RE: [Repeater-Builder] GE Ferro-Resonant Transformer PS

[Paul Finch]

Hello,
 
You 
may want to go to http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_9/6.html for 
a good theory of operation.  
 
Paul
 

  -Original Message-From: Fred Seamans 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 7:44 
  AMTo: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comSubject: 
  [Repeater-Builder] GE Ferro-Resonant Transformer PS
  Kevin: You may want to copy this for the repeater 
  files.
  For those of you that would like to learn more 
  about the technical details of a ferro-resonant transformer, Sola has a pdf 
  format 3 page write up on them.
  http://www.sola-hevi-duty.com/products/powerconditioning/pdfs/opchars.pdf
   
  Fred
  W5VAY













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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciterin duplex service.

[Bob Dengler]

At 12/19/2004 10:29 PM, you wrote:
>
>When it comes to Phase noise of an oscillator, the higher the Q of the 
>resonant circuit, the better the phase noise.  An LC circuit generally 
>will have a Q of around 100 where a crystal can have a Q of 10,000 to 
>500,000, thus a crystal oscillator generally yields superior phase noise 
>performance over LC circuits, such as the VCO in the GE PLL exciter.  I 
>have seen instances where engineers have use conventional "multiplier" 
>circuits (fundamentally similar to the old GE highband exciter, without 
>the "issues") to achieve superior phase noise performance over a PLL 
>circuit, because the phase noise of the VCO was the weakest link in the 
>PLL circuit.

Unless these multipliers without "issues" have very high Q tuned circuits, 
I don't see where the improvement in phase noise would come from.  Noise is 
increased anytime a signal is multiplied by the factor 20*log(N), where N 
is the multiplication factor.  So for the highband VHF exciter utilizing a 
crystal oscillator (x 12), the noise will be 21.6 dB higher (referenced to 
the carrier) than the noise of the crystal oscillator itself.  I'm not 
ceratin of this but I don't think it's possible to reduce this noise 
without resorting to
very high-Q multiplier circuits or interstage filtering.

Bob NO6B






 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: GP-68 info

[Neil McKie]

  Oh!  Ok, 

  Thanks. 

  Neil 

"Buley, Kenneth L (GE Consumer & Industrial)" wrote:
> 
> It is a re-imported Motorola export only HT that covers 
> commercial/ham, can be user programmed, and is not supported in 
> the US by Big "M". It is relatively cheap on eBay and, once 
> programmed, is fairly easy to use, but, again, don't expect to 
> find local service support from Motorola. It is similar to the AP- 
> and CP- version HTs, but is widebanded and NOT type accepted for 
> US use.
> 
> Kenneth Buley
> Bullitt County DES CD-2
> Bullitt County Red Cross/Certified ECRVDriver/Operator BC-6
> Bullitt County ARES\RACES Coordinator KY4DES
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Neil McKie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 8:28 AM
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: GP-68 info
> 
>   Ok, what is a GP-68?
> 
>   Sounds like a Diesel Locomotive ...
> 
>   Neil - WA6KLA
> 
> Mike Morris WA6ILQ wrote:
> >
> > Anybody got an answer to this email which I got from a friend?
> >
> > >Do you know anybody who can do an alignment on a GP-68?
> > >I acquired one which is almost 1khz off frequency and would like to
> > >get it calibrated correctly.   Or is it something I can do myself?
> >
> > Mike WA6ILQ
> >
>





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Source for custom made cables

[Neil McKie]

  AFAIK ???  

  Don't you mean WA6ITF? 

Bob Dengler wrote:
> 
> At 12/18/2004 11:07 AM, you wrote:
> 
> >Bill Pasternak will build you any kind of cable assembly for a price.
> >
> >Pasternak Enterprises
> >P. O. Box 16759
> >Irvine, CA 92623
> >
> >Ph 714-261-1920
> 
> That's "Pasternack".  Not affiliated with Bill Pasternak AFAIK.
> 
> Bob NO6B
>





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Source for custom made cables

[Bob Dengler]

At 12/18/2004 11:07 AM, you wrote:

>Bill Pasternak will build you any kind of cable assembly for a price.
>
>Pasternak Enterprises
>P. O. Box 16759
>Irvine, CA 92623
>
>Ph 714-261-1920

That's "Pasternack".  Not affiliated with Bill Pasternak AFAIK.

Bob NO6B






 
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[Repeater-Builder] Re: KENWOOD KPT-20

[skipp025]

Hola Jesus, 

¿la información del regulador de CSI que yo le 
envió trabajan correctamente?

¿Podía usted reajustar la contraseña?

respeto
skipp

skipp025 at yahoo.com 

> "cobalto27mx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> Anyone have programming instructions for the Kenwood KPT-20 i need
> program the 27c64 eprom for tk-720
> 
> ALGUIEN TIENE LAS INSTRUCCIONES PARA EL KENWOOD KPT-20, NECECITO
> PROGRAMAR EL EPROM 27C64DE UN TK-720
> 
> THANKS-GRACIAS
> 
> JESUS 

Did the CSI controller information I sent you work properly?
Were you able to reset the password? 
skipp 







 
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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: GP-68 info

[Mike Morris WA6ILQ]

Basically 20 channels of 438-470mhz, user
programmable (i.e. from the front panel).
No alpha tags, tho.

One neat feature is that it has a 16-button
touchtone pad.

And some have type acceptance labels, some don't.

The radio comes with the keyboard programming
feature disabled, you have to remove a surface
mount resistor to enable it.  The original intent
was that the dealer has the enabled radio, and
programs it to the customer specs.  He then
clones the "master" radio into the slaves with a
cloning cable.

And yes, when I first heard about it I said to myself
that the person HAS to have that model number
wrong.  But them he pulled his out from under the
seat and no, Moto really did use an Electro-Motive
model number

At 05:44 AM 12/20/04, you wrote:

>It is a re-imported Motorola export only HT that covers commercial/ham, 
>can be user programmed, and is not supported in the US by Big "M". It is 
>relatively cheap on eBay and, once programmed, is fairly easy to use, but, 
>again, don't expect to find local service support from Motorola. It is 
>similar to the AP- and CP- version HTs, but is widebanded and NOT type 
>accepted for US use.
>
>Kenneth Buley
>Bullitt County DES CD-2
>Bullitt County Red Cross/Certified ECRVDriver/Operator BC-6
>Bullitt County ARES\RACES Coordinator KY4DES
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Neil McKie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 8:28 AM
>To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: GP-68 info
>
>Ok, what is a GP-68?
>
>Sounds like a Diesel Locomotive ...
>
>Neil - WA6KLA
>
>
>Mike Morris WA6ILQ wrote:
> >
> > Anybody got an answer to this email which I got from a friend?
> >
> > >Do you know anybody who can do an alignment on a GP-68?
> > >I acquired one which is almost 1khz off frequency and would like to
> > >get it calibrated correctly.   Or is it something I can do myself?
> >
> > Mike WA6ILQ
> >





 
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[Repeater-Builder] KENWOOD KPT-20

[cobalto27mx]

Anyone have programming instructions for the Kenwood KPT-20 i need
program the 27c64 eprom for tk-720

ALGUIEN TIENE LAS INSTRUCCIONES PARA EL KENWOOD KPT-20, NECECITO
PROGRAMAR EL EPROM 27C64DE UN TK-720

THANKS-GRACIAS

JESUS











 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Crystal Phase Noise?

[Scott]

Thanks for the reply Kevin-
 
---Subject repeaters will have to remain 
unnamed as I currently enjoy a good relationship with their point of origin and 
I want very much to keep the situation that way. I will say however that 
transmitter circuit wise , they are esentially the same as those produced by 
Spectrum and I have a couple of them too. I other words, a simple crystal 
oscillator (with an audio modulated varicap modulating the crystal capacitance) 
followed by a multiplyer string and final amplifier-ie, no PLL's. The 
difference in the modulation (FM) noise of of the subject repeaters and 
others is noticable via a  monitoring receiver-some repeaters are 
quieter than others and I'm not talking about RF quietingI'm talking about 
differences in audible background hiss assuming a "full quieting" strong RF 
signal. Do you have any ideas as to where the "hiss" modulation might 
be coming from. I think it is random phase noise in the crystal oscillator 
but I can't point at the problem part or design problem and am wondering if the 
crystal it's self could be my noise source. 
 
Scott
 
 
- Original Message - 

  From: 
  Kevin Custer 
  
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  
  Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 6:27 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Crystal 
  Phase Noise?
  Scott wrote:
  

Hello All
 
Here is a "crystal" question for the group. Do 
crystals vary in the amount of random phase noise produced in or by a 
typical crystal oscillator / FM modulator circuit as used in a typical 
repeater transmitter? Now, more to the issue. I have a series of repeaters 
that have more transmitted background audio hiss than the 
average of other repeaters on the band. I have, in testing, dissabled 
all of the audio modulating circuitry up to the varicap diode without any 
change in transmitted noise . This leaves only the crystal and it's 
oscillator circuit as the culprit noise source---hence my question. Do 
crystals vary in produced FM (phase) noise. If the answer is yes, Which 
crystal manufactures make quiet crystals and just how does one insure that 
he gets this need across to a crystal supplier?I 
  don't believe the crystal or oscillator is to blame, but I could be 
  wrong.  What make and model of equipment are you dealing with?  Is 
  it true FM or phase modulated?Kevin 
  Custer













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[Repeater-Builder] Re: Kenwood TKR-820

[skipp025]

> "N9WYS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, gang.  I finally have the monster in my 
> hot little hands!!  And I findit is NOT a TKR-830, 
> but rather a TKR-820...  From reading the Repeater
> -Builder's web page, I see that Gene - WB0PKP has 
> a TKR-820 operating on the ham band.

I have 5 of them in the ham band, they work fine for 
most applications. Both with the internal repeater 
controller and an external tone panel.  I just 
interfaced 3 into a commercial voting systems that 
works very well. 

> 1) Can I use the software for the 830 to program 
> this, or is there another version? 

>From memory, you need the kpg-21d software if you 
plan to use a pc through the required kpt-50 
interface. I've never seen an after market kpt-50. 
If you're local to me, I can and will reprogram 
the repeater for free. 

Email me off the list direct if you need one 
(a kpt-50). I'm an Authorized Kenwood Dealer 
and keep them in stock.  

> 2) How difficult is it to get it to go to 444 
> MHz?  (I need mine on 444.550)

Not hard, best done with a quality service monitor, 
the service manual and by choice I also like to 
use a Sinader.

> It is currently on 462. 

> 3) Will be looking for manuals, etc...

People are selling pdf on cd service manuals on 
Ebay for less than my actual dealer cost. 
Sometimes they are not the most current manual 
versions. 

Original Kenwood Hardcopy manuals run from about 
$12 to $32, depending on model/size. 

> Thanks all, and sorry for the confusion.
> Mark - N9WYS 

I'm happy to field Kenwood LMR (Commercial Two-Way) 
Questions direct (off the list). 

The tkr-820 willl make a fine Amateur Repeater. 

cheers
skipp 

skipp025 at yahoo.com 
www.radiowrench.com 







 
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[Repeater-Builder] Re: Crystal Phase Noise?

[skipp025]

> > Do crystals vary in the amount of random phase noise 
> > produced in or by a typical crystal oscillator / FM 
> > modulator circuit as used in a typical repeater 
> > transmitter? 

> > Do  crystals vary in produced FM (phase) noise. 

Yes, but I would not label the noise as phase noise.

> If the answer is yes, Which crystal manufactures 
> make quiet crystals 

Crystals within the same mfgrs shipment can often 
differ quite a bit. Most all mfgrs make high spec 
crystals.  When you depart the most common mfgrs 
specs, you wallet goes along for the ride. 

> > and just how does one insure that he gets this 
> > need across to a crystal supplier?

You would have to spec a specific crystal type or 
design cut / application, costing a more money. 

Practical options are trying multiple combinations 
of different channel elements and crystals in the 
same circuit. 

I've not found the mentioned noise floor to be a big 
problem when <200Hz.  In high spec applications, the 
easy fix is to order multiple xtals and place them 
in different lot channel elements. Most of the time, 
the xtal - channel element combination works just 
fine.  

There is a typical 1 out of 10 or 15 tx packages, 
which seems to have a relative higher noise level. 

Sometimes moving the xtal to a different element 
works... sometimes it doesn't.  I have also seen 
various brand channel elements, which seem to be 
more problematic than others. 

If you're bothered by the amount of the noise, 
simply order and try a second xtal/channel element 
package. I've never had to go past a second try. 

cheers

skipp025 at yahoo.com 







 
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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Kenwood TKR-830

[N9WYS]

Well, gang.  I finally have the monster in my hot little hands!!  And I find
it is NOT a TKR-830, but rather a TKR-820...  From reading the
Repeater-Builder's web page, I see that Gene - WB0PKP has a TKR-820
operating on the ham band.
Gene - if you're out there reading this, can you get in touch with me
off-list??  For Gene and all, some questions...
1) Can I use the software for the 830 to program this, or is there another
version?
2) How difficult is it to get it to go to 444 MHz?  (I need mine on 444.550)
It is currently on 462.
3) Will be looking for manuals, etc...
Thanks all, and sorry for the confusion.
Mark - N9WYS





 
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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Pasternack

[jeff]

> 
> 
> Does anybody actually order from them? I've gotten a catalog 
> for years, but 
> never ordered. Prices were too high and minimum out of reach.
> 
> Chuck
> WB2EDV

Yeah, I ordered from them occasionally when I couldn't find what I
needed anywhere else (75 ohm type N's come to mind).  Prices are high,
selection is very good, quality is very good.  I see a lot of cables
that come with various pieces of equipment (test equipment, broadcast,
microwave, etc.) that were made by Pasternack; I think that's where the
bulk of their business lies.

--- Jeff






 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Question on Mitrek

[Jim B.]

Bob wrote:

> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply well i did not know if it work or now,I been 
> trying to sale or trade this mitrek . But i would trake it
> for a uhf fm amp that take 9 -14 watt input with up to 100 watts
> out,Dont need the mitrek just in my way.Make good door stop and paper
> weight tho...Bob/N2BR

why not just use the mitrek as the whole rptr? they make great rptrs!

-- 
Jim




 
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[Repeater-Builder] Re: HEY Cushman CE-3,4,5,6 users

[ocwarren2000]

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "dep_ru_kidding" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> I have some pre-selectors and Scopes for the Cushman service 
monitors 
> hanging out in my garage I need to get rid of and I'd like to get 
> something for em. If you have intrest send me an e-mail and we'll 
get 
> together. I'm in San Diego area and starting vacation Friday after 
> shift so the garage is getting cleaned out and I may just throw'em 
in 
> the can..
> 
> I also have Master-II frame, some mobiles, feedthrough pannel 
parts, 
> lots of surplus crap, ahh I mean stuff that need to go away!
> 
> If your looking for something special send me an e-mail I just may 
> know of a place to find it.
> 
> Master-Exec-II's, Mocom-70's, I even have a Mocom-70 tuned up 
> operational on 6 meters! Gota g!

  Hi again.

I've sent you a couple of e-mails about the Cushman plug in scopes 
and asking to make a deal on one before they are gone, but I haven't 
received a reply!!  This will make the third message!

Are the messages getting through, or am I out of luck??

Thanks,

O. Dick Warren, W7TIO
Salem, Oregon

[EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED]









 
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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HEY Cushman CE-3,4,5,6 users

[Paul Finch]

Hello,

I would like to buy a 301 a scope module or a deviation meter for a CE 4,
either one if you have it.

Paul


-Original Message-
From: ocwarren2000 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 5:14 AM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HEY Cushman CE-3,4,5,6 users




--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "dep_ru_kidding"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> I have some pre-selectors and Scopes for the Cushman service
monitors
> hanging out in my garage I need to get rid of and I'd like to get
> something for em. If you have intrest send me an e-mail and we'll
get
> together. I'm in San Diego area and starting vacation Friday after
> shift so the garage is getting cleaned out and I may just throw'em
in
> the can..
>
> I also have Master-II frame, some mobiles, feedthrough pannel
parts,
> lots of surplus crap, ahh I mean stuff that need to go away!
>
> If your looking for something special send me an e-mail I just may
> know of a place to find it.
>
> Master-Exec-II's, Mocom-70's, I even have a Mocom-70 tuned up
> operational on 6 meters! Gota g!

  Hi again.

I've sent you a couple of e-mails about the Cushman plug in scopes
and asking to make a deal on one before they are gone, but I haven't
received a reply!!  This will make the third message!

Are the messages getting through, or am I out of luck??

Thanks,

O. Dick Warren, W7TIO
Salem, Oregon

[EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED]










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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Crystal Phase Noise?

[Kevin Custer]

Scott wrote:

  
  
  
  Hello All
   
  Here is a "crystal" question for the
group. Do crystals vary in the amount of random phase noise produced in
or by a typical crystal oscillator / FM modulator circuit as used in a
typical repeater transmitter? Now, more to the issue. I have a series
of repeaters that have more transmitted background audio hiss than the
average of other repeaters on the band. I have, in testing, dissabled
all of the audio modulating circuitry up to the varicap diode without
any change in transmitted noise . This leaves only the crystal and it's
oscillator circuit as the culprit noise source---hence my question.
Do crystals vary in produced FM (phase) noise. If the answer is yes,
Which crystal manufactures make quiet crystals and just how does one
insure that he gets this need across to a crystal supplier?


I don't believe the crystal or oscillator is to blame, but I could be
wrong.  What make and model of equipment are you dealing with?  Is it
true FM or phase modulated?

Kevin Custer














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Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.

[Kevin Custer]

Joe Montierth wrote:

>The frequency stability of any transmitter is only as good as it's reference 
>oscillator (be that a PLL or a multiplied crystal)- dividing or multiplying 
>the frequency will not change that constant (in PPM). It doesn't matter if you 
>use a 100KHz, 1MHz, 10MHz or 100MHz reference frequency, if they are all the 
>same in PPM. You don't somehow get better stability by dividing the frequency, 
>and you don't get worse by multiplying the frequency. It is what it is.
>

You know,  I never thought about it in this manner, but if multiplying 
the reference doesn't change the stability for the worse, then dividing 
it won't make it any better either.  Thanks for the clarification Joe.

Kevin Custer







 
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[Repeater-Builder] GP - Diesel Locomotive

[bbedoe]

In a message dated 12/20/2004 7:45:51 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Ok, what is 
  a GP-68?      Sounds like a Diesel Locomotive ... 
    Neil - WA6KLA 

My Dad who is a 35 year retired Electro-Motive employee, Thanks you!
Electro Motive are the builders of GM's Diesel Locomotive Line! (GP, SD AND 
OTHERS)
 
Brian, 
WD9HSY













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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: GP-68 info

[Buley, Kenneth L \(GE Consumer & Industrial\)]

It is a re-imported Motorola export only HT that covers commercial/ham, can be 
user programmed, and is not supported in the US by Big "M". It is relatively 
cheap on eBay and, once programmed, is fairly easy to use, but, again, don't 
expect to find local service support from Motorola. It is similar to the AP- 
and CP- version HTs, but is widebanded and NOT type accepted for US use.

Kenneth Buley
Bullitt County DES CD-2
Bullitt County Red Cross/Certified ECRVDriver/Operator BC-6
Bullitt County ARES\RACES Coordinator KY4DES 
 

-Original Message-
From: Neil McKie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 8:28 AM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: GP-68 info




  Ok, what is a GP-68?  
  
  Sounds like a Diesel Locomotive ... 

  Neil - WA6KLA 


Mike Morris WA6ILQ wrote:
> 
> Anybody got an answer to this email which I got from a friend?
> 
> >Do you know anybody who can do an alignment on a GP-68?
> >I acquired one which is almost 1khz off frequency and would like to
> >get it calibrated correctly.   Or is it something I can do myself?
> 
> Mike WA6ILQ
>





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: GP-68 info

[Neil McKie]

  Ok, what is a GP-68?  
  
  Sounds like a Diesel Locomotive ... 

  Neil - WA6KLA 


Mike Morris WA6ILQ wrote:
> 
> Anybody got an answer to this email which I got from a friend?
> 
> >Do you know anybody who can do an alignment on a GP-68?
> >I acquired one which is almost 1khz off frequency and would like to
> >get it calibrated correctly.   Or is it something I can do myself?
> 
> Mike WA6ILQ
>





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciterin duplex service.

[Kevin Custer]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   
  I think GE realized that the old multiplier highband exciter
needed a design revisit, and chose a PLL version over a conventional
multiplier for more reasons than just enhanced noise performance.  The
PLL version requires very little tuning, thus reducing labor and
overall cost.  I'm certain that they could have developed a
"multiplier" version that exceeds the noise performance of the PLL
unit, had they chosen that route.
  
  

The PLL exciter was designed for several reasons, one being FM in
nature it worked correctly with emerging digital technology like DPL
and other digital signaling. Secondly, it would operate (properly and
without degradation) over 17 mHz of bandwidth without retuning,
something a "multiplier" exciter cannot do.  Motorola built radios with
two exciters to cover a large operational area, certainly not a very
cost effective approach.  The Mastr II PLL was certainly cheaper to
produce, in materials and labor.  I think the phase noise advantage was
an added aside, and was likely not the intended need for the redesign.

Kevin Custer
















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Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.

[Kevin Custer]

Hi Wade,

  
  
  
  Kevin,
   
       I now realize the mistake I was
making in looking at this.  I am used to seeing newer PLL's with a much
higher reference oscillator frequency and having a divider in the
reference side before the Phase Comparator.  In that case the stability
does improve over that of the reference oscillator, but that obviously
does not apply here.


That was the point I was trying to get you to see without stating the
obvious.  If you have a higher reference (higher than the operating
frequency) and divide it, then yes, the stability is improved by that
amount, but, as you now see that isn't the case in this radio set.

  Sorry, I will shut up now.


Please don't look at it that way.  Your debate of the subject likely
educated more folks than yourself, and that is what this list is all
about, technical education.

Kevin Custer















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[Repeater-Builder] Re: HEY Cushman CE-3,4,5,6 users

[ocwarren2000]

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "dep_ru_kidding" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> I have some pre-selectors and Scopes for the Cushman service 
monitors 
> hanging out in my garage I need to get rid of and I'd like to get 
> something for em. If you have intrest send me an e-mail and we'll 
get 
> together. I'm in San Diego area and starting vacation Friday after 
> shift so the garage is getting cleaned out and I may just throw'em 
in 
> the can..
> 
> I also have Master-II frame, some mobiles, feedthrough pannel 
parts, 
> lots of surplus crap, ahh I mean stuff that need to go away!
> 
> If your looking for something special send me an e-mail I just may 
> know of a place to find it.
> 
> Master-Exec-II's, Mocom-70's, I even have a Mocom-70 tuned up 
> operational on 6 meters! Gota g!

  Hi again.

I've sent you a couple of e-mails about the Cushman plug in scopes 
and asking to make a deal on one before they are gone, but I haven't 
received a reply!!  This will make the third message!

Are the messages getting through, or am I out of luck??

Thanks,

O. Dick Warren, W7TIO
Salem, Oregon

[EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED]









 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.

[Joe Montierth]

The frequency stability of any transmitter is only as
good as it's reference oscillator (be that a PLL or a
multiplied crystal)- dividing or multiplying the
frequency will not change that constant (in PPM). It
doesn't matter if you use a 100KHz, 1MHz, 10MHz or
100MHz reference frequency, if they are all the same
in PPM. You don't somehow get better stability by
dividing the frequency, and you don't get worse by
multiplying the frequency. It is what it is.

Joe


--- Wade Lake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Kevin,
> 
>  I now realize the mistake I was making in
> looking at this.  I am used to seeing newer PLL's
> with a much higher reference oscillator frequency
> and having a divider in the reference side before
> the Phase Comparator.  In that case the stability
> does improve over that of the reference oscillator,
> but that obviously does not apply here.
> 
> Sorry, I will shut up now.
> 
> Wade - KR7K  
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: Kevin Custer 
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs.
> Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.
> 
> 
> Wade,
> 
> If the PLL reference from the crystal is X3, and the
> VCO sample has been divided by 4, what is the
> product of 3 times 4?  The answer is 12.  If the
> transmitter was any more stable in frequency than
> the reference, shouldn't one think the stated
> frequency stability would be better than 2 PPM or 5
> PPM, which is the stability of the ICOM itself? 
> Many times the manual states the VCO is locked to
> the 12th multiple of the ICOM.  This means the
> output of the GE PLL exciter will have the stability
> of the ICOM, times 12, period.
> 
> Kevin Custer
> 
> Wade Lake wrote:
> 
>I stand corrected, in part anyway.  In this
> GE radio the deviation is indeed at a divide by 12
> from the output.  This is why I said "usually", I am
> not familiar with the intricate details of all
> radios.  Especially GE's, I was a Motorola tech for
> quite a few years.  I will leave the GE's to others
> like you who are more familiar with their inner
> workings. 
> 
>However, even in this particular radio, I
> noticed the PLL circuit uses a X3 from the original
> ICOM freq as the PLL reference.  This is made
> obvious by the divide by 4 fed back from the output
> of the VCO.  So even though the PLL circuit here is
> not more stable by a factor of 12, as I initially
> stated, it theoretically should be more stable by a
> factor of 4.  This does not appy to deviation in
> this case but it will most definately apply to
> frequency drift.
> 
>   My 2 and a half cents worth.
> 
>   Wade - KR7K
> 
> 
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Kevin Custer 
>   To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 11:04 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL
> vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.
> 
> 
>   Hi Wade,
> 
>   I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your
> stability theory on the GE Mastr II PLL high-band
> exciter.  If you refer to the PDF manual for the PLL
> exciter:
>  
>

>  You will see under the "Description" the exciter
> utilizes the 12th multiple of the FM ICOM to lock
> the VCO on frequency.  It goes into more detail
> about this in the "Circuit Analysis" section of the
> same manual.  So, the FM ICOM's multiplication
> certainly does factor into the stability of the PLL
> exciter, and one can generalize it has the same
> frequency stability as its multiplier counterpart. 
> In addition, the modulation of the PLL exciter is
> produced in the crystal reference (FM ICOM) as well,
> and is also multiplied up to the desired deviation. 
> Since the time constant of the Lead/Lag filter
> allows for near instantaneous correction of the VCO,
> changes in frequency at the audio rate are
> superimposed onto the output frequency.
> 
>   Hope this helps...
>   Kevin Custer
> 
> 
>   Wade Lake wrote:
> 
> Kevin Custer wrote:
> 
> The advantage here is the same frequency stability
> is achieved by the use of the quartz reference
> 
>  Actually, a PLL oscillator is much more stable
> than a multiplied crystal oscillator.  because with
> a multiplied quartz oscillator, frequency drift and
> frequency error (usually deviation as well) is
> multiplied by 12, at least in the case of the High
> band GE MASTR II.
> 
>  Not to dissagree with you Kevin, your answer is
> good, I think you nailed it.  I just wanted to point
> out that stability is a very strong point of the
> PLL.  Since it operates on the desired frequency, no
> frequency error/drift is multiplied.
> 
> Wade - KR7K
> 
> 




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[Repeater-Builder] Re: GP-68 info

[Mike Morris WA6ILQ]

Anybody got an answer to this email which I got
from a friend?
>Do you know anybody who can do an alignment on a GP-68?
>I acquired one which is almost 1khz off frequency and would like to

>get it calibrated correctly.   Or is it something I can do
myself?
Mike WA6ILQ













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[Repeater-Builder] Re: GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciterin duplex service.

[N5IUF]

I don't want to beat a dead horse, or be critical of anyone, or act like a 
"know it all" but I may be able to shed a little more light on this 
subject for those who are interested.  Those of you who aren't, just hit 
the delete key now.
 
I have designed many different PLL circuits in transmitters and receivers, 
many of which are still in production today.  I think some people are 
assuming that because GE developed a VHF PLL exciter that had better phase 
noise performance over the old high band "multiplier" exciter, that PLL, by 
nature, has better noise performance.  This is not really the case.  
GE's old high band exciter had some inherent "issues" that were the root cause 
of the poor performance, and a lot of the noise comes from the phase 
modulator, and not the crystal oscillator circuit is not the entire 
culprit.  
 
In most cases, for this discussion, a PLL is a closed loop 
circuit that uses a crystal oscillator to Phase Lock another 
oscillator.  Because a PLL is a closed loop circuit, any noise transcribed 
inside the loop is carried throughout.  This means that the phase noise of 
the reference crystal oscillator directly effects the total output phase 
noise, just like it does in a "multiplier" design.  In fact, a PLL is like 
a chain, and is only as good as its weakest link.
 
When it comes to Phase noise of an oscillator, the higher the Q of the 
resonant circuit, the better the phase noise.  An LC circuit generally will 
have a Q of around 100 where a crystal can have a Q of 10,000 
to 500,000, thus a crystal oscillator generally yields superior phase noise 
performance over LC circuits, such as the VCO in the GE PLL exciter.  I 
have seen instances where engineers have use conventional "multiplier" circuits 
(fundamentally similar to the old GE highband exciter, without the "issues") to 
achieve superior phase noise performance over a PLL circuit, because the phase 
noise of the VCO was the weakest link in the PLL circuit.  The dividers, 
phase detectors and loop bandwidth also can factor in additional phase 
noise.
 
I think GE realized that the old multiplier highband exciter needed a 
design revisit, and chose a PLL version over a conventional multiplier for more 
reasons than just enhanced noise performance.  The PLL version requires 
very little tuning, thus reducing labor and overall cost.  I'm certain that 
they could have developed a "multiplier" version that exceeds the noise 
performance of the PLL unit, had they chosen that route.
 
It is quite possible that the reason GE never came out with a UHF 
PLL version for that era, may have been due to not being able to beat the 
performance/cost of the UHF multiplier unit.
 
The rest of you guys who continued reading...you can hit the delete key 
now..
 
Take care,
 
Chris Hudgins - N5IUF
 
In a 
  Mastr II PLL exciter you have two oscillators, one is the> crystal 
  oscillator described earlier, and, in addition, a free running> L-C 
  tuned oscillator capable of producing frequencies directly on the> 
  desired operating frequency.  You see, we now have an oscillator 
  that> operates directly on the high-band, at its fundamental frequency; 
  NOT> one that has been 'multiplied' up to it.  The quartz derived 
  oscillator> is used to set the desired operating frequency by holding 
  it still.> This is done by 'locking' the frequency of the free running 
  oscillator> to the quartz derived oscillator.  The advantage here 
  is the same> frequency stability is achieved by the use of the quartz 
  reference, but,> the output signal is much cleaner because it was not 
  'multiplied' up.> > Although there is more to it than this 
  generalization, you now see why> the PLL exciter is spectrally cleaner 
  than its multiplier counterpart.
 

 













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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance

[Paul Finch]

ARRL, if not there Atlantic Risk Management.  DO a Google search or
something.

-Original Message-
From: Mike Morris WA6ILQ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:15 AM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance



Contact the ARRL and ask them about their insurance program.
They've done this a few times and have a standard info package
they send out.

At 02:37 AM 12/19/04, you wrote:

>The local club is currently moving our repeter system, a linked three
>receiver site/one transmitter site to a single high tower location.  The
>tower owner requires us to have an equipment and libility insurance .
>Anyone with knowledge or recommendations as to who to contact for such
>coverage and/or the pricing we may expect, please advise. Will
>  appreciate your help
>
>Gene






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[Repeater-Builder] Re: GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciterin duplex service.

[Laryn Lohman]

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Paul Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It will come to 5 volts if you find a ferrite slug. I got 
> some out of an old HT... don't remember if it was a 
> Motorola or what, but it had the right size slugs for PLL 
> exciters. I *may* have more of them around, but would have 
> to look.
> 
> Paul N1BUG

Yup, I did the same thing.  I got my ferrite core from an old Motorola
HT.  It fit perfectly, and never had a second of problem with the PLL
exciter in 3.5 years.  Didn't do any mods at all to it except change
the core.  

I may have more cores around too  I'll look. 

Laryn K8TVZ







 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.

[Wade Lake]

Kevin,
 
     I now realize the mistake 
I was making in looking at this.  I am used to seeing newer PLL's with 
a much higher reference oscillator frequency and having a divider in the 
reference side before the Phase Comparator.  In that case the stability 
does improve over that of the reference oscillator, but that obviously does not 
apply here.
 
Sorry, I will shut up now.
 
Wade - KR7K  
 
- Original Message - 
From: Kevin Custer 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 

Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier 
(crystal) exciter in duplex service.
Wade,If the PLL reference from the crystal is X3, and the 
VCO sample has been divided by 4, what is the product of 3 times 4?  The 
answer is 12.  If the transmitter was any more stable in frequency than the 
reference, shouldn't one think the stated frequency stability would be better 
than 2 PPM or 5 PPM, which is the stability of the ICOM itself?  Many times 
the manual states the VCO is locked to the 12th multiple of the ICOM.  This 
means the output of the GE PLL exciter will have the stability of the ICOM, 
times 12, period.Kevin CusterWade Lake wrote:

  
  

   I stand corrected, 
  in part anyway.  In this GE radio the deviation is indeed at a divide by 
  12 from the output.  This is why I said "usually", I am not familiar with 
  the intricate details of all radios.  Especially GE's, I was a 
  Motorola tech for quite a few years.  I will leave the GE's to 
  others like you who are more familiar with their inner 
  workings. 
   
   However, even in this 
  particular radio, I noticed the PLL circuit uses a X3 from the original ICOM 
  freq as the PLL reference.  This is made obvious by the divide by 4 
  fed back from the output of the VCO.  So even though the PLL circuit here 
  is not more stable by a factor of 12, as I initially stated, it theoretically 
  should be more stable by a factor of 4.  This does not appy to deviation 
  in this case but it will most definately apply to frequency 
drift.
   
  My 2 and a half cents worth.
   
  Wade - KR7K
   
   
  - 
  Original Message - 
  From: 
  Kevin Custer 
  
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  
  Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 11:04 AM
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier 
  (crystal) exciter in duplex service.
  Hi Wade,I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your 
  stability theory on the GE Mastr II PLL high-band exciter.  If you refer 
  to the PDF manual for the PLL exciter:  
  You will see under the "Description" the exciter utilizes the 12th multiple of 
  the FM ICOM to lock the VCO on frequency.  It goes into more detail about 
  this in the "Circuit Analysis" section of the same manual.  So, the FM 
  ICOM's multiplication certainly does factor into the stability of the PLL 
  exciter, and one can generalize it has the same frequency stability as its 
  multiplier counterpart.  In addition, the modulation of the PLL exciter 
  is produced in the crystal reference (FM ICOM) as well, and is also multiplied 
  up to the desired deviation.  Since the time constant of the Lead/Lag 
  filter allows for near instantaneous correction of the VCO, changes in 
  frequency at the audio rate are superimposed onto the output 
  frequency.Hope this helps...Kevin CusterWade Lake 
  wrote:
  
Kevin Custer wrote:

The advantage here is the same frequency stability is achieved by the use of the quartz reference

 Actually, a PLL oscillator is much more stable than a multiplied crystal oscillator.  because with a multiplied quartz oscillator, frequency drift and frequency error (usually deviation as well) is multiplied by 12, at least in the case of the High band GE MASTR II.

 Not to dissagree with you Kevin, your answer is good, I think you nailed it.  I just wanted to point out that stability is a very strong point of the PLL.  Since it operates on the desired frequency, no frequency error/drift is multiplied.

Wade - KR7K













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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance

[Mark Holman]

Its called tweaking the Spam Filter, and its not a set it and forget it.

I have continually have to check the TRASH bin and train the program what to 
ignore or trash it.

SOFTWARE is not a perfect componet subject to revisions, bugs, fixes, Beta 
Versions, etc..

Mark Holman  AB8RU
Happy Holidays
- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck Kelsey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance


>
> People need to remember that email is sometimes not a very reliable means 
> of
> communication. Many times I've found email quarantined in my ISP's spam
> filter. I've also had times when the email just plain doesn't get through.
> It's easy to have something go wrong and have a computer hiccup, loose a
> bunch of messages due to a failing hard drive or for other network 
> problems.
> Sometimes an email will end up on the wrong individuals computer or it 
> could
> have been sent to an inaccurate email address. My point is that lots can
> happen out there in cyberspace - it's not a perfect solution to
> communicating.
>
> Chuck
> WB2EDV
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Neil McKie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 2:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance
>
>
>>
>>
>>  Good for you Chuck!
>>
>>  Neil
>>
>> Chuck Kelsey wrote:
>>>
>>> Although I don't contact them often, when I did email them (ARRL)
>>> last winter regarding a license upgrade, someone got right back
>>> to me and we had a meaningful exchange of emails. No problem at all.
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>> WB2EDV
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciterin duplex service.

[Paul Kelley]

It will come to 5 volts if you find a ferrite slug. I got 
some out of an old HT... don't remember if it was a 
Motorola or what, but it had the right size slugs for PLL 
exciters. I *may* have more of them around, but would have 
to look.

Paul N1BUG


On Sunday 19 December 2004 07:01 pm, DCFluX wrote:
> I am currently running the MASTR-II PLL exciter on
> 146.640 MHz.  I am running the G2 version and have never
> been able to find a ferrite core to replace the aluminum
> one.  It is alot easier to tune than the multiplier
> board. Still I can only get the tune test point voltage
> to 3.6 volts and that is with the slug removed from the
> form.  Recently had a problem where it was being "ghost
> keyed" with a voltage that would creep up to 1.2 volts on
> the TX osc line to the exciter.  This was traced to a bad
> PNP transistor in the station control module, which was
> replaced with a radio shack MPS2907.





 
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[Repeater-Builder] Frequency Calibration (was Re: Bomar TC'ing elements and ICOMS)

[kc7gf]

Since your on the ham bands, there is no requirement as to you being on any frequency as long as it is in within the repeater limits of the ham bands. However, your local coordinating council may require you are within +/- so many cycles. I like to stick to the commercial standards in use in each band. I try to keep my 450's within 500 cycles but usually you can check it with a service monitor every month or so and keep it within + or - 100 to 200 cycles if you are using converted commercial gear in a temperature controlled environment (with temperature compensated Icoms/channels elements.) Remember new "green" crystals will age for the first year or so.

Art - KC7GF













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