Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Nate, Most Hams know their own rig very well. They might not know what all functions such as DCS is for because few use DCS. I have little worry in a time of need a ham will be able to operate his/her rig. We were talking about EOCs and other rigs where users were not familiar with them. Training will help some, but is often forgotten quickly. I have trouble when I have to do something on some of my rigs that I very seldom do more on than just tune and talk. I re-learn the process and get there. Rigs are so different in their operations. The real problem will not be Hams knowing how to set up a rig. Pre-programming can solve this in most cases. The real problem and needed training is what they do with the rigs once they are set up. This is where the training is required. 73, ron, n9ee/r >From: Nate Duehr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: 2008/03/27 Thu PM 07:28:21 CDT >To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the >wheel... > >Ron Wright wrote: >> Nate, >> >> Wish it were that easy. In about all my rigs to set the freq is easy, turn >> the tuning knob. Most have standard offset and hope the repeater you are >> going to does also. As for CTCSS most all my rigs require multiple setting >> and menus. One to set the freq, one to set rx or tx, etc. > >The point is that you just demonstrated that you know some things there >that a LOT of volunteer hams don't! You know about rigs with and >without standard offsets. You know why there's that "RPT" button on >rigs. You know you need a CTCSS tone, and what it does. > >You learned that somewhere. Someone had to TRAIN you, or you had to >TRAIN yourself. For those volunteer who REFUSE to self-train, they must >be SHOWN and TESTED. > >How many hams even know that some modern rigs (finally) HAVE different >CTCSS tones for TX/RX? (Which is actually fairly rare in Amateur rigs, >but common in all commercial rigs for over a decade now.) You do. > >But for you to run around programming their radios for them, is >ultimately a "job that never ends" -- you need to TRAIN them about what >you know about HOW the rigs work, not how to spin the pre-programmed >dial some "radio guru" set up for them. > >In the end, they're USELESS operators if you do that work and effort for >them. > >> Then comes the 2 years later when it must be done again. I don't care if it >> is 3 months later many will not be able to set some of the items in a rig >> they have been trained on. > >Well, if you go back to my Aviation analogy, there are recurrency >requirements in Aviation also for that reason. > >*REAL* Emergency communications and Aviation share a common theme... >lives are on the line. Aviation's had 100 years to come up with the >bare minimum rules/regulations to keep people from dying as much as >reasonably possible. It's not a bad model to emulate. > >Written test. Practical test. Logs that show you're current and safe >before you can carry passengers. Specific time and safety-related >reviews with an instructor required every so often. > >Of course, I'll certainly point out that hams RARELY are doing real >*Emergency* communications. > >In all but the utterly devastating largest scale events, we're passing >traffic about how many donuts are left at the shelter. > >Nothing life-threatening, and most of the traffic won't be delayed too >badly by poor radio discipline, not knowing how to run the radio, etc. > >(In other words, we're the communications "dumping ground" for crap the >real emergency responders don't want to do. And we get all excited and >think we're adding great value when we do it, so ... that's fine... but >it's why I don't bother to volunteer. I figure my skillset will be more >badly needed to drive my dumb butt up to a site and get repeaters back >on the air... or deploy portables for others to use... so I limit my >EmComm activity to that.) > >> Pre-program what you need then if there are 5 freq/tone/offsets in a system >> just quickly turn the knob. > >Yes, but ham rigs have memories. Use them, but also leave the VFO knob >available. > >Don't switch to radios that have no flexibility, or you take away things >a GOOD operator can use. > >> If the approach of no training then no operation then lots of people will be >> left without EmComm and this is not an option. > >Lots of people will be left without *BAD* EmComm, which isn't a loss for >them OR outsider's view of the hobby. > >> Really sounds as if so many are planning a weekend bike run and not the real >> thing. I saw the need for someone not trained to do a commo job immediately >> in the military and the "no training no do" was not an option. > >Thus why military systems are set up to be operated by any monkey. > >That's not the focus of Amateur Radio -- we're a pool of TRAINED >operators, according to Part 97. Not PTT-monkeys. > >Trained operators can fill
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Nate, Wish it were that easy. In about all my rigs to set the freq is easy, turn the tuning knob. Most have standard offset and hope the repeater you are going to does also. As for CTCSS most all my rigs require multiple setting and menus. One to set the freq, one to set rx or tx, etc. Then comes the 2 years later when it must be done again. I don't care if it is 3 months later many will not be able to set some of the items in a rig they have been trained on. Pre-program what you need then if there are 5 freq/tone/offsets in a system just quickly turn the knob. If the approach of no training then no operation then lots of people will be left without EmComm and this is not an option. Really sounds as if so many are planning a weekend bike run and not the real thing. I saw the need for someone not trained to do a commo job immediately in the military and the "no training no do" was not an option. I do encourage all to train as much as they can. It is valuable, but often helps less then some think. 73, ron, n9ee/r >With a radio it takes 5 minutes... someone stands there and says, "Tune >to X, standard repeater offset, and set a X Hz CTCSS tone."... and waits >to see if the person can do it. Do a few more. > Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
RE: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
At 3/26/2008 16:54, you wrote: >Pardon me if this is blunt, but are these meetings really efficient for >training? Or, have they developed a reputation as a monthly "nerds night >out" for guys who like wearing pocketed orange vests in public, and a >waste of time for everyone else? > >If people can't or won't make room in their lives for more meetings, then >find ways to train them online, during nets and wherever you can find >them. The business and educational worlds do much now with >teleconferencing and distance learning. > >If someone checks into your net often enough to stay fresh on procedures, >and demonstrates the ability to handle formal traffic, how much >face-to-face training is really needed? One of the things we do at our training meetings for the marathon is get everyone's radio programmed with the net frequencies (only HTs are used, as no one is allowed to park on the course). Kind of hard to do that over the radio or internet. One of the channels is an odd-split portable 2 meter repeater. It's a bit of a challenge to get that one but we manage to get almost everyone's radio programmed (we missed one last year, & had an unknown problem with one radio this year that I think was simply a defective radio). Bob NO6B
Re: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
At 3/26/2008 16:03, you wrote: >Kris, > >Sure ban them. You got hundreds of trees and telephone poles down, routes >blocked for emergency vehicles, no power or water and you need comm to >coordinate things and one is going to say have you attended a class??? I >don't think so. Maybe EmComm is different, but for public service events I'd rather have a thin staff than an adequate number of clueless hams making us look bad. Bob NO6B
RE: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Pardon me if this is blunt, but are these meetings really efficient for training? Or, have they developed a reputation as a monthly "nerds night out" for guys who like wearing pocketed orange vests in public, and a waste of time for everyone else? If people can't or won't make room in their lives for more meetings, then find ways to train them online, during nets and wherever you can find them. The business and educational worlds do much now with teleconferencing and distance learning. If someone checks into your net often enough to stay fresh on procedures, and demonstrates the ability to handle formal traffic, how much face-to-face training is really needed? 73, Paul, AE4KR _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Wright Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 5:03 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... Kris, Sure ban them. You got hundreds of trees and telephone poles down, routes blocked for emergency vehicles, no power or water and you need comm to coordinate things and one is going to say have you attended a class??? I don't think so. Some don't take the time to attend meetings which is so often a few telling stories, but when really needed they show up. I enjoy how people who you've never met will pitch in during a disaster. 73, ron, n9ee/r >From: Kris Kirby <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:kris%40catonic.us> us> >Date: 2008/03/26 Wed PM 03:50:47 CDT >To: Repeater-Builder@ <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... > >On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Ron Wright wrote: >> >From my 15+ years experience with emergency comm here 90% of those >> >who show up to help NEVER come to meetings. How you going to put >> >them in a training class? You are not. > >Simple: Ban them from participating in any events unless they are >willing at attend that one class. > >I'm not well versed in Icom radios. Motorola, Yaesu, and Alinco mostly. >I've used one Kenwood radio of recent vintage. I am not inclined toward >MARS, RACES, etc. However, were I, I would attend such as clas, just as >I have attended storm spotter training in the past -- even though my >usual response to a storm is just to get as low as possible. :) > >-- >Kris Kirby, KE4AHR <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:kris%40catonic.us> us> >But remember, with no superpowers comes no responsibility. > --rly > Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
Re: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Kris, Sure ban them. You got hundreds of trees and telephone poles down, routes blocked for emergency vehicles, no power or water and you need comm to coordinate things and one is going to say have you attended a class??? I don't think so. Some don't take the time to attend meetings which is so often a few telling stories, but when really needed they show up. I enjoy how people who you've never met will pitch in during a disaster. 73, ron, n9ee/r >From: Kris Kirby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: 2008/03/26 Wed PM 03:50:47 CDT >To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the >wheel... > >On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Ron Wright wrote: >> >From my 15+ years experience with emergency comm here 90% of those >> >who show up to help NEVER come to meetings. How you going to put >> >them in a training class? You are not. > >Simple: Ban them from participating in any events unless they are >willing at attend that one class. > >I'm not well versed in Icom radios. Motorola, Yaesu, and Alinco mostly. >I've used one Kenwood radio of recent vintage. I am not inclined toward >MARS, RACES, etc. However, were I, I would attend such as clas, just as >I have attended storm spotter training in the past -- even though my >usual response to a storm is just to get as low as possible. :) > >-- >Kris Kirby, KE4AHR <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >But remember, with no superpowers comes no responsibility. > --rly > > Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Ron Wright wrote: > >From my 15+ years experience with emergency comm here 90% of those > >who show up to help NEVER come to meetings. How you going to put > >them in a training class? You are not. Simple: Ban them from participating in any events unless they are willing at attend that one class. I'm not well versed in Icom radios. Motorola, Yaesu, and Alinco mostly. I've used one Kenwood radio of recent vintage. I am not inclined toward MARS, RACES, etc. However, were I, I would attend such as clas, just as I have attended storm spotter training in the past -- even though my usual response to a storm is just to get as low as possible. :) -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> But remember, with no superpowers comes no responsibility. --rly
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Yep. I've been a ham for a fairly long time (mid 70's). I usually have to dig out the manual to program my own rigs every time I want to change something. I can't imagine trying to remember how to program someone else's radio. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: "Ron Wright" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:51 AM Subject: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... > Having the same rig for all would be nice. In an EOC this is possible. > > However, the value of Ham Radio to a community is the Hams have a supply > of radios they bought, maintain and learn to use. Can one see the vast > cost if say 50 Hams/people had to be supplied equipment at gov expense. > Would not happen. > > And since we all have wants, prefer different manufacturer's rigs for many > reasons one type or model rig is not going to happen. And of course this > leads to the Hams coming out of the wood work in a disaster they have > little knowledge with the equipment in place except for their own. > > 73, ron, n9ee/r > > > >>From: Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Date: 2008/03/26 Wed PM 12:19:37 CDT >>To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com >>Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the >>wheel... > >> >>Sorry to add my 3 cents worth. But the best way to deal with this problem >>or any emergency problem is routine monthly training. The radios your key >>people use during an emergency should be in the same category as their own >>radios. We use icom 2820's through our whole ARES/RACES system with no >>problem. But there again, it all comes down to training and practice and >>teamwork. sorry for butting in.- Original Message - From: >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comSent: Wednesday, >>March 26, 2008 6:57 AM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, >>trying not to re-invent the wheel... >> >>At 3/26/2008 06:29, you wrote: >> >>>Radios at emergency opperating positions that will be used by Ham >>>people in >>>an emergency need to be commercial radios that are idiot proof. >> >>Sounds like a good idea on the surface, but the lack of VFO mode IMO >>severely limits its usefulness in an emergency. What if only a handful >>of >>repeaters are left on the air & none of them are programmed into the >>radios? A user-programmable radio like the Kenwood TK-805D is a >>possibility, but to be effective the user must know how to program it. >>As >>I'm sitting here at the keyboard I've already forgotten how to program >>mine. >> >>>We tried the Ham radio in emergency com centers for years and they >>>worked >>>great but when the E.C. went to the EOC during an activation and could >>>not >>>figure out how to set the pl because someone fooled with the buttons >>>between activations the radio was useless and these were very simple >>>single >>>band radios. >> >>IMO anyone who can't figure out how to use their radio shouldn't be >>volunteering. That is supposedly what distinguishes hams from the >>general >>population: our operating expertise. >> >>Bob NO6B >> >> > > > Ron Wright, N9EE > 727-376-6575 > MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS > Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL > No tone, all are welcome. > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
Having the same rig for all would be nice. In an EOC this is possible. However, the value of Ham Radio to a community is the Hams have a supply of radios they bought, maintain and learn to use. Can one see the vast cost if say 50 Hams/people had to be supplied equipment at gov expense. Would not happen. And since we all have wants, prefer different manufacturer's rigs for many reasons one type or model rig is not going to happen. And of course this leads to the Hams coming out of the wood work in a disaster they have little knowledge with the equipment in place except for their own. 73, ron, n9ee/r >From: Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: 2008/03/26 Wed PM 12:19:37 CDT >To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the >wheel... > >Sorry to add my 3 cents worth. But the best way to deal with this problem or >any emergency problem is routine monthly training. The radios your key people >use during an emergency should be in the same category as their own radios. >We use icom 2820's through our whole ARES/RACES system with no problem. But >there again, it all comes down to training and practice and teamwork. sorry >for butting in.- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comSent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:57 >AM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the >wheel... > >At 3/26/2008 06:29, you wrote: > >>Radios at emergency opperating positions that will be used by Ham people in >>an emergency need to be commercial radios that are idiot proof. > >Sounds like a good idea on the surface, but the lack of VFO mode IMO >severely limits its usefulness in an emergency. What if only a handful of >repeaters are left on the air & none of them are programmed into the >radios? A user-programmable radio like the Kenwood TK-805D is a >possibility, but to be effective the user must know how to program it. As >I'm sitting here at the keyboard I've already forgotten how to program mine. > >>We tried the Ham radio in emergency com centers for years and they worked >>great but when the E.C. went to the EOC during an activation and could not >>figure out how to set the pl because someone fooled with the buttons >>between activations the radio was useless and these were very simple single >>band radios. > >IMO anyone who can't figure out how to use their radio shouldn't be >volunteering. That is supposedly what distinguishes hams from the general >population: our operating expertise. > >Bob NO6B > > > Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
I agree with Ron. You'll never get them trained. They solved the problem in our County HazMat truck by installing commercial two-way radios programmed to the area repeaters. You simply dial to the proper channel and the frequency and PL is programmed in and can't be messed up. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: "Ron Wright" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 7:11 AM Subject: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... > From my 15+ years experience with emergency comm here 90% of those who > show up to help NEVER come to meetings. How you going to put them in a > training class? You are not. > > Also I can train Hams on a radio right down to the nitty griddy details > and 2 years later when they come in for a real operation they will swear > they have never seen the radio, hi. > > The process is to set up the rigs so all one has to do is turn on, set to > memory 1, 2 or 3 (which given on a well displayed info sheet), pick up the > mike and communicate. Hams do a pretty good job of talking. > > If there are complex issues one needs a central one, two or three person > "expert" on the equipment. > > The Military has done this for decades. A troop can go from CA to TN and > operate the rigs in the TOC. The tactics will differ, but the radios are > not the problem. We should strive for this simplicity in Ham emergency > commo. > > 73, ron, n9ee/r > >
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel...
>From my 15+ years experience with emergency comm here 90% of those who show up >to help NEVER come to meetings. How you going to put them in a training >class? You are not. Also I can train Hams on a radio right down to the nitty griddy details and 2 years later when they come in for a real operation they will swear they have never seen the radio, hi. The process is to set up the rigs so all one has to do is turn on, set to memory 1, 2 or 3 (which given on a well displayed info sheet), pick up the mike and communicate. Hams do a pretty good job of talking. If there are complex issues one needs a central one, two or three person "expert" on the equipment. The Military has done this for decades. A troop can go from CA to TN and operate the rigs in the TOC. The tactics will differ, but the radios are not the problem. We should strive for this simplicity in Ham emergency commo. 73, ron, n9ee/r >From: Nate Duehr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: 2008/03/26 Wed AM 04:36:47 CDT >To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic, trying not to re-invent the wheel... > > >On Mar 25, 2008, at 4:28 PM, Mike Morris WA6ILQ wrote: >> (card 1 face) >> Operating Instructions using preprogrammed memory channels: >> >> 1. Turn on radio, adjust volume and squelch > >Step 1... > >Turn off odd-ball rig you've never seen before, and pull the one >you're used to using out of your go kit. Hook it to the powerpoles >and antenna connection so graciously already provided behind the rig >on the desk, and operate. (GRIN) > >Just kidding Mike -- kinda. Sorry, no cheat sheets for the Yaesu's >here. > >The real confusion for most modern rigs is that they expect people to >think in terms of "modes" or "menus" and making up cheat sheets that >cover any possible odd-ball menu or mode the rig could get left in, is >difficult. An operator can also go into a deep menu somewhere and set >a setting that drives everyone else bonkers trying to figure out why >the rig is "misbehaving". (A good example would be turning off the >ALC on an SSB rig... down in a menu somewhere, and then walking away. >Will drive the next op bananas and they'll never find it if they're >unfamiliar with the rig, without a menu by menu search for the >problem. You might even see a frustrated operator do a soft-reset on >the rig, thus blowing away all the memories and other stuff someone >worked hard on.) > >Want some realistic training and some fun? Get some duplicates of all >the radio types (even if borrowed) and set them up the same as the >rigs currently being used. Hook 'em to power and dummy loads in a >training room, then hand people 4 X 5 cards with their tactical >callsigns, a message to pass to another stations, and tell them they >have to set up a net on a particular frequency and pass the traffic. >Go. > >Randomly assign operators to the radios in the training room, and then >start a stopwatch. (GRIN) > >No cheat sheets, no laminated cards... all you get is the grey >matter in your skull and your eyeballs to read the tiny little labels >on the buttons on the rig. No matter if you've used that rig before >or not. Have an instructor or two monitor over their shoulders who >know that rig, to catch them and stop them if they do anything that >might damage the rig or otherwise leave it badly misconfigured. > >As a bonus, you would quickly find out what radio is a complete pain >in the ass for the operators, and you can pull it out and mandate it >not be installed at any EOC. (BIGGER GRIN) > >-- >Nate Duehr, WY0X >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
