrote:
>>
>> We had a customer request them but once we found out how many it would
>> take, he decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at
>> such a low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current.
>> Some of our other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that
>> low voltage, suggest asking your inverter manufacture too.
>>
>> On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Wrenches,
>>>
>>> I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion
>>> Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an
>>> inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience to
>>> recommend them or warn against using them?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Drake
>>>
>>> Drake Chamberlin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified
>>> Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/
>>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[William Miller]

Wrenches:



As a caution:  The TL22 inverters have been discontinued.  The TL40s have
some limitations as compared to the TL22s, in my opinion.  You may still
find TL22s on the shelf.



William





[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Tump
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 08, 2017 1:13 PM
*To:* findso...@herzfeld.org; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries



I have dual Sunny Islands & dual SB 4000TL22US  w/ 20 stack on one and
another site w/ the *Aspen 48M* w/ Schneider. I will say this; cost per amp
hour of storage  sucks w/ the Aquion batteries. Both my client and I feel,
that the batteries, despite there size have very little capacity. The
“30”%DOD, that I have the SIs set to start the Gen set, charges the stacks
OK but one gets better performance from  charging w/slower solar source.
The Aspen48M is ~ 42X28X42” @563 AH of capacity, UnigyII 2000 Ah ~ 42x40x6’
tall. Batteries are defiantly temperature sensitive, operating should be ~
60*. The set up w/ the SMA product, adds additional cost due to the
required  BM200 AND  the Sunny Island Interface Device, and the SM100
unless you are buying theAspen48M which comes pre wired. (*Aspen 48M which
comes thru w/ the sensing module installed).  It is quite helpful, if this
is an off grid install due to the fact that the BM200 needs and when things
go south Aquion can toggle the unit off site and help w/ configuration
& **upgrades,
to be connected to the internet. This install also needs the correct
firmware to be installed on the SI which when  was delivered, the firmware
 would only load into the master then shut down the system. Had
to reconfigure as 2 separate units, load the firm ware and then reconfigure
for 2 phase. *

*I have spoken to the manufacture re/ lack of capacity and was told that
must be my loads…. NOT. *

*I would suggest that despite their hype these are quite expensive and
require quite a bit more of labor IF you are wiring the un sensed stacks.
And there is definitely a learning curve if you are using the SI.*

*My own system and what I prefer to push IS the SMA SI w/ the SMA SBs (make
sure that you get the TL22s as the newest SB is not compatible for “ AC
coupling” in this configuration) w/ the Unigy II/MK line. (same battery)
These have buss bars, stack vertically , the interlocking stacks is perfect
for earthquake locations. AND are totally **recyclable.*

*Pictures  of the SMA install & insights of battery installation available,
contact me off line.  TUMP *



On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld  wrote:



Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny Island?  Space is not an issue for
this client.

Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation
Professional #IREC 10037
California Solar Contractor License  #00833782  C46, D56, D31, C-7
Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation

UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034
CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG

Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider




On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer"  wrote:

We had a customer request them but once we found out how many it would
take, he decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at
such a low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current.
Some of our other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that
low voltage, suggest asking your inverter manufacture too.



On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake" 
wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion
Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an
inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience to
recommend them or warn against using them?

Thanks,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin





*Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar
PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328>*http://athens-electric.com/



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Tump,

If you recall, this is EXACTLY what I was calling into question on this list 
back on November 11th, 2014 and again on Jan 29th, 2016. It looks like you have 
confirmed my suspicion. The battery can not possible provide the rated 
capacity. I hope others that have tested these batteries will also confirm this 
as it could be a very expensive mistake.

Here’s my Jan 29th post:

"Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge curve way 
outside that of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I can't see how this 
technology could be scaled to RE applications without wasting much of the 
capacity. From what I see, only about 40% could be used before LVD.

And this:
The Aquion battery claims their 2.4kWh, 48 volt stack operates from 59 to 30 
volts. Many inverters have a LBCO of 1.75 Vpc (42 volts). Depending on voltage 
sag, that means about half of the capacity of the Aquion battery can't be used. 
Even if the outback can operate down to 1.5 Vpc, you are still not able to use 
the full capacity of the battery unless your load is less than 800 Watts. 

I have reviewed their technical presentation and it looks to me like the 
capacity simply can't be used in the off grid environment. If you can't use it, 
why do they rate it at 2.4kWh? BTW, the Voltage vs.Energy chart on the spec 
sheet does not match the first chart I posted."



Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103





On Mar 8, 2017, at 2:13 PM, Tump  wrote:

I have dual Sunny Islands & dual SB 4000TL22US  w/ 20 stack on one and another 
site w/ the Aspen 48M w/ Schneider. I will say this; cost per amp hour of 
storage  sucks w/ the Aquion batteries. Both my client and I feel, that the 
batteries, despite there size have very little capacity. The “30”%DOD, that I 
have the SIs set to start the Gen set, charges the stacks OK but one gets 
better performance from  charging w/slower solar source. The Aspen48M is ~ 
42X28X42” @563 AH of capacity, UnigyII 2000 Ah ~ 42x40x6’ tall. Batteries are 
defiantly temperature sensitive, operating should be ~ 60*. The set up w/ the 
SMA product, adds additional cost due to the required  BM200 AND  the Sunny 
Island Interface Device, and the SM100 unless you are buying theAspen48M which 
comes pre wired. (Aspen 48M which comes thru w/ the sensing module installed).  
It is quite helpful, if this is an off grid install due to the fact that the 
BM200 needs and when things go south Aquion can toggle the unit off site and 
help w/ configuration & upgrades, to be connected to the internet. This install 
also needs the correct firmware to be installed on the SI which when  was 
delivered, the firmware  would only load into the master then shut down the 
system. Had to reconfigure as 2 separate units, load the firm ware and then 
reconfigure for 2 phase. 
I have spoken to the manufacture re/ lack of capacity and was told that must be 
my loads…. NOT. 
I would suggest that despite their hype these are quite expensive and require 
quite a bit more of labor IF you are wiring the un sensed stacks. And there is 
definitely a learning curve if you are using the SI.
My own system and what I prefer to push IS the SMA SI w/ the SMA SBs (make sure 
that you get the TL22s as the newest SB is not compatible for “ AC coupling” in 
this configuration) w/ the Unigy II/MK line. (same battery) These have buss 
bars, stack vertically , the interlocking stacks is perfect for earthquake 
locations. AND are totally recyclable.
Pictures  of the SMA install & insights of battery installation available, 
contact me off line.  TUMP 
  
> On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld  > wrote:
> 
> Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny Island?  Space is not an issue for 
> this client.
> 
> Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation 
> Professional #IREC 10037
> California Solar Contractor License  #00833782  C46, D56, D31, C-7
> Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation
> 
> UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034
> CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG
> 
> Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider
> 
> 
> On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer"  > wrote:
> We had a customer request them but once we found out how many it would take, 
> he decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at such a 
> low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current. Some of our 
> other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that low voltage, 
> suggest asking your inverter manufacture too.
> 
> 
> On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake"  > wrote:
> Hello Wrenches,
> 
> I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion 
> Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an 
> in

Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[Tump]

I have dual Sunny Islands & dual SB 4000TL22US  w/ 20 stack on one and another 
site w/ the Aspen 48M w/ Schneider. I will say this; cost per amp hour of 
storage  sucks w/ the Aquion batteries. Both my client and I feel, that the 
batteries, despite there size have very little capacity. The “30”%DOD, that I 
have the SIs set to start the Gen set, charges the stacks OK but one gets 
better performance from  charging w/slower solar source. The Aspen48M is ~ 
42X28X42” @563 AH of capacity, UnigyII 2000 Ah ~ 42x40x6’ tall. Batteries are 
defiantly temperature sensitive, operating should be ~ 60*. The set up w/ the 
SMA product, adds additional cost due to the required  BM200 AND  the Sunny 
Island Interface Device, and the SM100 unless you are buying theAspen48M which 
comes pre wired. (Aspen 48M which comes thru w/ the sensing module installed).  
It is quite helpful, if this is an off grid install due to the fact that the 
BM200 needs and when things go south Aquion can toggle the unit off site and 
help w/ configuration & upgrades, to be connected to the internet. This install 
also needs the correct firmware to be installed on the SI which when  was 
delivered, the firmware  would only load into the master then shut down the 
system. Had to reconfigure as 2 separate units, load the firm ware and then 
reconfigure for 2 phase. 
I have spoken to the manufacture re/ lack of capacity and was told that must be 
my loads…. NOT. 
I would suggest that despite their hype these are quite expensive and require 
quite a bit more of labor IF you are wiring the un sensed stacks. And there is 
definitely a learning curve if you are using the SI.
My own system and what I prefer to push IS the SMA SI w/ the SMA SBs (make sure 
that you get the TL22s as the newest SB is not compatible for “ AC coupling” in 
this configuration) w/ the Unigy II/MK line. (same battery) These have buss 
bars, stack vertically , the interlocking stacks is perfect for earthquake 
locations. AND are totally recyclable.
Pictures  of the SMA install & insights of battery installation available, 
contact me off line.  TUMP 
  
> On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld  wrote:
> 
> Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny Island?  Space is not an issue for 
> this client.
> 
> Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation 
> Professional #IREC 10037
> California Solar Contractor License  #00833782  C46, D56, D31, C-7
> Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation
> 
> UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034
> CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG
> 
> Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider
> 
> 
> On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer"  > wrote:
> We had a customer request them but once we found out how many it would take, 
> he decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at such a 
> low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current. Some of our 
> other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that low voltage, 
> suggest asking your inverter manufacture too.
> 
> 
> On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake"  > wrote:
> Hello Wrenches,
> 
> I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion 
> Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an 
> inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience to 
> recommend them or warn against using them?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Drake
> 
> Drake Chamberlin
> Athens Electric LLC
> OH License 44810
> CO License 3773
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
> 740-448-7328 
> http://athens-electric.com/  
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[John Blittersdorf]

Drake,
I just did my first Aquion Install on an off-grid second home.  It is a
24V single VFX3524.  10 Aspen 24 volt stacks.  No one has been living there
since I installed it but at least the generator stopped running 2 or 3
times a day just to maintain the heating system. The generator hasn't run
at all (since the first charge) the 10 days since we installed it. I am
waiting for the owners to come up from NYC in early April to give it the
test.  It will get hit hard so we should know right away how it will
respond.  I have the system monitored on OpticsRE so we will be able to see
what is happening.  So far the batteries have stayed between 24.6 and
28.6.  I, too, am anxious to see what happens when we are running with the
inverter set for the lowest setting which I think is around 39 or 40
volts.  It will be great to have the OpticsRE control to play around with
the AGS settings to find the most efficient settings in regard to generator
run time.   Our #1 goal now is to minimize gen time.

John Blittersdorf
Solar Guru
Rob Stubbins Solar

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Martin Herzfeld 
wrote:

> Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny Island?  Space is not an issue
> for this client.
>
> Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation
> Professional #IREC 10037
> California Solar Contractor License  #00833782  C46, D56, D31, C-7
> Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation
>
> UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034
> CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG
>
> Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider
>
>
> On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer"  wrote:
>
> We had a customer request them but once we found out how many it would
> take, he decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at
> such a low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current.
> Some of our other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that
> low voltage, suggest asking your inverter manufacture too.
>
> On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake" 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Wrenches,
>>
>> I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion
>> Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an
>> inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience to
>> recommend them or warn against using them?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Drake
>>
>> Drake Chamberlin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified
>> Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[Martin Herzfeld]

Has anyone worked with them with a Sunny Island?  Space is not an issue for
this client.

Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation
Professional #IREC 10037
California Solar Contractor License  #00833782  C46, D56, D31, C-7
Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation

UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #C0068034
CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG

Registered NABCEP Continuing Education (CE) Provider


On Jul 20, 2016 2:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer"  wrote:

We had a customer request them but once we found out how many it would
take, he decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at
such a low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current.
Some of our other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that
low voltage, suggest asking your inverter manufacture too.

On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake" 
wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
>
> I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion
> Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an
> inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience to
> recommend them or warn against using them?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
> Drake Chamberlin
>
>
>
>
>
> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified
> Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[Jerry Shafer]

We had a customer request them but once we found out how many it would
take, he decided on the deka unigee instead. l dont like running my OB's at
such a low voltage as they seem to get hotter due to the higher current.
Some of our other product lines don't even reccomend aquions due to that
low voltage, suggest asking your inverter manufacture too.

On Jul 20, 2016 10:52 AM, "Drake" 
wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
>
> I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of Aquion
> Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure how well an
> inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone have experience to
> recommend them or warn against using them?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
> Drake Chamberlin
>
>
>
>
>
> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified
> Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/
>
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[RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[Drake]

Hello Wrenches,

I have a client who is going to take the plunge and buy a set of 
Aquion Batteries. They look pretty good on paper, but I'm not sure 
how well an inverter would function at the 40 V minimum. Does anyone 
have experience to recommend them or warn against using them?


Thanks,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[Michael Welch]

Hi folks. Tim Wood of Aquion asked me to post this on his
behalf.

Early versions of the Aquion battery had substantially lower continuous
and peak power ratings.  Very few made their way out into the field
however some did and we believe the concerns expressed on the board are
related to those early models.
Please see below for a comparison of continuous/peak power ratings for
early and current versions of the Aquion battery.  For example,
installing Qty (12) S30 batteries in an offgrid setting would allow for a
continuous power draw of 12x680W = 8.16KW with a peak power (several
minute) draw of 12x800W = 9.6KW.  This is near the max capacity of
many of the common offgrid inverters so unlikely the battery wouuld power
limit the user.


Tim Wood
Director of Sales
Phone: 602.296.7507 | Mobile: 602.448.8005
5515 East Sandra Terrace, Scottsdale, AZ  85254

www.aquionenergy.com 

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[RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[William Dorsett]

Our utility wanted to add a new capacity and demand charge to all solar
customers' bills. And the new California Public Utilities Commission
decision on net metering included a mandate for new solar installs to join
Time of Use pricing by 2019. This seems to be the trend that many grid
connected PV installers are going to have to adapt to. While this version of
Aquion may not handle surges, we might all benefit by adapting demand side
hardware like the Energy Sentry
http://energysentry.com/PP-residential-controllers.php to change the shapes
and timing of our loads. Whether on or off grid, this might be a value-added
product we could offer our customers and possibly make new batteries more
compatible.

 

Bill Dorsett

Manhattan, KS  66502

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[billbrooks7]

Dan,

 

I concur with your basic assessment. After listening to an Aquion presentation, 
and reviewing the operating curves, this battery has a very narrow application. 

 

Most off-grid houses these days have significant surge loads. That is why we 
spend so much time and effort making sure our inverter is properly rated for 
the worst-case surges. Most batteries are relied upon, not just for energy 
storage, which Aquion appears to deliver, but we also must have significant 
surge power. Aquion essentially has no surge capability.

 

If you have an application where a non-surge inverter will work, then you might 
have an Aquion application. Otherwise, stay away from Aquion until they develop 
a concept that allows surges.

 

Think of the Aquion battery like a fuel cell. Fuel cells are notoriously poor 
at surges.

 

Bill.

 

Bill Brooks, PE

Principal

Brooks Engineering

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Dan Fink
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2016 10:52 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

 

I second Larry's concerns about Aquion's SOC/voltage curves and tripping LVD at 
only 40% DOD with standard PV equipment, tied in with not being able to handle 
high discharge C-rates and surge loads. I did some math on running a typical 
off-grid home with a well pump on Aquions, and it wasn't pretty, but I may not 
have done the math right. Very interested to hear personal experience on 
off-grid homes with these batteries. 

 

 I was starting to envision applications for remote MET tower, repeater tower 
etc applications with low discharge C-rates and high charging C-rates, and then 
saw Aquions lowest operation temperature of -5C, 23 F. That's considered a 
"heat wave" during certain times of year in many areas, including here in sunny 
Colorado. In these applications the batteries are NOT in a heated room, instead 
an outdoor enclosure at the base of a tower.

 

AGMs are serving us here just fine on these sorts of esoteric installations, 
and they have no problem with -29C and lower when kept at high SOC. And, cheap, 
easy to replace, and giving us many years of life. The ROI math on the Aquions 
compared to AGM is not adding up for me on these applications.

 

My only experience with Aquion was their class at the NABCEP conference last 
year. 

 

Any ground truth experience and stories on Aquions and other similar 
technologies appreciated here also.

 

Best regards;




Dan Fink

Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute

IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 

~ PV Installation Professional

~ Small Wind Installer

Executive Director, Buckville Energy

NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™
  970.672.4342


 

 

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com> > wrote:

I too am interested in anyone that has installed these. I had some concerns 
back on Nov 10, 2014. Here is a copy/past from that conversation:

 

Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge curve way 
outside that of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I can't see how this 
technology could be scaled to RE applications without wasting much of the 
capacity. From what I see, only about 40% could be used before LVD.

 

And this:

The Aquion battery claims their 2.4kWh, 48 volt stack operates from 59 to 30 
volts. Many inverters have a LBCO of 1.75 Vpc (42 volts). Depending on voltage 
sag, that means about half of the capacity of the Aquion battery can't be used. 
Even if the outback can operate down to 1.5 Vpc, you are still not able to use 
the full capacity of the battery unless your load is less than 800 Watts. 

I have reviewed their technical presentation and it looks to me like the 
capacity simply can't be used in the off grid environment. If you can't use it, 
why do they rate it at 2.4kWh? BTW, the Voltage vs.Energy chart on the spec 
sheet does not match the first chart I posted.

 

 

 

 



 

 

On Jan 29, 2016, at 7:30 AM, Chris Schaefer mailto:ch...@solarandwindfx.com> > wrote:

 

To All,

Great insight on the lithium movement. I do am looking for anyone 
dealing with the new Aquion batteries. I’ve got a couple of potential clients 
that have inquired about them. Saw them at a NABCEP training session last 
spring and while the idea is moving I wasn’t impressed. Perhaps it’s time to 
start a new thread, “Aquion batteries”.

 

Thanks,

Christopher

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of d...@energysolarnow.com <mailto:d...@energysolarnow.com> 
Sent: Friday, 29 January, 2016 00:49
To: Dan Fink
Cc: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries

 

Thanks for sharing your experience with these batteries, Dan.

I have s

Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[Ray Walters]

That new chart is for a single block, but we would want the M100 or M110 
which is 12 of those S30 blocks connected together (580 AH @ 20 hr 
rate).  I haven't tried them, but I penciled out the ROI and at 3000 
cycles they stand up well against other lead acid batteries. 40 v is 
low, but I believe most inverters can be set to LVD at 40.

Magnum for instance can go as low as 36 v on a 48 v  nom. setup.
I agree with Dan that the minimum temp is a problem for many remote 
applications.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 1/29/2016 11:52 AM, Dan Fink wrote:
I second Larry's concerns about Aquion's SOC/voltage curves and 
tripping LVD at only 40% DOD with standard PV equipment, tied in with 
not being able to handle high discharge C-rates and surge loads. I did 
some math on running a typical off-grid home with a well pump on 
Aquions, and it wasn't pretty, but I may not have done the math right. 
Very interested to hear personal experience on off-grid homes with 
these batteries.


 I was starting to envision applications for remote MET tower, 
repeater tower etc applications with low discharge C-rates and high 
charging C-rates, and then saw Aquions lowest operation temperature of 
-5C, 23 F. That's considered a "heat wave" during certain times of 
year in many areas, including here in sunny Colorado. In these 
applications the batteries are NOT in a heated room, instead an 
outdoor enclosure at the base of a tower.


AGMs are serving us here just fine on these sorts of esoteric 
installations, and they have no problem with -29C and lower when kept 
at high SOC. And, cheap, easy to replace, and giving us many years of 
life. The ROI math on the Aquions compared to AGM is not adding up for 
me on these applications.


My only experience with Aquion was their class at the NABCEP 
conference last year.


Any ground truth experience and stories on Aquions and other similar 
technologies appreciated here also.


Best regards;

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342 


On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com>> wrote:


I too am interested in anyone that has installed these. I had some
concerns back on Nov 10, 2014. Here is a copy/past from that
conversation:

Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge
curve way outside that of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I
can't see how this technology could be scaled to RE applications
without wasting much of the capacity. From what I see, only about
40% could be used before LVD.

And this:
The Aquion battery claims their 2.4kWh, 48 volt stack operates
from 59 to 30 volts. Many inverters have a LBCO of 1.75 Vpc (42
volts). Depending on voltage sag, that means about half of the
capacity of the Aquion battery can't be used. Even if the outback
can operate down to 1.5 Vpc, you are still not able to use the
full capacity of the battery unless your load is less than 800 Watts.

I have reviewed their technical presentation and it looks to me
like the capacity simply can't be used in the off grid
environment. If you can't use it, why do they rate it at 2.4kWh?
BTW, the Voltage vs.Energy chart on the spec sheet does not match
the first chart I posted.







On Jan 29, 2016, at 7:30 AM, Chris Schaefer
mailto:ch...@solarandwindfx.com>> wrote:

To All,
Great insight on the lithium movement. I do am looking for anyone
dealing with the new Aquion batteries. I’ve got a couple of
potential clients that have inquired about them. Saw them at a
NABCEP training session last spring and while the idea is moving I
wasn’t impressed. Perhaps it’s time to start a new thread, “Aquion
batteries”.
Thanks,
Christopher
*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of
*d...@energysolarnow.com 
*Sent:* Friday, 29 January, 2016 00:49
*To:* Dan Fink
*Cc:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of
Powerwall Batteries
Thanks for sharing your experience with these batteries, Dan.
I have similar SOC issues with an off-grid customer who has the
Aquion Hybrid Ion batteries.
It has difficulty reaching full charge from solar, requiring the
genny to kick on each morning even in the summer.
This is even worse in cold winter weather.
Your explanation of the change in Peukert's exponent above 80% SOC
with NiFe batteries sounds like what is happening here as well.
Do you have any experience with Aquion

Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Thanks Dana. The new curves don’t look much better. Look at the space between 
the curves and realize that they are only 2A load difference. If we extrapolate 
to 17 amps the capacity will be greatly reduced. They need to show what the 
voltage sag is under full 680 Watt load. 

Has anyone actually installed Aquion batteries?


Larry

On Jan 29, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Dana  wrote:

The set of curves below is a first generation for Aquion.
Attached is a more current set FYI.
 

Dana Orzel
Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
E - d...@solarwork.com  - Web - solarwork.com
O - 970.626.5253  C - 208.721.7003
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" 
P Please consider the environment before printing this email.
 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[Dan Fink]

I second Larry's concerns about Aquion's SOC/voltage curves and tripping
LVD at only 40% DOD with standard PV equipment, tied in with not being able
to handle high discharge C-rates and surge loads. I did some math on
running a typical off-grid home with a well pump on Aquions, and it wasn't
pretty, but I may not have done the math right. Very interested to hear
personal experience on off-grid homes with these batteries.

 I was starting to envision applications for remote MET tower, repeater
tower etc applications with low discharge C-rates and high charging
C-rates, and then saw Aquions lowest operation temperature of -5C, 23 F.
That's considered a "heat wave" during certain times of year in many areas,
including here in sunny Colorado. In these applications the batteries are
NOT in a heated room, instead an outdoor enclosure at the base of a tower.

AGMs are serving us here just fine on these sorts of esoteric
installations, and they have no problem with -29C and lower when kept at
high SOC. And, cheap, easy to replace, and giving us many years of life.
The ROI math on the Aquions compared to AGM is not adding up for me on
these applications.

My only experience with Aquion was their class at the NABCEP conference
last year.

Any ground truth experience and stories on Aquions and other similar
technologies appreciated here also.

Best regards;

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342



On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems <
la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:

> I too am interested in anyone that has installed these. I had some
> concerns back on Nov 10, 2014. Here is a copy/past from that conversation:
>
> Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge curve
> way outside that of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I can't see how
> this technology could be scaled to RE applications without wasting much of
> the capacity. From what I see, only about 40% could be used before LVD.
>
> And this:
> The Aquion battery claims their 2.4kWh, 48 volt stack operates from 59 to
> 30 volts. Many inverters have a LBCO of 1.75 Vpc (42 volts). Depending on
> voltage sag, that means about half of the capacity of the Aquion battery
> can't be used. Even if the outback can operate down to 1.5 Vpc, you are
> still not able to use the full capacity of the battery unless your load is
> less than 800 Watts.
>
> I have reviewed their technical presentation and it looks to me like the
> capacity simply can't be used in the off grid environment. If you can't use
> it, why do they rate it at 2.4kWh? BTW, the Voltage vs.Energy chart on the
> spec sheet does not match the first chart I posted.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 29, 2016, at 7:30 AM, Chris Schaefer 
> wrote:
>
> To All,
> Great insight on the lithium movement. I do am looking for
> anyone dealing with the new Aquion batteries. I’ve got a couple of
> potential clients that have inquired about them. Saw them at a NABCEP
> training session last spring and while the idea is moving I wasn’t
> impressed. Perhaps it’s time to start a new thread, “Aquion batteries”.
>
> Thanks,
> Christopher
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *
> d...@energysolarnow.com
> *Sent:* Friday, 29 January, 2016 00:49
> *To:* Dan Fink
> *Cc:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall
> Batteries
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience with these batteries, Dan.
> I have similar SOC issues with an off-grid customer who has the Aquion
> Hybrid Ion batteries.
> It has difficulty reaching full charge from solar, requiring the genny to
> kick on each morning even in the summer.
> This is even worse in cold winter weather.
> Your explanation of the change in Peukert's exponent above 80% SOC with
> NiFe batteries sounds like what is happening here as well.
> Do you have any experience with Aquion batteries that you can share?
>
> Thanks
> Don Barch
> Energy Solar
> d...@energysolarnow.com
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries, Was LiFePO4

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches
We were looking at these “Aquion batteries” but once we compared the power,
voltage operating range and storage of the Unigy vs the Aquion we went with
the Unigy brand the volt range worked normally no changes to the LBCO
setings. I have Unigy applications going back close to 15 years with good
results so far. If there are customers out there that want to use any new
to the market product you may want to consider a disclaimer if there is a
problem or the company goes away just so your not holding the bag. I have
seen a few local contractors using the Aquion products but no results yet.
Jerry

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 4:30 AM, Chris Schaefer 
wrote:

> To All,
>
> Great insight on the lithium movement. I do am looking for
> anyone dealing with the new Aquion batteries. I’ve got a couple of
> potential clients that have inquired about them. Saw them at a NABCEP
> training session last spring and while the idea is moving I wasn’t
> impressed. Perhaps it’s time to start a new thread, “Aquion batteries”.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *d...@energysolarnow.com
> *Sent:* Friday, 29 January, 2016 00:49
> *To:* Dan Fink
> *Cc:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall
> Batteries
>
>
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience with these batteries, Dan.
>
> I have similar SOC issues with an off-grid customer who has the Aquion
> Hybrid Ion batteries.
>
> It has difficulty reaching full charge from solar, requiring the genny to
> kick on each morning even in the summer.
>
> This is even worse in cold winter weather.
>
> Your explanation of the change in Peukert's exponent above 80% SOC with
> NiFe batteries sounds like what is happening here as well.
>
> Do you have any experience with Aquion batteries that you can share?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Don Barch
>
> Energy Solar
>
> d...@energysolarnow.com
>
>
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 15:51:26 -0700
> From: Dan Fink 
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall
> Batteries
> Message-ID:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hello Mark;
> My NiFes went in last March, I'm almost at a year living with them off the
> grid.
> To avoid writing a novel here I'll group my comments into Oddities,
> Advantages and Disadvantages.
>
> Advantages:
> ~ at least 25 year lifespan
> ~ 10 year warranty
> ~ Can add more parallel strings at any time/age, just drain and replace
> electrolyte of old batteries
> ~ 80% depth of discharge no problem, so can size smaller amp-hour capacity
>
> Oddities:
> ~ alkaline electrolyte, neutralize spills and clean tops with white vinegar
> ~ Specific gravity of electrolyte does not change with state of charge so a
> hydrometer is useless
> ~ Charge / discharge efficiency changes greatly with state of charge.
> Sometimes my Magnum ME-BMK amp hour meter matches the Midnite Whizbang Jr
> exactly, sometimes they are way off from each other. For ground truth, the
> state of charge vs. voltage curve from the battery manufacturer seems right
> on, not counting false readings when the batteries are not at rest for a
> couple hours.
> ~ Fooling PV MPPT charge controllers into dealing with NiFes involves
> setting a very long and high Absorb voltage
> ~ Charge efficiency is great up to 80% state of charge, but after that
> drops way off. Above 80% SOC these batteries want to see 1.65v per cell to
> really fill up. No problem for modern MPPT PV controllers, but-
> ~ Some inverter / chargers (Magnum here) freak out and shut down at 1.6v
> per cell, so the solution from the battery manufacturer is-
> ~ Run fewer cells during times of year when charging is frequent from the
> generator, put the extra cells back in the string during times of year when
> the charging is mostly PV. Sitting uncharged does not damage these "extra"
> cells.
> ~ So I am running a 10.8v battery bank right now, will bring it back to 12v
> this spring. No big deal, but does affect inverter surge capacity. Would
> not be as much of a problem at 24v or 48v.
> ~
>
> Disadvantages:
> ~ The high Absorb voltage to get that last 20% SOC efficiently bubbles
> through a lot of distilled water. My schedule is 1-2 gallons every 40 days,
> and the company sends a reminder email at that interval.
> ~ The bubbling gets the tops dirty fast. A cleaning every 40 days is about
> right.
> ~ High cost
> ~ Twiddling with string voltages semi-annually. This would not be an issue
> if most charging is from PV.
>
> My thoughts:
> My overall impression of being married to NiFes way off the grid has so far
> been favorable.In a grid standby situation, I think string voltage
> twiddling would be a non-issue, who cares about the last 20% of SOC charge
> efficiency in that situation? Off the grid with daily cycling, generator
> use, etc, I would not consider these to be batteries for off-gri

Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

I too am interested in anyone that has installed these. I had some concerns 
back on Nov 10, 2014. Here is a copy/past from that conversation:

Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge curve way 
outside that of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I can't see how this 
technology could be scaled to RE applications without wasting much of the 
capacity. From what I see, only about 40% could be used before LVD.

And this:
The Aquion battery claims their 2.4kWh, 48 volt stack operates from 59 to 30 
volts. Many inverters have a LBCO of 1.75 Vpc (42 volts). Depending on voltage 
sag, that means about half of the capacity of the Aquion battery can't be used. 
Even if the outback can operate down to 1.5 Vpc, you are still not able to use 
the full capacity of the battery unless your load is less than 800 Watts. 

I have reviewed their technical presentation and it looks to me like the 
capacity simply can't be used in the off grid environment. If you can't use it, 
why do they rate it at 2.4kWh? BTW, the Voltage vs.Energy chart on the spec 
sheet does not match the first chart I posted.







On Jan 29, 2016, at 7:30 AM, Chris Schaefer  wrote:

To All,
Great insight on the lithium movement. I do am looking for anyone 
dealing with the new Aquion batteries. I’ve got a couple of potential clients 
that have inquired about them. Saw them at a NABCEP training session last 
spring and while the idea is moving I wasn’t impressed. Perhaps it’s time to 
start a new thread, “Aquion batteries”.
 
Thanks,
Christopher
 
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of d...@energysolarnow.com
Sent: Friday, 29 January, 2016 00:49
To: Dan Fink
Cc: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries
 
Thanks for sharing your experience with these batteries, Dan.
I have similar SOC issues with an off-grid customer who has the Aquion Hybrid 
Ion batteries.
It has difficulty reaching full charge from solar, requiring the genny to kick 
on each morning even in the summer.
This is even worse in cold winter weather.
Your explanation of the change in Peukert's exponent above 80% SOC with NiFe 
batteries sounds like what is happening here as well.
Do you have any experience with Aquion batteries that you can share?
 
Thanks
Don Barch 
Energy Solar
d...@energysolarnow.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries, Was LiFePO4

[Chris Schaefer]

To All,

Great insight on the lithium movement. I do am looking for anyone 
dealing with the new Aquion batteries. I’ve got a couple of potential clients 
that have inquired about them. Saw them at a NABCEP training session last 
spring and while the idea is moving I wasn’t impressed. Perhaps it’s time to 
start a new thread, “Aquion batteries”.

 

Thanks,

Christopher

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of d...@energysolarnow.com
Sent: Friday, 29 January, 2016 00:49
To: Dan Fink
Cc: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries

 

Thanks for sharing your experience with these batteries, Dan.

I have similar SOC issues with an off-grid customer who has the Aquion Hybrid 
Ion batteries.

It has difficulty reaching full charge from solar, requiring the genny to kick 
on each morning even in the summer.

This is even worse in cold winter weather.

Your explanation of the change in Peukert's exponent above 80% SOC with NiFe 
batteries sounds like what is happening here as well. 

Do you have any experience with Aquion batteries that you can share?

 

Thanks

Don Barch 

Energy Solar

d...@energysolarnow.com

 

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 15:51:26 -0700
From: Dan Fink 
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall
Batteries
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hello Mark;
My NiFes went in last March, I'm almost at a year living with them off the
grid.
To avoid writing a novel here I'll group my comments into Oddities,
Advantages and Disadvantages.

Advantages:
~ at least 25 year lifespan
~ 10 year warranty
~ Can add more parallel strings at any time/age, just drain and replace
electrolyte of old batteries
~ 80% depth of discharge no problem, so can size smaller amp-hour capacity

Oddities:
~ alkaline electrolyte, neutralize spills and clean tops with white vinegar
~ Specific gravity of electrolyte does not change with state of charge so a
hydrometer is useless
~ Charge / discharge efficiency changes greatly with state of charge.
Sometimes my Magnum ME-BMK amp hour meter matches the Midnite Whizbang Jr
exactly, sometimes they are way off from each other. For ground truth, the
state of charge vs. voltage curve from the battery manufacturer seems right
on, not counting false readings when the batteries are not at rest for a
couple hours.
~ Fooling PV MPPT charge controllers into dealing with NiFes involves
setting a very long and high Absorb voltage
~ Charge efficiency is great up to 80% state of charge, but after that
drops way off. Above 80% SOC these batteries want to see 1.65v per cell to
really fill up. No problem for modern MPPT PV controllers, but-
~ Some inverter / chargers (Magnum here) freak out and shut down at 1.6v
per cell, so the solution from the battery manufacturer is-
~ Run fewer cells during times of year when charging is frequent from the
generator, put the extra cells back in the string during times of year when
the charging is mostly PV. Sitting uncharged does not damage these "extra"
cells.
~ So I am running a 10.8v battery bank right now, will bring it back to 12v
this spring. No big deal, but does affect inverter surge capacity. Would
not be as much of a problem at 24v or 48v.
~

Disadvantages:
~ The high Absorb voltage to get that last 20% SOC efficiently bubbles
through a lot of distilled water. My schedule is 1-2 gallons every 40 days,
and the company sends a reminder email at that interval.
~ The bubbling gets the tops dirty fast. A cleaning every 40 days is about
right.
~ High cost
~ Twiddling with string voltages semi-annually. This would not be an issue
if most charging is from PV.

My thoughts:
My overall impression of being married to NiFes way off the grid has so far
been favorable.In a grid standby situation, I think string voltage
twiddling would be a non-issue, who cares about the last 20% of SOC charge
efficiency in that situation? Off the grid with daily cycling, generator
use, etc, I would not consider these to be batteries for off-grid
beginners. But anyone who has been off grid for a few years with lead acid
batteries will immediately appreciate the advantages and only occasionally
curse the quirks of Nife.
Plans here: Increase my PV by about 30%. Cheap and easy, no more taking
cells in and out of the string, and less winter generator run time. Get 'em
to 80% on genny during tough snowbound times and let PV do the rest. Figure
out some Arduino solution for monitoring when Peukert's exponent changes
depending on SOC. Complain to inverter/charger manufacturers to make them
work better with NiFe.

Best regards;

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor? for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers?
970.672.4342

Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion batteries - batteries in general

[Greg]

Bill & Jerry,

Thanks for the updated intel on lead acid battery recycling.  I hope the 
Aquions turn out to be an awesome product.  If I ever get a set 
installed I'll report back : ).


Cheers,

Greg Egan
Remote Power Inc.
NABCEP Solar Installation Professional
Alaska #00106064 Journeyman Electrician

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion batteries - batteries in general

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches
California still does recycling of batteries they in city of industry and
recycle everything from the battery
Jerry
On Feb 17, 2015 1:37 PM, "Bill Hennessy"  wrote:

> Greg--I've attached a link to East Penn Manufacturing (aka Deka or MK
> Batteries) recycling brochure. They have the largest battery plant in the
> world and recycle 200 million pounds of lead and 11 million pounds of
> plastic a year in their battery production. We live near them and we're in
> an area littered with superfund sites, but their commitment to the
> environment is impressive. Maybe cuz they're privately held. I don't work
> for them or benefit financially from them.
>
>
> http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Recycling-Brochure-0103.pdf
>
> That said, Aquion is producing a battery without using lead. The price tag
> is much higher and the batteries come with only a two-year warranty. I
> haven't seen anything on their site as to how one could tell if a battery
> is underperforming. Our systems are almost always grid-tie with battery
> backup, so reduced maintenance and long shelf life are the drivers--agm or
> gel.
>
> With their ability to function with a partial state of charge, Aquions
> would do well in a distributed generation scenario and provide great
> support  for frequency and load managing. Imagine the net metering
> possibilities.
>
>
> Bill Hennessy
> Berks Solar, LLC
> 371 Centennial Rd
> Mertztown, PA 19539
>
> o 610 682 4300
> c 484 560 4666
> NABCEP certified installer
> PA contractor #44411
> www.berkssolar.com
>
>   ----------
>  *From:* Greg 
> *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2015 1:56 PM
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Aquion batteries - batteries in general
>
> Marco and all wrenches,
>
> Thanks for the cost /benefit comparison on batteries.  We need batteries
> that won't freeze easily.  Even if the cost was the same we'd need to
> know more about the Aquions before we could risk installing them in the
> North.
>
> I need a fact check from someone on Lead Acids:  Years ago I'd heard
> that lead acid batts sold in the US were built from 90+% recycled
> materials.  Supposedly there was somewhere in California that put them
> in a big mixer and busted them up.  Plastic floated to the top and was
> recycled, lead went to the bottom, also recycled. Electrolyte was also
> at least partially recycled.  If this is true it would make the lead
> acids relatively benign since no new smelting would be needed.  Any
> recent info/links on lead acid battery recycling in the US would be
> greatly appreciated
>
> I like lead acids.  There's a little booklet from New England Solar
> Electric called "BATTERY BOOK FOR YOUR PV HOME" that I give away with
> each set of batteries we sell.  It doesn't completely cure premature
> battery death from neglect but I think it helps a lot. They're
> inexpensive and if you buy them by the dozen they'll cut you a deal on
> them.
>
> Keep using your super powers for good!
>
> Greg Egan
> Remote Power Inc.
> NABCEP Solar Installation Professional
> Alaska #00106064 Journeyman Electrician
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion batteries - batteries in general

[Bill Hennessy]

Greg--I've attached a link to East Penn Manufacturing (aka Deka or MK 
Batteries) recycling brochure. They have the largest battery plant in the world 
and recycle 200 million pounds of lead and 11 million pounds of plastic a year 
in their battery production. We live near them and we're in an area littered 
with superfund sites, but their commitment to the environment is impressive. 
Maybe cuz they're privately held. I don't work for them or benefit financially 
from them.
http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Recycling-Brochure-0103.pdf
That said, Aquion is producing a battery without using lead. The price tag is 
much higher and the batteries come with only a two-year warranty. I haven't 
seen anything on their site as to how one could tell if a battery is 
underperforming. Our systems are almost always grid-tie with battery backup, so 
reduced maintenance and long shelf life are the drivers--agm or gel.
With their ability to function with a partial state of charge, Aquions would do 
well in a distributed generation scenario and provide great support  for 
frequency and load managing. Imagine the net metering possibilities.
 Bill Hennessy
Berks Solar, LLC
371 Centennial Rd
Mertztown, PA 19539

o 610 682 4300
c 484 560 4666
NABCEP certified installer
PA contractor #44411
www.berkssolar.com
  From: Greg 
 To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 1:56 PM
 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion batteries - batteries in general
   
Marco and all wrenches,

Thanks for the cost /benefit comparison on batteries.  We need batteries 
that won't freeze easily.  Even if the cost was the same we'd need to 
know more about the Aquions before we could risk installing them in the 
North.

I need a fact check from someone on Lead Acids:  Years ago I'd heard 
that lead acid batts sold in the US were built from 90+% recycled 
materials.  Supposedly there was somewhere in California that put them 
in a big mixer and busted them up.  Plastic floated to the top and was 
recycled, lead went to the bottom, also recycled. Electrolyte was also 
at least partially recycled.  If this is true it would make the lead 
acids relatively benign since no new smelting would be needed.  Any 
recent info/links on lead acid battery recycling in the US would be 
greatly appreciated

I like lead acids.  There's a little booklet from New England Solar 
Electric called "BATTERY BOOK FOR YOUR PV HOME" that I give away with 
each set of batteries we sell.  It doesn't completely cure premature 
battery death from neglect but I think it helps a lot. They're 
inexpensive and if you buy them by the dozen they'll cut you a deal on 
them.

Keep using your super powers for good!

Greg Egan
Remote Power Inc.
NABCEP Solar Installation Professional
Alaska #00106064 Journeyman Electrician
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[RE-wrenches] Aquion batteries - batteries in general

[Greg]

Marco and all wrenches,

Thanks for the cost /benefit comparison on batteries.  We need batteries 
that won't freeze easily.  Even if the cost was the same we'd need to 
know more about the Aquions before we could risk installing them in the 
North.


I need a fact check from someone on Lead Acids:  Years ago I'd heard 
that lead acid batts sold in the US were built from 90+% recycled 
materials.  Supposedly there was somewhere in California that put them 
in a big mixer and busted them up.  Plastic floated to the top and was 
recycled, lead went to the bottom, also recycled. Electrolyte was also 
at least partially recycled.  If this is true it would make the lead 
acids relatively benign since no new smelting would be needed.  Any 
recent info/links on lead acid battery recycling in the US would be 
greatly appreciated


I like lead acids.  There's a little booklet from New England Solar 
Electric called "BATTERY BOOK FOR YOUR PV HOME" that I give away with 
each set of batteries we sell.  It doesn't completely cure premature 
battery death from neglect but I think it helps a lot. They're 
inexpensive and if you buy them by the dozen they'll cut you a deal on 
them.


Keep using your super powers for good!

Greg Egan
Remote Power Inc.
NABCEP Solar Installation Professional
Alaska #00106064 Journeyman Electrician
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