Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??
nect at all in 480.7(A)..quite confusing. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/19/20 7:06 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems both on there 48 Volt and the LX flavors Jerry On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 5:51 PM Ray wrote: The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly state that 706 only covers ESS which is an assembly of components, and that the total assembly must be listed under UL 9540. Further it states: "_ A group of separate components that includes storage batteries, that is provided with support systems (racks), charge controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT have an overall listing as an ESS is a storage battery system and as such is subject to the requirements of article 480"_ and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 says: "_Energy Storage systems shall be listed"_. So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to 480. Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for batteries over 60 vdc (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses need to have an outside disconnect for the batteries labeled "Emergency Disconnect". So here's the real question: Does 480.7(A) exempt us from 480.7(B)? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of ESS systems and the application of Article 706. Yes, an ESS _could_ provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures in Article 690 show three different configurations where the output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS disconnect comes before any power electronics (like a multimode inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in the stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other systems which utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected to other systems" - in many cases the ESS only provides DC. In fact the definition of ESS clearly states this - it _can_ have AC or DC output, and it _may_ include power electronics (but may not).My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very common) was inserted in order to exempt other devices that store energy (such as UPS, or battery backup in fire alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements. Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional(tm) R031508-59 National Electrical Code(R) CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org [7] SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com [8] On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt wrote: Hi Ray, This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly written and did not apply to most systems being installed today. After much discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed 706 apples to the typical residential systems. So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706. Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the IFC as applicable locally. So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making the system operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a component (the battery bank), and not the system (all components taken together as a generator/storage system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make. Hope this helps! -Glenn Burt -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Bill Brooks ; Bill Brooks Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? Hi Everyone; I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid installers need some more clarification. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [14] Change listserver email a
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??
ency Disconnect". So here's the real question: Does 480.7(A) exempt us from 480.7(B)? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of ESS systems and the application of Article 706. Yes, an ESS /could/ provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures in Article 690 show three different configurations where the output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS disconnect comes before any power electronics (like a multimode inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in the stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other systems which utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected to other systems" - in many cases the ESS only provides DC. In fact the definition of ESS clearly states this - it /can/ have AC or DC output, and it /may/ include power electronics (but may not). My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very common) was inserted in order to exempt other devices that store energy (such as UPS, or battery backup in fire alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements. Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com <http://www.seisolarpros.com> On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com>> wrote: Hi Ray, This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly written and did not apply to most systems being installed today. After much discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed 706 apples to the typical residential systems. So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706. Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the IFC as applicable locally. So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making the system operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a component (the battery bank), and not the system (all components taken together as a generator/storage system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make. Hope this helps! -Glenn Burt -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>> On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> Cc: Bill Brooks mailto:bi...@energy808.com>>; Bill Brooks mailto:billbroo...@yahoo.com>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? Hi Everyone; I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid installers need some more clarification. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??
enches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> Cc: Bill Brooks mailto:bi...@energy808.com>>; Bill Brooks mailto:billbroo...@yahoo.com>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? Hi Everyone; I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid installers need some more clarification. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org> ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org> ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org> ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Ch
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??
of article 480"/ and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 says: "/Energy Storage systems shall be listed"/. So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to 480. Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for batteries over 60 vdc (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses need to have an outside disconnect for the batteries labeled "Emergency Disconnect". So here's the real question: Does 480.7(A) exempt us from 480.7(B)? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of ESS systems and the application of Article 706. Yes, an ESS /could/ provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures in Article 690 show three different configurations where the output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS disconnect comes before any power electronics (like a multimode inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in the stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other systems which utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected to other systems" - in many cases the ESS only provides DC. In fact the definition of ESS clearly states this - it /can/ have AC or DC output, and it /may/ include power electronics (but may not). My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very common) was inserted in order to exempt other devices that store energy (such as UPS, or battery backup in fire alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements. Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com <http://www.seisolarpros.com> On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com>> wrote: Hi Ray, This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly written and did not apply to most systems being installed today. After much discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed 706 apples to the typical residential systems. So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706. Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the IFC as applicable locally. So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making the system operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a component (the battery bank), and not the system (all components taken together as a generator/storage system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make. Hope this helps! -Glenn Burt -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>> On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> Cc: Bill Brooks mailto:bi...@energy808.com>>; Bill Brooks mailto:billbroo...@yahoo.com>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? Hi Everyone; I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid installers need some more clarification. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org <
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??
EP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional(tm) R031508-59 National Electrical Code(R) CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org [4] SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com [5] On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt wrote: Hi Ray, This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly written and did not apply to most systems being installed today. After much discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed 706 apples to the typical residential systems. So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706. Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the IFC as applicable locally. So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making the system operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a component (the battery bank), and not the system (all components taken together as a generator/storage system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make. Hope this helps! -Glenn Burt -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Bill Brooks ; Bill Brooks Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? Hi Everyone; I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid installers need some more clarification. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [18] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [21] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [23] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [24] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [25] ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [26] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [27] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ [28] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [29] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [30] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [31] ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [32] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [33] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ [34] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.o
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??
, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly written and did not apply to most systems being installed today. After much discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed 706 apples to the typical residential systems. So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706. Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the IFC as applicable locally. So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making the system operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a component (the battery bank), and not the system (all components taken together as a generator/storage system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make. Hope this helps! -Glenn Burt -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>> On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> Cc: Bill Brooks mailto:bi...@energy808.com>>; Bill Brooks mailto:billbroo...@yahoo.com>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? Hi Everyone; I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid installers need some more clarification. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org> ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org> ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org> ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http:/
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??
is an easy misunderstanding to make. Hope this helps! -Glenn Burt -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>> On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> Cc: Bill Brooks mailto:bi...@energy808.com>>; Bill Brooks mailto:billbroo...@yahoo.com>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? Hi Everyone; I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid installers need some more clarification. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org> ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org> ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org> ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??
Wrenches Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems both on there 48 Volt and the LX flavors Jerry On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 5:51 PM Ray wrote: > The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly state that 706 > only covers ESS which is an assembly of components, and that the total > assembly must be listed under UL 9540. > > Further it states: "* A group of separate components that includes > storage batteries, that is provided with support systems (racks), charge > controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT have an overall listing as an > ESS is a storage battery system and as such is subject to the requirements > of article 480"* > > and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 says: "*Energy > Storage systems shall be listed"*. > > So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to 480. > Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for batteries over 60 vdc > (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses need to have an > outside disconnect for the batteries labeled "Emergency Disconnect". > > So here's the real question: Does 480.7(A) exempt us from 480.7(B)? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > > Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of ESS systems > and the application of Article 706. Yes, an ESS *could* provide 120/240 > VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures in Article 690 show three > different configurations where the output of the ESS is not AC, and where > the ESS disconnect comes before any power electronics (like a multimode > inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in > the stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other systems which > utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected > to other systems" - in many cases the ESS only provides DC. In fact the > definition of ESS clearly states this - it *can* have AC or DC output, > and it *may* include power electronics (but may not). > > My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously problematic > in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very common) was inserted in > order to exempt other devices that store energy (such as UPS, or battery > backup in fire alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements. > > Cheers, > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > >> Hi Ray, >> >> This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of my >> fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed >> with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly >> written and did not apply to most systems being installed today. After much >> discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed >> 706 apples to the typical residential systems. >> So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and I >> believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of >> 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706. >> >> Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the >> IFC as applicable locally. >> So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we do >> when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making the system >> operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). >> >> My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a component >> (the battery bank), and not the system (all components taken together as a >> generator/storage system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make. >> >> Hope this helps! >> >> -Glenn Burt >> >> -Original Message- >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf >> Of Ray >> Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: Bill Brooks ; Bill Brooks > > >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? >> >> Hi Everyone; >> >> I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the >> newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over >> 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting >> means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so >> now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??
The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly state that 706 only covers ESS which is an assembly of components, and that the total assembly must be listed under UL 9540. Further it states: "/A group of separate components that includes storage batteries, that is provided with support systems (racks), charge controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT have an overall listing as an ESS is a storage battery system and as such is subject to the requirements of article 480"/ and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 says: "/Energy Storage systems shall be listed"/. So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to 480. Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for batteries over 60 vdc (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses need to have an outside disconnect for the batteries labeled "Emergency Disconnect". So here's the real question: Does 480.7(A) exempt us from 480.7(B)? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of ESS systems and the application of Article 706. Yes, an ESS /could/ provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures in Article 690 show three different configurations where the output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS disconnect comes before any power electronics (like a multimode inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in the stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other systems which utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected to other systems" - in many cases the ESS only provides DC. In fact the definition of ESS clearly states this - it /can/ have AC or DC output, and it /may/ include power electronics (but may not). My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very common) was inserted in order to exempt other devices that store energy (such as UPS, or battery backup in fire alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements. Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com <http://www.seisolarpros.com> On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt <mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com>> wrote: Hi Ray, This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly written and did not apply to most systems being installed today. After much discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed 706 apples to the typical residential systems. So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706. Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the IFC as applicable locally. So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making the system operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a component (the battery bank), and not the system (all components taken together as a generator/storage system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make. Hope this helps! -Glenn Burt -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>> On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> Cc: Bill Brooks mailto:bi...@energy808.com>>; Bill Brooks mailto:billbroo...@yahoo.com>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? Hi Everyone; I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid installers need some more clarification. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 ___ List
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??
Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of ESS systems and the application of Article 706. Yes, an ESS *could* provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures in Article 690 show three different configurations where the output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS disconnect comes before any power electronics (like a multimode inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in the stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other systems which utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected to other systems" - in many cases the ESS only provides DC. In fact the definition of ESS clearly states this - it *can* have AC or DC output, and it *may* include power electronics (but may not). My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very common) was inserted in order to exempt other devices that store energy (such as UPS, or battery backup in fire alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements. Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > Hi Ray, > > This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of my fellow > inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike > Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly written > and did not apply to most systems being installed today. After much > discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed > 706 apples to the typical residential systems. > So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and I > believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of > 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706. > > Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the IFC > as applicable locally. > So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we do when > systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making the system > operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). > > My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a component > (the battery bank), and not the system (all components taken together as a > generator/storage system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make. > > Hope this helps! > > -Glenn Burt > > -Original Message- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Ray > Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Bill Brooks ; Bill Brooks > Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? > > Hi Everyone; > > I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the > newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over > 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting > means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so > now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for > guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? > > Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off > grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid > installers need some more clarification. > > Thanks, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??
Hi Ray, This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly written and did not apply to most systems being installed today. After much discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed 706 apples to the typical residential systems. So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706. Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the IFC as applicable locally. So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making the system operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a component (the battery bank), and not the system (all components taken together as a generator/storage system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make. Hope this helps! -Glenn Burt -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Bill Brooks ; Bill Brooks Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? Hi Everyone; I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid installers need some more clarification. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??
Wrenches Battery voltages in the NEC generally mean Nominal not peak but may also not to exceed. Blue ion is UL Listed and as far as less than 60, l think is the only ones. Jerry On Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 9:40 AM Ray wrote: > Hi Everyone; > > I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the > newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for > Over 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires > disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have > a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where > do we go for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? > > Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off > grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid > installers need some more clarification. > > Thanks, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
