Re: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet?
On 11-Dec-2002/17:11 -0600, Ed Wilts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We don't even need to start the war on my not ask your users to save all their documents in portable formats. Most don't know how - as far as they're concerned, the native Microsoft formats are all there are. FWIW, the best way to accomplish this is to change their settings so that their apps automatically save in the desired formats. Tony -- Anthony E. Greene mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OpenPGP Key: 0x6C94239D/7B3D BD7D 7D91 1B44 BA26 C484 A42A 60DD 6C94 239D AOL/Yahoo Chat: TonyG05 HomePage: http://www.pobox.com/~agreene/ Linux: the choice of a GNU Generation. http://www.linux.org/ -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list
Re: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet?
On 11-Dec-2002/15:36 -0800, nate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think longer term, the solution is not to work with them, but design a good open format. But before we even try to impose this format on the rest of the world, the open source/free software suites need to support it fully. Sofar I haven't noticed any activivies on the parts of openoffice/staroffice, koffice, abiword, and others to even start on such a format unfortunately. And no XML by itself isn't good enough, all XML is a buncha tags, it can't be decoded and displayed right unless everyone knows what all the tags mean. I mean, Zope can export my websites to XML, fat chance that I'll be able to load them in openoffice though! I look forward to that day, if it ever comes! Someone is working on it: http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/11/20/021120hnopenoffice.xml XML + stylesheets will do the trick. I'm sure that once the standard is agreed upon, it won't take long for Star/OpenOffice to support it. Tony -- Anthony E. Greene mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OpenPGP Key: 0x6C94239D/7B3D BD7D 7D91 1B44 BA26 C484 A42A 60DD 6C94 239D AOL/Yahoo Chat: TonyG05 HomePage: http://www.pobox.com/~agreene/ Linux: the choice of a GNU Generation. http://www.linux.org/ -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list
Re: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet?
On Thu, Dec 12, 2002 at 09:46:35AM -0500, Anthony E. Greene wrote: On 11-Dec-2002/17:11 -0600, Ed Wilts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We don't even need to start the war on my not ask your users to save all their documents in portable formats. Most don't know how - as far as they're concerned, the native Microsoft formats are all there are. FWIW, the best way to accomplish this is to change their settings so that their apps automatically save in the desired formats. That's naive. The vast majority of us have absolutely no control over somebody else's desktops. What if you decided to start sending me MS Word documents? Are you going to let me change your desktop? What about my customers? We need good conversion tools, that's all there is to it. We need to play in their world, not assume world domination by making them change. .../Ed -- Ed Wilts, Mounds View, MN, USA mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Member #1, Red Hat Community Ambassador Program -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list
Re: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet?
On Thu, Dec 12, 2002 at 10:30:25AM -0600, Ed Wilts wrote: We need good conversion tools, that's all there is to it. We need to play in their world, not assume world domination by making them change. Have the issue play backwards. Send them documents in OpenOffice native formats. If they complain, ask them How come you don't have OpenOffice? You can download it freely... It will sure get some attention to the software. Cheers, -- Javier GostlingAv. Kennedy 5757, of. 1502 Ingeniero de Sistemas Las Condes, Santiago, Chile Virtualia S.A. Fono: +56 (2) 202-6264 x 130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fax: +56 (2) 342-8763 msg98635/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet?
On 12-Dec-2002/10:30 -0600, Ed Wilts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 12, 2002 at 09:46:35AM -0500, Anthony E. Greene wrote: On 11-Dec-2002/17:11 -0600, Ed Wilts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We don't even need to start the war on my not ask your users to save all their documents in portable formats. Most don't know how - as far as they're concerned, the native Microsoft formats are all there are. FWIW, the best way to accomplish this is to change their settings so that their apps automatically save in the desired formats. That's naive. The vast majority of us have absolutely no control over somebody else's desktops. What if you decided to start sending me MS Word documents? Are you going to let me change your desktop? What about my customers? The message said ask your users... not ask your correspondants so a sysadmin type like myself started thinking along the lines of how I might get my users to save docs in less restrictive formats. This was a language and background induced misunderstanding. Tony -- Anthony E. Greene mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OpenPGP Key: 0x6C94239D/7B3D BD7D 7D91 1B44 BA26 C484 A42A 60DD 6C94 239D AOL/Yahoo Chat: TonyG05 HomePage: http://www.pobox.com/~agreene/ Linux: the choice of a GNU Generation. http://www.linux.org/ -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list
Re: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet?
On December 12, 2002 11:30 am, Ed Wilts wrote: We need good conversion tools, that's all there is to it. We need to play in their world, not assume world domination by making them change. it may sound naive, but it's not. how else can we expect people to stop using proprietary formats? wait for microsoft to adopt standars? no. social change is the only way, and it starts with people like us. if we recieve a proprietary formatted file, open it in windows and re-save as an rtf or something... BUT then send them an email with a brief explanation as to why (and more importantly how) they should save documents they intend to distribute in open formats. it doesn't have to be technobabble, just something simple like: i got your file, but it took me 20minutes to open it since micros~1 has refused to adopt a standardised system. if you're going to send me files, please use a more universal format. even my grandmother would understand that, and with simple instructions, she'll send me a text file next time. -- corporation, n. an ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - ambrose bierce -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list
RE: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet?
You are contradicting your own statement. Just because you want to use a particular format, does not mean every one should change over to that format. The solution is compatibility and conversion tools. Every document format has its own advantages and disadvantages. Hence, you can not expect people to stop using proprietary formats if such formats have proven to become a widely accepted standard. When Microsoft Word was introduced, still people were using Word Perfect as standard for word processing. However, Word had its own document format, at the same time you could open WordPerfect documents under Word or save Word documents as WordPerfect files. Ultimately Word document format became a standard. Compatibility is the key word. If any new product whether Open source or not needs to compete with existing products, the compatibility and conversion has to be a very important future. Without which many not so computer literate users wont even think of changing over to an Open source application. Again, I am not saying Word format is the way to go. COMPATIBILITY is what I mean. FYI, I am using Open Office suite with RH 8.0 on my home PC. Regards, -Original Message- From: gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 2:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet? On December 12, 2002 11:30 am, Ed Wilts wrote: We need good conversion tools, that's all there is to it. We need to play in their world, not assume world domination by making them change. it may sound naive, but it's not. how else can we expect people to stop using proprietary formats? wait for microsoft to adopt standars? no. social change is the only way, and it starts with people like us. if we recieve a proprietary formatted file, open it in windows and re-save as an rtf or something... BUT then send them an email with a brief explanation as to why (and more importantly how) they should save documents they intend to distribute in open formats. it doesn't have to be technobabble, just something simple like: i got your file, but it took me 20minutes to open it since micros~1 has refused to adopt a standardised system. if you're going to send me files, please use a more universal format. even my grandmother would understand that, and with simple instructions, she'll send me a text file next time. -- corporation, n. an ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - ambrose bierce -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list
Re: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet?
On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 08:30, Ed Wilts wrote: That's naive. The vast majority of us have absolutely no control over somebody else's desktops. What if you decided to start sending me MS Word documents? Are you going to let me change your desktop? What about my customers? We need good conversion tools, that's all there is to it. We need to play in their world, not assume world domination by making them change. Just for the record - the only time I've had trouble with MS Word documents in Open Office - if I export FROM OPEN OFFICE to html - it displays fine in Mozilla. But anyway - before I had Open Office I would send the person a tactful e-mail explaining that I could not read their document because I do not have Microsoft Office, and asked them to save it as html. They do with no issues. -- Michael A. Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list
Re: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet?
On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 15:32, Michael A. Peters wrote: On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 08:30, Ed Wilts wrote: That's naive. The vast majority of us have absolutely no control over somebody else's desktops. What if you decided to start sending me MS Word documents? Are you going to let me change your desktop? What about my customers? We need good conversion tools, that's all there is to it. We need to play in their world, not assume world domination by making them change. Just for the record - the only time I've had trouble with MS Word documents in Open Office - if I export FROM OPEN OFFICE to html - it displays fine in Mozilla. But anyway - before I had Open Office I would send the person a tactful e-mail explaining that I could not read their document because I do not have Microsoft Office, and asked them to save it as html. They do with no issues. -- Michael A. Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] I figure that with all the countries beginning to endorse and distribute Linux on a widescale basis that this will be a non-issue in 3 or 4 years because Microsoft will have to try to make their office suite compatable with standard formats in order to be competitive in the massive emerging markets of India, China and Africa. So in the meantime I have stopped being so anti-microsoft, and use CodeWeavers Crossover Office product to use MS Office 2000 on my Linux Desktop, it works just fine. -Ben. -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list
RE: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet?
Raj, Well-worded. Like it or not, and trust me I hate it, Microsoft Word is a standard. For what it is worth, I receive .lwp documents from IBM all the time. I can't open them up in OpenOffice and I can't open them up in Microsoft Word. After research, I realized that lwp is for Lotus Word Pro. They ended up reconverting it into a PDF format for me. Conversion/Compatibility are the key and, in time, the standard may very well change again, preferably to an open-doc format. JMF -Original Message- From: Periyasamy, Raj [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 2:54 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet? You are contradicting your own statement. Just because you want to use a particular format, does not mean every one should change over to that format. The solution is compatibility and conversion tools. Every document format has its own advantages and disadvantages. Hence, you can not expect people to stop using proprietary formats if such formats have proven to become a widely accepted standard. When Microsoft Word was introduced, still people were using Word Perfect as standard for word processing. However, Word had its own document format, at the same time you could open WordPerfect documents under Word or save Word documents as WordPerfect files. Ultimately Word document format became a standard. Compatibility is the key word. If any new product whether Open source or not needs to compete with existing products, the compatibility and conversion has to be a very important future. Without which many not so computer literate users wont even think of changing over to an Open source application. Again, I am not saying Word format is the way to go. COMPATIBILITY is what I mean. FYI, I am using Open Office suite with RH 8.0 on my home PC. Regards, -Original Message- From: gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 2:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet? On December 12, 2002 11:30 am, Ed Wilts wrote: We need good conversion tools, that's all there is to it. We need to play in their world, not assume world domination by making them change. it may sound naive, but it's not. how else can we expect people to stop using proprietary formats? wait for microsoft to adopt standars? no. social change is the only way, and it starts with people like us. if we recieve a proprietary formatted file, open it in windows and re-save as an rtf or something... BUT then send them an email with a brief explanation as to why (and more importantly how) they should save documents they intend to distribute in open formats. it doesn't have to be technobabble, just something simple like: i got your file, but it took me 20minutes to open it since micros~1 has refused to adopt a standardised system. if you're going to send me files, please use a more universal format. even my grandmother would understand that, and with simple instructions, she'll send me a text file next time. -- corporation, n. an ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - ambrose bierce -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list
Re: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 James Francis wrote: | Raj, Well-worded. | Like it or not, and trust me I hate it, Microsoft Word is a standard. For | what it is worth, I receive .lwp documents from IBM all the time. I can't | open them up in OpenOffice and I can't open them up in Microsoft Word. | After research, I realized that lwp is for Lotus Word Pro. They ended up | reconverting it into a PDF format for me. One word: RTF Problem solved. Cross platform, cross application, just about anything can read it and most formatting isn't lost. - -Rick - -- Rick Johnson, RHCE - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux/WAN Administrator - Medata, Inc. PGP Public Key: https://mail.medata.com/pgp/rjohnson.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) Comment: Signed and/or encpryted for everyone's protection. iEYEARECAAYFAj35CPMACgkQIgQdhlSHZgN0yQCgjJuhxZhoPpGVlvPRGyj15JkG XqMAmwbw4ReYqIarZXiigjE5aV09qZEs =g4Mw -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list
Re: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet?
On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 16:08, Rick Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 James Francis wrote: | Raj, Well-worded. | Like it or not, and trust me I hate it, Microsoft Word is a standard. For | what it is worth, I receive .lwp documents from IBM all the time. I can't | open them up in OpenOffice and I can't open them up in Microsoft Word. | After research, I realized that lwp is for Lotus Word Pro. They ended up | reconverting it into a PDF format for me. One word: RTF Problem solved. Cross platform, cross application, just about anything can read it and most formatting isn't lost. Not too bad a solution or at least a step in the right direction. I too have been hit with this from both sides. Unfortunatly for anything in the general business world, Word appears to be the defacto standard but that may be on the verge of change. Did anyone read the infoworld interveiw with McNealy of Sun where he said that Sony was going to bundle star office on all their computers with others to follow? http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/12/11/021211hnmcnealy.xml?1212theb I have been running Office 97 on win4lin for a couple of years now because we redline documents with various vendors and attorneys all the time. If we caould get a cross platform spec on that it would be a fine world indeed. Bret -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list
Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet?
I've been somewhat disappointed with the quality of the conversion of Office documents into native *nix documents by most of the decent GUI apps (Kword, Staroffice, Openoffice, etc.). Is everyone with me on this? It's a current barrier holding me back from a complete dump of everything M$, and I know each new version of the MS Office data formats incorporates an even more closed, corrupted, arcane (and unstable!) system to prevent easy translation. I'm sure M$ doesn't want to repeat the mistakes of Samba, but if RedHat really wants to take over the desktop market share, isn't decent document import one of the first requirements in a sea of nonstop incoming .doc's on email (another issue)? If anyone's found an import that can handle all the highly used features in MS Word properly (tables, numbering, footnotes, and redline are a start), I'd certainly like to be corrected on my appraisal of the problem! Of course, I don't intend to launch the why import when you can use open source? question, because most people don't have a choice: M$ documents are (sadly) not yet extinct. But maybe a good import filter could help keep their population under control until the old monopoly fades away. Ryan -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list
Re: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet?
Well, my best option until now has been using rtf format rather than M$ Word format. Still not perfect, and I have some problems with tables of content, but it is better than trying to load a native Word format. -Manuel. -Original Message- From: Ryan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:22:17 + Subject: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet? I've been somewhat disappointed with the quality of the conversion of Office documents into native *nix documents by most of the decent GUI apps (Kword, Staroffice, Openoffice, etc.). Is everyone with me on this? It's a current barrier holding me back from a complete dump of everything M$, and I know each new version of the MS Office data formats incorporates an even more closed, corrupted, arcane (and unstable!) system to prevent easy translation. I'm sure M$ doesn't want to repeat the mistakes of Samba, but if RedHat really wants to take over the desktop market share, isn't decent document import one of the first requirements in a sea of nonstop incoming .doc's on email (another issue)? If anyone's found an import that can handle all the highly used features in MS Word properly (tables, numbering, footnotes, and redline are a start), I'd certainly like to be corrected on my appraisal of the problem! Of course, I don't intend to launch the why import when you can use open source? question, because most people don't have a choice: M$ documents are (sadly) not yet extinct. But maybe a good import filter could help keep their population under control until the old monopoly fades away. Ryan -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list
Re: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet?
On Wed, Dec 11, 2002 at 07:22:17PM +, Ryan wrote: I've been somewhat disappointed with the quality of the conversion of Office documents into native *nix documents by most of the decent GUI apps (Kword, Staroffice, Openoffice, etc.). What can we say? When you're right, you're right. There are no good open source translators out there - not even for MS Word. Every one I've tested failed on trivial documents, and I gave up. Not even StarOffice on Windows was anywhere close to usable a couple of months ago and I bought Office XP for my home systems. Of course, I don't intend to launch the why import when you can use open source? question, because most people don't have a choice: M$ documents are (sadly) not yet extinct. But maybe a good import filter could help keep their population under control until the old monopoly fades away. We don't even need to start the war on my not ask your users to save all their documents in portable formats. Most don't know how - as far as they're concerned, the native Microsoft formats are all there are. .../Ed -- Ed Wilts, Mounds View, MN, USA mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Member #1, Red Hat Community Ambassador Program -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list
Re: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet?
Ed Wilts said: What can we say? When you're right, you're right. There are no good open source translators out there - not even for MS Word. Every one I've tested failed on trivial documents, and I gave up. Not even StarOffice on Windows was anywhere close to usable a couple of months ago and I bought Office XP for my home systems. what can one expect? when MS themselves cannot make their own shit compadible with their own shit :) I've read lots of stories about MS word on win32 docs not being able to open on MS office on mac, or vise versa, a more extreme example, a few months ago a former co worker was writing his resume in word 2000, About half the people he sent the resume to could not open it(despite all of them running word 2000). And this guy was no idiot, he was/is a very smart guy who has a lot of experience on MS platforms(and other platforms as well. Even a couple people in the same office(using the same MS office cd to install), had problems opening the document! While others, had no problems. In the end he had to use some $500 software package to export his document to PDF(maybe there was another way but thats what he chose). Meanwhile I provide my resume(being unemployed too) in .DOC, .TXT(CRLF LF), .PDF, .PS, .HTML, .RTF, and .SXW and never had a problem:) of course it was written in star office 6(though I do admit I had to do some changes to the HTML version to make it have better formatting, even though it was easily readable it wasn't as clean). I purchased staroffice 6 to show support for open office, its easier for me then filing bug reports(and I cannot program). I agree that compadiblity with MS documents is important, but if the company who makes it(I'm sure some quick google searches will turn up hundreds of results like the time I think they released an update to office 97 so it could write documents readable in office 95) can't accomplish the task of making a portable document format accross their very own products, how can anyone else expect to achieve 100% compadibility? I think longer term, the solution is not to work with them, but design a good open format. But before we even try to impose this format on the rest of the world, the open source/free software suites need to support it fully. Sofar I haven't noticed any activivies on the parts of openoffice/staroffice, koffice, abiword, and others to even start on such a format unfortunately. And no XML by itself isn't good enough, all XML is a buncha tags, it can't be decoded and displayed right unless everyone knows what all the tags mean. I mean, Zope can export my websites to XML, fat chance that I'll be able to load them in openoffice though! I look forward to that day, if it ever comes! despite all that though I still love linux and have been MS-free for more then 4 years, after having used their stuff for more then 8 years. nate -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list
Re: Decent Word / Excel Conversion: Not yet?
On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Ryan wrote: I've been somewhat disappointed with the quality of the conversion of Office documents into native *nix documents by most of the decent GUI apps (Kword, Staroffice, Openoffice, etc.). Are you expecting perfection ? There is no such thing! You want more ? What have _you_ done to solve your problems ? Is everyone with me on this? It's a current barrier holding me back from a complete dump of everything M$, and I know each new version of the MS Then don't. Is as simple as that! Is nobody's fault that _you_ choose to keep your docs in an closed and proprietary format. Nobody's forcing you to dump of everything M$. Office data formats incorporates an even more closed, corrupted, arcane (and unstable!) system to prevent easy translation. Exactly, AFAIK even Microsoft's own Word had some troubles importing from one version to another. I'm sure M$ doesn't want to repeat the mistakes of Samba, but if RedHat really wants to take over the desktop market share, isn't decent document import one of the first requirements in a sea of nonstop incoming .doc's on email (another issue)? In other words: If you want me to come on your side then Gimme, Gimme, Gimme! Instead of moaning at what OpenOffice does not, better be amazed at what it _does_! AFAIK the Microsoft doc format is completely closed and there has been a tremendous effort to reverse engineer it and have what you already see. Cheers, -- Ryurick M. Hristev mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Computer Systems Manager University of Canterbury, Physics Astronomy Dept., New Zealand -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list
