Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
Don't forget the FCC rules...in this case, I am only to assume (knowing MCH's identity) that this is taking place in Western Pennsylvania. That being said, my question is, if the repeater is coordinated by a governing body (WPRC) why would he/she complain about RC operations? The FCC rules, as far as I see them and have read, grant governing authority to the regional coordinating body to authorize said band plans per region. The operator of the RC equipment needs to yield way to the authorizing entity. Logical thinking, regardless of rules, would dictate that amateurs be good stewards of the frequencies they occupy and utilize appropriate 'channels' that do not interfere with other equipment. I would concur with 'DCFluX' in terms of getting crystals reground for a mere $50 (let's say) versus a repeater operator re-pairing, recalibrating, and retuning the entire repeater station. All the best, John, NF3Q MCH wrote: Does anyone have any experience with repeater operation vs RC operation (Remote Control)? I have an RC operator who is 'raising a stink' about a repeater that is 30 kHz away from one of his RC channels. BTW, he also wants to 'compromise' by offering to relocate the repeater off the 52-54 MHz segment so they will not impact his RC operations. Some compromise, huh? I think he has the impression that RC channels are 100 kHz wide (they are standard AM) because the 6M RC channels are spaced at 100 kHz (53.100, 53.200, 53.3500, 53.400, Etc). I've told him they cannot be more than 10 kHz wide, if that, and that the FC repeater would be only 16 kHz wide, and at 30 kHz away the two can coexist without interference. Oh, the repeater in question is at least 20 miles away from his flying site. Any input out there? Exactly how wide is his AM signal? Thanks, Joe M.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
Keep in mind that he believes repeater operation in 52-54 MHz will cause him interference. I already suggested the 50.800-51.000 MHz RC band. I have also mentioned that repeaters have been operating on the 52-54 MHz band for decades, coexisting with RC operations. I suggested that he has likely coped with signals on 53.490 and 53.510 MHz many times - only 10 kHz away. So, I asked him for any evidence that repeaters within 30 kHz cannot coexist with RC operations. Joe M. John D. Lewis, NF3Q wrote: Don't forget the FCC rules...in this case, I am only to assume (knowing MCH's identity) that this is taking place in Western Pennsylvania. That being said, my question is, if the repeater is coordinated by a governing body (WPRC) why would he/she complain about RC operations? The FCC rules, as far as I see them and have read, grant governing authority to the regional coordinating body to authorize said band plans per region. The operator of the RC equipment needs to yield way to the authorizing entity. Logical thinking, regardless of rules, would dictate that amateurs be good stewards of the frequencies they occupy and utilize appropriate 'channels' that do not interfere with other equipment. I would concur with 'DCFluX' in terms of getting crystals reground for a mere $50 (let's say) versus a repeater operator re-pairing, recalibrating, and retuning the entire repeater station. All the best, John, NF3Q MCH wrote: Does anyone have any experience with repeater operation vs RC operation (Remote Control)? I have an RC operator who is 'raising a stink' about a repeater that is 30 kHz away from one of his RC channels. BTW, he also wants to 'compromise' by offering to relocate the repeater off the 52-54 MHz segment so they will not impact his RC operations. Some compromise, huh? I think he has the impression that RC channels are 100 kHz wide (they are standard AM) because the 6M RC channels are spaced at 100 kHz (53.100, 53.200, 53.3500, 53.400, Etc). I've told him they cannot be more than 10 kHz wide, if that, and that the FC repeater would be only 16 kHz wide, and at 30 kHz away the two can coexist without interference. Oh, the repeater in question is at least 20 miles away from his flying site. Any input out there? Exactly how wide is his AM signal? Thanks, Joe M. Yahoo! Groups Links Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.38/2274 - Release Date: 07/31/09 05:58:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
I didn't want to play the coordinated vs uncoordinated card with him at this time, but that would dictate that he is primarily responsible for resolving any interference problems - including frequency selection on his part. There is no way there could be any interference to the coordinated operation (the repeater), and I believe interference to the uncoordinated operation (his RC receiver) would not exist, either. Keep in mind that RC operations can exist anywhere, so if you 'prohibit' operation even within 30 kHz of the RC channels, you are eliminating approximately 80% of the repeater channels as candidates for repeater operation. RC cannot be granted exclusive use of most of the 53-54 MHz band - especially after decades of use of the band by established repeaters. Joe M. DCFluX wrote: Tell him to buy another set of crystals for his remote. They are changeable for reasons like this. On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:58 PM, MCH m...@nb.net wrote: Does anyone have any experience with repeater operation vs RC operation (Remote Control)? I have an RC operator who is 'raising a stink' about a repeater that is 30 kHz away from one of his RC channels. BTW, he also wants to 'compromise' by offering to relocate the repeater off the 52-54 MHz segment so they will not impact his RC operations. Some compromise, huh? I think he has the impression that RC channels are 100 kHz wide (they are standard AM) because the 6M RC channels are spaced at 100 kHz (53.100, 53.200, 53.3500, 53.400, Etc). I've told him they cannot be more than 10 kHz wide, if that, and that the FC repeater would be only 16 kHz wide, and at 30 kHz away the two can coexist without interference. Oh, the repeater in question is at least 20 miles away from his flying site. Any input out there? Exactly how wide is his AM signal? Thanks, Joe M. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.38/2274 - Release Date: 07/31/09 05:58:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009, MCH wrote: BTW, he also wants to 'compromise' by offering to relocate the repeater off the 52-54 MHz segment so they will not impact his RC operations. Some compromise, huh? Call a radio shop and get a quote for what it will cost to change the frequency of the repeater and realign the duplexers. If you're in an area where coordination entities charge, mention the charge, and note the amount of time that it would take to be cleared for another channel. Bonus if you can get the coordinator to tell you now what the next available channel is and it's proximity to his frequency of interest. I think he has the impression that RC channels are 100 kHz wide (they are standard AM) because the 6M RC channels are spaced at 100 kHz (53.100, 53.200, 53.3500, 53.400, Etc). Beg, borrow, or steal a service monitor and find out. I've told him they cannot be more than 10 kHz wide, if that, and that the FC repeater would be only 16 kHz wide, and at 30 kHz away the two can coexist without interference. Standard broadcast AM is 10KHz, and is wider than most other forms of AM (except CB, where they will do anything they want with the signal). Oh, the repeater in question is at least 20 miles away from his flying site. Calculate the pathloss from the repeater to the flying site. Assuming a 100W transmitter, 1dB of cable losses and 5.16dBi (3dB) of antenna gain, at 20 miles there is -32.442dB of path loss. 100W = +50dBm, so there is an apparent signal of +17.558 dBm at the flying site. This corresponds to 56.99mW, or .05699W. You could probably push this number even lower by calculating the mW per centimeter. Even with a relatively non-selective front end, his radio should be able to be free of front-end overload from your repeater. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
I operated an RC Aircraft on 53.5 for quite a few years, and the receiver in the model was wide open. The transmitter used on/off keyed pulses, with the carrier on the air most of the time and short interruptions (200 milliseconds) of the carrier being the control method. A reverse pulse position modulation scheme. I can tell you that operating the model within 50 miles of a channel 2 TV station would paralyze the receiver in the model as soon as it was airborne above a few hundred feet. I usually had time to recover the control when the model descended under the big signal from the TV transmitter, but it was a real pain to try to use it that way. The receiver IF was at 455 kHz and was only 5 kHz or so wide, but the transmitter used no bandwidth reduction and was probably at least 100 kHz wide. The low power and ground level antenna of the transmitter probably prevented interfering with other operations on six meters, but the potential was there. If the complainant is trying to control a model, there are lots of options now that do not include a six meter frequency, with the new 2.5 gig systems very cheap. No more frequency interference between models, since they can all operate at the same time with the spread spectrum control system. 73 - Jim W5ZIT --- On Sat, 10/10/09, MCH m...@nb.net wrote: From: MCH m...@nb.net Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC To: Repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009, 11:58 PM Does anyone have any experience with repeater operation vs RC operation (Remote Control)? I have an RC operator who is 'raising a stink' about a repeater that is 30 kHz away from one of his RC channels. BTW, he also wants to 'compromise' by offering to relocate the repeater off the 52-54 MHz segment so they will not impact his RC operations. Some compromise, huh? I think he has the impression that RC channels are 100 kHz wide (they are standard AM) because the 6M RC channels are spaced at 100 kHz (53.100, 53.200, 53.3500, 53.400, Etc). I've told him they cannot be more than 10 kHz wide, if that, and that the FC repeater would be only 16 kHz wide, and at 30 kHz away the two can coexist without interference. Oh, the repeater in question is at least 20 miles away from his flying site. Any input out there? Exactly how wide is his AM signal? Thanks, Joe M.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
The Academy of Model Aeronautics went through a standards change a while ago. AM radios are no longer certified for exactly this reason. If he's using radios that don't meet modern performance standards he is invalidating both the airfield and his insurance. I'd like to know how he determined it is the repeater causing the interference under the conditions you describe. I'd also suggest he reread the regs on model control in the ham band. Oz MCH wrote: Does anyone have any experience with repeater operation vs RC operation (Remote Control)? I have an RC operator who is 'raising a stink' about a repeater that is 30 kHz away from one of his RC channels. BTW, he also wants to 'compromise' by offering to relocate the repeater off the 52-54 MHz segment so they will not impact his RC operations. Some compromise, huh? I think he has the impression that RC channels are 100 kHz wide (they are standard AM) because the 6M RC channels are spaced at 100 kHz (53.100, 53.200, 53.3500, 53.400, Etc). I've told him they cannot be more than 10 kHz wide, if that, and that the FC repeater would be only 16 kHz wide, and at 30 kHz away the two can coexist without interference. Oh, the repeater in question is at least 20 miles away from his flying site. Any input out there? Exactly how wide is his AM signal? Thanks, Joe M. -- mailto:o...@ozindfw.net Oz POB 93167 Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport)
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
Good info. BTW, the repeater isn't even on the air yet. Joe M. Oz-in-DFW wrote: The Academy of Model Aeronautics went through a standards change a while ago. AM radios are no longer certified for exactly this reason. If he's using radios that don't meet modern performance standards he is invalidating both the airfield and his insurance. I'd like to know how he determined it is the repeater causing the interference under the conditions you describe. I'd also suggest he reread the regs on model control in the ham band. Oz MCH wrote: Does anyone have any experience with repeater operation vs RC operation (Remote Control)? I have an RC operator who is 'raising a stink' about a repeater that is 30 kHz away from one of his RC channels. BTW, he also wants to 'compromise' by offering to relocate the repeater off the 52-54 MHz segment so they will not impact his RC operations. Some compromise, huh? I think he has the impression that RC channels are 100 kHz wide (they are standard AM) because the 6M RC channels are spaced at 100 kHz (53.100, 53.200, 53.3500, 53.400, Etc). I've told him they cannot be more than 10 kHz wide, if that, and that the FC repeater would be only 16 kHz wide, and at 30 kHz away the two can coexist without interference. Oh, the repeater in question is at least 20 miles away from his flying site. Any input out there? Exactly how wide is his AM signal? Thanks, Joe M. Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.38/2274 - Release Date: 07/31/09 05:58:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
Can you give me a lead as to what I'm looking for? Joe M. Oz-in-DFW wrote: I'd also suggest he reread the regs on model control in the ham band. Oz
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
Can you define very cheap? Joe M. Jim Brown wrote: If the complainant is trying to control a model, there are lots of options now that do not include a six meter frequency, with the new 2.5 gig systems very cheap. No more frequency interference between models, since they can all operate at the same time with the spread spectrum control system. 73 - Jim W5ZIT
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs. RC
Hardly anybody used 50 MHz ham in RC anymore since 2.4 GHz digital came about. Tell him to look at a new system. The cost of changing your system to another channel would exceed the cost of a new RC transmitter by three fold. Mike Mullarkey K7PFJ 6886 Sage Ave Firestone, Co 80504 303-954-9695 Home 303-954-9693 Home Office Fax 303-718-8052 Cellular _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of MCH Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 10:58 PM To: Repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC Does anyone have any experience with repeater operation vs RC operation (Remote Control)? I have an RC operator who is 'raising a stink' about a repeater that is 30 kHz away from one of his RC channels. BTW, he also wants to 'compromise' by offering to relocate the repeater off the 52-54 MHz segment so they will not impact his RC operations. Some compromise, huh? I think he has the impression that RC channels are 100 kHz wide (they are standard AM) because the 6M RC channels are spaced at 100 kHz (53.100, 53.200, 53.3500, 53.400, Etc). I've told him they cannot be more than 10 kHz wide, if that, and that the FC repeater would be only 16 kHz wide, and at 30 kHz away the two can coexist without interference. Oh, the repeater in question is at least 20 miles away from his flying site. Any input out there? Exactly how wide is his AM signal? Thanks, Joe M. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.9/2427 - Release Date: 10/10/09 06:39:00
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
A nice system you can pick up for under $300 and even under $200 if you want basic. Mike Mullarkey K7PFJ 6886 Sage Ave Firestone, Co 80504 303-954-9695 Home 303-954-9693 Home Office Fax 303-718-8052 Cellular _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of MCH Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:55 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC Can you define very cheap? Joe M. Jim Brown wrote: If the complainant is trying to control a model, there are lots of options now that do not include a six meter frequency, with the new 2.5 gig systems very cheap. No more frequency interference between models, since they can all operate at the same time with the spread spectrum control system. 73 - Jim W5ZIT No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.9/2427 - Release Date: 10/10/09 06:39:00
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
Tell him Tower Hobbies has the best deals on the web. Mike Mullarkey K7PFJ 6886 Sage Ave Firestone, Co 80504 303-954-9695 Home 303-954-9693 Home Office Fax 303-718-8052 Cellular _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of MCH Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:55 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC Can you define very cheap? Joe M. Jim Brown wrote: If the complainant is trying to control a model, there are lots of options now that do not include a six meter frequency, with the new 2.5 gig systems very cheap. No more frequency interference between models, since they can all operate at the same time with the spread spectrum control system. 73 - Jim W5ZIT No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.9/2427 - Release Date: 10/10/09 06:39:00
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
So he is looking at $1000, as he has 5 channels/aircraft. Does that include the TX and RX units? Joe M. On Sun 11/10/09 8:04 AM , k7...@skybeam.com sent: A nice system you can pick up for under $300 and even under $200 if you want basic. Mike Mullarkey K7PFJ 6886 Sage Ave Firestone, Co 80504 303-954-9695 Home 303-954-9693 Home Office Fax 303-718-8052 Cellular - FROM: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] ON BEHALF OF MCH SENT: Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:55 AM TO: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com SUBJECT: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC Can you define very cheap? Joe M. Jim Brown wrote: If the complainant is trying to control a model, there are lots of options now that do not include a six meter frequency, with the new 2.5 gig systems very cheap. No more frequency interference between models, since they can all operate at the same time with the spread spectrum control system. 73 - Jim W5ZIT No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.9/2427 - Release Date: 10/10/09 06:39:00 Links: -- [1] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMWZubnZ1BF 9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzEwNDE2OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjMxMDgEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDc 3RuZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTI1NTI2MjY0Ng--[3] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder;_ylc=X3oDMTJjYWlrdWpwBF9TAzk 3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzEwNDE2OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjMxMDgEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDaHBmBH N0aW1lAzEyNTUyNjI2NDY-[4] http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Repeaters vs RC
The amateur R/C operator has 2 problems...he is using outdated equipment and outdated frequencies according to the coordinating body for R/C. Of course...being an licensed Amateur Radio operator he has the right to do both. The beginning of the problem is with the outdated ARRL plan for 6 meter R/C. 53.0-53.48 Repeater inputs (except as noted; 19 channels) 53.0Remote base FM simplex 53.02 Simplex 53.1, 53.2, 53.3, 53.4 Radio remote control 53.5-53.98 Repeater outputs (except as noted; 19 channels) 53.5, 53.6, 53.7, 53.8 Radio remote control 53.52, 53.9 Simplex There are no Guard Bands for R/C Secondly, the R/C coordinating bodies recognize only the following frequencies: 00 50.800 01 50.820 02 50.840 03 50.860 04 50.880 05 50.900 06 50.920 07 50.940 08 50.960 09 50.980 and FM as the modulation method. As a result, coordinators should only allocate repeaters in what would be the guard bands as a last resort...that's why they are called coordinators. If the repeater's output is not spurious, the R/C operator is SOL but stomping on the little guy isn't what we do on purpose. I think back on my Heathkit Twoer that had a super-regenerative receiver. When FM came along, it was no longer useful. I had to upgrade. If there are no other frequencies available for the 6 meter repeater the R/C operator is just going to have to buck up and buy new gear (or crystals) or accept legal interference from a properly adjusted transmitter which is not on his frequency. LW --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, MCH m...@... wrote: Does anyone have any experience with repeater operation vs RC operation (Remote Control)? I have an RC operator who is 'raising a stink' about a repeater that is 30 kHz away from one of his RC channels. BTW, he also wants to 'compromise' by offering to relocate the repeater off the 52-54 MHz segment so they will not impact his RC operations. Some compromise, huh? I think he has the impression that RC channels are 100 kHz wide (they are standard AM) because the 6M RC channels are spaced at 100 kHz (53.100, 53.200, 53.3500, 53.400, Etc). I've told him they cannot be more than 10 kHz wide, if that, and that the FC repeater would be only 16 kHz wide, and at 30 kHz away the two can coexist without interference. Oh, the repeater in question is at least 20 miles away from his flying site.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Repeaters vs RC
Who is the coordinating body (bodies?) for R/C? Website? Where can I find the frequency list and mode requirements online? Thanks, Joe M. On Sun 11/10/09 9:09 AM , lenaw12 wa1...@amsat.org sent: The amateur R/C operator has 2 problems...he is using outdated equipment and outdated frequencies according to the coordinating body for R/C. Of course...being an licensed Amateur Radio operator he has the right to do both. The beginning of the problem is with the outdated ARRL plan for 6 meter R/C. 53.0-53.48Repeater inputs (except as noted; 19 channels) 53.0 Remote base FM simplex 53.02 Simplex 53.1, 53.2, 53.3, 53.4Radio remote control 53.5-53.98Repeater outputs (except as noted; 19 channels) 53.5, 53.6, 53.7, 53.8Radio remote control 53.52, 53.9 Simplex There are no Guard Bands for R/C Secondly, the R/C coordinating bodies recognize only the following frequencies: 0050.800 0150.820 0250.840 0350.860 0450.880 0550.900 0650.920 0750.940 0850.960 0950.980 and FM as the modulation method. As a result, coordinators should only allocate repeaters in what would be the guard bands as a last resort...that's why they are called coordinators. If the repeater's output is not spurious, the R/C operator is SOL but stomping on the little guy isn't what we do on purpose. I think back on my Heathkit Twoer that had a super-regenerative receiver. When FM came along, it was no longer useful. I had to upgrade. If there are no other frequencies available for the 6 meter repeater the R/C operator is just going to have to buck up and buy new gear (or crystals) or accept legal interference from a properly adjusted transmitter which is not on his frequency. LW --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, MCH wrote: Does anyone have any experience with repeater operation vs RC operation (Remote Control)? I have an RC operator who is 'raising a stink' about a repeater that is 30 kHz away from one of his RC channels. BTW, he also wants to 'compromise' by offering to relocate the repeater off the 52-54 MHz segment so they will not impact his RC operations. Some compromise, huh? I think he has the impression that RC channels are 100 kHz wide (they are standard AM) because the 6M RC channels are spaced at 100 kHz (53.100, 53.200, 53.3500, 53.400, Etc). I've told him they cannot be more than 10 kHz wide, if that, and that the FC repeater would be only 16 kHz wide, and at 30 kHz away the two can coexist without interference. Oh, the repeater in question is at least 20 miles away from his flying site. Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join(Yahoo! ID required) To change settings via email: repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
It's hard sometimes to work out differences between hams when neither ham is fully versed in the other's chosen activity. My first exposure to real RC was my brother back in the 70s. he had an FCC license just for RC. He saved up to be able to carry rocks in his pocket. Any time he went to a gathering of other RC guys, they would have to coordinate their colors. The little colored streamers hanging off their transmitters to let each other know what frequency they were on. So having multiple tx frequency crystals was and is common. Also, a LOT of rx units in the RC craft are synthesized and broad as a barn door. Only the TX is fairly tight and stable. This causes the interference problem but keeps the cost of swapping out frequencies down. So the cost of changing the operational freq is minimal. The RC guy could call up bomar and get 4 new frequencies for his TX for about the minimum order requirement. Only 1 at a time is needed of course but would give some latitude. Now, as for changing bands altogether. I certainly don't discredit the benefits of moving to a newer technology. However, I can see the RC guy give you a funny look and say: how about YOU move up above 2gHz and see how you like it! 6m RC is the coolest and can certainly play well in the shadow of a 6m repeater. 53.45/51.75 is my machine. Good luck on elmering each other, could be a fun learning experience. Chris Kb0wlf -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of m...@nb.net Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:09 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC So he is looking at $1000, as he has 5 channels/aircraft. Does that include the TX and RX units? Joe M. On Sun 11/10/09 8:04 AM , k7...@skybeam.com sent: A nice system you can pick up for under $300 and even under $200 if you want basic. Mike Mullarkey K7PFJ 6886 Sage Ave Firestone, Co 80504 303-954-9695 Home 303-954-9693 Home Office Fax 303-718-8052 Cellular - FROM: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] ON BEHALF OF MCH SENT: Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:55 AM TO: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com SUBJECT: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC Can you define very cheap? Joe M. Jim Brown wrote: If the complainant is trying to control a model, there are lots of options now that do not include a six meter frequency, with the new 2.5 gig systems very cheap. No more frequency interference between models, since they can all operate at the same time with the spread spectrum control system. 73 - Jim W5ZIT No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.9/2427 - Release Date: 10/10/09 06:39:00 Links: -- [1] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater- Builder/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMWZubnZ1BF 9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzEwNDE2OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjMxMDgEc2VjA2Z0cgRzb GsDc 3RuZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTI1NTI2MjY0Ng--[3] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater- Builder;_ylc=X3oDMTJjYWlrdWpwBF9TAzk 3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzEwNDE2OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjMxMDgEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDaH BmBH N0aW1lAzEyNTUyNjI2NDY-[4] http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.1/2407 - Release Date: 10/10/09 06:39:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
No, that price is for a complete replacement - TX, RX and servos. Unless his system uses mechanical reeds and germanium transistors all he will need is an RX per plane (~$65) and a new TX, so buy a $200 Kit and four RX's $500 tomorrow, $350 if you shop. m...@nb.net wrote: So he is looking at $1000, as he has 5 channels/aircraft. Does that include the TX and RX units? Joe M. On Sun 11/10/09 8:04 AM , k7...@skybeam.com mailto:k7pfj%40skybeam.com sent: A nice system you can pick up for under $300 and even under $200 if you want basic. Mike Mullarkey K7PFJ 6886 Sage Ave Firestone, Co 80504 303-954-9695 Home 303-954-9693 Home Office Fax 303-718-8052 Cellular - F -- mailto:o...@ozindfw.net Oz POB 93167 Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport)
[Repeater-Builder] Antenna question
Hi again, We are looking to replace that used antenna after getting 100 feet of new Andrews 1/2 donated to our club. Now I realize that the DB type antenna is the best, but we do not have 800 bucks to buy one. So, my question is should we just get a new G7-144 to replace the used G7 or is there another type of vertical that we could get that would be good. Being in North Indiana, our winters can be quite brutal, so we would probably want something durable. Any suggestions. 73 John, W3ML
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Antenna question
Buy a commercial one and cry once. Failing to have the funds you may want to build a colinear out of coax sections. It don't get much cheaper than that. http://www.repeater-builder.com/antenna/wa6svt.html tom [Original Message] From: W3ML w...@arrl.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: 10/11/2009 10:09:31 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Antenna question Hi again, We are looking to replace that used antenna after getting 100 feet of new Andrews 1/2 donated to our club. Now I realize that the DB type antenna is the best, but we do not have 800 bucks to buy one. So, my question is should we just get a new G7-144 to replace the used G7 or is there another type of vertical that we could get that would be good. Being in North Indiana, our winters can be quite brutal, so we would probably want something durable. Any suggestions. 73 John, W3ML Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Antenna question
W3ML wrote: Hi again, We are looking to replace that used antenna after getting 100 feet of new Andrews 1/2 donated to our club. Now I realize that the DB type antenna is the best, but we do not have 800 bucks to buy one. So, my question is should we just get a new G7-144 to replace the used G7 or is there another type of vertical that we could get that would be good. Being in North Indiana, our winters can be quite brutal, so we would probably want something durable. Given that last statement, I suspect that it won't take long for the price of multiple G7-144s (not to mention the costs/time of repeatedly going to the site and climbing the tower to replace them) to equal $800. I use Telewave, with their generous amateur radio discount, at all my sites and I've gone over a decade at some with no replacement required (even the antenna that went through a winter tower collapse is still going). Matthew Kaufman
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Antenna question
John, It sounds like you already have a G7? How old is it and how does it operate? I am trying to figure out how it stood up to your WX Elements. My two cents .In WNY on the highest hill in Allegany County I had and still have a G7. I had it up for about seven years at 160 until I got a used stationmaster and used the Repeater-Builder Article to bring it down in frequency to 147 MHz At that point we pulled the G7 put up the Stationmaster and also increased the cable from ½ to 7/8. The G7 was cleaned up and put back on the tower at about 60 for packet. The antenna was side mounted and we used a PVC T and piece of PVC Pipe to stabilize the top from whipping around. I would never top mount one. Also there are two weak points in my opinion, one being the radials. If I ever put up a new G7 I will replace the Radials with solid aluminum, as the hollow stock radials are fragile. The coaxial connector is also fragile. We had a tower crew, put a G7 on a commercial tower and they broke the connector right out of the base installing he pigtail. We sent the next one up with the pig tail installed and weatherproofed on the ground which I recommend. We have another one in G7 in Pa. on top of a radar tower and that has been in service for 12 plus years. My experience has been good as I have been where you are that you have to do with what you can afford. 73 JIM KA2AJH From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of W3ML Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 10:09 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Antenna question Hi again, We are looking to replace that used antenna after getting 100 feet of new Andrews 1/2 donated to our club. Now I realize that the DB type antenna is the best, but we do not have 800 bucks to buy one. So, my question is should we just get a new G7-144 to replace the used G7 or is there another type of vertical that we could get that would be good. Being in North Indiana, our winters can be quite brutal, so we would probably want something durable. Any suggestions. 73 John, W3ML
[Repeater-Builder] TDE-6090A antenna
On the RB website at http://www.repeater-builder.com/antenna/pdf/420-welded-yagi.pdf, Skipp graciously posted the measurements for a welded 420MHZ link antenna. I was thinking of taking a stab at building one. Questions: 1.Anyone have a detail drawing or photograph detailing how the driven element is fed? 2.Would additional director elements make a difference?
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Repeaters vs RC
Again, operating in the Ham Bands doesn't hold the R/C guy to these specs as he can or might have rolled his own. However the specs show good engineering practice which as an Amateur he should aim toward. He really has no recourse except that others try to work with him. Crystals are often available through ham swapa and online auctions... From the WattFlyer RC Electric Flight Forums: Hitec no longer sells 50/53 mhz equipment. FMA and Airtronics do. I never run across anyone any more who flies on 53 mhz since it is for the old wide band stuff (100 khz spacing). 50 mhz is for modern narrow band equipment. Like AM vs Sideband ... it becomes a gentleman's agreement, after reasonable evaluation of his receiver's bandwidth LW.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Antenna question
John, My suggestion is simple: Find the money to buy a decent antenna. Unless your time has no value, your gasoline is free, and you enjoy tower climbing, don't mess with cheap antennas. The great majority of available funds should go into the antenna, feedline, and outdoor mounting hardware- the things that are costly to buy, difficult to install, and the most likely to break during bad weather when it may be dangerous or impossible to get to the site to make repairs. Are you planning to support the Heliax with standoff cushion clamps made of stainless steel, or were you planning to just tie-wrap it to the tower legs? At $20 or so each, just the Heliax supports become a high-cost item when you install one every 3 or 4 feet. The indoor stuff like the repeater and duplexer can be upgraded over time, in the relative comfort and safety of the equipment shelter. Moreover, IMHO, it is not prudent to spend big bucks on the radio and duplexer up front, and then skimp on stuff that goes on the tower. The Hustler G7-144 is really too flimsy to have in repeater service where it is exposed to high winds and temperature extremes. I assembled a G7-144 antenna for my radio club's base station, and I took pains to use Penetrox on all aluminum joints and silicone sealant or Scotch-Kote on dissimilar-material joints. Despite these precautions, water leaked into the base and caused severe corrosion. It's practically junk now. If your repeater site is at one side of the desired coverage area, you might look into offset-pattern dipole antennas, Yagis, or corner reflectors. It makes no sense to put an omni antenna in service where all of the potential users are in one sector. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of W3ML Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:09 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Antenna question Hi again, We are looking to replace that used antenna after getting 100 feet of new Andrew 1/2 donated to our club. Now I realize that the DB type antenna is the best, but we do not have 800 bucks to buy one. So, my question is should we just get a new G7-144 to replace the used G7 or is there another type of vertical that we could get that would be good. Being in North Indiana, our winters can be quite brutal, so we would probably want something durable. Any suggestions. 73 John, W3ML
[Repeater-Builder] icom ic-rp1510 vs zetron 37 battle
task 2 is isolate ptt line from control logic by cutting trace next to j2 pin 6 can anyone give me a clue? as task one is remove r22 which is on j2 pin 6 and there is no trace next to this connector
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Antenna question
Thanks everyone for the advice. When we got the antenna it had been up for 10 years or more at 350 feet. The fiberglass on the coil section was practically destroyed and the joints were very loose. We cleaned all the corrosion off the metal, re-fiber-glassed the section to seal it and used no-ox. Then when it was re-assembled, I sprayed it with clear polyurethane and then screwed the sections together to try and tighten them up besides having the hose clamps on them. It still wobbles and I believe there is something wrong inside the fiber-glassed section and that is what is causing some or all the trouble with noise on incoming signals. It is really funny that when the transmitter transmits the controller messages it is perfectly clear and readable, no matter what power level we are at. But, let a user come in we have the repeater set at over 10 watts out of repeater and the noise is horrible. Replacing the antenna would be just another step in trying to figure all this out. Thanks to all for your suggestions. It looks like we may have to wait until the club can come up with the money to buy that DB antenna and just run it a low power. 73 John --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Jim Cicirello ka2...@... wrote: John, It sounds like you already have a G7? How old is it and how does it operate? I am trying to figure out how it stood up to your WX Elements. My two cents .In WNY on the highest hill in Allegany County I had and still have a G7. I had it up for about seven years at 160' until I got a used stationmaster and used the Repeater-Builder Article to bring it down in frequency to 147 MHz At that point we pulled the G7 put up the Stationmaster and also increased the cable from ½ to 7/8. The G7 was cleaned up and put back on the tower at about 60' for packet. The antenna was side mounted and we used a PVC T and piece of PVC Pipe to stabilize the top from whipping around. I would never top mount one. Also there are two weak points in my opinion, one being the radials. If I ever put up a new G7 I will replace the Radials with solid aluminum, as the hollow stock radials are fragile. The coaxial connector is also fragile. We had a tower crew, put a G7 on a commercial tower and they broke the connector right out of the base installing he pigtail. We sent the next one up with the pig tail installed and weatherproofed on the ground which I recommend. We have another one in G7 in Pa. on top of a radar tower and that has been in service for 12 plus years. My experience has been good as I have been where you are that you have to do with what you can afford. 73 JIM KA2AJH From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of W3ML Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 10:09 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Antenna question Hi again, We are looking to replace that used antenna after getting 100 feet of new Andrews 1/2 donated to our club. Now I realize that the DB type antenna is the best, but we do not have 800 bucks to buy one. So, my question is should we just get a new G7-144 to replace the used G7 or is there another type of vertical that we could get that would be good. Being in North Indiana, our winters can be quite brutal, so we would probably want something durable. Any suggestions. 73 John, W3ML
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Antenna question
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009, Thomas Oliver wrote: Buy a commercial one and cry once. What he said. Give until it hurts, but a DB-224 or a Super Stationmaster with upper brace are a necessity in environments where ice damage is a possible. Do it once, do it right. Or do it every week/month/year. Are you paying for a tower climber? Failing to have the funds you may want to build a colinear out of coax sections. It don't get much cheaper than that. http://www.repeater-builder.com/antenna/wa6svt.html Wait until that develops a crackle... -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Antenna question
No, this is VERY typical. The antenna is bad. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: W3ML w...@arrl.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 1:15 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Antenna question It still wobbles and I believe there is something wrong inside the fiber-glassed section and that is what is causing some or all the trouble with noise on incoming signals. It is really funny that when the transmitter transmits the controller messages it is perfectly clear and readable, no matter what power level we are at. But, let a user come in we have the repeater set at over 10 watts out of repeater and the noise is horrible.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Antenna question
Agreed. This is a classic sign of an antenna that's gone bad, and unless you've got a good isolator with sufficient load you're probably doing bad things to your transmitter... not to mention all the noise you're likely generating for other site users when you're transmitting. Needs to be replaced ASAP. Matthew Kaufman Chuck Kelsey wrote: No, this is VERY typical. The antenna is bad. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: W3ML w...@arrl.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 1:15 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Antenna question It still wobbles and I believe there is something wrong inside the fiber-glassed section and that is what is causing some or all the trouble with noise on incoming signals. It is really funny that when the transmitter transmits the controller messages it is perfectly clear and readable, no matter what power level we are at. But, let a user come in we have the repeater set at over 10 watts out of repeater and the noise is horrible. Yahoo! Groups Links
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Antenna question
That is the conclusion that I have come to as everybody has said that GE Mastr II should not be bad. Thanks and 73 John --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Kaufman matt...@... wrote: Agreed. This is a classic sign of an antenna that's gone bad, and unless you've got a good isolator with sufficient load you're probably doing bad things to your transmitter... not to mention all the noise you're likely generating for other site users when you're transmitting. Needs to be replaced ASAP. Matthew Kaufman Chuck Kelsey wrote: No, this is VERY typical. The antenna is bad. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: W3ML w...@... To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 1:15 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Antenna question It still wobbles and I believe there is something wrong inside the fiber-glassed section and that is what is causing some or all the trouble with noise on incoming signals. It is really funny that when the transmitter transmits the controller messages it is perfectly clear and readable, no matter what power level we are at. But, let a user come in we have the repeater set at over 10 watts out of repeater and the noise is horrible. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Antenna question
Kris Kirby wrote: On Sun, 11 Oct 2009, Thomas Oliver wrote: Buy a commercial one and cry once. What he said. Give until it hurts, but a DB-224 or a Super Stationmaster with upper brace are a necessity in environments where ice damage is a possible. Do it once, do it right. Or do it every week/month/year. Are you paying for a tower climber? Failing to have the funds you may want to build a colinear out of coax sections. It don't get much cheaper than that. http://www.repeater-builder.com/antenna/wa6svt.html http://www.repeater-builder.com/antenna/wa6svt.html Wait until that develops a crackle... -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst I thought the prefered poor-man's repeater antenna was a J-pole? Out of curiosity - are the 'square dipole' (or 'gapped loop' or whatever they want to call them) antennas usable for repeater use? Example: http://www.hamuniverse.com/loop.htm I've seen a 'hamsexy' Explorer around these parts (East Texas) with a stack of these on the roof at various frequencies. I personally dislike vertical antennas on cars (at best they generate wind noise, at worst they hit things and get bent/broken) these look like a decent option for truck/SUV use, assuming the other side is hpol too or you're willing to put up with the x-pol losses. JS
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Antenna question
At this point, you've got a the smoking gun. It's as good as DNA ;-) Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: W3ML w...@arrl.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 2:33 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Antenna question That is the conclusion that I have come to as everybody has said that GE Mastr II should not be bad. Thanks and 73 John --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Kaufman matt...@... wrote:
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Antenna question
Have a G7-144 on our ARMY MARS repeater here and has been up since 1998 with no antenna issues. We removed the clamps and drilled holes after tuning the antenna to our frequency and used sheet metal screws to secure the tubing. The antenna is mounted on the top of a building about 180 ft. David -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Lemmon Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 11:45 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Antenna question John, My suggestion is simple: Find the money to buy a decent antenna. Unless your time has no value, your gasoline is free, and you enjoy tower climbing, don't mess with cheap antennas. The great majority of available funds should go into the antenna, feedline, and outdoor mounting hardware- the things that are costly to buy, difficult to install, and the most likely to break during bad weather when it may be dangerous or impossible to get to the site to make repairs. Are you planning to support the Heliax with standoff cushion clamps made of stainless steel, or were you planning to just tie-wrap it to the tower legs? At $20 or so each, just the Heliax supports become a high-cost item when you install one every 3 or 4 feet. The indoor stuff like the repeater and duplexer can be upgraded over time, in the relative comfort and safety of the equipment shelter. Moreover, IMHO, it is not prudent to spend big bucks on the radio and duplexer up front, and then skimp on stuff that goes on the tower. The Hustler G7-144 is really too flimsy to have in repeater service where it is exposed to high winds and temperature extremes. I assembled a G7-144 antenna for my radio club's base station, and I took pains to use Penetrox on all aluminum joints and silicone sealant or Scotch-Kote on dissimilar-material joints. Despite these precautions, water leaked into the base and caused severe corrosion. It's practically junk now. If your repeater site is at one side of the desired coverage area, you might look into offset-pattern dipole antennas, Yagis, or corner reflectors. It makes no sense to put an omni antenna in service where all of the potential users are in one sector. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of W3ML Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:09 AM To: Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Antenna question Hi again, We are looking to replace that used antenna after getting 100 feet of new Andrew 1/2 donated to our club. Now I realize that the DB type antenna is the best, but we do not have 800 bucks to buy one. So, my question is should we just get a new G7-144 to replace the used G7 or is there another type of vertical that we could get that would be good. Being in North Indiana, our winters can be quite brutal, so we would probably want something durable. Any suggestions. 73 John, W3ML
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Repeaters vs RC
Your assertions are true as far as they go, but AMA insurance is then invalid, and most other insurers follow their lead. The AMA standards are the litmus test for insurabilty and represent 'good practice' If the guy is rolling his own, he would understand enough to avoid this problem entirely. Your arguments while possible are unlikely in the extreme. The guy is at best using old assumptions with new gear, and at worst using ancient gear that is inadequate to the task, which is irresponsible. This isn't AM vs Sideband. Both were adequate to the task and neither induced a potentially dangerous failure in the other. They were merely annoying to each other. Given what we've been told, evaluation of his receiver's bandwidth isn't an option; he's already asserted that it's woefully inadequate and resisted attempts at a rational evaluation. Oz lenaw12 wrote: Again, operating in the Ham Bands doesn't hold the R/C guy to these specs as he can or might have rolled his own. However the specs show good engineering practice which as an Amateur he should aim toward. He really has no recourse except that others try to work with him. Crystals are often available through ham swapa and online auctions... From the WattFlyer RC Electric Flight Forums: Hitec no longer sells 50/53 mhz equipment. FMA and Airtronics do. I never run across anyone any more who flies on 53 mhz since it is for the old wide band stuff (100 khz spacing). 50 mhz is for modern narrow band equipment. Like AM vs Sideband ... it becomes a gentleman's agreement, after evaluation of his receiver's LW. _ . -- mailto:o...@ozindfw.net Oz POB 93167 Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport)
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
Have you ever seen 53.400 or 53.500 MHz used? Also keep in mind that changing the frequency is not an option for him, as: 1. He is using 5 of the 9 6M RC frequencies available on 6M. 2. He believes that any repeater within 100 kHz is in his passband. 3. He doesn't want a repeater anywhere in the 52-54 MHz repeater segment due to interference concerns. He is basically laying claim to HALF of the 6M band. The 50.800 - 51.000 MHz segment was already suggested as an option. Joe M. Chris Curtis wrote: It's hard sometimes to work out differences between hams when neither ham is fully versed in the other's chosen activity. My first exposure to real RC was my brother back in the 70s. he had an FCC license just for RC. He saved up to be able to carry rocks in his pocket. Any time he went to a gathering of other RC guys, they would have to coordinate their colors. The little colored streamers hanging off their transmitters to let each other know what frequency they were on. So having multiple tx frequency crystals was and is common. Also, a LOT of rx units in the RC craft are synthesized and broad as a barn door. Only the TX is fairly tight and stable. This causes the interference problem but keeps the cost of swapping out frequencies down. So the cost of changing the operational freq is minimal. The RC guy could call up bomar and get 4 new frequencies for his TX for about the minimum order requirement. Only 1 at a time is needed of course but would give some latitude. Now, as for changing bands altogether. I certainly don't discredit the benefits of moving to a newer technology. However, I can see the RC guy give you a funny look and say: how about YOU move up above 2gHz and see how you like it! 6m RC is the coolest and can certainly play well in the shadow of a 6m repeater. 53.45/51.75 is my machine. Good luck on elmering each other, could be a fun learning experience. Chris Kb0wlf -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of m...@nb.net Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:09 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC So he is looking at $1000, as he has 5 channels/aircraft. Does that include the TX and RX units? Joe M. On Sun 11/10/09 8:04 AM , k7...@skybeam.com sent: A nice system you can pick up for under $300 and even under $200 if you want basic. Mike Mullarkey K7PFJ 6886 Sage Ave Firestone, Co 80504 303-954-9695 Home 303-954-9693 Home Office Fax 303-718-8052 Cellular - FROM: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] ON BEHALF OF MCH SENT: Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:55 AM TO: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com SUBJECT: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC Can you define very cheap? Joe M. Jim Brown wrote: If the complainant is trying to control a model, there are lots of options now that do not include a six meter frequency, with the new 2.5 gig systems very cheap. No more frequency interference between models, since they can all operate at the same time with the spread spectrum control system. 73 - Jim W5ZIT No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.9/2427 - Release Date: 10/10/09 06:39:00 Links: -- [1] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater- Builder/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMWZubnZ1BF 9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzEwNDE2OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjMxMDgEc2VjA2Z0cgRzb GsDc 3RuZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTI1NTI2MjY0Ng--[3] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater- Builder;_ylc=X3oDMTJjYWlrdWpwBF9TAzk 3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzEwNDE2OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjMxMDgEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDaH BmBH N0aW1lAzEyNTUyNjI2NDY-[4] http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.1/2407 - Release Date: 10/10/09 06:39:00 Yahoo! Groups Links
[Repeater-Builder] AP-50 Limiter
Hi What type of cap. filter IC is used in AP-50 audio processor? Regards LA4PMA
[Repeater-Builder] sg217 field tuning
Does anybody know how to field tune an sg217 omniodirectional antenna? I moved the radials down and got a better SWR but not sure if this is the correct way? Thanks Mike VE7SML
[Repeater-Builder] Help, please.
Greetings all, I joined this group because since earning my license I've wanted to set up a repeater. I think I'm getting close to that now. Let me tell you what I have and what I think I need. I ask that all of you smart, experienced repeater owners would help me along in my path. Please keep in mind, this is my first attempt at a repeater and really am not sure of all of the detail associated with this project. I guess I should start with my operating budget on this project. With a YL, a X-XYL, and a child, I'm not able to go out and buy much new stuff, commerically manufactured stuff, or specailized equipment. I'm am able, though, to read a schematic and am not afraid of a soldering iron/gun. I know that I can't get a 2m frequency so that is out. It would be the easiest since I have a 2m Motorola repeater in my garage that needs to be converted to the Ham band. I have a 440 one too. Again, it was state surplus and needs converted to the Ham bands. It is also Motorola. I only took the repeaters because the price was right. Free (hi hi). I am interested in 6m, but I'm not set on any frequency yet. Which is good. The only repeaters I can find for 6m in the local area are paper ones. At least, I haven't been able to key a repeater up that the ARRL repeater guide says exists with the tones that the guide says are being used. So, I am assuming they are paper repeaters. That said, I have a pair of Midland 70-0351c radios. They have already been converted to the Ham bands and I use them for what little 6m FM work I do. I bought them thinking that I'd like to build the repeater out of them. They seem to be plentiful and cheap. Two great qualities that I was looking for in a radio. I have a repeater controller (actually 3 of them). The one I'm most interested in using didn't come out of a Motorola built repeater. It is actually a generic controller that was given to me (well us as I have 2 other hams my age that are interested in the project, but I'm the most interested so I'm nugging the project along). The controller was bought originally our Elmer, Don Lemley W8DL, to build a 440 repeater out of Motorola mobile units. He had purchased everything and then decided that he didn't want to have interference in his 440 work so he didn't put the project together. I might want to add that the controller that didn't come with a repeater is a black box right now. I put it in a box in the shack and would have to find it again before I could even tell you the make or model of it. I know it is new and hasn't been used. Like I said earlier, there are actually 3 of us that have talked/worked on this idea over the last 4 years. I don't have access to the 440 radios or antenna that was purchased years ago by our Elmer. For an antenna, assuming that I will be on 6m, I was thinking that J-Poles would be fine. I don't expect much use on the repeater other than eventually I'd like to link it with the local clubs nets so that I could at least use 6m myself. 6m isn't real popular in the general area, but I have faith if I build it, they will come. Besides, this project is only being done for my learning and technology advancement in ham radio. So, assuming the radios are up to par, so to speak, I have 2 radios, 2 antennas, a controller, and the feedline. The only major things I am missing are a location, or locations, and/or a set of cans. Now, if I had 2 locations (1 for the transmitter and 1 for the receiver), I know that I wouldn't need the duplexers. I also know those locations should be at least 25 miles apart. I'm thinking that the receiver could go at my house and I'm working on being able to put a transmitter at work which is about 28 miles away. If that happens, the question becomes linking the 2 sites together. I know the traditional way is to use radios. Any suggestions on makes/models? Keep in mind that I like the cheap, readily available, and easy to get into the ham bands. Another thought would be to use Echolink. It would be harder to get that through work's firewall, but has anyone used Echolink that way? Pros/Cons? Another suggestion from a ham that knows quite a bit about networking infrastructure was to use Skype to set up a call between the receiver and the transmitter. Anyone thought of that or, even better, using it? If I go about using Echolink as the linking process, I have 1 rigblaster nomic. I will go about getting another one. I know that something like that would be needed to interface the radios with the workstations that will be running Echolink. If I can't separate the transmitter and receiver, anyone know how to go about getting a set of duplexers? I'm not above trying to build them, but I would be I'd need to be looking at designs that I can find the materials for. I would also need tons of help trying to get them tuned to work correctly for me. By reading over this message, is there any assumptions that I'm missing? Anything you think I need to
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
At 04:54 PM 10/11/2009, you wrote: Have you ever seen 53.400 or 53.500 MHz used? Not part of the usual coordinated frequency set Also keep in mind that changing the frequency is not an option for him, as: More accurately, it not what he *WANTS* to do. His options, however, may vary. 2. He believes that any repeater within 100 kHz is in his passband. He is flat wrong. PERIOD. Not subject to discussion. 3. He doesn't want a repeater anywhere in the 52-54 MHz repeater segment due to interference concerns. He is basically laying claim to HALF of the 6M band. This PARTICULARLY is where he is - to use the old expression - SH*T out of luck. He cannot lay claim to the frequencies - because as we all know - no one owns frequencies within the amateur spectrum. He is being high-handed and hasn't legal leg to stand on. Larry Wagoner - N5WLW VP - PRCARC PIC - MS SECT ARRL
[Repeater-Builder] WTB: UHF 438-470 Maxtrac or Radius Quantity 2
I am in the market for (2) UHF 438-470 Maxtrac or Radius mobiles. I would prefer to have 16 pin radios but if you have some 5 pins at a bargain price make me a price on those as well. I would need them to have the mobile mounting brackets if possible. No need for a speaker or microphone. I would like to have 2 watt radios but will entertain 10-25W radios as well. I can program them no problem just need known good radios to start with. Shipping zip code will be 28655. E-mail direct to iam4thapack (at) yahoo (dot) com Thanks.. Shane KI4M
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Help, please.
Eric, right off, I'll challenge the assumption that you need 25 miles separation. You'll have too many users who can her the output but not get in, and vice versa. A mile or two should be plenty. Linking via the internet can be done, but making a ham repeater reliant on two internet connections is controversial. Is the transmitter on that Midland capable of 100% duty cycle? Most mobiles are not. 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: Eric Mynes To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 10:43 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Help, please. Greetings all, I joined this group because since earning my license I've wanted to set up... .
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Help, please.
Eric - Have you been to the Repeater Builder website yet? There are lots of articles there to assist you in learning more. 25 miles separation for 6 meters is way too much, however, I'm not sure what the minimum recommended separation is for a split site. This is somewhat dependant on the radios being used and the front end of the receiver. You will not find too many people familiar with Midland radios - at least for repeater use. There are probably better choices. My favorite is the GE Mastr II, but a GE Exec II or GE MVP will work. They are easier than some of the Motorola's and have a good front end in them. Mobiles are not rated for 100% duty cycle like a Mastr II station is. You can easily burn up a mobile if not careful. Duplexer - good luck finding one. They are not easy to locate unless you purchase new (and you are not going to like the price). You can build a Heliax notch duplexer, but they are not very stable. Been there, done that. I'm running a 4-can duplexer on my 6-meter machine. Expect that you will spend way more money than you'd ever imagine on the project. Even homebrewing and scavenging won't be cheap. And it will be frustrating at times. You won't believe some of the problems that will crop up - but they will. Users? Don't expect too much there. Build and they will come is NOT typical for repeaters. You could have one or two users for years. Then there's test equipment. You'll need some or someone to help you that does have some. You cannot align a receiver without at least a signal generator. An analog VOM is best for alignment of the TX and RX. A good wattmeter and dummy load will also be needed. I don't want to sound negative - just pointing out some things to consider. Hopefully someone else will jump in here and add to my comments. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Eric Mynes To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 12:43 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Help, please. Greetings all, I joined this group because since earning my license I've wanted to set up a repeater. I think I'm getting close to that now. Let me tell you what I have and what I think I need. I ask that all of you smart, experienced repeater owners would help me along in my path. Please keep in mind, this is my first attempt at a repeater and really am not sure of all of the detail associated with this project. I guess I should start with my operating budget on this project. With a YL, a X-XYL, and a child, I'm not able to go out and buy much new stuff, commerically manufactured stuff, or specailized equipment. I'm am able, though, to read a schematic and am not afraid of a soldering iron/gun. I know that I can't get a 2m frequency so that is out. It would be the easiest since I have a 2m Motorola repeater in my garage that needs to be converted to the Ham band. I have a 440 one too. Again, it was state surplus and needs converted to the Ham bands. It is also Motorola. I only took the repeaters because the price was right. Free (hi hi). I am interested in 6m, but I'm not set on any frequency yet. Which is good. The only repeaters I can find for 6m in the local area are paper ones. At least, I haven't been able to key a repeater up that the ARRL repeater guide says exists with the tones that the guide says are being used. So, I am assuming they are paper repeaters. That said, I have a pair of Midland 70-0351c radios. They have already been converted to the Ham bands and I use them for what little 6m FM work I do. I bought them thinking that I'd like to build the repeater out of them. They seem to be plentiful and cheap. Two great qualities that I was looking for in a radio. I have a repeater controller (actually 3 of them). The one I'm most interested in using didn't come out of a Motorola built repeater. It is actually a generic controller that was given to me (well us as I have 2 other hams my age that are interested in the project, but I'm the most interested so I'm nugging the project along). The controller was bought originally our Elmer, Don Lemley W8DL, to build a 440 repeater out of Motorola mobile units. He had purchased everything and then decided that he didn't want to have interference in his 440 work so he didn't put the project together. I might want to add that the controller that didn't come with a repeater is a black box right now. I put it in a box in the shack and would have to find it again before I could even tell you the make or model of it. I know it is new and hasn't been used. Like I said earlier, there are actually 3 of us that have talked/worked on this idea over the last 4 years. I don't have access to the 440 radios or antenna that was purchased years ago by our Elmer. For an antenna, assuming that I will be on 6m, I was thinking that J-Poles would be fine. I don't expect much use on the repeater other than
[Repeater-Builder] FS: Dummy Load
Wattmeter ME-82/U (military version of M. C. Jones Elect Co model MM-625). 50 - 600 mhz,52-ohm, 120w (metered). Tested OK, unmodified, good condition. From an estate. Price: $60.00 plus shipping from northern Florida. No extra charge for packing and taking to shipper (UPS?USPO).Pictures available. N4GL (352) 637-1755
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
Standard broadcast AM is 10KHz, and is wider than most other forms of AM (except CB, where they will do anything they want with the signal). Standard AM *audio*, in the US, is low-pass filtered at about 10 kHz, so the RF bandwidth is about 20 kHz (double sideband). CB is substantially wider :-) Assuming a 100W transmitter, 1dB of cable losses and 5.16dBi (3dB) of antenna gain, at 20 miles there is -32.442dB of path loss. Methinks there's some disinformation there, better check your path-loss math. --- Jeff WN3A
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
So an AM signal (20 kHz) should only be slightly wider than a NBFM signal (16 kHz), and the receiver, properly designed, should work fine with an FM signal 30 kHz away that is 20 miles distant? (even line-of-sight?) Joe M. Jeff DePolo wrote: Standard broadcast AM is 10KHz, and is wider than most other forms of AM (except CB, where they will do anything they want with the signal). Standard AM *audio*, in the US, is low-pass filtered at about 10 kHz, so the RF bandwidth is about 20 kHz (double sideband).
Re: [Repeater-Builder] AP-50 Limiter
It is a custom chip, manufactured to our specifications. Kevin Custer la4pma wrote: Hi What type of cap. filter IC is used in AP-50 audio processor? Regards LA4PMA
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Antenna question
I Definitely agree, go with a commercial antenna built to perform for may years. Another good omni antenna is the ComTelco XL series antennas. I have several of these up and working very well in both VHF and UHF Ham and commercial. Matthew Kaufman ... wrote: Given that last statement, I suspect that it won't take long for the price of multiple G7-144s (not to mention the costs/time of repeatedly I use Telewave, with their generous amateur radio discount, at all my sites and I've gone over a decade at some with no replacement required (even the antenna that went through a winter tower collapse is still going). Matthew Kaufman
[Repeater-Builder] Re: WTB: UHF 438-470 Maxtrac or Radius Quantity 2
Maxtrac and Radius mobile radios only come in the 449.9- 470 mHz frequency range. So if you need 440 band you want a GM300 radio. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, iam4thapack iam4thap...@... wrote: I am in the market for (2) UHF 438-470 Maxtrac or Radius mobiles. I would prefer to have 16 pin radios but if you have some 5 pins at a bargain price make me a price on those as well. I would need them to have the mobile mounting brackets if possible. No need for a speaker or microphone. I would like to have 2 watt radios but will entertain 10-25W radios as well. I can program them no problem just need known good radios to start with. Shipping zip code will be 28655. E-mail direct to iam4thapack (at) yahoo (dot) com Thanks.. Shane KI4M
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
It might be worth while to build a couple pole L/C band pass filter for the 6m model band. Still About the only reasons I can see for using 6m: 1W transmitter power could be useful for drones and aircraft with 440 ATV back haul. Gain somewhat more protection from 72 MHz operators. see again the use of multiple crystal pairs. Last time I bought these for a VEX remote I got 4 pairs for $16 Same radio useful for ground and air models. People scratch their head trying to figure out what the color code flags mean when they cant see the channel plackard.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC
No, the number of channels in an RC system refers to controlled functions of the aircraft, not RF channels. For example, a plane with rudder, elevator, ailerons, throttle, and retractable landing gear would need 5 channels. The system still only occupies ONE RF channel. George, KA3HSW / WQGJ413 - Original Message - From: m...@nb.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:09 AM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Repeaters vs RC So he is looking at $1000, as he has 5 channels/aircraft. Does that include the TX and RX units? Joe M.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Antenna question
--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, W3ML w...@... wrote: Now I realize that the DB type antenna is the best, but we do not have 800 bucks to buy one. You can do FAR better than that price. Primus Electronics, Joliet, IL. 800.435.1636. I have no connection with them other than being a very satisfied customer. Laryn K8TVZ
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Antenna question
John, You may want to look into Morad Antennas. They make a 10db 2 Meter antenna that works very well. From www.morad.com VHF-146 10dB High performance 2 meter VHF 10dB gain @ 146 MHz #9114 $593.00 I have had a pair of them up on the Oregon Coast for 20 years with top support and they are still working great. They are 20+ feet in length just like a StationMaster. They were designed for the fishing boats on the Bering sea where ice and wind is almost an everyday event. If you have a good marine dealer in the area the price might be a little less that the advertised list price. Joe - WA7JAW --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, W3ML w...@... wrote: That is the conclusion that I have come to as everybody has said that GE Mastr II should not be bad. Thanks and 73 John --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Kaufman matthew@ wrote: Agreed. This is a classic sign of an antenna that's gone bad, and unless you've got a good isolator with sufficient load you're probably doing bad things to your transmitter... not to mention all the noise you're likely generating for other site users when you're transmitting. Needs to be replaced ASAP. Matthew Kaufman Chuck Kelsey wrote: No, this is VERY typical. The antenna is bad. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: W3ML w3ml@ To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 1:15 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Antenna question It still wobbles and I believe there is something wrong inside the fiber-glassed section and that is what is causing some or all the trouble with noise on incoming signals. It is really funny that when the transmitter transmits the controller messages it is perfectly clear and readable, no matter what power level we are at. But, let a user come in we have the repeater set at over 10 watts out of repeater and the noise is horrible. Yahoo! Groups Links
