Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
All of this refers to shingle roofs, which we don't see much of. We mostly deal with concrete and corrugated steel/galvalume, the latter being a nightmare. Does anyone have good ideas for dealing with corrugated? There's no way to flash it, the blocks are fine when you hit a beam on the ridge but half the time your penetration has to be on the trough of the corrugated steel. Other than lots of goop, I don't know how else to seal it. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
Todd, The issue isn't whether your approach works, but whether it is defensible in the event that something leaks. Most solar contractors receive public funds (rebate monies, ARRA program distributions, etc.). Some of those companies are installing systems in a manner that is not building code compliant. It just takes a high profile leaky roof at a VA hospital or a public housing project where a solar system was installed in a manner that does not meet the building code to lose years of goodwill and support for the industry. Modules prices have fallen quite a bit, but we all loose if State and Federal or public (opinion) support for the industry goes away. Obviously, that's the worst case scenario: That somehow the industry gets painted as being made up of a bunch of irresponsible, fly-by-night, subsidy chasers. Probably nothing to worry about, though. I'm pretty sure there's no precedence for that sort of thing actually happening. Right? What's more likely is that AHJs will get hip to the fact that they need to inspect the building code compliance of roof attachments. When they do, which side of the curve will your company be on? (Since your mind seems to be made up, Todd, that question is addressed to List at large.) Happy Independence Day, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 10:37 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: i wasn't going to enter into this discussion, but this posting prompted me. my most recent job was done with the assistance of the customer. he and i have a long working history, my being his employee some 25 years ago installing shw systems in the area, and now he hiring me to do his personal home's pv system. he insisted on straight L foot mounting without flashings... and i have to agree. in the 25 to 30 years since we did those shw systems, not a single one has leaked. plus, the installation was at the roof ridgeline, so pv quick mounts wouldn't have worked anyway. we put 2 X 8 blocking in the attic between the trusses to acomodate the mounting bolts and used a nice fattie gob of black silicone on each foot, which gooshed out when tightened. the mount will easily outlast the roof... leak free. honestly, i don't care what the ubc/ibs says. if done properly, these kinds of mounts are bombproof. years of experience backs this up. also, i have seen plenty of 'code compliant' oatey no-caulk sewer vent flashings with rotten rubber leaking into homes to know flashed penetrations are no panacea either. todd On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:53pm, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com said: +1 on the use of structural screws. We ran an article about lag screws a couple years ago: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP3_4_pg70_Shelly One of the things that surprised me when I read this manuscript is how variable lag screws are in terms of construction and quality. Besides the convenience of being able to drive a structural screw without a pilot hole, the engineering specs are likely better documented and the manufacturing tolerances are probably tighter as well. FWIW: I think that using unflashed attachments in these litigious times is unwise. It's not consistent with best practices in the construction industry. It does not meet building codes. It violates the roof warranty. It makes your competition look good. We ran our first article on this topic 4 years ago, in our inaugural issue of SolarPro magazine: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg72_Fain The industry has come a long way since then, both in terms of awareness and in terms of off-the-shelf flashed attachment options. There are so many quality flashed attachment solutions to chose from now that I'm not sure why anyone would knowingly expose themselves to a possible construction negligence claim. Drive straight, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Garrison Riegel wrote: The EcoFasten GF1 flashing is easy to install on a retrofit and will not necessarily add any height to the rail. If you do need to trim the flashings installed around the skylight, then I would recommend adding sealant to these penetrations. We ditch the included lag and use a 5/16” GRK RSS (self tapping structural screw). The combination works great and does not require a pilot hole. RSS: http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/RSS_1_2_information.htm GF1 http://ecofastensolar.com/pdf/GF1%20Cutsheets.pdf Best, Garrison Riegel Project Manager Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 [f] 847-647-9360 www.solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified Solar PV and Thermal Installer™ “There is no room for
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
"Most solar contractors receive public funds" I'll have to take issue with that one. I know of no such contractors in my part of the US."The issue isn't whether your approach works, but whether it is defensible in the event that something leaks."Our "redneck" methods may not satisfy the big city folks, but no failures in 20 years means more to our customers than satisfying some bureaucrat's requirements. Original Message ---- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Date: Wed, July 04, 2012 11:07 am To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Todd,The issue isn't whether your approach works, but whether it is defensible in the event that something leaks. Most solar contractors receive public funds (rebate monies, ARRA program distributions, etc.). Some of those companies are installing systems in a manner that is not building code compliant. It just takes a high profile leaky roof at a VA hospital or a public housing project where a solar system was installed in a manner that does not meet the building code to lose years of goodwill and support for the industry.Modules prices have fallen quite a bit, but we all loose if State and Federal or public (opinion) support for the industry goes away.Obviously, that's the worst case scenario: That somehow the industry gets painted as being made up of a bunch of irresponsible, fly-by-night, subsidy chasers. Probably nothing to worry about, though. I'm pretty sure there's no precedence for that sort of thing actually happening. Right?What's more likely is that AHJs will get hip to the fact that they need to inspect the building code compliance of roof attachments. When they do, which side of the curve will your company be on? (Since your mind seems to be made up, Todd, that question is addressed to List at large.)Happy Independence Day,David Brearley, Senior Technical EditorSolarPro magazineNABCEP Certified PV Installer ™david.brear...@solarprofessional.comDirect: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 10:37 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:i wasn't going to enter into this discussion, but this posting prompted me. my most recent job was done with the assistance of the customer. he and i have a long working history, my being his employee some 25 years ago installing shw systems in the area, and now he hiring me to do his personal home's pv system.he insisted on straight L foot mounting without flashings... and i have to agree. in the 25 to 30 years since we did those shw systems, not a single one has leaked. plus, the installation was at the roof ridgeline, so pv quick mounts wouldn't have worked anyway. we put 2 X 8 blocking in the attic between the trusses to acomodate the mounting bolts and used a nice fattie gob of black silicone on each foot, which gooshed out when tightened. the mount will easily outlast the roof... leak free.honestly, i don't care what the ubc/ibs says.if done properly, these kinds of mounts are bombproof. years of experience backs this up. also, i have seen plenty of 'code compliant' oatey no-caulk sewer vent flashings with rotten rubber leaking into homes to know flashed penetrations are no panacea either.toddOn Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:53pm, "David Brearley" david.brear...@solarprofessional.com said: +1 on the use of structural screws. We ran an article about lag screws a couple years ago: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP3_4_pg70_Shelly One of the things that surprised me when I read this manuscript is how variable lag screws are in terms of construction and quality. Besides the convenience of being able to drive a structural screw without a pilot hole, the engineering specs are likely better documented and the manufacturing tolerances are probably tighter as well. FWIW: I think that using unflashed attachments in these litigious times is unwise. It's not consistent with best practices in the construction industry. It does not meet building codes. It violates the roof warranty.It makes your competition look good.We ran our first article on this topic 4 years ago, in our inaugural issue of SolarPro magazine: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg72_Fain The industry has come a long way since then, both in terms of awareness and in terms of off-the-shelf flashed attachment options. There are so many quality flashed attachment solutions to chose from now that I'm not sure why anyone would knowingly expose themselves to a possibleconstruction negligence claim. Drive straight, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazineNABCEP Certified PV Installer ™david.brear...@solarprofessional.comDirect: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Garrison Riegel wrote: The EcoFasten GF1 flashing is easy to install on a retrofit and will not necessarily add any height to the rail. If you do need to trim the flashings installed around the skyligh
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
The text doesn’t imply that the wood will not split, it simply says it can be driven in without a pilot hole. For that matter a sheet metal screw can be driven into wood without a pilot hole. The reason that the pilot hole offers an advantage is because there will be threads cut into the entire 360° contact surface of the hole. Without a pilot, the wood will split along the grain, maybe only a tiny amount but the laws of physics make no exception because of an advertised claim. Where there is no metal to wood contact there is no holding power and the pullout strength is compromised. But that’s why the pullout charts use a 2x safety factor. Dave B. said it clearly, “I'm not sure why anyone would knowingly expose themselves to a possible construction negligence claim.”. My 2¢ 2x Jim Duncan North Texas Renewable Energy Inc www.ntrei.com http://www.ntrei.com/ NABCEP PV 031310-57 TECL-27398 nt...@1scom.net 817.917.0527 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn At DayStarSolar Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 5:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof I haven't read up on the mentioned structural screws yet, but do they specifically state that they can be driven without a pilot hole? What is the justification and how are they different so that they won't cause a board to split under pressure? Does anyone have some good info on this? benn Sent from a 'smart' phone, with tiny keys. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
30 years of industry precedence is defensible. The L foot is essentially a sealed flashing as well, so we're really talking interpretation. I've done it many different ways, worked on decades old systems, and even though I was a flashing man for many years, I'm back to thinking the venerable L foot has its place in our industry. I've seen some flashed installations that were code compliant, but looked horrible, and worse: leaked. Ray Walters On Jul 4, 2012, at 9:07 AM, David Brearley wrote: Todd, The issue isn't whether your approach works, but whether it is defensible in the event that something leaks. Most solar contractors receive public funds (rebate monies, ARRA program distributions, etc.). Some of those companies are installing systems in a manner that is not building code compliant. It just takes a high profile leaky roof at a VA hospital or a public housing project where a solar system was installed in a manner that does not meet the building code to lose years of goodwill and support for the industry. Modules prices have fallen quite a bit, but we all loose if State and Federal or public (opinion) support for the industry goes away. Obviously, that's the worst case scenario: That somehow the industry gets painted as being made up of a bunch of irresponsible, fly-by-night, subsidy chasers. Probably nothing to worry about, though. I'm pretty sure there's no precedence for that sort of thing actually happening. Right? What's more likely is that AHJs will get hip to the fact that they need to inspect the building code compliance of roof attachments. When they do, which side of the curve will your company be on? (Since your mind seems to be made up, Todd, that question is addressed to List at large.) Happy Independence Day, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 10:37 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: i wasn't going to enter into this discussion, but this posting prompted me. my most recent job was done with the assistance of the customer. he and i have a long working history, my being his employee some 25 years ago installing shw systems in the area, and now he hiring me to do his personal home's pv system. he insisted on straight L foot mounting without flashings... and i have to agree. in the 25 to 30 years since we did those shw systems, not a single one has leaked. plus, the installation was at the roof ridgeline, so pv quick mounts wouldn't have worked anyway. we put 2 X 8 blocking in the attic between the trusses to acomodate the mounting bolts and used a nice fattie gob of black silicone on each foot, which gooshed out when tightened. the mount will easily outlast the roof... leak free. honestly, i don't care what the ubc/ibs says. if done properly, these kinds of mounts are bombproof. years of experience backs this up. also, i have seen plenty of 'code compliant' oatey no-caulk sewer vent flashings with rotten rubber leaking into homes to know flashed penetrations are no panacea either. todd On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:53pm, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com said: +1 on the use of structural screws. We ran an article about lag screws a couple years ago: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP3_4_pg70_Shelly One of the things that surprised me when I read this manuscript is how variable lag screws are in terms of construction and quality. Besides the convenience of being able to drive a structural screw without a pilot hole, the engineering specs are likely better documented and the manufacturing tolerances are probably tighter as well. FWIW: I think that using unflashed attachments in these litigious times is unwise. It's not consistent with best practices in the construction industry. It does not meet building codes. It violates the roof warranty. It makes your competition look good. We ran our first article on this topic 4 years ago, in our inaugural issue of SolarPro magazine: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg72_Fain The industry has come a long way since then, both in terms of awareness and in terms of off-the-shelf flashed attachment options. There are so many quality flashed attachment solutions to chose from now that I'm not sure why anyone would knowingly expose themselves to a possible construction negligence claim. Drive straight, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Garrison Riegel wrote: The EcoFasten GF1 flashing is easy to install on a retrofit and will not necessarily add any height to the rail. If you do need to trim the flashings installed around the skylight, then I
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
In some cases, you can install blocking to get up on the ridge consistently. One alternative to hangar bolts is to use corrugated mounting bridges from DPW Solar or something similar from another company. Sorry I can't link to the PDF. Google: corrugated mounting bridges Since exposed-fastener metal roofs already have a bunch of holes in them, you're not voiding the roof warranty by punching more holes in the ridge. (I don't think these roofs even meet the NRCA definition of a roof assembly because of the exposed penetrations.) Penetrations in the valleys on a roof are problematic for obvious reasons. On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:01 AM, Chris Mason wrote: All of this refers to shingle roofs, which we don't see much of. We mostly deal with concrete and corrugated steel/galvalume, the latter being a nightmare. Does anyone have good ideas for dealing with corrugated? There's no way to flash it, the blocks are fine when you hit a beam on the ridge but half the time your penetration has to be on the trough of the corrugated steel. Other than lots of goop, I don't know how else to seal it. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
Presumably most solar contractors benefit from increased sales due to the availability of a 30% federal tax credit. Arguably, that's not the same thing as receiving public funds, but the net effect is the same. My point is simply that as an industry we are dependent upon public support and a variety direct and indirect subsidies. That raises questions about accountability, about how those funds are being spent. The best thing that we can do as an industry is strive to adopt best practices that are beyond reproach, equivalent standards for other trades, and ideally defensible in a court of law in the event that things go south for whatever reason. (Forget the bureaucrats in the city, it's the lawyers who capitalize on construction negligence claims. The last one on the roof is the first one blamed. Often, we're the last ones on the roof.) On Jul 4, 2012, at 10:31 AM, m...@hurshtown.com m...@hurshtown.com wrote: Most solar contractors receive public funds I'll have to take issue with that one. I know of no such contractors in my part of the US. The issue isn't whether your approach works, but whether it is defensible in the event that something leaks. Our redneck methods may not satisfy the big city folks, but no failures in 20 years means more to our customers than satisfying some bureaucrat's requirements. ___ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
David, Why does your editor put Todd's articles (and use him as a cover story) in your magazines (more than once, I believe) if it is not for his __experience__? The fact that there is a prescribed product (more than one in this case) that gets blessed when old fashioned, time tested, craftsmanship has already solved the problem is a testament to what payola will buy. No leak, no negligence, no claim. But then your magazines wouldn't garner such a big advertizing budget without all those manufacturers with new and improved products. Additionally, this List would perhaps have to find alternative funding, too. If you are really interested in eliminating the irresponsible, fly-by-night, subsidy chasers one easy way may be to eliminate the subsidy. Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar On 04-Jul-12 10:07 AM, David Brearley wrote: Todd, The issue isn't whether your approach works, but whether it is defensible in the event that something leaks. Most solar contractors receive public funds (rebate monies, ARRA program distributions, etc.). Some of those companies are installing systems in a manner that is not building code compliant. It just takes a high profile leaky roof at a VA hospital or a public housing project where a solar system was installed in a manner that does not meet the building code to lose years of goodwill and support for the industry. Modules prices have fallen quite a bit, but we all loose if State and Federal or public (opinion) support for the industry goes away. Obviously, that's the worst case scenario: That somehow the industry gets painted as being made up of a bunch of irresponsible, fly-by-night, subsidy chasers. Probably nothing to worry about, though. I'm pretty sure there's no precedence for that sort of thing actually happening. Right? What's more likely is that AHJs will get hip to the fact that they need to inspect the building code compliance of roof attachments. When they do, which side of the curve will your company be on? (Since your mind seems to be made up, Todd, that question is addressed to List at large.) Happy Independence Day, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com mailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 10:37 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com mailto:toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: i wasn't going to enter into this discussion, but this posting prompted me. my most recent job was done with the assistance of the customer. he and i have a long working history, my being his employee some 25 years ago installing shw systems in the area, and now he hiring me to do his personal home's pv system. he insisted on straight L foot mounting without flashings... and i have to agree. in the 25 to 30 years since we did those shw systems, not a single one has leaked. plus, the installation was at the roof ridgeline, so pv quick mounts wouldn't have worked anyway. we put 2 X 8 blocking in the attic between the trusses to acomodate the mounting bolts and used a nice fattie gob of black silicone on each foot, which gooshed out when tightened. the mount will easily outlast the roof... leak free. honestly, i don't care what the ubc/ibs says. if done properly,these kinds of mounts are bombproof. years of experience backs this up. also, i have seen plenty of 'code compliant' oatey no-caulk sewer vent flashings with rotten rubber leaking into homes to know flashed penetrations are no panacea either. todd On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:53pm, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com mailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.com said: +1 on the use of structural screws. We ran an article about lag screws a couple years ago: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP3_4_pg70_Shelly One of the things that surprised me when I read this manuscript is how variable lag screws are in terms of construction and quality. Besides the convenience of being able to drive a structural screw without a pilot hole, the engineering specs are likely better documented and the manufacturing tolerances are probably tighter as well. FWIW: I think that using unflashed attachments in these litigious times is unwise. It's not consistent with best practices in the construction industry. It does not meet building codes. It violates the roof warranty. It makes your competition look good. We ran our first article on this topic 4 years ago, in our inaugural issue of SolarPro magazine: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg72_Fain The industry has come a long way since then, both in terms of awareness and in terms of off-the-shelf flashed attachment options. There are so many quality flashed attachment solutions to chose from now that I'm not sure why anyone would knowingly expose themselves to a possible construction negligence claim. Drive straight, David Brearley,
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
Bill, FWIW: none of the companies with flashed attachments solutions mentioned in the article we ran in SP1.1 were advertisers. Having said that, I do see a lot of articles in trade publications that are pretty shameless exercises in product placement. I've always found that off-putting and assumed that others feel the same way. That's why we try to develop content that does not insult our readers. Rather running a pay-to-play kind of shop, our goal has always been to publish the best technical content possible. If readers like the content, then we get more industry subscribers. Reaching that audience is desirable to advertisers. Having advertiser support allows us to compensate authors for their high quality technical content that readers enjoy. Ideally, it's a win-win-win situation. Let me know if there's something you think we could be doing better. Thanks, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 4, 2012, at 2:25 PM, Bill Loesch wrote: David, Why does your editor put Todd's articles (and use him as a cover story) in your magazines (more than once, I believe) if it is not for his _experience_? The fact that there is a prescribed product (more than one in this case) that gets blessed when old fashioned, time tested, craftsmanship has already solved the problem is a testament to what payola will buy. No leak, no negligence, no claim. But then your magazines wouldn't garner such a big advertizing budget without all those manufacturers with new and improved products. Additionally, this List would perhaps have to find alternative funding, too. If you are really interested in eliminating the irresponsible, fly-by-night, subsidy chasers one easy way may be to eliminate the subsidy. Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar On 04-Jul-12 10:07 AM, David Brearley wrote: Todd, The issue isn't whether your approach works, but whether it is defensible in the event that something leaks. Most solar contractors receive public funds (rebate monies, ARRA program distributions, etc.). Some of those companies are installing systems in a manner that is not building code compliant. It just takes a high profile leaky roof at a VA hospital or a public housing project where a solar system was installed in a manner that does not meet the building code to lose years of goodwill and support for the industry. Modules prices have fallen quite a bit, but we all loose if State and Federal or public (opinion) support for the industry goes away. Obviously, that's the worst case scenario: That somehow the industry gets painted as being made up of a bunch of irresponsible, fly-by-night, subsidy chasers. Probably nothing to worry about, though. I'm pretty sure there's no precedence for that sort of thing actually happening. Right? What's more likely is that AHJs will get hip to the fact that they need to inspect the building code compliance of roof attachments. When they do, which side of the curve will your company be on? (Since your mind seems to be made up, Todd, that question is addressed to List at large.) Happy Independence Day, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 10:37 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: i wasn't going to enter into this discussion, but this posting prompted me. my most recent job was done with the assistance of the customer. he and i have a long working history, my being his employee some 25 years ago installing shw systems in the area, and now he hiring me to do his personal home's pv system. he insisted on straight L foot mounting without flashings... and i have to agree. in the 25 to 30 years since we did those shw systems, not a single one has leaked. plus, the installation was at the roof ridgeline, so pv quick mounts wouldn't have worked anyway. we put 2 X 8 blocking in the attic between the trusses to acomodate the mounting bolts and used a nice fattie gob of black silicone on each foot, which gooshed out when tightened. the mount will easily outlast the roof... leak free. honestly, i don't care what the ubc/ibs says. if done properly, these kinds of mounts are bombproof. years of experience backs this up. also, i have seen plenty of 'code compliant' oatey no-caulk sewer vent flashings with rotten rubber leaking into homes to know flashed penetrations are no panacea either. todd On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:53pm, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com said: +1 on the use of structural screws. We ran an article about lag screws a couple years ago: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP3_4_pg70_Shelly One of the things that surprised me when I read this
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
I use corrugated mounting bridges - that's the problem. If the center of the beam falls in the trough, the corrugated bridge is useless. I am not sure how blocking would help. Corrugated is a pain. On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 12:11 PM, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com wrote: In some cases, you can install blocking to get up on the ridge consistently. One alternative to hangar bolts is to use corrugated mounting bridges from DPW Solar or something similar from another company. Sorry I can't link to the PDF. Google: corrugated mounting bridges Since exposed-fastener metal roofs already have a bunch of holes in them, you're not voiding the roof warranty by punching more holes in the ridge. (I don't think these roofs even meet the NRCA definition of a roof assembly because of the exposed penetrations.) Penetrations in the valleys on a roof are problematic for obvious reasons. On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:01 AM, Chris Mason wrote: All of this refers to shingle roofs, which we don't see much of. We mostly deal with concrete and corrugated steel/galvalume, the latter being a nightmare. Does anyone have good ideas for dealing with corrugated? There's no way to flash it, the blocks are fine when you hit a beam on the ridge but half the time your penetration has to be on the trough of the corrugated steel. Other than lots of goop, I don't know how else to seal it. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
Chris, I'm pretty sure that what David means by blocking is if the roof has rafters (peak to eave) rather than purlins (horizontal) then, IF you can access the underside of the roof, you properly install 'blocking' (2x4, 2x6, 2x8) against the underside of the roof sheathing, perpendicular to the rafters. Then you can drill your bolt anywhere along the blocking which then eliminates the restriction of having to attach to a rafter every 16-24. Keep in mind that there are proper methods of doing this to make sure the blocking is properly attached to the rafters, otherwise any uplift pressure from the array is only supported by the roof material and not the structure (rafters/purlins) Then again, access to the underside of the roof is not always available or is restrictive, so this is an important factor to figure out before you land on site with your roof attachments and racking, ready to go. Cheers, benn DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. www.daystarsolar.ca 780-906-7807 Construction Electrician Solar Photovoltaic Systems Certified Certificate # 0007S HAVE A SUNNY DAY On 04/07/12 5:23 PM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: I use corrugated mounting bridges - that's the problem. If the center of the beam falls in the trough, the corrugated bridge is useless. I am not sure how blocking would help. Corrugated is a pain. On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 12:11 PM, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com wrote: In some cases, you can install blocking to get up on the ridge consistently. One alternative to hangar bolts is to use corrugated mounting bridges from DPW Solar or something similar from another company. Sorry I can't link to the PDF. Google: corrugated mounting bridges Since exposed-fastener metal roofs already have a bunch of holes in them, you're not voiding the roof warranty by punching more holes in the ridge. (I don't think these roofs even meet the NRCA definition of a roof assembly because of the exposed penetrations.) Penetrations in the valleys on a roof are problematic for obvious reasons. On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:01 AM, Chris Mason wrote: All of this refers to shingle roofs, which we don't see much of. We mostly deal with concrete and corrugated steel/galvalume, the latter being a nightmare. Does anyone have good ideas for dealing with corrugated? There's no way to flash it, the blocks are fine when you hit a beam on the ridge but half the time your penetration has to be on the trough of the corrugated steel. Other than lots of goop, I don't know how else to seal it. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
I've never had that luxury, generally the underside is visible and can't be changed. We get through but it's a pain. On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:36 PM, benn kilburn b...@daystarsolar.ca wrote: Chris, I'm pretty sure that what David means by blocking is if the roof has rafters (peak to eave) rather than purlins (horizontal) then, IF you can access the underside of the roof, you properly install 'blocking' (2x4, 2x6, 2x8) against the underside of the roof sheathing, perpendicular to the rafters. Then you can drill your bolt anywhere along the blocking which then eliminates the restriction of having to attach to a rafter every 16-24. Keep in mind that there are proper methods of doing this to make sure the blocking is properly attached to the rafters, otherwise any uplift pressure from the array is only supported by the roof material and not the structure (rafters/purlins) Then again, access to the underside of the roof is not always available or is restrictive, so this is an important factor to figure out before you land on site with your roof attachments and racking, ready to go. Cheers, benn DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. www.daystarsolar.ca 780-906-7807 Construction Electrician Solar Photovoltaic Systems Certified Certificate # 0007S HAVE A SUNNY DAY On 04/07/12 5:23 PM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: I use corrugated mounting bridges - that's the problem. If the center of the beam falls in the trough, the corrugated bridge is useless. I am not sure how blocking would help. Corrugated is a pain. On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 12:11 PM, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com wrote: In some cases, you can install blocking to get up on the ridge consistently. One alternative to hangar bolts is to use corrugated mounting bridges from DPW Solar or something similar from another company. Sorry I can't link to the PDF. Google: corrugated mounting bridges Since exposed-fastener metal roofs already have a bunch of holes in them, you're not voiding the roof warranty by punching more holes in the ridge. (I don't think these roofs even meet the NRCA definition of a roof assembly because of the exposed penetrations.) Penetrations in the valleys on a roof are problematic for obvious reasons. On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:01 AM, Chris Mason wrote: All of this refers to shingle roofs, which we don't see much of. We mostly deal with concrete and corrugated steel/galvalume, the latter being a nightmare. Does anyone have good ideas for dealing with corrugated? There's no way to flash it, the blocks are fine when you hit a beam on the ridge but half the time your penetration has to be on the trough of the corrugated steel. Other than lots of goop, I don't know how else to seal it. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
This is very interesting to me. I just added 2kW to my home and this thread inspired me. I did half the array using quick mount PV, and half the array using oatey flashing and a two piece stand-off. Along with that array I added a single module on a micro I picked up cheap. I attached that module with just L-feet and lexell. I used the L-feet on my garage because I just couldnt blast an L foot to the roof on my house. I did pilot all the attachment. As a previous carpenter (third generation) it was the way I was taught. I will report back in thirty years. Jesse Sent from my iPhone On Jul 4, 2012, at 7:39 PM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: I've never had that luxury, generally the underside is visible and can't be changed. We get through but it's a pain. On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:36 PM, benn kilburn b...@daystarsolar.ca wrote: Chris, I'm pretty sure that what David means by blocking is if the roof has rafters (peak to eave) rather than purlins (horizontal) then, IF you can access the underside of the roof, you properly install 'blocking' (2x4, 2x6, 2x8) against the underside of the roof sheathing, perpendicular to the rafters. Then you can drill your bolt anywhere along the blocking which then eliminates the restriction of having to attach to a rafter every 16-24. Keep in mind that there are proper methods of doing this to make sure the blocking is properly attached to the rafters, otherwise any uplift pressure from the array is only supported by the roof material and not the structure (rafters/purlins) Then again, access to the underside of the roof is not always available or is restrictive, so this is an important factor to figure out before you land on site with your roof attachments and racking, ready to go. Cheers, benn DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. www.daystarsolar.ca 780-906-7807 Construction Electrician Solar Photovoltaic Systems Certified Certificate # 0007S HAVE A SUNNY DAY On 04/07/12 5:23 PM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: I use corrugated mounting bridges - that's the problem. If the center of the beam falls in the trough, the corrugated bridge is useless. I am not sure how blocking would help. Corrugated is a pain. On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 12:11 PM, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com wrote: In some cases, you can install blocking to get up on the ridge consistently. One alternative to hangar bolts is to use corrugated mounting bridges from DPW Solar or something similar from another company. Sorry I can't link to the PDF. Google: corrugated mounting bridges Since exposed-fastener metal roofs already have a bunch of holes in them, you're not voiding the roof warranty by punching more holes in the ridge. (I don't think these roofs even meet the NRCA definition of a roof assembly because of the exposed penetrations.) Penetrations in the valleys on a roof are problematic for obvious reasons. On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:01 AM, Chris Mason wrote: All of this refers to shingle roofs, which we don't see much of. We mostly deal with concrete and corrugated steel/galvalume, the latter being a nightmare. Does anyone have good ideas for dealing with corrugated? There's no way to flash it, the blocks are fine when you hit a beam on the ridge but half the time your penetration has to be on the trough of the corrugated steel. Other than lots of goop, I don't know how else to seal it. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
more likely to split your trusses. IBC also requires flashings be used but at least around here inspectors never ask for it (which makes sense- as you all know, Florida never sees wind or rain, and definitely not at the same time). What silicone do you use that's compatible with asphalt shingles?DKCOn 2012/7/1 21:13, m...@hurshtown.comwrote: In my 20 year experience of lagging down L feet on shingle roofs in Indiana with a good dollop of silicone caulk under the foot, I've never had an issue. No pre-drilling, just drive the lag home. Drilling a hole first is not necessary, and reduces holding strength. No reason to make a science project out of it and increase cost and labor. Mark Original Message ---- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org Date: Fri, June 29, 2012 3:09 pm To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi Jay, There is no room for flashings. The L feet will go very close to the skylights and the flashing would hit the edge of them. Plus there is an existing array that was done by another installer that is done with L feet only. The new array would be higher. And given that we have really good off the shelf approved flashed feet, why would you use anything else? My 2 cents, Jay peltz power On Jun 29, 2012, at 5:16 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: We have used a variety of sealants over the years, and determined simple Henry roofing cement is the best product for use on comp roofing. We also used to bend our own L-foot flashing, which we cut from standard Al coil stock (before all the manufactured options were available). This might be a good option for you in this case. Glenn *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Drake *Sent:* Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:40 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm; Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.orghttp://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org___List sponsored by Home Power magazineList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgOptions settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgOptions settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___List sponsored by Home Power magazineList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgOptions settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Addr
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
I don't believe you are correct here. The body of the lag does not do anything for the holding power, it is the threads that prevent pullout. If you drive a 5/16 lag into a 3 x 8 without a pilot hole, you will be putting a lot of pressure into the wood to split it. It might not split every time, it might not split right then, but you are definitely introducing a lot of stress for no good reason. On any of these techniques for mounting, I want to follow the manufacturers recommendations, otherwise how can you be sure if you are right. Without a testing lab, you have no way to know. I think mounting PV systems IS a science project, it takes care and thought to do it right. We do a lot of concrete roof installations in hurricane areas, and mounting keeps me up at night. On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 9:13 PM, m...@hurshtown.com wrote: In my 20 year experience of lagging down L feet on shingle roofs in Indiana with a good dollop of silicone caulk under the foot, I've never had an issue. No pre-drilling, just drive the lag home. Drilling a hole first is not necessary, and reduces holding strength. No reason to make a science project out of it and increase cost and labor. Mark Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org Date: Fri, June 29, 2012 3:09 pm To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi Jay, There is no room for flashings. The L feet will go very close to the skylights and the flashing would hit the edge of them. Plus there is an existing array that was done by another installer that is done with L feet only. The new array would be higher. And given that we have really good off the shelf approved flashed feet, why would you use anything else? My 2 cents, Jay peltz power On Jun 29, 2012, at 5:16 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: We have used a variety of sealants over the years, and determined simple Henry roofing cement is the best product for use on comp roofing. We also used to bend our own L-foot flashing, which we cut from standard Al coil stock (before all the manufactured options were available). This might be a good option for you in this case. Glenn *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [ mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgre-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Drake *Sent:* Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:40 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? ** Drake Chamberlin**** ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810**** CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ** ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
Bill, Can you provide a link to the product you are using - I found a lot of screws on that site but none called structural. Thanks Chris On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Bill Hoffer suneng...@gmail.com wrote: Mark Lags for me are old hat after using the newer structural screws. I get them local from www.screw-products.com although I know there are more companies out there that make them for the Structural Insulation Panel industry. Thinner than lags with comparable strength, they drive easy with no predrilling, and are less likely to blow out a truss. Come in many different lengths and use a special star head with a built in washer. I use thick butyl tape on the foot and a small rubber washer on the screw head , together they work great! If you want a little more security a dab of the appropriate sealer in the foot slot before finally tightening it down works too. Only way to go on corrugated metal roofs where there is no real option for flashing. Bill On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 3:40 PM, m...@hurshtown.com wrote: My 18V Milwaukee cordless hammer drill has no trouble driving a 5/16 lag into anything I've ever encountered. If you put the lag anywhere near the middle of the rafter it won't split. If it splits, it must be some cheap stuff from Home Depot. Only an engineer with no practical experience would insist on a pilot hole and the resulting reduction in holding strength. I'm assuming the IBC consists of a bunch of bureaucrats that value control over common sense. In this instance flashing offers no benefit, and may even be counter-productive if incorrectly installed and it causes rain to collect under it. My experience is in northern Indiana where it does rain and the wind does blow. (Record 91 mph winds last Thursday.) Less severe weather than Michigan, but close. I use the best silicone caulk Menards has to offer. I've never worried about compatibility. It definitely won't dry up and crack away like the black roof cement some swear by and insist on. 15+ year old silicone caulk is yellowed a bit but that's the only change. If the silicone and shingle aren't getting along, I've never heard them complain. Mark (Disclaimer: Portions of the preceding are the opinions of the author.) Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: Dave Click davecl...@fsec.ucf.edu Date: Mon, July 02, 2012 10:29 am To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org I always thought that installing lag screws was tough enough with pilot holes- I should hit the gym. I'm not a structural PE, but I think that not drilling pilot holes violates the American Wood Council's National Design Specs and therefore violates the IBC too. I would imagine that you'd be much more likely to split your trusses. IBC also requires flashings be used but at least around here inspectors never ask for it (which makes sense- as you all know, Florida never sees wind or rain, and definitely not at the same time). What silicone do you use that's compatible with asphalt shingles? DKC On 2012/7/1 21:13, m...@hurshtown.com wrote: In my 20 year experience of lagging down L feet on shingle roofs in Indiana with a good dollop of silicone caulk under the foot, I've never had an issue. No pre-drilling, just drive the lag home. Drilling a hole first is not necessary, and reduces holding strength. No reason to make a science project out of it and increase cost and labor. Mark Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.orgdrake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org Date: Fri, June 29, 2012 3:09 pm To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgre-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi Jay, There is no room for flashings. The L feet will go very close to the skylights and the flashing would hit the edge of them. Plus there is an existing array that was done by another installer that is done with L feet only. The new array would be higher. And given that we have really good off the shelf approved flashed feet, why would you use anything else? My 2 cents, Jay peltz power On Jun 29, 2012, at 5:16 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: We have used a variety of sealants over the years, and determined simple Henry roofing cement is the best product for use on comp roofing. We also used to bend our own L-foot flashing, which we cut from standard Al coil stock (before all the manufactured options were available). This might be a good option for you in this case. Glenn *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgre-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgre-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
Chris Bronze Star Construction Lags are what I use. I usually use the 5/16 and 1/4 with the most thread I can into the truss without popping out the other side. I have dropped to #7 with more penetrations if the truss warranted it. http://www.screw-products.com/star-drive-construction-lag-screws.htm Here is their strength tests for 5/16, very comparable to lags. I tend to be pretty conservative and use a 2x - 2.5x strength tests safety factor with almost all my fasteners, especially blind attachment to trusses. Full test results are available. http://www.screw-products.com/specs.htm I have had luck with Cannon gasket for butyl or EDPM washers, use .75 dia outer with dia of fastener inner about .25 thick. About $.15 each for 1000, about half that for 2500. Can order direct online. Buytl to me works better since it flows well when tightened. http://www.cannongasket.com/ I believe there are several manufacturers making these types of screws now, so there may be other sources. Hope that helps! Bill On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 6:43 AM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.comwrote: Bill, Can you provide a link to the product you are using - I found a lot of screws on that site but none called structural. Thanks Chris On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Bill Hoffer suneng...@gmail.com wrote: Mark Lags for me are old hat after using the newer structural screws. I get them local from www.screw-products.com although I know there are more companies out there that make them for the Structural Insulation Panel industry. Thinner than lags with comparable strength, they drive easy with no predrilling, and are less likely to blow out a truss. Come in many different lengths and use a special star head with a built in washer. I use thick butyl tape on the foot and a small rubber washer on the screw head , together they work great! If you want a little more security a dab of the appropriate sealer in the foot slot before finally tightening it down works too. Only way to go on corrugated metal roofs where there is no real option for flashing. Bill On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 3:40 PM, m...@hurshtown.com wrote: My 18V Milwaukee cordless hammer drill has no trouble driving a 5/16 lag into anything I've ever encountered. If you put the lag anywhere near the middle of the rafter it won't split. If it splits, it must be some cheap stuff from Home Depot. Only an engineer with no practical experience would insist on a pilot hole and the resulting reduction in holding strength. I'm assuming the IBC consists of a bunch of bureaucrats that value control over common sense. In this instance flashing offers no benefit, and may even be counter-productive if incorrectly installed and it causes rain to collect under it. My experience is in northern Indiana where it does rain and the wind does blow. (Record 91 mph winds last Thursday.) Less severe weather than Michigan, but close. I use the best silicone caulk Menards has to offer. I've never worried about compatibility. It definitely won't dry up and crack away like the black roof cement some swear by and insist on. 15+ year old silicone caulk is yellowed a bit but that's the only change. If the silicone and shingle aren't getting along, I've never heard them complain. Mark (Disclaimer: Portions of the preceding are the opinions of the author.) Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: Dave Click davecl...@fsec.ucf.edu Date: Mon, July 02, 2012 10:29 am To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org I always thought that installing lag screws was tough enough with pilot holes- I should hit the gym. I'm not a structural PE, but I think that not drilling pilot holes violates the American Wood Council's National Design Specs and therefore violates the IBC too. I would imagine that you'd be much more likely to split your trusses. IBC also requires flashings be used but at least around here inspectors never ask for it (which makes sense- as you all know, Florida never sees wind or rain, and definitely not at the same time). What silicone do you use that's compatible with asphalt shingles? DKC On 2012/7/1 21:13, m...@hurshtown.com wrote: In my 20 year experience of lagging down L feet on shingle roofs in Indiana with a good dollop of silicone caulk under the foot, I've never had an issue. No pre-drilling, just drive the lag home. Drilling a hole first is not necessary, and reduces holding strength. No reason to make a science project out of it and increase cost and labor. Mark Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.orgdrake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org Date: Fri, June 29, 2012 3:09 pm To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgre
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
I agree. I would drill a pilot for anything bigger than #12. 5/16 Lags get a 1/8 pilot minimum. Unfortunately, common 1/8 bits are usually pretty short and break off easily. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.comwrote: I don't believe you are correct here. The body of the lag does not do anything for the holding power, it is the threads that prevent pullout. If you drive a 5/16 lag into a 3 x 8 without a pilot hole, you will be putting a lot of pressure into the wood to split it. It might not split every time, it might not split right then, but you are definitely introducing a lot of stress for no good reason. On any of these techniques for mounting, I want to follow the manufacturers recommendations, otherwise how can you be sure if you are right. Without a testing lab, you have no way to know. I think mounting PV systems IS a science project, it takes care and thought to do it right. We do a lot of concrete roof installations in hurricane areas, and mounting keeps me up at night. On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 9:13 PM, m...@hurshtown.com wrote: In my 20 year experience of lagging down L feet on shingle roofs in Indiana with a good dollop of silicone caulk under the foot, I've never had an issue. No pre-drilling, just drive the lag home. Drilling a hole first is not necessary, and reduces holding strength. No reason to make a science project out of it and increase cost and labor. Mark Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org Date: Fri, June 29, 2012 3:09 pm To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi Jay, There is no room for flashings. The L feet will go very close to the skylights and the flashing would hit the edge of them. Plus there is an existing array that was done by another installer that is done with L feet only. The new array would be higher. And given that we have really good off the shelf approved flashed feet, why would you use anything else? My 2 cents, Jay peltz power On Jun 29, 2012, at 5:16 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: We have used a variety of sealants over the years, and determined simple Henry roofing cement is the best product for use on comp roofing. We also used to bend our own L-foot flashing, which we cut from standard Al coil stock (before all the manufactured options were available). This might be a good option for you in this case. Glenn *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [ mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgre-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Drake *Sent:* Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:40 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? ** Drake Chamberlin**** ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810**** CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ** ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
The EcoFasten GF1 flashing is easy to install on a retrofit and will not necessarily add any height to the rail. If you do need to trim the flashings installed around the skylight, then I would recommend adding sealant to these penetrations. We ditch the included lag and use a 5/16 GRK RSS (self tapping structural screw). The combination works great and does not require a pilot hole. RSS: http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/RSS_1_2_information.htm GF1 http://ecofastensolar.com/pdf/GF1%20Cutsheets.pdf Best, Garrison Riegel Project Manager Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 [f] 847-647-9360 www.solarserviceinc.com http://www.solarserviceinc.com/ NABCEP Certified Solar PV and Thermal InstallerT There is no room for flashings. The L feet will go very close to the skylights and the flashing would hit the edge of them. Plus there is an existing array that was done by another installer that is done with L feet only. The new array would be higher. _ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
Getting back to the flashing aspect of this thread, the comment about improperly installed flashings doing more harm than good and the general comments about L feet straight to the roof… Yes, if you install ANYTHING wrong it's counterproductive but if you read the instructions and use common sense then flashing is a no-brainer. L feet straight to the roof not only voids roof warranties, but they also violate ALL roofing best practices and it makes our industry look bad. No roofer or roof manufacturer would ever hold a warranty on a roof with just L feet attached to it. We wouldn't want a roofer making electrical connections or designs on a PV system without the right training so why would we want to violate their standards when we penetrate their roofs? Ryan On 02/07/12 4:40 PM, m...@hurshtown.com m...@hurshtown.com wrote: My 18V Milwaukee cordless hammer drill has no trouble driving a 5/16 lag into anything I've ever encountered. If you put the lag anywhere near the middle of the rafter it won't split. If it splits, it must be some cheap stuff from Home Depot. Only an engineer with no practical experience would insist on a pilot hole and the resulting reduction in holding strength. I'm assuming the IBC consists of a bunch of bureaucrats that value control over common sense. In this instance flashing offers no benefit, and may even be counter-productive if incorrectly installed and it causes rain to collect under it. My experience is in northern Indiana where it does rain and the wind does blow. (Record 91 mph winds last Thursday.) Less severe weather than Michigan, but close. I use the best silicone caulk Menards has to offer. I've never worried about compatibility. It definitely won't dry up and crack away like the black roof cement some swear by and insist on. 15+ year old silicone caulk is yellowed a bit but that's the only change. If the silicone and shingle aren't getting along, I've never heard them complain. Mark (Disclaimer: Portions of the preceding are the opinions of the author.) ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
+1 on the use of structural screws. We ran an article about lag screws a couple years ago: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP3_4_pg70_Shelly One of the things that surprised me when I read this manuscript is how variable lag screws are in terms of construction and quality. Besides the convenience of being able to drive a structural screw without a pilot hole, the engineering specs are likely better documented and the manufacturing tolerances are probably tighter as well. FWIW: I think that using unflashed attachments in these litigious times is unwise. It's not consistent with best practices in the construction industry. It does not meet building codes. It violates the roof warranty. It makes your competition look good. We ran our first article on this topic 4 years ago, in our inaugural issue of SolarPro magazine: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg72_Fain The industry has come a long way since then, both in terms of awareness and in terms of off-the-shelf flashed attachment options. There are so many quality flashed attachment solutions to chose from now that I'm not sure why anyone would knowingly expose themselves to a possible construction negligence claim. Drive straight, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Garrison Riegel wrote: The EcoFasten GF1 flashing is easy to install on a retrofit and will not necessarily add any height to the rail. If you do need to trim the flashings installed around the skylight, then I would recommend adding sealant to these penetrations. We ditch the included lag and use a 5/16” GRK RSS (self tapping structural screw). The combination works great and does not require a pilot hole. RSS: http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/RSS_1_2_information.htm GF1 http://ecofastensolar.com/pdf/GF1%20Cutsheets.pdf Best, Garrison Riegel Project Manager Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 [f] 847-647-9360 www.solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified Solar PV and Thermal Installer™ “There is no room for flashings. The L feet will go very close to the skylights and the flashing would hit the edge of them. Plus there is an existing array that was done by another installer that is done with L feet only. The new array would be higher.” ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
I haven't read up on the mentioned structural screws yet, but do they specifically state that they can be driven without a pilot hole? What is the justification and how are they different so that they won't cause a board to split under pressure? Does anyone have some good info on this? benn Sent from a 'smart' phone, with tiny keys. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. On 2012-07-03, at 3:53 PM, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com wrote: +1 on the use of structural screws. We ran an article about lag screws a couple years ago: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP3_4_pg70_Shelly One of the things that surprised me when I read this manuscript is how variable lag screws are in terms of construction and quality. Besides the convenience of being able to drive a structural screw without a pilot hole, the engineering specs are likely better documented and the manufacturing tolerances are probably tighter as well. FWIW: I think that using unflashed attachments in these litigious times is unwise. It's not consistent with best practices in the construction industry. It does not meet building codes. It violates the roof warranty. It makes your competition look good. We ran our first article on this topic 4 years ago, in our inaugural issue of SolarPro magazine: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg72_Fain The industry has come a long way since then, both in terms of awareness and in terms of off-the-shelf flashed attachment options. There are so many quality flashed attachment solutions to chose from now that I'm not sure why anyone would knowingly expose themselves to a possible construction negligence claim. Drive straight, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Garrison Riegel wrote: The EcoFasten GF1 flashing is easy to install on a retrofit and will not necessarily add any height to the rail. If you do need to trim the flashings installed around the skylight, then I would recommend adding sealant to these penetrations. We ditch the included lag and use a 5/16” GRK RSS (self tapping structural screw). The combination works great and does not require a pilot hole. RSS: http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/RSS_1_2_information.htm GF1 http://ecofastensolar.com/pdf/GF1%20Cutsheets.pdf Best, Garrison Riegel Project Manager Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 [f] 847-647-9360 www.solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified Solar PV and Thermal Installer™ “There is no room for flashings. The L feet will go very close to the skylights and the flashing would hit the edge of them. Plus there is an existing array that was done by another installer that is done with L feet only. The new array would be higher.” ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
The GRK fasteners mentioned in a previous post associated with the Ecofasten flashing and L feet are self-drilling, but a pilot hole is still helpful in some instances. Very nice structural fasteners – high quality stainless, extremely course thread to increase pull out value and they use a T30 bit to drive. Rich From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn At DayStarSolar Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 6:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof I haven't read up on the mentioned structural screws yet, but do they specifically state that they can be driven without a pilot hole? What is the justification and how are they different so that they won't cause a board to split under pressure? Does anyone have some good info on this? benn Sent from a 'smart' phone, with tiny keys. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. On 2012-07-03, at 3:53 PM, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com wrote: +1 on the use of structural screws. We ran an article about lag screws a couple years ago: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP3_4_pg70_Shelly http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP3_4_pg70_Shelly One of the things that surprised me when I read this manuscript is how variable lag screws are in terms of construction and quality. Besides the convenience of being able to drive a structural screw without a pilot hole, the engineering specs are likely better documented and the manufacturing tolerances are probably tighter as well. FWIW: I think that using unflashed attachments in these litigious times is unwise. It's not consistent with best practices in the construction industry. It does not meet building codes. It violates the roof warranty. It makes your competition look good. We ran our first article on this topic 4 years ago, in our inaugural issue of SolarPro magazine: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg72_Fain http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg72_Fain The industry has come a long way since then, both in terms of awareness and in terms of off-the-shelf flashed attachment options. There are so many quality flashed attachment solutions to chose from now that I'm not sure why anyone would knowingly expose themselves to a possible construction negligence claim. Drive straight, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Garrison Riegel wrote: The EcoFasten GF1 flashing is easy to install on a retrofit and will not necessarily add any height to the rail. If you do need to trim the flashings installed around the skylight, then I would recommend adding sealant to these penetrations. We ditch the included lag and use a 5/16” GRK RSS (self tapping structural screw). The combination works great and does not require a pilot hole. RSS: http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/RSS_1_2_information.htm GF1 http://ecofastensolar.com/pdf/GF1%20Cutsheets.pdf Best, Garrison Riegel Project Manager Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 [f] 847-647-9360 www.solarserviceinc.com http://www.solarserviceinc.com/ NABCEP Certified Solar PV and Thermal Installer™ “There is no room for flashings. The L feet will go very close to the skylights and the flashing would hit the edge of them. Plus there is an existing array that was done by another installer that is done with L feet only. The new array would be higher.” _ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
Thanks for the information, I really like these fasteners. Bronze not stainless? We normally use stainless for everything. Given our coastal location, we want to avoid corrosion. On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Bill Hoffer suneng...@gmail.com wrote: Chris Bronze Star Construction Lags are what I use. I usually use the 5/16 and 1/4 with the most thread I can into the truss without popping out the other side. I have dropped to #7 with more penetrations if the truss warranted it. http://www.screw-products.com/star-drive-construction-lag-screws.htm Here is their strength tests for 5/16, very comparable to lags. I tend to be pretty conservative and use a 2x - 2.5x strength tests safety factor with almost all my fasteners, especially blind attachment to trusses. Full test results are available. http://www.screw-products.com/specs.htm I have had luck with Cannon gasket for butyl or EDPM washers, use .75 dia outer with dia of fastener inner about .25 thick. About $.15 each for 1000, about half that for 2500. Can order direct online. Buytl to me works better since it flows well when tightened. http://www.cannongasket.com/ I believe there are several manufacturers making these types of screws now, so there may be other sources. Hope that helps! Bill On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 6:43 AM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.comwrote: Bill, Can you provide a link to the product you are using - I found a lot of screws on that site but none called structural. Thanks Chris On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Bill Hoffer suneng...@gmail.com wrote: Mark Lags for me are old hat after using the newer structural screws. I get them local from www.screw-products.com although I know there are more companies out there that make them for the Structural Insulation Panel industry. Thinner than lags with comparable strength, they drive easy with no predrilling, and are less likely to blow out a truss. Come in many different lengths and use a special star head with a built in washer. I use thick butyl tape on the foot and a small rubber washer on the screw head , together they work great! If you want a little more security a dab of the appropriate sealer in the foot slot before finally tightening it down works too. Only way to go on corrugated metal roofs where there is no real option for flashing. Bill On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 3:40 PM, m...@hurshtown.com wrote: My 18V Milwaukee cordless hammer drill has no trouble driving a 5/16 lag into anything I've ever encountered. If you put the lag anywhere near the middle of the rafter it won't split. If it splits, it must be some cheap stuff from Home Depot. Only an engineer with no practical experience would insist on a pilot hole and the resulting reduction in holding strength. I'm assuming the IBC consists of a bunch of bureaucrats that value control over common sense. In this instance flashing offers no benefit, and may even be counter-productive if incorrectly installed and it causes rain to collect under it. My experience is in northern Indiana where it does rain and the wind does blow. (Record 91 mph winds last Thursday.) Less severe weather than Michigan, but close. I use the best silicone caulk Menards has to offer. I've never worried about compatibility. It definitely won't dry up and crack away like the black roof cement some swear by and insist on. 15+ year old silicone caulk is yellowed a bit but that's the only change. If the silicone and shingle aren't getting along, I've never heard them complain. Mark (Disclaimer: Portions of the preceding are the opinions of the author.) Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: Dave Click davecl...@fsec.ucf.edu Date: Mon, July 02, 2012 10:29 am To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org I always thought that installing lag screws was tough enough with pilot holes- I should hit the gym. I'm not a structural PE, but I think that not drilling pilot holes violates the American Wood Council's National Design Specs and therefore violates the IBC too. I would imagine that you'd be much more likely to split your trusses. IBC also requires flashings be used but at least around here inspectors never ask for it (which makes sense- as you all know, Florida never sees wind or rain, and definitely not at the same time). What silicone do you use that's compatible with asphalt shingles? DKC On 2012/7/1 21:13, m...@hurshtown.com wrote: In my 20 year experience of lagging down L feet on shingle roofs in Indiana with a good dollop of silicone caulk under the foot, I've never had an issue. No pre-drilling, just drive the lag home. Drilling a hole first is not necessary, and reduces holding strength. No reason to make a science project out of it and increase cost and labor. Mark Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
i wasn't going to enter into this discussion, but this posting prompted me. my most recent job was done with the assistance of the customer. he and i have a long working history, my being his employee some 25 years ago installing shw systems in the area, and now he hiring me to do his personal home's pv system. he insisted on straight L foot mounting without flashings... and i have to agree. in the 25 to 30 years since we did those shw systems, not a single one has leaked. plus, the installation was at the roof ridgeline, so pv quick mounts wouldn't have worked anyway. we put 2 X 8 blocking in the attic between the trusses to acomodate the mounting bolts and used a nice fattie gob of black silicone on each foot, which gooshed out when tightened. the mount will easily outlast the roof... leak free. honestly, i don't care what the ubc/ibs says. if done properly, these kinds of mounts are bombproof. years of experience backs this up. also, i have seen plenty of 'code compliant' oatey no-caulk sewer vent flashings with rotten rubber leaking into homes to know flashed penetrations are no panacea either. todd On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:53pm, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com said: +1 on the use of structural screws. We ran an article about lag screws a couple years ago: [http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP3_4_pg70_Shelly] http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP3_4_pg70_Shelly One of the things that surprised me when I read this manuscript is how variable lag screws are in terms of construction and quality. Besides the convenience of being able to drive a structural screw without a pilot hole, the engineering specs are likely better documented and the manufacturing tolerances are probably tighter as well. FWIW: I think that using unflashed attachments in these litigious times is unwise. It's not consistent with best practices in the construction industry. It does not meet building codes. It violates the roof warranty. It makes your competition look good. We ran our first article on this topic 4 years ago, in our inaugural issue of SolarPro magazine: [http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg72_Fain] http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg72_Fain The industry has come a long way since then, both in terms of awareness and in terms of off-the-shelf flashed attachment options. There are so many quality flashed attachment solutions to chose from now that I'm not sure why anyone would knowingly expose themselves to a possible construction negligence claim. Drive straight, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ [mailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.com] david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Garrison Riegel wrote: The EcoFasten GF1 flashing is easy to install on a retrofit and will not necessarily add any height to the rail. If you do need to trim the flashings installed around the skylight, then I would recommend adding sealant to these penetrations. We ditch the included lag and use a 5/16” GRK RSS (self tapping structural screw). The combination works great and does not require a pilot hole. RSS: [http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/RSS_1_2_information.htm] http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/RSS_1_2_information.htm GF1 [http://ecofastensolar.com/pdf/GF1%20Cutsheets.pdf] http://ecofastensolar.com/pdf/GF1%20Cutsheets.pdf Best, Garrison Riegel Project Manager Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 [f] 847-647-9360 [http://www.solarserviceinc.com/] www.solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified Solar PV and Thermal Installer™ “There is no room for flashings. The L feet will go very close to the skylights and the flashing would hit the edge of them. Plus there is an existing array that was done by another installer that is done with L feet only. The new array would be higher.” ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: [mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org] RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive:
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
I've found that the Flashed L-Foot connection costs about $0.10/w on a typical residential system, and only adds about 1/4-1/2 to the height, which can be minimized using the slotted holes in a typical L-Foot. We need a lot of attachments for 172 mph design wind speeds around here. Flashings at $500 for a 5kW seems high, especially now as the percentage of the system price increases. That being said, I would install L-Foot flashings on my own roof - no exceptions. On the other hand, I've seen sealed lag screw connections work with solar pool heating systems for decades without indication of problems. A variety of sealants were used in the old days but most recently Sikaflex 1A (which incidentally is not indicated for asphaltic roofs) and Geocell 2300 have worked great. My 10 cents, :) Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 10:49 AM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: I have had the opportunity in the past few years to learn a lot about good roofing waterproofing practices according to the national roofers association. They don't agree that caulk works as the primary means of sealant, which is what you are doing with an L foot. And given that we have really good off the shelf approved flashed feet, why would you use anything else? My 2 cents, Jay peltz power On Jun 29, 2012, at 5:16 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: We have used a variety of sealants over the years, and determined simple Henry roofing cement is the best product for use on comp roofing. ** ** We also used to bend our own L-foot flashing, which we cut from standard Al coil stock (before all the manufactured options were available). This might be a good option for you in this case. ** ** ** ** ** ** Glenn ** ** *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Drake *Sent:* Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:40 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof ** ** I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
I always thought that installing lag screws was tough enough with pilot holes- I should hit the gym. I'm not a structural PE, but I think that not drilling pilot holes violates the American Wood Council's National Design Specs and therefore violates the IBC too. I would imagine that you'd be much more likely to split your trusses. IBC also requires flashings be used but at least around here inspectors never ask for it (which makes sense- as you all know, Florida never sees wind or rain, and definitely not at the same time). What silicone do you use that's compatible with asphalt shingles? DKC On 2012/7/1 21:13, m...@hurshtown.com wrote: In my 20 year experience of lagging down L feet on shingle roofs in Indiana with a good dollop of silicone caulk under the foot, I've never had an issue. No pre-drilling, just drive the lag home. Drilling a hole first is not necessary, and reduces holding strength. No reason to make a science project out of it and increase cost and labor. Mark Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org Date: Fri, June 29, 2012 3:09 pm To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi Jay, There is no room for flashings. The L feet will go very close to the skylights and the flashing would hit the edge of them. Plus there is an existing array that was done by another installer that is done with L feet only. The new array would be higher. And given that we have really good off the shelf approved flashed feet, why would you use anything else? My 2 cents, Jay peltz power On Jun 29, 2012, at 5:16 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: We have used a variety of sealants over the years, and determined simple Henry roofing cement is the best product for use on comp roofing. We also used to bend our own L-foot flashing, which we cut from standard Al coil stock (before all the manufactured options were available). This might be a good option for you in this case. Glenn *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Drake *Sent:* Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:40 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
For many years I installed L-feet with galvanized step flashings adhered under the shingle row above the penetration. This provides a mechanical barrier and can be very durable if the flashing is well secured. - Andrew Sent from my iPhone On Jun 28, 2012, at 5:39 PM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
My 18V Milwaukee cordless hammer drill has no trouble driving a 5/16" lag into anything I've ever encountered.If you put the lag anywhere near the middle of the rafter it won't split. If it splits, it must be some cheap stuff from Home Depot. Only an engineer with no practical experience would insist on a pilot hole and the resulting reduction in holding strength. I'm assuming the IBC consists of a bunch of bureaucrats that value control over common sense.In this instance flashing offers no benefit, and may even be counter-productive if incorrectly installed and it causes rain to collect under it. My experience is in northern Indiana where it does rain and the wind does blow. (Record 91 mph winds last Thursday.) Less severe weather than Michigan, but close.I use the best silicone caulk Menards has to offer. I've never worried about compatibility. It definitely won't dry up and crack away like the black roof cement some swear by and insist on. 15+ year old silicone caulk is yellowed a bit but that's the only change.If the silicone and shingle aren't getting along, I've never heard them complain.Mark(Disclaimer: Portions of theprecedingare the opinions of the author.) Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: Dave Click davecl...@fsec.ucf.edu Date: Mon, July 02, 2012 10:29 am To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org I always thought that installing lag screws was tough enough with pilot holes- I should hit the gym. I'm not a structural PE, but I think that not drilling pilot holes violates the American Wood Council's National Design Specs and therefore violates the IBC too. I would imagine that you'd be much more likely to split your trusses. IBC also requires flashings be used but at least around here inspectors never ask for it (which makes sense- as you all know, Florida never sees wind or rain, and definitely not at the same time). What silicone do you use that's compatible with asphalt shingles? DKC On 2012/7/1 21:13, m...@hurshtown.com wrote: In my 20 year experience of lagging down L feet on shingle roofs in Indiana with a good dollop of silicone caulk under the foot, I've never had an issue. No pre-drilling, just drive the lag home. Drilling a hole first is not necessary, and reduces holding strength. No reason to make a science project out of it and increase cost and labor. Mark Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org Date: Fri, June 29, 2012 3:09 pm To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi Jay, There is no room for flashings. The L feet will go very close to the skylights and the flashing would hit the edge of them. Plus there is an existing array that was done by another installer that is done with L feet only. The new array would be higher. And given that we have really good off the shelf approved flashed feet, why would you use anything else? My 2 cents, Jay peltz power On Jun 29, 2012, at 5:16 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: We have used a variety of sealants over the years, and determined simple Henry roofing cement is the best product for use on comp roofing. We also used to bend our own L-foot flashing, which we cut from standard Al coil stock (before all the manufactured options were available). This might be a good option for you in this case. Glenn *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Drake *Sent:* Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:40 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
How do you flash your L feet without using a standoff? At 07:49 AM 7/2/2012, you wrote: I've found that the Flashed L-Foot connection costs about $0.10/w on a typical residential system, and only adds about 1/4-1/2 to the height, which can be minimized using the slotted holes in a typical L-Foot. We need a lot of attachments for 172 mph design wind speeds around here. Flashings at $500 for a 5kW seems high, especially now as the percentage of the system price increases. That being said, I would install L-Foot flashings on my own roof - no exceptions. On the other hand, I've seen sealed lag screw connections work with solar pool heating systems for decades without indication of problems. A variety of sealants were used in the old days but most recently Sikaflex 1A (which incidentally is not indicated for asphaltic roofs) and Geocell 2300 have worked great. My 10 cents, :) Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 10:49 AM, jay peltz mailto:j...@asis.comj...@asis.com wrote: I have had the opportunity in the past few years to learn a lot about good roofing waterproofing practices according to the national roofers association. They don't agree that caulk works as the primary means of sealant, which is what you are doing with an L foot. And given that we have really good off the shelf approved flashed feet, why would you use anything else? My 2 cents, Jay peltz power On Jun 29, 2012, at 5:16 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: We have used a variety of sealants over the years, and determined simple Henry roofing cement is the best product for use on comp roofing. We also used to bend our own L-foot flashing, which we cut from standard Al coil stock (before all the manufactured options were available). This might be a good option for you in this case. Glenn From: mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgre-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgre-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgRE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orghttp://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orghttp://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmwww.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.orgwww.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
In the early days before a lot of the manufactured mounting systems became prominent we used a stainless rod hanger. it was 6 inches long with 4 in of lag and 2 inches of thread. we'd put on a fender washer and bolt, filled the hole with a product called through the roof - a fifty year sealant. We had used power strut for years as a commercial electrical contractor so we'd put strut between two stainless bolts and washers then use a custom t-clamp with bolt and a spring nut. There were no flashings, just a good seal under the washer. I've got dozens of systems installed like that, years old. No leaks. The important thing was hitting the rafter in the center and getting good torque on the bolt. I've come in behind other contractors over the years to fix leaks and more often than not they missed the rafter or were on the edge so it eventually became loose. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Monday, July 2, 2012 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof How do you flash your L feet without using a standoff? At 07:49 AM 7/2/2012, you wrote: I've found that the Flashed L-Foot connection costs about $0.10/w on a typical residential system, and only adds about 1/4-1/2 to the height, which can be minimized using the slotted holes in a typical L-Foot. We need a lot of attachments for 172 mph design wind speeds around here. Flashings at $500 for a 5kW seems high, especially now as the percentage of the system price increases. That being said, I would install L-Foot flashings on my own roof - no exceptions. On the other hand, I've seen sealed lag screw connections work with solar pool heating systems for decades without indication of problems. A variety of sealants were used in the old days but most recently Sikaflex 1A (which incidentally is not indicated for asphaltic roofs) and Geocell 2300 have worked great. My 10 cents, :) Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 10:49 AM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: I have had the opportunity in the past few years to learn a lot about good roofing waterproofing practices according to the national roofers association. They don't agree that caulk works as the primary means of sealant, which is what you are doing with an L foot. And given that we have really good off the shelf approved flashed feet, why would you use anything else? My 2 cents, Jay peltz power On Jun 29, 2012, at 5:16 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: We have used a variety of sealants over the years, and determined simple Henry roofing cement is the best product for use on comp roofing. We also used to bend our own L-foot flashing, which we cut from standard Al coil stock (before all the manufactured options were available). This might be a good option for you in this case. Glenn From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
Mark, You wrote, If you put the lag anywhere near the middle of the rafter it won't split. If it splits, it must be some cheap stuff from Home Depot. Only an engineer with no practical experience would insist on a pilot hole and the resulting reduction in holding strength. Drilling a properly sized and depth pilot hole will -reduce the possibility of the rafter splitting, -reduce further opening an existing split and -reduce the chance of splitting a rafter when lagging directly into solid knot that will surely split without a pilot hole ...and if the whole roof is built with the same 'cheap stuff from home depot' then wouldn't you want to reduce the chance of every penetration/rafter splitting and compromising the integrity of the installation? A properly sized pilot bit will not reduce the pullout or shear strength of a lag bolt. There are charts for reference for different types of wood. Anyone who works with wood and where splitting, structural or aesthetics are a concern (carpenter, cabinet maker, framerrooftop PV installer) should know that wood splitting is significantly reduced when a pilot hole is used. It is a 'best practice' method. I don't sweat over using just L-feet, because when I do I'm confidant that I'm using an approved sealant and enough of it to make each hole I drill in the roof leak-free, but I will not deny that a flashed roof penetration is a superior and first choice method. Cheers, Benn DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. www.daystarsolar.ca 780-906-7807 Certified Construction Electrician Solar Photovoltaic Systems Certified Certificate # 0007S HAVE A SUNNY DAY On 02/07/12 4:40 PM, m...@hurshtown.com m...@hurshtown.com wrote: My 18V Milwaukee cordless hammer drill has no trouble driving a 5/16 lag into anything I've ever encountered. If you put the lag anywhere near the middle of the rafter it won't split. If it splits, it must be some cheap stuff from Home Depot. Only an engineer with no practical experience would insist on a pilot hole and the resulting reduction in holding strength. I'm assuming the IBC consists of a bunch of bureaucrats that value control over common sense. In this instance flashing offers no benefit, and may even be counter-productive if incorrectly installed and it causes rain to collect under it. My experience is in northern Indiana where it does rain and the wind does blow. (Record 91 mph winds last Thursday.) Less severe weather than Michigan, but close. I use the best silicone caulk Menards has to offer. I've never worried about compatibility. It definitely won't dry up and crack away like the black roof cement some swear by and insist on. 15+ year old silicone caulk is yellowed a bit but that's the only change. If the silicone and shingle aren't getting along, I've never heard them complain. Mark (Disclaimer: Portions of the preceding are the opinions of the author.) Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: Dave Click davecl...@fsec.ucf.edu Date: Mon, July 02, 2012 10:29 am To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org I always thought that installing lag screws was tough enough with pilot holes- I should hit the gym. I'm not a structural PE, but I think that not drilling pilot holes violates the American Wood Council's National Design Specs and therefore violates the IBC too. I would imagine that you'd be much more likely to split your trusses. IBC also requires flashings be used but at least around here inspectors never ask for it (which makes sense- as you all know, Florida never sees wind or rain, and definitely not at the same time). What silicone do you use that's compatible with asphalt shingles? DKC On 2012/7/1 21:13, m...@hurshtown.com wrote: In my 20 year experience of lagging down L feet on shingle roofs in Indiana with a good dollop of silicone caulk under the foot, I've never had an issue. No pre-drilling, just drive the lag home. Drilling a hole first is not necessary, and reduces holding strength. No reason to make a science project out of it and increase cost and labor. Mark Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org Date: Fri, June 29, 2012 3:09 pm To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi Jay, There is no room for flashings. The L feet will go very close to the skylights and the flashing would hit the edge of them. Plus there is an existing array that was done by another installer that is done with L feet only. The new array would be higher. And given that we have really good off the shelf approved flashed feet, why would you use anything else? My 2 cents, Jay peltz power On Jun 29, 2012, at 5:16 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: We have used a variety of sealants
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
In my 20 year experience of lagging down L feet on shingle roofs in Indiana with a gooddollopof silicone caulk under the foot, I've never had an issue. No pre-drilling, just drive the lag home. Drilling a hole first is not necessary, and reduces holding strength. No reason to make a science project out of it and increase cost and labor.Mark Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org Date: Fri, June 29, 2012 3:09 pm To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi Jay, There is no room for flashings. The L feet will go very close to the skylights and the flashing would hit the edge of them. Plus there is an existing array that was done by another installer that is done with L feet only. The new array would be higher. And given that we have really good off the shelf approved flashed feet, why would you use anything else? My 2 cents, Jay peltz power On Jun 29, 2012, at 5:16 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: We have used a variety of sealants over the years, and determined simple Henry roofing cement is the best product for use on comp roofing. We also used to bend our own L-foot flashing, which we cut from standard Al coil stock (before all the manufactured options were available). This might be a good option for you in this case.Glenn From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
At 06:16 PM 6/29/2012, you wrote: Would it be possible/reasonable to add flashed mounts to the existing array? Not without reinstalling. There have been no problems with the existing array's penetrations. Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
Early on I learned to fill the pre drilled hole with a non asphalt eating caulk like geo cell (Or something similar), and then used two layers of a polybutyl tape and stainless hardware. The trick is not to lag down the L-feet so tight that it smooshes out all the poly. You also need to be real careful if you need to work off the rails.. If you do (Depending on pitch), It might be a good idea to double up on L feet or use a chicken ladder (Just something to spread your weight). Good luck. dbDan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44 Original Message Subject: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org Date: Thu, June 28, 2012 6:39 pm To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
We have used a variety of sealants over the years, and determined simple Henry roofing cement is the best product for use on comp roofing. We also used to bend our own L-foot flashing, which we cut from standard Al coil stock (before all the manufactured options were available). This might be a good option for you in this case. Glenn From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV attachment: flashing.jpg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
I have had the opportunity in the past few years to learn a lot about good roofing waterproofing practices according to the national roofers association. They don't agree that caulk works as the primary means of sealant, which is what you are doing with an L foot. And given that we have really good off the shelf approved flashed feet, why would you use anything else? My 2 cents, Jay peltz power On Jun 29, 2012, at 5:16 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: We have used a variety of sealants over the years, and determined simple Henry roofing cement is the best product for use on comp roofing. We also used to bend our own L-foot flashing, which we cut from standard Al coil stock (before all the manufactured options were available). This might be a good option for you in this case. Glenn From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
If you have to go down this road of not using flashed penetrations, be very diligent. Dan makes a couple of great points make sure the sealant you use is compatible (and a superior product) for the roof type you are working on, don't over tighten as that will just damage the shingle further and don't walk/stand directly on the rails/l-feet. Locate your rafter, drill pilot hole, squeeze some sealant 'into' the hole (easiest if you don't cut the hole in the sealant tube to big) and 'just the right amount' around the hole as well so that when you install the l-foot it evenly squishes the sealant out around all edges. The pilot hole should be at least as long as your lag bolt but if your pilot hole goes all the way thru the rafter then any sealant applied into the pilot hole will be forced out the other end and not be effective, so make sure your pilot bit and lag bolt are not greater than the rafter+sheathing+shingle+l-foot distance. Always keep your feet on the roof. You can use the l-feet/rails as a support for resting the side of you boot against, but avoid/don't cause any undue force on the lag bolts, this will weaken them, possibly bend them and possibly open them up for water penetration. Cheers, benn DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. www.daystarsolar.ca 780-906-7807 Certified Construction Electrician Solar Photovoltaic Systems Certified Certificate # 0007S HAVE A SUNNY DAY On 29/06/12 4:03 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote: Early on I learned to fill the pre drilled hole with a non asphalt eating caulk like geo cell (Or something similar), and then used two layers of a polybutyl tape and stainless hardware. The trick is not to lag down the L-feet so tight that it smooshes out all the poly. You also need to be real careful if you need to work off the rails.. If you do (Depending on pitch), It might be a good idea to double up on L feet or use a chicken ladder (Just something to spread your weight). Good luck. db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 Original Message Subject: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org Date: Thu, June 28, 2012 6:39 pm To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
Hi Jay, There is no room for flashings. The L feet will go very close to the skylights and the flashing would hit the edge of them. Plus there is an existing array that was done by another installer that is done with L feet only. The new array would be higher. And given that we have really good off the shelf approved flashed feet, why would you use anything else? My 2 cents, Jay peltz power On Jun 29, 2012, at 5:16 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: We have used a variety of sealants over the years, and determined simple Henry roofing cement is the best product for use on comp roofing. We also used to bend our own L-foot flashing, which we cut from standard Al coil stock (before all the manufactured options were available). This might be a good option for you in this case. Glenn From: mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgre-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
Drake, This won't help with the height issue, but maybe you could trim the flashing where it is close to the skylights? Or is it possible to access the underside of the roof beside the skylight so you can add a spanner btwn the rafters so you can have room for the flashing? No answer for the height issue. But if shadowing is not an issue maybe you can sell it on the basis of doing it right and depending on personal preference, maybe the varying heights will look good/interesting/different/acceptable?!? Cheers, benn Sent from a 'smart' phone, with tiny keys. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. On 2012-06-29, at 1:10 PM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: Hi Jay, There is no room for flashings. The L feet will go very close to the skylights and the flashing would hit the edge of them. Plus there is an existing array that was done by another installer that is done with L feet only. The new array would be higher. And given that we have really good off the shelf approved flashed feet, why would you use anything else? My 2 cents, Jay peltz power On Jun 29, 2012, at 5:16 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: We have used a variety of sealants over the years, and determined simple Henry roofing cement is the best product for use on comp roofing. We also used to bend our own L-foot flashing, which we cut from standard Al coil stock (before all the manufactured options were available). This might be a good option for you in this case. Glenn From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
Would it be possible/reasonable to add flashed mounts to the existing array? Jesse Sent from my iPhone On Jun 29, 2012, at 2:42 PM, Benn At DayStarSolar b...@daystarsolar.ca wrote: Drake, This won't help with the height issue, but maybe you could trim the flashing where it is close to the skylights? Or is it possible to access the underside of the roof beside the skylight so you can add a spanner btwn the rafters so you can have room for the flashing? No answer for the height issue. But if shadowing is not an issue maybe you can sell it on the basis of doing it right and depending on personal preference, maybe the varying heights will look good/interesting/different/acceptable?!? Cheers, benn Sent from a 'smart' phone, with tiny keys. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. On 2012-06-29, at 1:10 PM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: Hi Jay, There is no room for flashings. The L feet will go very close to the skylights and the flashing would hit the edge of them. Plus there is an existing array that was done by another installer that is done with L feet only. The new array would be higher. And given that we have really good off the shelf approved flashed feet, why would you use anything else? My 2 cents, Jay peltz power On Jun 29, 2012, at 5:16 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: We have used a variety of sealants over the years, and determined simple Henry roofing cement is the best product for use on comp roofing. We also used to bend our own L-foot flashing, which we cut from standard Al coil stock (before all the manufactured options were available). This might be a good option for you in this case. Glenn From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be available for flashings to center over rafters. I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
