Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Making room for the new guy - repeater coordination - Hope this is not too o
On Sep 20, 2007, at 11:41 AM, MCH wrote: > You know - it would be SO much easier to transition if the REPEATERS > could serve dual-use. That way, existing analog repeaters could be > replaced with D-STAR and both modes could be used while the users > transition to digital. 110% agreed there. > This is a huge advantage of P25 - those repeaters CAN be dual mode. > D-STAR is digital only. But it's still the user radio that implements busy-lockout in P25. In our local mixed-mode system, analog users (who can't be bothered to put in a CTCSS tone on receive) regularly pop up in-between digital transmissions musing, "What's that horrible noise getting into the repeater?!" And if the digital users have analog/digital busy-channel lockout turned on in their rigs, they see the receive light is on, and they can't PTT until the confused ham has given up. LOL! I usually monitor quietly with another analog rig when we're playing with P25 so I can cross-over and explain that what they're hearing isn't "interference". -- Nate Duehr, WY0X [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Making room for the new guy - repeater coordination - Hope this is not too o
On Sep 20, 2007, at 12:18 PM, Dan Blasberg wrote: >P25 can monitor both analog and digital in mixed mode operation but > only transmit in one or the other (so you need to channels on a P25 > radio as well for transmit purposes. This is completely dependent on the user-radio's implementation. Some rigs may not require two "channels" be used, but may have a default mode (digital or analog) and you have to press a button to switch, etc. But PS folks typically like their "channels" -- so that's mostly the implementation you find out there today... -- Nate Duehr, WY0X [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Making room for the new guy - repeater coordination - Hope this is not too o
- Original Message - From: "Glenn Shaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 9:06 AM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Making room for the new guy - repeater coordination - Hope this is not too o > What are you hearing that is going to come out to define repeaters, remote > bases, and auxiliary stations, and when will this be out? > > Thanks > Glenn N1GBY Sorry, I thought I already posted this here... I sent a copy of TASMA's 2-meter D-Star coordination proposal to the Regulatory Information Division of the ARRL for comment, and this is the reply I received from them: "George, Thank you for forwarding this information. You may want to relay to the group that it appears their action is at variance with on-going correspondence between the ARRL and the FCC and they may want to wait with implementing this until further information is made available on this subject. This should be coming shortly. 73, Chuck Skolaut, KØBOG Field & Regulatory Correspondent ARRL - The national association for Amateur Radio 860 594 0239 [EMAIL PROTECTED]" 73, George, KA3HSW
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Making room for the new guy - repeater coordination - Hope this is not too o
What are you hearing that is going to come out to define repeaters, remote bases, and auxiliary stations, and when will this be out? Thanks Glenn N1GBY Hi The fact that a D-Star repeater is made to transmit by another station via the internet does not make it an auxiliary station. This is precisely what TASMA had wrong from the get-go. An auxiliary station TRANSMITS, over RF, point-to-point communications WITHIN a system of cooperating amateur stations, not to the end-user. A 2- meter D-Star repeater NEVER transmits POINT-TO-POINT communications on its output. I have challenged 2 people from TASMA to cite a single example to the contrary: neither has responded. Consider a couple of conventional linked analog 2-meter repeaters: the W1AAA repeater in Anytown is linked to the W1ZZZ repeater in Nextownover on 440. Which are the auxiliary stations? Not the repeaters - they are the cooperating amateur stations. The LINK TRANSCEIVERS are the auxiliary stations, because they are the ones transmitting the point-to-point communications. In the D-Star network, the 440 link transceivers have been replaced by a LAN/WAN/the internet, or a microwave link. Because the link does not take place over 2 meters, there is NO way you can claim that the 2-meter D-Star repeater is an auxiliary station. As in the scenario above, it is merely one of the "cooperating amateur stations." Before the NFCC made its announcement this week, I already had confirmation from the ARRL that they and the FCC are about to put an end to this debate. George, KA3HSW
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Making room for the new guy - repeater coordination - Hope this is not too o
--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Steve S. Bosshard (NU5D)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > One down side would be the internet gateway. I can direct a call to the > DSTAR repeater in Malibu, CA from here in Temple, Texas and have no > idea whether the channel in Malibu had analog traffic or not. Local > folks could be observant, but folks thru the gateway would not know. > This may be how folks contrive the DSTAR repeater to be an AUX Station > because it can be caused to transmit by another station via the internet > in another area. This may be a secondary function, though, because > primarily the repeater works as a repeater, and I would venture that 2/3 > of the DSTAR systems in the US are not connected to the internet. > > 73, Steve NU5D > The fact that a D-Star repeater is made to transmit by another station via the internet does not make it an auxiliary station. This is precisely what TASMA had wrong from the get-go. An auxiliary station TRANSMITS, over RF, point-to-point communications WITHIN a system of cooperating amateur stations, not to the end-user. A 2- meter D-Star repeater NEVER transmits POINT-TO-POINT communications on its output. I have challenged 2 people from TASMA to cite a single example to the contrary: neither has responded. Consider a couple of conventional linked analog 2-meter repeaters: the W1AAA repeater in Anytown is linked to the W1ZZZ repeater in Nextownover on 440. Which are the auxiliary stations? Not the repeaters - they are the cooperating amateur stations. The LINK TRANSCEIVERS are the auxiliary stations, because they are the ones transmitting the point-to-point communications. In the D-Star network, the 440 link transceivers have been replaced by a LAN/WAN/the internet, or a microwave link. Because the link does not take place over 2 meters, there is NO way you can claim that the 2-meter D-Star repeater is an auxiliary station. As in the scenario above, it is merely one of the "cooperating amateur stations." Before the NFCC made its announcement this week, I already had confirmation from the ARRL that they and the FCC are about to put an end to this debate. George, KA3HSW
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Making room for the new guy - repeater coordination - Hope this is not too o
No, D-Star does not automatically switch between analog and digital. You have to have one channel set up for analog and then if you want to do digital on the same frequency, you have to set up a digital channel. P25 can monitor both analog and digital in mixed mode operation but only transmit in one or the other (so you need to channels on a P25 radio as well for transmit purposes. Dan KA8YPY On Sep 20, 2007, at 10:48 AM, wb6ymh wrote: > >> Second - Dear Coordinator - Old Joe has an unused repeater pair on the >> North side of town. We respectfully request you re-consider >> coordination because we the undersigned (hand full of folks) have >> monitored this frequency for the last XX days and find little or no >> activity - well beyond the alloted 90 days allowed for repair / >> replacement, and respectfully request Old Joe's coordination be waived >> to the extent we may construct and operate a digital repeater using >> part >> of the spectrum alloted to Joe while at the same time offering to >> share >> this spectrum with Joe. (Sharing a frequency is not interference). > > Technical question: Does a DSTAR radio automatically switch between > analog and digital? i.e. can the DSTAR user hear the analog activity > when his radio is in DStar mode so he can "share" the frequency? > > Sharing between digital and analog was tried back in the packet > days... to say the least it didn't work. > > 73's Skip WB6YMH > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Making room for the new guy - repeater coordination - Hope this is not too o
You know - it would be SO much easier to transition if the REPEATERS could serve dual-use. That way, existing analog repeaters could be replaced with D-STAR and both modes could be used while the users transition to digital. This is a huge advantage of P25 - those repeaters CAN be dual mode. D-STAR is digital only. Joe M. wb6ymh wrote: > > Technical question: Does a DSTAR radio automatically switch between > analog and digital? i.e. can the DSTAR user hear the analog activity > when his radio is in DStar mode so he can "share" the frequency?
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Making room for the new guy - repeater coordination - Hope this is not too o
wb6ymh wrote: > Technical question: Does a DSTAR radio automatically switch between > analog and digital? i.e. can the DSTAR user hear the analog activity > when his radio is in DStar mode so he can "share" the frequency? > > Sharing between digital and analog was tried back in the packet > days... to say the least it didn't work. > > 73's Skip WB6YMH > > > > Hi Skip, Dang service call broke into coffee time, but I did get to visit the local hams for a bit. As far as I know the DSTAR user radios can be set to busy channel lock out, so they will not transmit when there is anything on the channel. They also have an S Meter that will show activity, and can be set to monitor for analog or digital. One down side would be the internet gateway. I can direct a call to the DSTAR repeater in Malibu, CA from here in Temple, Texas and have no idea whether the channel in Malibu had analog traffic or not. Local folks could be observant, but folks thru the gateway would not know. This may be how folks contrive the DSTAR repeater to be an AUX Station because it can be caused to transmit by another station via the internet in another area. This may be a secondary function, though, because primarily the repeater works as a repeater, and I would venture that 2/3 of the DSTAR systems in the US are not connected to the internet. 73, Steve NU5D
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Making room for the new guy - repeater coordination - Hope this is not too o
> Second - Dear Coordinator - Old Joe has an unused repeater pair on the > North side of town. We respectfully request you re-consider > coordination because we the undersigned (hand full of folks) have > monitored this frequency for the last XX days and find little or no > activity - well beyond the alloted 90 days allowed for repair / > replacement, and respectfully request Old Joe's coordination be waived > to the extent we may construct and operate a digital repeater using part > of the spectrum alloted to Joe while at the same time offering to share > this spectrum with Joe. (Sharing a frequency is not interference). Technical question: Does a DSTAR radio automatically switch between analog and digital? i.e. can the DSTAR user hear the analog activity when his radio is in DStar mode so he can "share" the frequency? Sharing between digital and analog was tried back in the packet days... to say the least it didn't work. 73's Skip WB6YMH
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Making room for the new guy - repeater coordination - Hope this is not too o
Frequency coordination boards have no power to get Joe to take his repeater off the air because he doesn't use it enough. In reality when the local frequency coordination group won't/can't do anything most (but not quite all) groups will eventually pick the most likely pair and set up shop on it without coordination. If Joe's group is truly dead they'll be all set. More likely Joe's group will come back to life and make noise. If it's a lot of strong noise the new group will probably pick a new pair and try again. Three points: 1. USE IT OR LOSE IT! 2. We need ACTIVE frequency coordination boards even when "all pairs are gone". A frequency coordination council that's nothing more than a bit bucket does no one any good. 3. A dedicated group will aways find a frequency, one way or another. This isn't the place for venting about frequency coordination, but I feel a tad bit better. 73's Skip WB6YMH --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Steve S. Bosshard (NU5D)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > "Illegal is Illegal" period. > > Look at what there is to gain by promoting digital repeater technologies > - more spectrum - less interference - better range and better quality > communications - no pots to adjust on your repeater - 1s and 0s > > We have it within reach to re-farm present spectrum for a 2 for 1 or > better yield in recovering spectrum by fostering digital technologies, > be it P25 or DSTAR, or other means not to market at present. > > First - voluntary negotiated agreements - ie. Hey Joe, that repeater > you have, you know, the one on the North side of town with the bad > antenna - our group would like to share the channel and put up a new > digital repeater and would like to partner with you - what do you think ? > > Second - Dear Coordinator - Old Joe has an unused repeater pair on the > North side of town. We respectfully request you re-consider > coordination because we the undersigned (hand full of folks) have > monitored this frequency for the last XX days and find little or no > activity - well beyond the alloted 90 days allowed for repair / > replacement, and respectfully request Old Joe's coordination be waived > to the extent we may construct and operate a digital repeater using part > of the spectrum alloted to Joe while at the same time offering to share > this spectrum with Joe. (Sharing a frequency is not interference). > > Third - Dear Coordinator - We have tried unsuccessfully to negotiate > with Old Joe to share his un-used / underutilized repeater pair, and > while we concede the station to be constructed and operational, we also > note a lack of activity as documented herein and propose our group would > better serve the purpose of amateur radio by being allowed to share this > coordination. > > Maybe the wording is not so great, but the idea is to work within the > existing rules to promote more spectrally efficient frequency use to the > end that there is more spectrum for everyone. I do not believe DSTAR > repeaters to be anything other than repeaters, and unless there is a > proper waiver of the FCC rules, should not be placed in any part of the > band where repeaters are not permitted. > > Again, thanks to the volunteer coordinators who do their best to make > things fit for the betterment of our hobby and service, Steve NU5D > moderator dstar_digital yahoo group. > > > MCH wrote: > > I know, but in many areas there are a lot of unused frequencies. > > > > Still, I would never seriously tell someone to operate there. I would > > also not recommend operating repeaters in the parts of the band where > > repeaters are prohibited. Others don't see this prohibition as a > > deterrent, however. The reason? "The repeater bands are full" and there > > is a desire to put more repeaters on the air. > > > > >
