[Repeater-Builder] Re: Duplexer tuning with an Oscilloscope

[jistabout]

Hi Joel,


Well, setup is quite simple - For example, if tuning a complete 
pass/notch type of duplexer, I connect the output of the signal 
generator to the antenna port of the duplexer. I then connect the 
scope to whichever side of the duplexer I'm currently tuning, and I 
also connect a 50-ohm load to the remaining port.

Then, I set the frequency of the generator to the pass frequency for 
the side which I'm tuning, and set the generator output high enough 
so as to trigger the scope. After the scope is showing a stable 
display, simply tune the pass adjustments for *maximum* amplitude on 
the scope, decreasing the generator output as needed. After tuning 
the pass adjustments, simply retune the signal generator to the notch 
frequency for the side which you are tuning, and tune the notch 
adjustments for *minimum* amplitude on the scope, while increasing 
the generator output as needed. 

Repeat the above procedure for the other side of the duplexer.

All you're doing is using the scope as an output amplitude indicator, 
just as you would a Spectrum Analyzer (without tracking generator). 
The neat thing about this is that even VERY small amplitude changes 
can be easily seen on the scope, so precise tuning is possible, just 
as with the spectrum analyzer.

I've tuned several Motorola T-1500 series UHF pass/notch duplexers 
this way, both 2 and 4 cavity units, and they work great - no 
measureable desense.

My Oscilloscope uses a Tektronix 7A24 vertical amp plugin, which has 
a 50-ohm input. But I have also done this with a 7A26 and a 7A16 
(both have 1-megohm inputs), and achieved the same results.

If I remember correctly, for frequencies around 440-450Mhz, the scope 
timebase is set at 50ns, and the vertical amp at 1v per division or 
so. Actually, I usually just set the timebase so as to show several 
cycles on the display.

Any more questions let me know :).

- Darrell/KA7BTV





--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "v44kai" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Darrell,
> 
> I never done it, and will like to try it.  Can you send me a sketch 
of the 
> setup, with a brief explanation of your procedure for accomplishing 
this? 
> Will appreciate it very much Darrell.
> 
> v44kai.Joel.
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "jistabout" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 12:06 AM
> Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Duplexer tuning with an Oscilloscope
> 
> 
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Just curious if anyone here has used a wide-band oscilloscope 
(along
> > with a signal source, of course) for duplexer and/or filter 
tuning?
> >
> > I use an older Tektronix 7904 500mhz scope along with an HP 8640B
> > Signal Generator and it works great. I can't really measure filter
> > response, but I can see amplitude changes both large and small 
very
> > well, which allows for quite precise tuning. I've tuned a couple 
of
> > pass/notch type duplexers and several notch-only units with this 
setup
> > and they all work nicely.
> >
> > Anyway, wonder if anyone else does this and general comments on 
the
> > technique. Thanks!
> >
> > - Darrell/KA7BTV
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 

> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1512 - Release Date: 
6/21/2008 
> 9:27 AM
>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Duplexer tuning with an Oscilloscope

[Steve Bosshard (NU5D)]

This would not be your typical audio frequency or 20 Mhz vertical 
bandwidth scope, I suppose,  I have used a Bearcat programmable radio 
scanner and an FM10 for a generator to tune pass and reject.  Steve NU5D


jistabout wrote:
> Hi Joel,
>
>
> Well, setup is quite simple - For example, if tuning a complete 
>   
>   

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Duplexer tuning with an Oscilloscope

[Joe]

Many years ago, I tuned up a set of 220Mhz homebrew duplexers with a 
5Mhz scope.  I built a 50 ohm load into an aluminum mini-box and placed 
a diode inside the box near the load.  I then used the scope to detect 
the voltage developed by the diode as the power increased or decreased.  
This was a very crude way of tuning the duplexer, but it did work.  
Those were the fun days when you really didn't know you were doing 
things the wrong way, but you still could make things work.  I remember 
driving 5 miles from my house and being able to key up the repeater with 
my Midland 13-509.  I was ecstatic!  Oh, for the simpler days of Midland 
repeaters and Hamtronics controllers.  You wonder how we ever talked to 
anyone on those crappy repeaters.

73, Joe, K1ike


Steve Bosshard (NU5D) wrote:
> This would not be your typical audio frequency or 20 Mhz vertical 
> bandwidth scope, I suppose,  I have used a Bearcat programmable radio 
> scanner and an FM10 for a generator to tune pass and reject.  Steve NU5D
>
>
> jistabout wrote:
>   

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Duplexer tuning with an Oscilloscope

[Ron Wright]

The one problem with using an scope for duplexer tuning most scopes have a 
5V-5mv vert range.  This is only 60 db, not near enough for duplexer tuning.  
Using a diode detector reduces this even more due to diode drop.  This is 
getting down to using a Bird watt meter with a number of slugs to tune a 
duplexer.

You can compensate this with higher power into the duplexer, but one should 
never tune with much power.

To tune a duplexer one needs a meter/sensor that can read down to the 10 uV 
range.  From 1 V this is about 100 db range, what is needed for good duplexer 
tuning.  I guess one could help with a pre-amp on the scope.

73, ron, n9ee/r





>From: jistabout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: 2008/06/23 Mon AM 04:13:04 EDT
>To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Duplexer tuning with an Oscilloscope

>
>Hi Joel,
>
>Well, setup is quite simple - For example, if tuning a complete 
>pass/notch type of duplexer, I connect the output of the signal 
>generator to the antenna port of the duplexer. I then connect the 
>scope to whichever side of the duplexer I'm currently tuning, and I 
>also connect a 50-ohm load to the remaining port.
>
>Then, I set the frequency of the generator to the pass frequency for 
>the side which I'm tuning, and set the generator output high enough 
>so as to trigger the scope. After the scope is showing a stable 
>display, simply tune the pass adjustments for *maximum* amplitude on 
>the scope, decreasing the generator output as needed. After tuning 
>the pass adjustments, simply retune the signal generator to the notch 
>frequency for the side which you are tuning, and tune the notch 
>adjustments for *minimum* amplitude on the scope, while increasing 
>the generator output as needed. 
>
>Repeat the above procedure for the other side of the duplexer.
>
>All you're doing is using the scope as an output amplitude indicator, 
>just as you would a Spectrum Analyzer (without tracking generator). 
>The neat thing about this is that even VERY small amplitude changes 
>can be easily seen on the scope, so precise tuning is possible, just 
>as with the spectrum analyzer.
>
>I've tuned several Motorola T-1500 series UHF pass/notch duplexers 
>this way, both 2 and 4 cavity units, and they work great - no 
>measureable desense.
>
>My Oscilloscope uses a Tektronix 7A24 vertical amp plugin, which has 
>a 50-ohm input. But I have also done this with a 7A26 and a 7A16 
>(both have 1-megohm inputs), and achieved the same results.
>
>If I remember correctly, for frequencies around 440-450Mhz, the scope 
>timebase is set at 50ns, and the vertical amp at 1v per division or 
>so. Actually, I usually just set the timebase so as to show several 
>cycles on the display.
>
>Any more questions let me know :).
>
>- Darrell/KA7BTV
>
>--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "v44kai" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Darrell,
>> 
>> I never done it, and will like to try it.  Can you send me a sketch 
>of the 
>> setup, with a brief explanation of your procedure for accomplishing 
>this? 
>> Will appreciate it very much Darrell.
>> 
>> v44kai.Joel.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "jistabout" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 12:06 AM
>> Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Duplexer tuning with an Oscilloscope
>> 
>> 
>> > Hi All,
>> >
>> > Just curious if anyone here has used a wide-band oscilloscope 
>(along
>> > with a signal source, of course) for duplexer and/or filter 
>tuning?
>> >
>> > I use an older Tektronix 7904 500mhz scope along with an HP 8640B
>> > Signal Generator and it works great. I can't really measure filter
>> > response, but I can see amplitude changes both large and small 
>very
>> > well, which allows for quite precise tuning. I've tuned a couple 
>of
>> > pass/notch type duplexers and several notch-only units with this 
>setup
>> > and they all work nicely.
>> >
>> > Anyway, wonder if anyone else does this and general comments on 
>the
>> > technique. Thanks!
>> >
>> > - Darrell/KA7BTV
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> --
>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1512 - Release Date: 
>6/21/2008 
>> 9:27 AM
>>
>
>   
> 


Ron Wright, N9EE
727-376-6575
MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS
Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL
No tone, all are welcome.

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Anyone familiar with the LDG RVS-8 Voting system?

[wd8chl]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> At 6/20/2008 15:52, you wrote:
> 
>> I'm not sure I follow. I would think that for peak and valley detection to
>> work right, you need to look at the voice spectrum, not the noise spectrum,
>> and use the ratio of the peaks to valleys to compute a value indicitive of
>> the S/N, and then compare S/N values among the active channels to determine
>> which gets voted. I think that this kind of peak to valley ratioed
>> comparison would help "even out" differences in audio levels between
>> receivers (since you're comparing ratios, not absolute levels). I would
>> also think that by looking at the audio passband alone, it would also
>> minimize the detrimental effect of frequency response differences between
>> sources, particulary with regard to the typical high-end rolloff above the
>> audio passband for sources backhauled across links as compared to the local
>> receiver, which is often the most challenging obstacle to overcome as
>> mentioned previously.
> 
> Has anyone actually designed a voter than works on this principle?  One 
> issue I see is that proper operation of the voter may depend on "proper" 
> user input signals.  A user radio with a hot mic in a noisy environment 
> (hence constant deviation) would not be properly voted, particularly if the 
> user wasn't moving.  Several examples of such a scenario occurring during 
> the LA Marathon come to mind...
> 
> Bob NO6B


The GE voters work this way-and have since the Mastr Pro days.

[Repeater-Builder] Re: Duplexer tuning with an Oscilloscope

[w6nct]

Hi Darrell,

I've done it with an oscilloscope (slower than yours) and a
Sweep-Marker generator; but not with just the oscilloscope, signal
generator and frequency counter.  

If I recall, the HP 8640B is also an RF Signal Generator; so if
combined with an RF-detector and your oscilloscope and frequency
counter, you could "theoretically" do it.  I have tuned simple filters
with a signal-generator, frequency counter and an oscilloscope; but
haven't had any luck with tuning full duplexers this way.  The problem
with this approach is that it is like trying to understand what's
happening in the forest by only looking at one tree at a time.  What I
mean by this is that you will see the apparent changes at one
frequency, without seeing what's happening to the spectrum around it. 

If you were only looking to tune a single notch band-pass circuit,
then it might be Ok to just use the equipment you listed; but today's
duplexers are made up of several band-pass and several notch stages,
all working on a common signal.  You can easily tweak one piece and
completely destroy your ability to meet the overall goal (because you
aren't also looking at the spectrum around the one frequency).

The other (not-so-intuitive) part to this is that it is often
difficult to do the tuning of a duplexer piece-meal; not impossible,
just difficult.  What I mean by this is trying to tune one stage
(cavity), then another, then another; and combining it all together
into the overall duplexer system.  The problem is that the
interconnecting pieces of coax become part of the tuned circuit.  Once
combined together, one cavity's tuning can impact the adjacent
cavities.  When I pre-cut the interconnecting cables to the specific
resonant lengths, I could get much closer to having the combined
system pretty close; but I've always had to adjust things just a
little after it was all connected together as a duplexer system.
 
I am also told that a service monitor or spectrum analyzer with a
"tracking generator" built-in is also a preferred method; but I have
never been able to afford either.

A Sweep Generator effectively turns the oscilloscope into a spectrum
analyzer (so that you can see the forest); and a Sweep-Marker
Generator also provides you references to use to easily make your
adjustments (letting you see which trees are important to you).  To my
perception, a decent Sweep-Marker Generator and even a home-made
RF-detector can promote even a relatively low bandwidth oscilloscope
into something nearly equivalent to an expensive spectrum analyzer
with a tracking generator.

By the way, you can often find used Sweep Generators around that will
work on Amateur Radio frequencies (especially VHF/UHF); many that were
made to help align TVs are even applicable.  If it doesn't have the
Marker Generator built-in, you could substitute the signal generator
and frequency counter to inject a reference marker at a known
frequency; but it will take you a bit longer to continually adjust the
setup. 

Anyway, that was my 2-cents; hopefully it was useful.

de W6NCT (Vern) 



--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "jistabout" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just curious if anyone here has used a wide-band oscilloscope (along 
> with a signal source, of course) for duplexer and/or filter tuning?
> 
> I use an older Tektronix 7904 500mhz scope along with an HP 8640B 
> Signal Generator and it works great. 

...
 
> - Darrell/KA7BTV

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Duplexer tuning with an Oscilloscope

[Ron Wright]

The best instrument I used to tune a duplexer was and IFR spectrum anal with 
built in tracking gen.  It output a sweep and displayed on a large 9 inch 
screen.  Had tunable freq markers and was built machine.  Let you know all that 
was going on except the SWR/impedance.  Could tell where all the notches and 
passes were at the same time.  This was over 20 years ago and know they have 
something better today, but still it worked great.  Had enought dynamic range 
on output and input for 100 db range.

73, ron, n9ee/r




>From: w6nct <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: 2008/06/23 Mon PM 12:35:42 EDT
>To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Duplexer tuning with an Oscilloscope

>
>Hi Darrell,
>
>I've done it with an oscilloscope (slower than yours) and a
>Sweep-Marker generator; but not with just the oscilloscope, signal
>generator and frequency counter.  
>
>If I recall, the HP 8640B is also an RF Signal Generator; so if
>combined with an RF-detector and your oscilloscope and frequency
>counter, you could "theoretically" do it.  I have tuned simple filters
>with a signal-generator, frequency counter and an oscilloscope; but
>haven't had any luck with tuning full duplexers this way.  The problem
>with this approach is that it is like trying to understand what's
>happening in the forest by only looking at one tree at a time.  What I
>mean by this is that you will see the apparent changes at one
>frequency, without seeing what's happening to the spectrum around it. 
>
>If you were only looking to tune a single notch band-pass circuit,
>then it might be Ok to just use the equipment you listed; but today's
>duplexers are made up of several band-pass and several notch stages,
>all working on a common signal.  You can easily tweak one piece and
>completely destroy your ability to meet the overall goal (because you
>aren't also looking at the spectrum around the one frequency).
>
>The other (not-so-intuitive) part to this is that it is often
>difficult to do the tuning of a duplexer piece-meal; not impossible,
>just difficult.  What I mean by this is trying to tune one stage
>(cavity), then another, then another; and combining it all together
>into the overall duplexer system.  The problem is that the
>interconnecting pieces of coax become part of the tuned circuit.  Once
>combined together, one cavity's tuning can impact the adjacent
>cavities.  When I pre-cut the interconnecting cables to the specific
>resonant lengths, I could get much closer to having the combined
>system pretty close; but I've always had to adjust things just a
>little after it was all connected together as a duplexer system.
> 
>I am also told that a service monitor or spectrum analyzer with a
>"tracking generator" built-in is also a preferred method; but I have
>never been able to afford either.
>
>A Sweep Generator effectively turns the oscilloscope into a spectrum
>analyzer (so that you can see the forest); and a Sweep-Marker
>Generator also provides you references to use to easily make your
>adjustments (letting you see which trees are important to you).  To my
>perception, a decent Sweep-Marker Generator and even a home-made
>RF-detector can promote even a relatively low bandwidth oscilloscope
>into something nearly equivalent to an expensive spectrum analyzer
>with a tracking generator.
>
>By the way, you can often find used Sweep Generators around that will
>work on Amateur Radio frequencies (especially VHF/UHF); many that were
>made to help align TVs are even applicable.  If it doesn't have the
>Marker Generator built-in, you could substitute the signal generator
>and frequency counter to inject a reference marker at a known
>frequency; but it will take you a bit longer to continually adjust the
>setup. 
>
>Anyway, that was my 2-cents; hopefully it was useful.
>
>de W6NCT (Vern) 
>
>--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "jistabout" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Just curious if anyone here has used a wide-band oscilloscope (along 
>> with a signal source, of course) for duplexer and/or filter tuning?
>> 
>> I use an older Tektronix 7904 500mhz scope along with an HP 8640B 
>> Signal Generator and it works great. 
>
>...
> 
>> - Darrell/KA7BTV
>
>   
> 


Ron Wright, N9EE
727-376-6575
MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS
Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL
No tone, all are welcome.

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Antenna mounted near a water tank on wood pole

[Joe]

Hello Dave,

I don't think that the water company would allow a non-standard use of 
Rohn 25 on their property, due to liabilities.  I don't imagine that 
Rohn has any approved plans to mount a tower in such a fashion.

73, Joe, K1ike

N0ATH wrote:
> 
> *Hello Joe - I would try to find at least 90 feet of Rohn 25 *
> *and anchor it to the pole - then mount your antenna on*
> *the tower and you would be able to have an earth ground,*
> *a built in ladder, and something to tie your feedline off to.*
> *I recently bought 210 foot for $180 on the ground - I think*
> *you would appreciate the accessibility after a few years.*
> *Just an opinion - Dave / NØATH 73*
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Joe 
> *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
> 
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:49 PM
> *Subject:* [Repeater-Builder] Antenna mounted near a water tank on 
> wood pole

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Anyone familiar with the LDG RVS-8 Voting system?

[Nate Duehr]

Jeff DePolo wrote:
>  
>> Or, bring all the remote receivers in on digital links, and 
>> encode a bitstream carrying continuous quieting level data?
> 
> Sounds like a modernization of the old TAC system that used in-band tone
> signalling to indicate quieting levels.  The quieting level was represented
> by two tones, A, and B, with A-only, A and B, or B-only representing 10, 20,
> and 30 dB quieting respectively IIRC.

What would be FAR more interesting (but hard to build) would be a 
"digital voter" for the fully-digital systems like P25, D-STAR, etc.

The digital signal is received at mutltiple sites, sent digitally to the 
voter, which does the math (very fast) by looking at the streams, 
including the forward-error-correction (FEC) bits and seeing which 
receiver is REALLY receiving the cleanest signal, and sends that on to 
the transmitter.

Do that with as little buffering as possible (some is inevitable) and 
your voting would feel "continuous" on a fully-digital system like P25, 
D-STAR, etc... any system where the user radio does the A/D conversion.

You also need a master clock source you trust to "align" all the stuff 
that's flying toward the voter.

There's already a working prototype of a "D-STAR extender" that receives 
a D-STAR signal from a standard FM discriminator and decodes it in PC 
software, and forwards it to a D-STAR Gateway for re-transmission, but 
that requires a separate receive frequency for the "extender" other than 
the repeater's input frequency.  Not spectrally efficient.

But it's a "start" on better things.

It *could* even be put on the input frequency and different callsign 
routes used to "select" a receiver if the Icom implementation of D-STAR 
didn't have their repeaters willing to repeat even if they missed the 
routing information (i.e. noisy signal to the main receiver site).

Nate WY0X

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Anyone familiar with the LDG RVS-8 Voting system?

[Nate Duehr]

Cort Buffington wrote:

> And for the rest of the list, i can take this conversation with Jeff 
> off-line if we're putting out a bad S/N ratio (pun intended)

I'm enjoying reading along.  How else do we all learn and come up with 
interesting new ideas?

:-)

Nate WY0X

[Repeater-Builder] Two Tone Pagers

[kb5vjy]

Greetings,

   Our OEP/ARES group in Ouachita Parish, Louisiana, is looking for 
Two Tone Pagers for our 443.800 Repeater.  If any of you might have 
any Two tone UHF pagers sitting around your shops/shacks, that you 
are not using, please consider sending em my way.   Thanks

73 de Joe KB5VJY
443.800 

[Repeater-Builder] F.S. CAT-100

[n6icw]

CAT-100 Automatic Control Operator 

Just listed on ebay,  Item number: 110264390893

Thanks Chris N6ICW

[Repeater-Builder] Re: anyone know backdoor to csi tone panels

[Mike Dietrich]

Hi group,
Does anyone know of a backdoor code or a way to reset the access code on the 
CSI-32 (not comm spec) tone panels?
Any word on where the company went for support?
They were in Lynnwood, Washington

Thanks,
Mike
   

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Duplexer tuning with an Oscilloscope

[v44kai]

Hi Darrell,

Thanks for the info, try it one these good day, and let you know.

v44kai.Joel.


- Original Message - 
From: "jistabout" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 3:13 AM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Duplexer tuning with an Oscilloscope

--  -

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: anyone know backdoor to csi tone panels

[Tom Parker]

I think you can remove the battery for 30 minutes or so and it will 
revert back to factory defaults.  I know we do that for Trident 
controllers... can't remember for sure on the CSI's, but I think that's 
correct.


thp

Mike Dietrich wrote:


Hi group,
Does anyone know of a backdoor code or a way to reset the access code 
on the CSI-32 (not comm spec) tone panels?

Any word on where the company went for support?
They were in Lynnwood, Washington
 
Thanks,

Mike

 

 

[Repeater-Builder] recommendation requested....tripod mount install

[kfd29]

Looking at mounting a DB224 rooftop. The easiest option would be to use 
the existing tripod, which is bolted and welded to the steel rooftop. 
Any opinions on this? Can't find any data on the tripod as far as 
weight loading, etc. Would a heavy duty tripod hold a 20 foot antenna 
without a problem in this situation? I'm thinking it may be fine, 
possibly with some guy lines as well.

[Repeater-Builder] Re: anyone know backdoor to csi tone panels

[skipp025]

Mike, 

Check out my free web page on the subject... and after reading 
it I can answer questions as I am/was a Service Station for CSI 
Tone Panels.  The back door code information is available on the 
page below. 

http://www.radiowrench.com/sonic/so02010.html 

and check out the Super 32 and CSI Plus information on the 
same sonic page section. 

http://www.radiowrench.com/sonic

cheers, 
skipp  

skipp025 at yahoo.com 

>  "Mike Dietrich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi group,
> Does anyone know of a backdoor code or a way to reset the access
code on the CSI-32 (not comm spec) tone panels?
> Any word on where the company went for support?
> They were in Lynnwood, Washington
> 
> Thanks,
> Mike
>

RE: [Repeater-Builder] recommendation requested....tripod mount install

[Eric Lemmon]

You'd be surprised how much stress a tall antenna like the DB224 can put on
a mount.  If a high wind is blowing in line with one of the three legs,
there can be several hundred pounds of tension pulling up on one bolt-
enough to rip the anchor out of the truss if it is not really robust.  You
should take care to ensure that the mounting hardware under the roof can
take the stress.  Stainless-steel bolts, half-inch or larger, might be a
good choice.

If high winds are a concern, it would be a very good idea to install
non-conductive guy lines using a product such as PhillyStran.  Don't use
Nylon or polypropylene rope, which stretches easily.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
 

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kfd29
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 7:04 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] recommendation requestedtripod mount install

Looking at mounting a DB224 rooftop. The easiest option would be to use 
the existing tripod, which is bolted and welded to the steel rooftop. 
Any opinions on this? Can't find any data on the tripod as far as 
weight loading, etc. Would a heavy duty tripod hold a 20 foot antenna 
without a problem in this situation? I'm thinking it may be fine, 
possibly with some guy lines as well.

[Repeater-Builder] Re: anyone know backdoor to csi tone panels

[skipp025]

No cigar,

The backup memory contents are stored in NVram or Zeropower 
chips. 

cheers,
s. 

> Tom Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I think you can remove the battery for 30 minutes or so and it will 
> revert back to factory defaults.  I know we do that for Trident 
> controllers... can't remember for sure on the CSI's, but I think that's 
> correct.
> 
> thp
> 
> Mike Dietrich wrote:
> 
> > Hi group,
> > Does anyone know of a backdoor code or a way to reset the access code 
> > on the CSI-32 (not comm spec) tone panels?
> > Any word on where the company went for support?
> > They were in Lynnwood, Washington
> >  
> > Thanks,
> > Mike
> >
> >  
> >
> >
>

[Repeater-Builder] Reasonably low wind load antenna

[Tony VE6MVP]

Folks

We're moving a VHF amateur repeater to a 96' Trylon self supporting 
tower.  The overwhelming opinion is that our current 210C4 four bay folded 
dipole would be too much of a weight and wind load for that tower.


One comment has been the Ringo Ranger.   The wind load of the Cushcraft 
Ringo Ranger II ARX2B 
http://cushcraft.com/comm/support/pdf/RINGOS%20AR2%206%2010%20ARX450%20220B%202B.pdf 
is 0.5 square feet.   The windload of the Sinclar SD214 
http://www.sinclairtechnologies.com/catalog/resources/pdf/SD214-HF2P3LDF(D00S-LSABK)-DI.pdf 
(newer model to 210C4) is 5.57 square feet.  Although the ice area is 17.04 
sq ft.  The SD214 has a dbd gain of 7.2, dbi of 9.3.   The Ringo Ranger has 
dbi gain of 7.0.  However the coverage plot in rural slightly hilly Alberta 
isn't all that much different.


What would be suggestions for an alternative?  Comments?

Thanks, Tony
(rapidly learning lots about towers and repeaters)

Re: [Repeater-Builder] recommendation requested....tripod mount install

[Paul Plack]

"Heavy duty" is a little vague. At some point, the manufacturer of the tripod 
had to determine acceptable loading specs based on the materials and dimensions 
of the legs, etc. You could guestimate it, but that might fall short of the 
engineering rigor expected by insurance underwriters.

Do you know what was mounted on it before? Is it rusted, or in good shape? 
(Also an intermod consideration...)

73,
Paul, AE4KR

- Original Message - 
  From: kfd29 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:04 PM
  Subject: [Repeater-Builder] recommendation requestedtripod mount install


  Looking at mounting a DB224 rooftop. The easiest option would be to use 
  the existing tripod, which is bolted and welded to the steel rooftop. 
  Any opinions on this? Can't find any data on the tripod as far as 
  weight loading, etc. Would a heavy duty tripod hold a 20 foot antenna 
  without a problem in this situation? I'm thinking it may be fine, 
  possibly with some guy lines as well.



   

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Reasonably low wind load antenna

[Eric Lemmon]

Tony,

Please pose your questions about tower loading to the manufacturer of your
tower.  Make certain you have the exact wind area and weight data for your
antenna (not estimates or opinions) before you call Trylon.

The Ringo Ranger is an extremely poor choice for a repeater antenna.  Choose
something better- much better!

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
 

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony VE6MVP
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 7:28 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Reasonably low wind load antenna

Folks

We're moving a VHF amateur repeater to a 96' Trylon self supporting tower.
The overwhelming opinion is that our current 210C4 four bay folded dipole
would be too much of a weight and wind load for that tower.

One comment has been the Ringo Ranger.   The wind load of the Cushcraft
Ringo Ranger II ARX2B
http://cushcraft.com/comm/support/pdf/RINGOS%20AR2%206%2010%20ARX450%20220B%
202B.pdf
  is 0.5 square feet.   The windload of the Sinclar SD214
http://www.sinclairtechnologies.com/catalog/resources/pdf/SD214-HF2P3LDF(D00
S-LSABK)-DI.pdf
  (newer model to 210C4) is 5.57 square feet.  Although the
ice area is 17.04 sq ft.  The SD214 has a dbd gain of 7.2, dbi of 9.3.   The
Ringo Ranger has dbi gain of 7.0.  However the coverage plot in rural
slightly hilly Alberta isn't all that much different.

What would be suggestions for an alternative?  Comments?

Thanks, Tony 
(rapidly learning lots about towers and repeaters)

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: anyone know backdoor to csi tone panels

[Mike Dietrich]

Thanks for the reply skipp,
I had already seen your site from a google search.
The 2&3 trick only puts the panel in the tone translation mode and you can't 
change anything else
  - Original Message - 
  From: skipp025 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:21 PM
  Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: anyone know backdoor to csi tone panels



  Mike, 

  Check out my free web page on the subject... and after reading 
  it I can answer questions as I am/was a Service Station for CSI 
  Tone Panels. The back door code information is available on the 
  page below. 

  http://www.radiowrench.com/sonic/so02010.html 

  and check out the Super 32 and CSI Plus information on the 
  same sonic page section. 

  http://www.radiowrench.com/sonic

  cheers, 
  skipp 

  skipp025 at yahoo.com 

  > "Mike Dietrich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  >
  > Hi group,
  > Does anyone know of a backdoor code or a way to reset the access
  code on the CSI-32 (not comm spec) tone panels?
  > Any word on where the company went for support?
  > They were in Lynnwood, Washington
  > 
  > Thanks,
  > Mike
  >



   

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Reasonably low wind load antenna

[Tony VE6MVP]

At 07:46 PM 2008-06-23 -0700, Eric Lemmon wrote:


Please pose your questions about tower loading to the manufacturer of your
tower. Make certain you have the exact wind area and weight data for your
antenna (not estimates or opinions) before you call Trylon.


Ok, where can I find exact data for the 210C4?  Could you suggest a URL or 
Google search terms?  Using 210C4 and wind gives ten hits at Google with 
nothing relevant.



The Ringo Ranger is an extremely poor choice for a repeater antenna. Choose
something better- much better!


I'm looking for suggestions.  Is there a better mailing list than this to ask?

Tony

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: anyone know backdoor to csi tone panels

[Mike Dietrich]

Hi skipp, Thanks for the reply,
I had already seen your webpage from a google search earlier.
I tried the 2&3 trick that only puts the panel into the tone translation mode 
and you can't make any other changes from there.

I've got a variety of models of their panels i have picked up over the years so 
i know a lot about them also.

you can contact me off list for further info.

Mike
Specialized Communications
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: skipp025 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:21 PM
  Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: anyone know backdoor to csi tone panels



  Mike, 

  Check out my free web page on the subject... and after reading 
  it I can answer questions as I am/was a Service Station for CSI 
  Tone Panels. The back door code information is available on the 
  page below. 

  http://www.radiowrench.com/sonic/so02010.html 

  and check out the Super 32 and CSI Plus information on the 
  same sonic page section. 

  http://www.radiowrench.com/sonic

  cheers, 
  skipp 

  skipp025 at yahoo.com 

  > "Mike Dietrich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  >
  > Hi group,
  > Does anyone know of a backdoor code or a way to reset the access
  code on the CSI-32 (not comm spec) tone panels?
  > Any word on where the company went for support?
  > They were in Lynnwood, Washington
  > 
  > Thanks,
  > Mike
  >



   

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: software repeater controller

[Wayne]

  Linux and such have problems with drivers for some things that I need to  
do.
  Might be okay for something like a controller, as long as I could locate  
needed drivers.
  Intel seems to provide some drivers for many of their motherboards  
though, just not for printers and things I would want.
  As far as Windows not being stable enough, it depends on the version.
  I started using Windows 2000, as I got tired of BSOD's all the time with  
Win 98. I tried Win ME, and found it to be a total memory pigout  
specialist, so NG.
  I wound up going to Windows 2000, and found it would not crash.
  I would run it 24/7 on several different motherboards along the line.
  I only found 2 programs that I tried that were able to make it actually  
puke.
  I ran it 24/7 on a couple of different Intel Server motherboards, still  
have one set up, and unless something has happened while it has been  
stored in a box for a couple of years, it should fire up and take off from  
where it was last used.
  My current motherboard, also Intel, has Win 2000 on C drive, and Win  
Vista Ultimate on D drive, and I can boot to 2000 when I have the need to  
do so.
  Vista Ultimate seems to be very stable now, though Home Premium seemed to  
have a few bugs (though that could possibly be due to having to move it  
twice due to a lightning strike that took out a power supply and  
motherboard, and possibly there was more that I did not find).
  If I simply wnat something as a controller, or to run echolink through  
the repeater, i will most likely simply set up Windows 2000 once more on a  
uATX motherboard (to keep power use down a tad).
  I had also run NT 4.0 for a while, and it was very stable for the year I  
used it (trial copy that will no longer install on anything) Windows 2000  
is actually NT 5.0, which is one of the reasons it is so stable.

  However, I still would not use a PC as a controller for a repeater,  
unless I needed to use many ports and so on. For most repeaters, IMO, a  
controller made for the purpose works well enough and will simply reset  
itself in case of power outage, when power is restored.
  YMMV

  Wayne WA2YNE
  Imperial, Tejas

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:01:58 -0500, wd8chl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> jistabout wrote:
>
>> Just my opinion and experience of course, but I've found the Linux
>> Distros which I've tried (Red Hat, Debian, Mandrake and a few others)
>> to be cumbersome to set up and somewhat quirky compared to Windows,
>> especially a stripped-down lean copy of XP. Also, its not as easy to
>> install/use Echolink with Linux.
>
> ...I'm still trying to figure out how you took the .net out of XP. All
> the articles I read on XP when it came out said that .net is the basis
> of XP. Like DOS is the basis for 95/98. Or at least that it's  
> inextricable.
>
>> On the other hand, I've heard of repeater systems using Linux &
>> control software which work very well and are quite reliable.
>>
>> - Darrell/KA7BTV
>
> I haven't played with Linux yet, but it is MUCH more stable then Windows
> will EVER be. I have seen some hardware that had a Linux-based
> controller imbedded, and it just ran...and ran...and ran...
> About the only thing I've seen that was more stable was DEC VAX/VMS...:c)



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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Reasonably low wind load antenna

[no6b]

At 6/23/2008 19:28, you wrote:

>Folks
>
>We're moving a VHF amateur repeater to a 96' Trylon self supporting 
>tower.  The overwhelming opinion is that our current 210C4 four bay folded 
>dipole would be too much of a weight and wind load for that tower.
>
>One comment has been the Ringo Ranger.

In a word, yuk!

>The wind load of the Cushcraft Ringo Ranger II ARX2B 
> http://cushcraft.com/comm/support/pdf/RINGOS%20AR2%206%2010%20ARX450%20220B%202B.pdf
>  
> is 0.5 square feet.   The windload of the Sinclar SD214 
> http://www.sinclairtechnologies.com/catalog/resources/pdf/SD214-HF2P3LDF(D00S-LSABK)-DI.pdf
>  
> (newer model to 210C4) is 5.57 square feet.  Although the ice area is 
> 17.04 sq ft.  The SD214 has a dbd gain of 7.2, dbi of 9.3.   The Ringo 
> Ranger has dbi gain of 7.0.

Inflated gain figure: the antenna isn't long enough to make that much gain.

If you want low wind loading, you probably can't beat the Comet or Diamond 
antennas.  Only problem is the high gain versions (GP9/X500HNA) are going 
to bend a lot in high winds.  Haven't noticed a problem out here, but then 
again we don't often get winds > 50 MPH.

Bob NO6B

[Repeater-Builder] Re: Reasonably low wind load antenna

[k6jsi]

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Tony VE6MVP <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Folks
> 
> We're moving a VHF amateur repeater to a 96' Trylon self supporting 
> tower.  



> What would be suggestions for an alternative?  Comments?
> 
> Thanks, Tony
> (rapidly learning lots about towers and repeaters)
>

My experience with Trylon Towers is that they are very robust, and 
will probably perform much better than they say they will.  I have 
installed many of them in commercial applications, and I have been 
very pleased by their strength and overall performance.  I beleive you 
have nothing to worry about.  In my humble opinionPut up the 
Sinclair, and don't worry about it.

Shorty, K6JSI
San Diego

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Reasonably low wind load antenna

[tubeguy]

Try Sinclairs website.  Here is a link to what you probably have:

http://www.sinclairtechnologies.com/catalog/product.aspx?id=455

Maybe not but it's a start!

Trylon makes all kinds of versions of there 96 foot versions.  From the 
standard duty, medium duty, heavy duty Titan series all the way to there 
Super Titan series!  Depends what you have for a Trylon tower!  I've put 
210-C4's and A4's up on the medium and heavy duty Titans with no real 
problems other than I don't care for the diagonal braces they use.  The 
Super Titans are no problem other than the extreme angle of the members 
as you get to the top of the tower.  Real hard on the feet and ankles!  
For a lower cost tower like the Titan series, I usually go for one made 
by LB towers out of Russell Manitoba.  Much better design with "U" 
shaped cross braces, easier to climb and work on for an extend period, 
and heavier duty construction.  The "B4" versions are real nice for 
their intended applications.  Somewhat a copy of a Trylon but just 
better thought out IMO.  Of course YMMV!


Albert



Tony VE6MVP wrote:


At 07:46 PM 2008-06-23 -0700, Eric Lemmon wrote:

Please pose your questions about tower loading to the manufacturer of 
your

tower. Make certain you have the exact wind area and weight data for your
antenna (not estimates or opinions) before you call Trylon.



Ok, where can I find exact data for the 210C4?  Could you suggest a 
URL or Google search terms?  Using 210C4 and wind gives ten hits at 
Google with nothing relevant.


The Ringo Ranger is an extremely poor choice for a repeater antenna. 
Choose

something better- much better!



I'm looking for suggestions.  Is there a better mailing list than this 
to ask?


Tony