[RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for Comm site

[Hilton Dier]

Bill

My customer alarm just went off. This potential client is putting in a comm 
site at 7000’ and is concerned about the *cost* of an inverter? I can 
understand the desire for reliability, and so going for direct DC. But given 
the logistics and engineering of a high altitude remote site I’d be cautious 
about doing a job for someone penny pinching on an inverter.

Not exactly the advice you were asking for, but it jumped out at me. 

Hilton

Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for Comm site

[glenn.b...@glbcc.com]

Maybe an application of Rain-x to the modules would help. Of course not on 
anything with a topical anti-reflective surface.
Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos.
-- Original message--From: frenergyDate: Sat, Dec 1, 2018 1:20 PMTo: 
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for 
Comm site
Sierra wrenches,

             My 30 years of installation has never included comm sites 
on mountain tops but I took the job.

I am proposing mounting PVs vertically towards the top of the south wall 
of a 2 story block building to avoid snow build-up.  I assume a 
pole-mount would be next in line if we needed more sq ft of PV.  
However, even if vertical, will Sierra snow (its a special breed) still 
wind-pack on, stay for weeks, days, not at all?  This site is on the 
Pacific crest at 7,000 ft.

             And then  due to potential temps down to -30F, I assume a 
WELL insulated battery box (maybe even back-up heat?). It seems the best 
choice would be to use AGM/VRLA/Gel?    Part my reason for looking for 
help is my customer's loads will only be 12 volt and wants to avoid the 
cost of an inverter.  This seems a little risky not to have an 
inverter/charger for back-up. Appreciate the advice.

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for Comm site

[Ray]

Has any one tried insulating the back side of the solar module? I know 
normally that would be a really bad idea, but if the system was over 
designed in the summer, and flat on the wall, you could get away with 
it.  That dark surface under the glass with 2" of foam board backing 
would probably get warm enough to shed at least some of the build up, 
when the sun came out.  I've seen solar thermal systems go to almost 300 
degrees F with air temps below freezing.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 12/1/18 4:27 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote:

Bill,
I’ve installed dozens of mountain top systems starting just North of 
you, and spreading from the coast to the Nevada border and up into 
Central Oregon. Fire lookouts, Repeaters, Cell towers, ect…. Cascade 
and Coastal Cement. I count on arrays at 60 degrees getting entombed 
in snow and ice for weeks. I’ve seen the walls of most buildings 
encased in ice too! Lookouts get shut down for six months, and maybe 
minimal loads stay on, like weather equipment. When full time power is 
required, then propane or diesel generators and room heaters are 
installed, often tandem generators that alternate usage and act as 
backups. Many of my previous customers required a rapid response if 
there was a power failure and that meant serious adventure. I’m kind 
of over it now, many of those clients technicians also take care of 
the power end of things.

Michael

On Dec 1, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Sam Haraldson > wrote:


However, even if vertical, will Sierra snow (its a special breed)
still
wind-pack on, stay for weeks, days, not at all? This site is on the
Pacific crest at 7,000 ft.


Yes, the "Sierra cement" is not the same as the "cold smoke" snow we 
get in my part of the country but I see that snow tends to pretty 
easily slough off arrays that are at and above the 35 deg angle.  
Even the wettest Sierra stuff sure doesn't seem like it could stick 
to glass at a 90 degree angle.  I suspect you could get away with 60 
deg, have better production, and still shed the snow.


--
Sam Haraldson, Installation Manager
onsiteenergyinc.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for Comm site

[Michael Morningstar]

Bill,
I’ve installed dozens of mountain top systems starting just North of you, and 
spreading from the coast to the Nevada border and up into Central Oregon. Fire 
lookouts, Repeaters, Cell towers, ect…. Cascade and Coastal Cement. I count on 
arrays at 60 degrees getting entombed in snow and ice for weeks. I’ve seen the 
walls of most buildings encased in ice too! Lookouts get shut down for six 
months, and maybe minimal loads stay on, like weather equipment. When full time 
power is required, then propane or diesel generators and room heaters are 
installed, often tandem generators that alternate usage and act as backups. 
Many of my previous customers required a rapid response if there was a power 
failure and that meant serious adventure. I’m kind of over it now, many of 
those clients technicians also take care of the power end of things.
Michael

> On Dec 1, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Sam Haraldson  wrote:
> 
> However, even if vertical, will Sierra snow (its a special breed) still 
> wind-pack on, stay for weeks, days, not at all?  This site is on the 
> Pacific crest at 7,000 ft.
> 
> Yes, the "Sierra cement" is not the same as the "cold smoke" snow we get in 
> my part of the country but I see that snow tends to pretty easily slough off 
> arrays that are at and above the 35 deg angle.  Even the wettest Sierra stuff 
> sure doesn't seem like it could stick to glass at a 90 degree angle.  I 
> suspect you could get away with 60 deg, have better production, and still 
> shed the snow.  
> 
> -- 
> Sam Haraldson, Installation Manager
> onsiteenergyinc.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for Comm site

[Sam Haraldson]

>
> However, even if vertical, will Sierra snow (its a special breed) still
> wind-pack on, stay for weeks, days, not at all?  This site is on the
> Pacific crest at 7,000 ft.
>

Yes, the "Sierra cement" is not the same as the "cold smoke" snow we get in
my part of the country but I see that snow tends to pretty easily slough
off arrays that are at and above the 35 deg angle.  Even the wettest Sierra
stuff sure doesn't seem like it could stick to glass at a 90 degree angle.
I suspect you could get away with 60 deg, have better production, and still
shed the snow.

-- 
Sam Haraldson, Installation Manager
onsiteenergyinc.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for Comm site

[Dana]

Hey Bill - 
In 1996-97? I did a project for CDOT on Red Mtn #3 @ 13,200" el. Dry Rocky Mtn 
snow. 

We bolted the top of the array to the eve of the very small block building with 
a welded framework to hold the [16] 75-watt {The biggies back then} . 
As I recall we installed the modules at winter latitude plus 10 deg and never 
had an issue somewhere around 58-60 degrees. Avalanches start at 32 deg+/- so 
any movement should & did slide just fine.

We installed 13,200# of AGM [30 days of battery backup] and a SWWP air wind 
generator, that lost its blades before the next spring, the anemometer lost its 
cups at 200+MPH as the jet stream touched down at least once. Who would have 
figured that one?

There was an LPG backup heater for the building, but it was not working by 
spring [High winds? probably].
I have lost track of the project as state communication managers changed & 
contact was not reestablished.

Overbuild, keep it simple, design for middle of the winter.
Back then we used relay style charge controllers, the previous system had blown 
up all the previous CCs.

I allowed for 50% head room and we never lost another controller or fuse. We 
were seeing over 45-50% additional gain at 13,200' elevation. 75 watt modules 
were pushing 105-110 watts each. Kyocera LA 51? I think?
7000' would not be as extreme an enhancement.
Edge of cloud effect?, 7,000' elevation +20%+/-, reflection off the snow 
10-15%, & -30F look at the temp curve and still give it another 10% of room.
 Site visits in the winter @ these sites are slow all-day projects.


Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc. 
C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com
Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
NABCEP # 051112-136   www.solarwork.biz
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  
 Please consider the environment before printing this email.


-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
frenergy
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2018 10:28 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for Comm site

Sierra wrenches,

 My 30 years of installation has never included comm sites on 
mountain tops but I took the job.

I am proposing mounting PVs vertically towards the top of the south wall of a 2 
story block building to avoid snow build-up.  I assume a pole-mount would be 
next in line if we needed more sq ft of PV. However, even if vertical, will 
Sierra snow (its a special breed) still wind-pack on, stay for weeks, days, not 
at all?  This site is on the Pacific crest at 7,000 ft.

 And then  due to potential temps down to -30F, I assume a WELL 
insulated battery box (maybe even back-up heat?). It seems the best choice 
would be to use AGM/VRLA/Gel?Part my reason for looking for help is my 
customer's loads will only be 12 volt and wants to avoid the cost of an 
inverter.  This seems a little risky not to have an inverter/charger for 
back-up. Appreciate the advice.

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net


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[RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for Comm site

[frenergy]

Sierra wrenches,

            My 30 years of installation has never included comm sites 
on mountain tops but I took the job.


I am proposing mounting PVs vertically towards the top of the south wall 
of a 2 story block building to avoid snow build-up.  I assume a 
pole-mount would be next in line if we needed more sq ft of PV.  
However, even if vertical, will Sierra snow (its a special breed) still 
wind-pack on, stay for weeks, days, not at all?  This site is on the 
Pacific crest at 7,000 ft.


            And then  due to potential temps down to -30F, I assume a 
WELL insulated battery box (maybe even back-up heat?). It seems the best 
choice would be to use AGM/VRLA/Gel?    Part my reason for looking for 
help is my customer's loads will only be 12 volt and wants to avoid the 
cost of an inverter.  This seems a little risky not to have an 
inverter/charger for back-up. Appreciate the advice.


Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net


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