Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware

[Tump]

Jay I too find this firmware issue questionable. there IS settings on this AGS 
& Inverter for disconnect using voltage AND or  hz.  Again voltage 110/55Hz is 
what I will usually start out with.These additional settings; cool down time 
and spin down time, I set to the lowest setting possible. This being said….. I 
would not be a bit surprised that some bonehead code writer had NO idea what Hz 
was when and IF he set this to 40 Hz.  Happy new year to all! TUMP
> On Dec 31, 2016, at 12:39 PM, jay  wrote:
> 
> HI Hugh,
> 
> Interesting problem your describe which I've not seen before.
> 
> I’m curious about your comments on Outback.  
> I’ve found them to be quite programable in regards to disconnecting from a 
> generator.  
> You can set voltage and cycles. Default comes in at 60 cycles which is 1 
> second and way too long.  
> Setting it down to around 10 cycles  works with every generator I’ve tried, 
> and from my measurements the inverter seems to be switching on cycles, not 
> voltage.
> But maybe I misunderstood what you were saying?
> 
> But I know in the old days before inverters got so programable ( or poorly 
> programed in the case of the new SW) that out here on the west coast we 
> installed a contactor which was controlled via either AGS or manual remote 
> start.  It shuts the AC off in a hard way yes, and you sure might get a light 
> flicker but you don’t get the voltage/Hz sag being a problem here.
> 
> And I’m not sure but seems to me that some of the older generators used to 
> come with an internal contactor that did this?
> But none that I’m seeing now do. 
> Maybe others can comment on that.
> 
> And finally I’m curious about how important the cool down period is.  
> How I set my generator run times, by the time its told to shut down its not 
> running all that hard, which shouldn’t be a problem.
> But again, I’ll defer to the genny experts here.
> 
> Happy new year 
> 
> jay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Dec 30, 2016, at 1:13 AM, Hugh Piggott > > wrote:
>> 
>> hi Lou,
>> 
>> I don’t wish to contradict this version of events but if true then it will 
>> make the inverter unsuitable for most generators.  Here is another scenario 
>> I have seen a few times that looks similar but can be fixed.
>> 
>> The inverter charges the battery etc. and decides to turn off the generator. 
>>  It disconnects.  It may or may not have its own “cool down” time for the 
>> generator.  It then tells the generator to stop.  At this point the 
>> generator control circuit may decide to run a further cool down period.  
>> Meantime incoming AC voltage is still visible to the inverter.  The inverter 
>> may then decide that it is obliged to connect to this running generator.  
>> After any chosen “warm up period” it may go ahead and synch with the running 
>> generator and start to draw power just before and during the point where 
>> fuel is shut off and it dies.  This causes power quality problems and errors 
>> in some inverters.  Maybe better firmware could fix this.  Victron inverters 
>> are designed to disconnect on a falling voltage every time, and they do so 
>> gracefully.  With SMA inverters and Outbacks it’s better avoided.
>> 
>> The best fix for this is to make sure that the generator does not have its 
>> own cool down period.  If you can access and edit this parameter in the 
>> generator this is best.  Another fix is to set a longer warmup time in the 
>> inverter software but this can cause issues where the generator is being 
>> started to meet a high load.  In the case of an SMA inverter you can get a 
>> fix to it using “genman mode”.
>> 
>> I just wonder if you have witnessed the process and checked whether the 
>> generator’s own built-in cool down period could be the cause.
>> 
>> cheers
>> Hugh
>> 
>>> On 30 Dec 2016, at 00:43, Lou Russo >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks to all for the input and suggestions, it is much appreciated. Just 
>>> to be clear about the situation, the inverter has already made the AC 
>>> transfer, which goes smoothly. The AC IN light is off. At this point the 
>>> generator is unloaded and there is no battery charging happening. The 
>>> inverter is carrying the loads.  From what Schnieder tells me is that the 
>>> software is telling the inverter to follow the Hertz of the generator until 
>>> it's below 40 Hertz. 
>>> 
>>> I do believe that manual start is best as it keeps the user in tune with 
>>> system. It is what I do at my own home. Unfortunately most clients want the 
>>> autostart and don't want to think about it. This is typically not deal 
>>> breaker for me and I will push a client only so far on it. In this 
>>> particular situation the system is 500 ft away from the home. So the 
>>> autostart is mandatory. 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> _
> 
> ___
> List sponsored 

[RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware

[jay]

HI Hugh,

Interesting problem your describe which I've not seen before.

I’m curious about your comments on Outback.  
I’ve found them to be quite programable in regards to disconnecting from a 
generator.  
You can set voltage and cycles. Default comes in at 60 cycles which is 1 second 
and way too long.  
Setting it down to around 10 cycles  works with every generator I’ve tried, and 
from my measurements the inverter seems to be switching on cycles, not voltage.
But maybe I misunderstood what you were saying?

But I know in the old days before inverters got so programable ( or poorly 
programed in the case of the new SW) that out here on the west coast we 
installed a contactor which was controlled via either AGS or manual remote 
start.  It shuts the AC off in a hard way yes, and you sure might get a light 
flicker but you don’t get the voltage/Hz sag being a problem here.

And I’m not sure but seems to me that some of the older generators used to come 
with an internal contactor that did this?
But none that I’m seeing now do. 
Maybe others can comment on that.

And finally I’m curious about how important the cool down period is.  
How I set my generator run times, by the time its told to shut down its not 
running all that hard, which shouldn’t be a problem.
But again, I’ll defer to the genny experts here.

Happy new year 

jay







> On Dec 30, 2016, at 1:13 AM, Hugh Piggott  wrote:
> 
> hi Lou,
> 
> I don’t wish to contradict this version of events but if true then it will 
> make the inverter unsuitable for most generators.  Here is another scenario I 
> have seen a few times that looks similar but can be fixed.
> 
> The inverter charges the battery etc. and decides to turn off the generator.  
> It disconnects.  It may or may not have its own “cool down” time for the 
> generator.  It then tells the generator to stop.  At this point the generator 
> control circuit may decide to run a further cool down period.  Meantime 
> incoming AC voltage is still visible to the inverter.  The inverter may then 
> decide that it is obliged to connect to this running generator.  After any 
> chosen “warm up period” it may go ahead and synch with the running generator 
> and start to draw power just before and during the point where fuel is shut 
> off and it dies.  This causes power quality problems and errors in some 
> inverters.  Maybe better firmware could fix this.  Victron inverters are 
> designed to disconnect on a falling voltage every time, and they do so 
> gracefully.  With SMA inverters and Outbacks it’s better avoided.
> 
> The best fix for this is to make sure that the generator does not have its 
> own cool down period.  If you can access and edit this parameter in the 
> generator this is best.  Another fix is to set a longer warmup time in the 
> inverter software but this can cause issues where the generator is being 
> started to meet a high load.  In the case of an SMA inverter you can get a 
> fix to it using “genman mode”.
> 
> I just wonder if you have witnessed the process and checked whether the 
> generator’s own built-in cool down period could be the cause.
> 
> cheers
> Hugh
> 
>> On 30 Dec 2016, at 00:43, Lou Russo > > wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks to all for the input and suggestions, it is much appreciated. Just to 
>> be clear about the situation, the inverter has already made the AC transfer, 
>> which goes smoothly. The AC IN light is off. At this point the generator is 
>> unloaded and there is no battery charging happening. The inverter is 
>> carrying the loads.  From what Schnieder tells me is that the software is 
>> telling the inverter to follow the Hertz of the generator until it's below 
>> 40 Hertz. 
>> 
>> I do believe that manual start is best as it keeps the user in tune with 
>> system. It is what I do at my own home. Unfortunately most clients want the 
>> autostart and don't want to think about it. This is typically not deal 
>> breaker for me and I will push a client only so far on it. In this 
>> particular situation the system is 500 ft away from the home. So the 
>> autostart is mandatory. 
>> 
>> 
> 
> _

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware

[Hugh Piggott]

hi Lou,

I don’t wish to contradict this version of events but if true then it will make 
the inverter unsuitable for most generators.  Here is another scenario I have 
seen a few times that looks similar but can be fixed.

The inverter charges the battery etc. and decides to turn off the generator.  
It disconnects.  It may or may not have its own “cool down” time for the 
generator.  It then tells the generator to stop.  At this point the generator 
control circuit may decide to run a further cool down period.  Meantime 
incoming AC voltage is still visible to the inverter.  The inverter may then 
decide that it is obliged to connect to this running generator.  After any 
chosen “warm up period” it may go ahead and synch with the running generator 
and start to draw power just before and during the point where fuel is shut off 
and it dies.  This causes power quality problems and errors in some inverters.  
Maybe better firmware could fix this.  Victron inverters are designed to 
disconnect on a falling voltage every time, and they do so gracefully.  With 
SMA inverters and Outbacks it’s better avoided.

The best fix for this is to make sure that the generator does not have its own 
cool down period.  If you can access and edit this parameter in the generator 
this is best.  Another fix is to set a longer warmup time in the inverter 
software but this can cause issues where the generator is being started to meet 
a high load.  In the case of an SMA inverter you can get a fix to it using 
“genman mode”.

I just wonder if you have witnessed the process and checked whether the 
generator’s own built-in cool down period could be the cause.

cheers
Hugh

> On 30 Dec 2016, at 00:43, Lou Russo  wrote:
> 
> Thanks to all for the input and suggestions, it is much appreciated. Just to 
> be clear about the situation, the inverter has already made the AC transfer, 
> which goes smoothly. The AC IN light is off. At this point the generator is 
> unloaded and there is no battery charging happening. The inverter is carrying 
> the loads.  From what Schnieder tells me is that the software is telling the 
> inverter to follow the Hertz of the generator until it's below 40 Hertz. 
> 
> I do believe that manual start is best as it keeps the user in tune with 
> system. It is what I do at my own home. Unfortunately most clients want the 
> autostart and don't want to think about it. This is typically not deal 
> breaker for me and I will push a client only so far on it. In this particular 
> situation the system is 500 ft away from the home. So the autostart is 
> mandatory. 
> 
> 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware

[Lou Russo]

Thanks to all for the input and suggestions, it is much appreciated. Just
to be clear about the situation, the inverter has already made the AC
transfer, which goes smoothly. The AC IN light is off. At this point the
generator is unloaded and there is no battery charging happening. The
inverter is carrying the loads.  From what Schnieder tells me is that the
software is telling the inverter to follow the Hertz of the generator until
it's below 40 Hertz.

I do believe that manual start is best as it keeps the user in tune with
system. It is what I do at my own home. Unfortunately most clients want the
autostart and don't want to think about it. This is typically not deal
breaker for me and I will push a client only so far on it. In this
particular situation the system is 500 ft away from the home. So the
autostart is mandatory.

And Allan do you happen to know what the firmware version of the inverters
and AGS units are that you recently installed?

Oh and by the way I have come to find out that Sandra no longer works
there.

Thanks again for all the help

On Dec 29, 2016 1:01 PM, "Allan Sindelar"  wrote:

Lou,
I would add that this problem could be solved by removing any auto gen
start function and controlling the generator manually. Then the default
start/stop procedure is user-controlled: check monitor/start gennie/check
operation; when done, turn off charging at SCP/cool down/shut off gennie.
Voila! no low-hertz glitches. I have long discouraged auto-start in
residential off grid systems, recommending instead user involvement and
manual operation of the gennie.

I have installed several SW Conext systems, so far without a single issue
after commissioning. I applaud Schneider's efforts to turn the wreckage
that they paid Xantrex way too much for into a decent product line with
good support.
Allan

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 <(505)%20780-2738> cell*


On 12/29/2016 1:35 PM, Ray Walters wrote:

I've seen  similar weirdness with many systems of various brands.  The
issue seems to be having the generator shutting down while still under
load, with as you noted, the frequency and voltage dropping, and the
inverter not transferring quick enough.
Basically I suggest to my customers having similar problems to:
A) First, wait for the charge rate to come down, then
B) shut down any other large loads, (ie wait for the water pump to finish
pumping) then
C) manually switch the generator Breaker off,  which allows a cleaner,
quicker transfer.

Some generators have a cool down period after being signaled to shut off,
which solves the problem, too.  Having auto control just shut down the
generator hard under load is always going to be rough. I wouldn't blame it
all on Schneider, although it sounds like in your case the Conext is
extending the low frequency time period, and making it even worse.
A relay might fix the problem too: first have the relay transfer the loads,
and then send the signal to shut down the generator after.

Besides the firmware issue, I think you're noticing this problem more,
because of all the new arc fault junk in the house.  IMHO, arc fault
shouldn't even be required on off grid systems with less than 70 amps
capacity.  Unless they've recently changed the UL testing, arc fault
breakers need a min of 70 amp to even work properly.  Of course they're
annoyingly easy to trip when the frequency and voltage get weird, so off
grid all those arc fault breakers are Not going to trip when they should,
but Will trip when they shouldn't.  More waste of time and money off grid.
Again, just my opinion.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 <(303)%20505-8760>

On 12/29/2016 12:27 PM, Lou Russo wrote:

Wrenches,

I recently installed a Schneider Conext SW 4024, Schnieder's DC
Distribution panel, AC Distribution panel, SCP, and the AGS. It was to be a
straightforward inverter swap, Xantrex 4024 to the Conext SW setup. The
actual installation went fine. I did switch over the house wiring from 120
to 240  as well as the diesel genset.

After a steep learning curve with the client all seemed well. 1 week later
she called and says the power behaves oddly as the generator is shutting
down. Symptoms are some arc fault breakers trip and the compressor on her
fridge sounds like its bogging down. I make the 45 minute drive out and
started my search. This is a site with 3 buildings on 3 acres. I double
checked all my wiring at the inverter, then moved onto the various
buildings checking for redundant neutral to grounds, proper bonding, etc…
Surprisingly although not great workmanship everything is where it is
supposed to be. I decided to give the AC input on the inverter it's own
dedicated neutral as at this 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware

[Allan Sindelar]

Lou,
I would add that this problem could be solved by removing any auto gen 
start function and controlling the generator manually. Then the default 
start/stop procedure is user-controlled: check monitor/start 
gennie/check operation; when done, turn off charging at SCP/cool 
down/shut off gennie. Voila! no low-hertz glitches. I have long 
discouraged auto-start in residential off grid systems, recommending 
instead user involvement and manual operation of the gennie.


I have installed several SW Conext systems, so far without a single 
issue after commissioning. I applaud Schneider's efforts to turn the 
wreckage that they paid Xantrex way too much for into a decent product 
line with good support.

Allan

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

**

On 12/29/2016 1:35 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
I've seen  similar weirdness with many systems of various brands. The 
issue seems to be having the generator shutting down while still under 
load, with as you noted, the frequency and voltage dropping, and the 
inverter not transferring quick enough.

Basically I suggest to my customers having similar problems to:
A) First, wait for the charge rate to come down, then
B) shut down any other large loads, (ie wait for the water pump to 
finish pumping) then
C) manually switch the generator Breaker off,  which allows a cleaner, 
quicker transfer.


Some generators have a cool down period after being signaled to shut 
off, which solves the problem, too.  Having auto control just shut 
down the generator hard under load is always going to be rough. I 
wouldn't blame it all on Schneider, although it sounds like in your 
case the Conext is extending the low frequency time period, and making 
it even worse.
A relay might fix the problem too: first have the relay transfer the 
loads, and then send the signal to shut down the generator after.


Besides the firmware issue, I think you're noticing this problem more, 
because of all the new arc fault junk in the house.  IMHO, arc fault 
shouldn't even be required on off grid systems with less than 70 amps 
capacity.  Unless they've recently changed the UL testing, arc fault 
breakers need a min of 70 amp to even work properly.  Of course 
they're annoyingly easy to trip when the frequency and voltage get 
weird, so off grid all those arc fault breakers are Not going to trip 
when they should, but Will trip when they shouldn't.  More waste of 
time and money off grid. Again, just my opinion.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 12/29/2016 12:27 PM, Lou Russo wrote:

Wrenches,

I recently installed a Schneider Conext SW 4024, Schnieder's DC 
Distribution panel, AC Distribution panel, SCP, and the AGS. It was 
to be a straightforward inverter swap, Xantrex 4024 to the Conext SW 
setup. The actual installation went fine. I did switch over the house 
wiring from 120 to 240  as well as the diesel genset.


After a steep learning curve with the client all seemed well. 1 week 
later she called and says the power behaves oddly as the generator is 
shutting down. Symptoms are some arc fault breakers trip and the 
compressor on her fridge sounds like its bogging down. I make the 45 
minute drive out and started my search. This is a site with 3 
buildings on 3 acres. I double checked all my wiring at the inverter, 
then moved onto the various buildings checking for redundant neutral 
to grounds, proper bonding, etc… Surprisingly although not great 
workmanship everything is where it is supposed to be. I decided to 
give the AC input on the inverter it's own dedicated neutral as at 
this point I was reaching for straws and the installation manual was 
unclear about this detail. Still nothing. A call to Schnieder 
confirmed that there was no setting I was missing.


I placed another call to Schnieder tech support. They did and have 
continued to answer the phone promptly. It did take a bit of chasing 
them but I finally got a answer that there Level 3 folks can 
reproduce the error. The inverter is following the frequency of the 
genset as it winds down down to 40hrtz. This is after the AC transfer 
inside the inverter has happened. During the cool down period 
everything is fine. This happens as the genset is actual shutting off 
and spinning down to a stop. They say this a firmware issue and that 
it will take months to push out as is needs to be UL listed. In the 
meantime I have a pissed off client, her oven went belly up on the 
low frequency voltage, there is concern about possible unseen damage 
to her new water pump, and I  wasted countless hours of my own time 
attempting to make the situation right. All of this due to a firmware 
that was released with a fatal flaw 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware

[Tump]

Firmware version? What is the generator low voltage set point set to? If it is 
a good quality get set this should be set ~110-112 VAC that way when the gen 
set is unloading/shutting off, the inverter will switch at that voltage from 
gen set to inverter.  you also have a Hz set point for the genset to 
latch/unlatch that apparently it is not disconnecting.  55hz. 80 VAC for AC2, I 
believe is the default.
> On Dec 29, 2016, at 2:27 PM, Lou Russo  wrote:
> 
> Wrenches,
> 
> I recently installed a Schneider Conext SW 4024, Schnieder's DC Distribution 
> panel, AC Distribution panel, SCP, and the AGS. It was to be a 
> straightforward inverter swap, Xantrex 4024 to the Conext SW setup. The 
> actual installation went fine. I did switch over the house wiring from 120 to 
> 240  as well as the diesel genset. 
> 
> After a steep learning curve with the client all seemed well. 1 week later 
> she called and says the power behaves oddly as the generator is shutting 
> down. Symptoms are some arc fault breakers trip and the compressor on her 
> fridge sounds like its bogging down. I make the 45 minute drive out and 
> started my search. This is a site with 3 buildings on 3 acres. I double 
> checked all my wiring at the inverter, then moved onto the various buildings 
> checking for redundant neutral to grounds, proper bonding, etc… Surprisingly 
> although not great workmanship everything is where it is supposed to be. I 
> decided to give the AC input on the inverter it's own dedicated neutral as at 
> this point I was reaching for straws and the installation manual was unclear 
> about this detail. Still nothing. A call to Schnieder confirmed that there 
> was no setting I was missing. 
> 
> I placed another call to Schnieder tech support. They did and have continued 
> to answer the phone promptly. It did take a bit of chasing them but I finally 
> got a answer that there Level 3 folks can reproduce the error. The inverter 
> is following the frequency of the genset as it winds down down to 40hrtz. 
> This is after the AC transfer inside the inverter has happened. During the 
> cool down period everything is fine. This happens as the genset is actual 
> shutting off and spinning down to a stop. They say this a firmware issue and 
> that it will take months to push out as is needs to be UL listed. In the 
> meantime I have a pissed off client, her oven went belly up on the low 
> frequency voltage, there is concern about possible unseen damage to her new 
> water pump, and I  wasted countless hours of my own time attempting to make 
> the situation right. All of this due to a firmware that was released with a 
> fatal flaw and can not be changed for months. 
> 
> I am extremely disappointed in Schneider. I have been hesitant use them over 
> the years as I was still scarred from the Xantrex days. My “beta” test went 
> will with a early version I installed 2 years ago so I figured it was a safe 
> move. Obviously I was wrong. Lesson learned stick with Outback and SMA. 
> 
> So I have 2 questions for the list.
> 
> 1.Has anybody else on the list seen this issue and corrected it regardless of 
> the firmware? I have installed one other conext sw about 2 years ago when it 
> first came out. The setup is very similar except that it is 48V and has a 
> very old firmware. I went out to this old site to confirm all is well and it 
> is fine.
> 
> 2.Does anybody have a good contact at Schneider that could be of help? I 
> tried to contact Sandra Herrera as she was a great help years ago, but her 
> phone number no longer works. 
> 
> 3.Does anybody have an old version of the Conext firmware lying around they 
> could point me to? The website does not seem to have old versions.   
> 
> Any input is greatly appreciated!
> 
> Schnieder, if you have a presence here contact me. 
> 
> 
> Aloha,
> 
> Lou Russo
> l...@spreesolarsystems.com 
> 440 345 6762
> Spree Solar Systems LLC 
> CT-34322
> 
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> t...@swnl.net 
>   
>  www.SWNL.net 
> 
> Solarwinds Northernlights   
>Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
>  207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401  
> 
>   Blair "TUMP" May
>  

Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware

[William Miller]

Lou:



I am sorry to hear about your situation.  Too often the installer is stuck
in the middle between equipment that does not perform as it should and the
customers that experience the problems.



I have a system with similar problems, although it is an Outback system.
The facility is an off-grid state highway maintenance station.  The loads
are large, the PV small and therefore requires two generator run time per
day.  The load profile shows peak loads in mornings and evenings.  We
figured the best way to accommodate this profile was to have two must-run
periods per day.  The Outback equipment does not support two must-run
cycles per day.



The generator runs were achieved by using an external time clock set for
two closures per day.  The problem is the generator shuts down without the
system knowing.  If the system knew about the shutdown, it would disconnect
first and stop generator second.  If your inverter is starting and stopping
the generator, it should disconnect first.  If it is not doing so, the
logic is faulty.  This may be what the firmware fails to do.  If so, this
is a very basic flaw in the firmware.  This concept is quite old and should
have been incorporated in the system without second thought.



In our case, the generator shutdown generates a lot of error codes due to
decaying voltage and frequency.  We minimized the errors by shortening the
transfer delay.   If this parameter exists in the Conext system, it may be
called something different from the term Outback uses, so you will have to
determine for yourself if this adjustment exists.  If you find it, set it
to transfer at a high threshold (nearer 120/240 at 60 hertz) and as quickly
as possible.



This may not be possible, but see if you can adjust your way out of this
problem.



Good luck.



William Miller





[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Lou Russo
*Sent:* Thursday, December 29, 2016 11:27 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware



Wrenches,



I recently installed a Schneider Conext SW 4024, Schnieder's DC
Distribution panel, AC Distribution panel, SCP, and the AGS. It was to be a
straightforward inverter swap, Xantrex 4024 to the Conext SW setup. The
actual installation went fine. I did switch over the house wiring from 120
to 240  as well as the diesel genset.



After a steep learning curve with the client all seemed well. 1 week later
she called and says the power behaves oddly as the generator is shutting
down. Symptoms are some arc fault breakers trip and the compressor on her
fridge sounds like its bogging down. I make the 45 minute drive out and
started my search. This is a site with 3 buildings on 3 acres. I double
checked all my wiring at the inverter, then moved onto the various
buildings checking for redundant neutral to grounds, proper bonding, etc…
Surprisingly although not great workmanship everything is where it is
supposed to be. I decided to give the AC input on the inverter it's own
dedicated neutral as at this point I was reaching for straws and the
installation manual was unclear about this detail. Still nothing. A call to
Schnieder confirmed that there was no setting I was missing.



I placed another call to Schnieder tech support. They did and have
continued to answer the phone promptly. It did take a bit of chasing them
but I finally got a answer that there Level 3 folks can reproduce the
error. The inverter is following the frequency of the genset as it winds
down down to 40hrtz. This is after the AC transfer inside the inverter has
happened. During the cool down period everything is fine. This happens as
the genset is actual shutting off and spinning down to a stop. They say
this a firmware issue and that it will take months to push out as is needs
to be UL listed. In the meantime I have a pissed off client, her oven went
belly up on the low frequency voltage, there is concern about possible
unseen damage to her new water pump, and I  wasted countless hours of my
own time attempting to make the situation right. All of this due to a
firmware that was released with a fatal flaw and can not be changed for
months.



I am extremely disappointed in Schneider. I have been hesitant use them
over the years as I was still scarred from the Xantrex days. My “beta” test
went will with a early version I installed 2 years ago so I figured it was
a safe move. Obviously I was wrong. Lesson learned stick with Outback and
SMA.



So I have 2 questions for the list.



1.Has anybody else on the list seen this issue and corrected it regardless
of the firmware? I have installed one other conext sw about 2 years ago
when it first came out. The setup is very similar except that it is 48V and
has a very old firmware. I went out to this old site to confirm all is well
and it i

Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware

[Jay]

Hi Lou,

I might suggest a relay that switches with the signal for ags start/stop. 
It'll disconnect the AC from the genset with a lot shorter delay. 

Jay

Peltz power. 



Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 29, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Lou Russo  wrote:
> 
> Wrenches,
> 
> I recently installed a Schneider Conext SW 4024, Schnieder's DC Distribution 
> panel, AC Distribution panel, SCP, and the AGS. It was to be a 
> straightforward inverter swap, Xantrex 4024 to the Conext SW setup. The 
> actual installation went fine. I did switch over the house wiring from 120 to 
> 240  as well as the diesel genset. 
> 
> After a steep learning curve with the client all seemed well. 1 week later 
> she called and says the power behaves oddly as the generator is shutting 
> down. Symptoms are some arc fault breakers trip and the compressor on her 
> fridge sounds like its bogging down. I make the 45 minute drive out and 
> started my search. This is a site with 3 buildings on 3 acres. I double 
> checked all my wiring at the inverter, then moved onto the various buildings 
> checking for redundant neutral to grounds, proper bonding, etc… Surprisingly 
> although not great workmanship everything is where it is supposed to be. I 
> decided to give the AC input on the inverter it's own dedicated neutral as at 
> this point I was reaching for straws and the installation manual was unclear 
> about this detail. Still nothing. A call to Schnieder confirmed that there 
> was no setting I was missing. 
> 
> I placed another call to Schnieder tech support. They did and have continued 
> to answer the phone promptly. It did take a bit of chasing them but I finally 
> got a answer that there Level 3 folks can reproduce the error. The inverter 
> is following the frequency of the genset as it winds down down to 40hrtz. 
> This is after the AC transfer inside the inverter has happened. During the 
> cool down period everything is fine. This happens as the genset is actual 
> shutting off and spinning down to a stop. They say this a firmware issue and 
> that it will take months to push out as is needs to be UL listed. In the 
> meantime I have a pissed off client, her oven went belly up on the low 
> frequency voltage, there is concern about possible unseen damage to her new 
> water pump, and I  wasted countless hours of my own time attempting to make 
> the situation right. All of this due to a firmware that was released with a 
> fatal flaw and can not be changed for months. 
> 
> I am extremely disappointed in Schneider. I have been hesitant use them over 
> the years as I was still scarred from the Xantrex days. My “beta” test went 
> will with a early version I installed 2 years ago so I figured it was a safe 
> move. Obviously I was wrong. Lesson learned stick with Outback and SMA. 
> 
> So I have 2 questions for the list.
> 
> 1.Has anybody else on the list seen this issue and corrected it regardless of 
> the firmware? I have installed one other conext sw about 2 years ago when it 
> first came out. The setup is very similar except that it is 48V and has a 
> very old firmware. I went out to this old site to confirm all is well and it 
> is fine.
> 
> 2.Does anybody have a good contact at Schneider that could be of help? I 
> tried to contact Sandra Herrera as she was a great help years ago, but her 
> phone number no longer works. 
> 
> 3.Does anybody have an old version of the Conext firmware lying around they 
> could point me to? The website does not seem to have old versions.   
> 
> Any input is greatly appreciated!
> 
> Schnieder, if you have a presence here contact me. 
> 
> 
> Aloha,
> 
> Lou Russo
> l...@spreesolarsystems.com
> 440 345 6762
> Spree Solar Systems LLC 
> CT-34322
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware

[Ray Walters]

I've seen  similar weirdness with many systems of various brands. The 
issue seems to be having the generator shutting down while still under 
load, with as you noted, the frequency and voltage dropping, and the 
inverter not transferring quick enough.

Basically I suggest to my customers having similar problems to:
A) First, wait for the charge rate to come down, then
B) shut down any other large loads, (ie wait for the water pump to 
finish pumping) then
C) manually switch the generator Breaker off,  which allows a cleaner, 
quicker transfer.


Some generators have a cool down period after being signaled to shut 
off, which solves the problem, too.  Having auto control just shut down 
the generator hard under load is always going to be rough. I wouldn't 
blame it all on Schneider, although it sounds like in your case the 
Conext is extending the low frequency time period, and making it even worse.
A relay might fix the problem too: first have the relay transfer the 
loads, and then send the signal to shut down the generator after.


Besides the firmware issue, I think you're noticing this problem more, 
because of all the new arc fault junk in the house.  IMHO, arc fault 
shouldn't even be required on off grid systems with less than 70 amps 
capacity.  Unless they've recently changed the UL testing, arc fault 
breakers need a min of 70 amp to even work properly.  Of course they're 
annoyingly easy to trip when the frequency and voltage get weird, so off 
grid all those arc fault breakers are Not going to trip when they 
should, but Will trip when they shouldn't. More waste of time and money 
off grid.  Again, just my opinion.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 12/29/2016 12:27 PM, Lou Russo wrote:

Wrenches,

I recently installed a Schneider Conext SW 4024, Schnieder's DC 
Distribution panel, AC Distribution panel, SCP, and the AGS. It was to 
be a straightforward inverter swap, Xantrex 4024 to the Conext SW 
setup. The actual installation went fine. I did switch over the house 
wiring from 120 to 240  as well as the diesel genset.


After a steep learning curve with the client all seemed well. 1 week 
later she called and says the power behaves oddly as the generator is 
shutting down. Symptoms are some arc fault breakers trip and the 
compressor on her fridge sounds like its bogging down. I make the 45 
minute drive out and started my search. This is a site with 3 
buildings on 3 acres. I double checked all my wiring at the inverter, 
then moved onto the various buildings checking for redundant neutral 
to grounds, proper bonding, etc… Surprisingly although not great 
workmanship everything is where it is supposed to be. I decided to 
give the AC input on the inverter it's own dedicated neutral as at 
this point I was reaching for straws and the installation manual was 
unclear about this detail. Still nothing. A call to Schnieder 
confirmed that there was no setting I was missing.


I placed another call to Schnieder tech support. They did and have 
continued to answer the phone promptly. It did take a bit of chasing 
them but I finally got a answer that there Level 3 folks can reproduce 
the error. The inverter is following the frequency of the genset as it 
winds down down to 40hrtz. This is after the AC transfer inside the 
inverter has happened. During the cool down period everything is fine. 
This happens as the genset is actual shutting off and spinning down to 
a stop. They say this a firmware issue and that it will take months to 
push out as is needs to be UL listed. In the meantime I have a pissed 
off client, her oven went belly up on the low frequency voltage, there 
is concern about possible unseen damage to her new water pump, and I 
 wasted countless hours of my own time attempting to make the 
situation right. All of this due to a firmware that was released with 
a fatal flaw and can not be changed for months.


I am extremely disappointed in Schneider. I have been hesitant use 
them over the years as I was still scarred from the Xantrex days. My 
“beta” test went will with a early version I installed 2 years ago so 
I figured it was a safe move. Obviously I was wrong. Lesson learned 
stick with Outback and SMA.


So I have 2 questions for the list.

1.Has anybody else on the list seen this issue and corrected it 
regardless of the firmware? I have installed one other conext sw about 
2 years ago when it first came out. The setup is very similar except 
that it is 48V and has a very old firmware. I went out to this old 
site to confirm all is well and it is fine.


2.Does anybody have a good contact at Schneider that could be of help? 
I tried to contact Sandra Herrera as she was a great help years ago, 
but her phone number no longer works.


3.Does anybody have an old version of the Conext firmware lying around 
they could point me to? The website does not seem to have old versions.

[RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware

[Lou Russo]

Wrenches,

I recently installed a Schneider Conext SW 4024, Schnieder's DC
Distribution panel, AC Distribution panel, SCP, and the AGS. It was to be a
straightforward inverter swap, Xantrex 4024 to the Conext SW setup. The
actual installation went fine. I did switch over the house wiring from 120
to 240  as well as the diesel genset.

After a steep learning curve with the client all seemed well. 1 week later
she called and says the power behaves oddly as the generator is shutting
down. Symptoms are some arc fault breakers trip and the compressor on her
fridge sounds like its bogging down. I make the 45 minute drive out and
started my search. This is a site with 3 buildings on 3 acres. I double
checked all my wiring at the inverter, then moved onto the various
buildings checking for redundant neutral to grounds, proper bonding, etc…
Surprisingly although not great workmanship everything is where it is
supposed to be. I decided to give the AC input on the inverter it's own
dedicated neutral as at this point I was reaching for straws and the
installation manual was unclear about this detail. Still nothing. A call to
Schnieder confirmed that there was no setting I was missing.

I placed another call to Schnieder tech support. They did and have
continued to answer the phone promptly. It did take a bit of chasing them
but I finally got a answer that there Level 3 folks can reproduce the
error. The inverter is following the frequency of the genset as it winds
down down to 40hrtz. This is after the AC transfer inside the inverter has
happened. During the cool down period everything is fine. This happens as
the genset is actual shutting off and spinning down to a stop. They say
this a firmware issue and that it will take months to push out as is needs
to be UL listed. In the meantime I have a pissed off client, her oven went
belly up on the low frequency voltage, there is concern about possible
unseen damage to her new water pump, and I  wasted countless hours of my
own time attempting to make the situation right. All of this due to a
firmware that was released with a fatal flaw and can not be changed for
months.

I am extremely disappointed in Schneider. I have been hesitant use them
over the years as I was still scarred from the Xantrex days. My “beta” test
went will with a early version I installed 2 years ago so I figured it was
a safe move. Obviously I was wrong. Lesson learned stick with Outback and
SMA.

So I have 2 questions for the list.

1.Has anybody else on the list seen this issue and corrected it regardless
of the firmware? I have installed one other conext sw about 2 years ago
when it first came out. The setup is very similar except that it is 48V and
has a very old firmware. I went out to this old site to confirm all is well
and it is fine.

2.Does anybody have a good contact at Schneider that could be of help? I
tried to contact Sandra Herrera as she was a great help years ago, but her
phone number no longer works.

3.Does anybody have an old version of the Conext firmware lying around they
could point me to? The website does not seem to have old versions.

Any input is greatly appreciated!

Schnieder, if you have a presence here contact me.


Aloha,

Lou Russo
l...@spreesolarsystems.com
440 345 6762
Spree Solar Systems LLC
CT-34322
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