Re: Powerbook dials internet once an hour?

[Matthew Tevenan]

The Retrospect Client will check its network connection every one hour. If
your connection is a dial-up connection, this means it will try to dial out.
That's why I recommended using Location Manager to switch between extension
sets...

This one-hour interval is up from a ten-second interval with the 4.0 client.

Matthew Tevenan
Technical Support Specialist
Dantz Development Corporation
925.253.3050 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> From: "Edmund A. Hintz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: "retro-talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:00:19 -0700
> To: "retro-talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Powerbook dials internet once an hour?
> 
> I can't resist a good whack on a dead horse...
> 
> I don't think I saw anybody mention "web sharing" as a possible source of
> mystery ip connections... along with file sharing over IP, NTP lookups from
> date&time, and unchecking "load only when needed" in the tcp/ip cdev. If
> none of these are culprits, a test with the Mac OS only init set might find
> another 3rd party init at fault...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Ed Hintz
> Geek Guy
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Storage space smarts

[Bob Durst]

>Dean Brissinger writes:
>
>>On a side note, does Retrospect check for identical files
>>between backup clients?  I have 30 macs with identical system
>>folders.  I really only need to backup those system files once.  If
>>retrospect was so smart, I could do full backups site wide and get
>>most efficient coverage with minimal tape space.  I note it tends to
>>backup more than it needs to because of volume name, time stamp, etc.
>
>Alas, there are files that change their time stamp any time they are
>accessed. Retrospect has no choice but to back them up unless you use an
>exclude filter.

Is there (or could there be) a filter that allows one to exclude a 
file based on ONLY a changed date/time stamp? Or maybe better still 
one that did a further compare (checksum or ...) to decide that it 
was ok to skip a particular file because it really was backed up 
already.
-- 
-Bob D.
Builder and Pilot of Kinetic Sculpture Vehicle "Killer Tomato"
Visit my web site (http://www.bcc.orst.edu/~durstb/ )for pictures and 
additional info. 



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Re: Powerbook dials internet once an hour?

[Edmund A. Hintz]

I can't resist a good whack on a dead horse...

I don't think I saw anybody mention "web sharing" as a possible source of
mystery ip connections... along with file sharing over IP, NTP lookups from
date&time, and unchecking "load only when needed" in the tcp/ip cdev. If
none of these are culprits, a test with the Mac OS only init set might find
another 3rd party init at fault...

Regards,

Ed Hintz
Geek Guy
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Powerbook dials internet once an hour?

[Stefan Jeglinski]

>Sorry for the rant. All flames will (seriously!) be directed to
>/dev/null. To try to salvage something from my post, I suggest
>get IPNR and -watch- the
  ^

Sorry, I meant IPNM: IPNetMonitor. 



Stefan Jeglinski



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Re: Powerbook dials internet once an hour?

[Stefan Jeglinski]

various parts snipped:

>>>This seems to be curing the symptom, not the route cause of the
>>>  problem. Why are they trying to dial out, there must be a reason?
>>>  This is not normal Mac behaviour, WiNT maybe, but not Mac.
>>
>>On the contrary; it is absolutely normal behavior for any computer that uses
>>TCP/IP services as part of the core OS. The majority of new Macs being sold
>>are being connected to the Internet, and Apple has taken full advantage of
>>this fact in the feature set of the Mac OS.
>
>
>Yes, but that's not what I meant. You have actually told the OS (or 
>its components) to do something that requires a connection. If you 
>don't ask it to do those things it will not connect. My Macs do NOT 
>connect except when I know something is asking for the connection. 
>They NEVER connect all by themselves for no reason.

I agree that they never connect for -no- reason. But IMHO the 
previous correspondent has a point, which I paraphrase as "more and 
more you will do what Apple wants you to do, not necessarily what you 
want to do."

In the past few years, as Macs have become more internet savvy, I've 
run into mystery connections. Yes, they generally have a solution, 
but not always. For example, I have a 6500 with 9.0.4 which demands 
the right to do a DNS lookup whenever the File Sharing CP is opened. 
It does not matter if file sharing is on or not; in fact, the CP can 
be already open and if I just click on the Activity Monitor tab and 
then back to Start/Stop, it demands to do a DNS lookup -again-. No 
way to turn it off. If that 6500 can't get to a DNS server, it's a 45 
sec -lockup-. It also does not matter what kind of TCP/IP connection 
I'm set to (ethernet, DCHP, etc). I have a G4/9.0.4 which under the 
same circumstances shows no such behavior.

I've tried lots and lots of stuff, and have talked to Apple about the 
6500. I call it a bug, but I will not be getting much support from 
Apple for the 6500. They'd much rather I buy a G4 to solve my problem 
(go jump, Apple). The 6500 is an extreme example (but should it be?), 
since it is SO old (like, 2-3 years!). Powerbooks are less extreme, 
but I wouldn't trust a Pismo to necessarily behave like an original 
Wallstreet.

>Making the user do extra work because the Mac is not well set up is 
>not ideal IMO.

Agreed, but mysteries and bugs abound. And who (with Apple's recent 
history of DHCP issues, for example) really trusts Apple to get this 
all correct under the diversity of connection circumstances possible 
today? Not me.

Sorry for the rant. All flames will (seriously!) be directed to 
/dev/null. To try to salvage something from my post, I suggest get 
IPNR and -watch- the connections that are being made and when. Then 
you will have a clue as to what is going on (and probably, but not 
necessarily a solution).


Stefan Jeglinski



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Re: Powerbook dials internet once an hour?

[Ken Gillett]

At 9:38 AM -0500 29/6/00, Jon Gardner wrote:
>>  This seems to be curing the symptom, not the route cause of the
>>  problem. Why are they trying to dial out, there must be a reason?
>>  This is not normal Mac behaviour, WiNT maybe, but not Mac. Find out
>>  what is causing them to attempt the connection.
>
>On the contrary; it is absolutely normal behavior for any computer that uses
>TCP/IP services as part of the core OS. The majority of new Macs being sold
>are being connected to the Internet, and Apple has taken full advantage of
>this fact in the feature set of the Mac OS. If the Mac is set to use a
>network time server, check for software updates, or do any of a myriad of
>other built-in Internet-based activities, then it will try to establish a
>connection. That's exactly why the Remote Access setup has the option to
>force a manual connection.


Yes, but that's not what I meant. You have actually told the OS (or 
its components) to do something that requires a connection. If you 
don't ask it to do those things it will not connect. My Macs do NOT 
connect except when I know something is asking for the connection. 
They NEVER connect all by themselves for no reason. WiNT on the other 
hand has a reputation for making spurious connections when no 
application is asking for one.

If you turn off the 'connect when needed' function, the user has to 
connect just to let the Mac set its clock (as in your example). If 
you don't want the user to have to do this, stop the Mac from trying 
to set the time from the Internet, rather than make the user do 
manual connections just to avoid this.

Anyway, these PowerBooks can be set up so that they do not keep 
connecting as seems to be the problem, yet will connect when needed 
without the user having to start the connection process. Making the 
user do extra work because the Mac is not well set up is not ideal 
IMO.



-- 



Ken  G i l l e t t
---


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Re: Storage space smarts

[Daniel Knight]

Dean Brissinger writes:

>On a side note, does Retrospect check for identical files 
>between backup clients?  I have 30 macs with identical system 
>folders.  I really only need to backup those system files once.  If 
>retrospect was so smart, I could do full backups site wide and get 
>most efficient coverage with minimal tape space.  I note it tends to 
>backup more than it needs to because of volume name, time stamp, etc.

Alas, there are files that change their time stamp any time they are 
accessed. Retrospect has no choice but to back them up unless you use an 
exclude filter.

Dan Knight, information systems manager   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Baker Book House Company 
6030 East Fulton   616-676-9185 x146
Ada, Michigan 49301 fax 616-676-9573

 - Macintosh: Love bug resistant, always Y2K ready



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Re: Storage space smarts

[Matthew Tevenan]

Dean,

Here's the procedure Retrospect goes through when deciding whether to copy
files:

Scan drive
Compare files scanned with backup set.
Mark files that have changed/are new.
Copy files...

Note I said "compare...with backup set." Retrospect does a file-by-file
compare, meaning it compares the FILES on your drive to the FILES on your
backup set. No matter what drive or computer they were originally backed up
on.

That said, it's doubtful your 30 System Folders are exactly identical. To
test this, try a backup of a System Folder to a new or recycled backup set.
Now, start an immediate backup, matching enabled, of another System Folder.
Don't start the backup but click Preview. (Alternatively, you may be able to
browse a System Folder in Configure>Volumes, select all, browse another
System Folder, and paste.) All checked files without diamonds next to them
are different and will be copied. You can get info/properties on any file in
a Browser, so if there are specific files you think Retrospect should not
want to copy, take a closer look...

Matthew Tevenan
Technical Support Specialist
Dantz Development Corporation
925.253.3050 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> From: Dean Brissinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: "retro-talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:32:22 -0600
> To: "retro-talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Storage space smarts
> 
> On a side note, does Retrospect check for identical files
> between backup clients?  I have 30 macs with identical system
> folders.  I really only need to backup those system files once.  If
> retrospect was so smart, I could do full backups site wide and get
> most efficient coverage with minimal tape space.  I note it tends to
> backup more than it needs to because of volume name, time stamp, etc.
> 
> 
> At 3:49 AM -0700 06/29/00, Ming-Li wrote:
>> Hi Matthew,
>> 
>>> Retrospect uses several matching criteria to compare files
>>> that have already been backed up to what is about to be backed
>>> up. If one of the following has been changed at all,
>>> Retrospect will back up the file again:
>>> 
>>> MAC files:
>>> name, size, type, creator, creation date and time,
>>> modify date and time, and label.
>>> 
>>> PC files:
>>> name, size, modify date and time, file system.
>> 
>> Have you ever consider using something even more accurate as the
>> criterion--say, CRC32, or some sort of file signature? Will it
>> slow down Retrospect significantly than the current approach?
>> 
>> I'm asking because I've found many different applications put
>> same version of system files (dll and such) with different
>> date/time. The file name, size and version no. (by checking the
>> file's properties) stay the same, and a binary comparison would
>> show the two files are identical. They have touched the
>> date/time probably because they want all their files to have the
>> same date/time, or because the original software development
>> package (MS C++, Delphi, etc.) did so. And some other software
>> would make the date/time of its installation the date/time of
>> all the files it put in, regardless their original date/time.
>> 
>> Under current design, Retrospect would back those files up
>> again.  By way of CRC32 check, Retrospect would find those files
>> are indeed identical to the original ones and skip them.  It
>> would not only save storage space, but also give me extra
>> confidence for whenever I catch some new application overwriting
>> my system files, I can look in Retrospect's backup preview
>> window and find which of them are in fact identical (hence no
>> worry) and which are different (so I might have to restore my
>> backed up version to see which one is in fact newer).
>> 
>> I don't know if any application would change a file's content
>> without changing its date/time and size.  But if that happens, a
>> CRC32 check would expose them, too.
>> 
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Ming-Li
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> . . . . . . . . ooo . . . . ooo . . . . . . . . .
> .   .
> .Dean Brissinger - Systems Administrator.
> .   Direct: 303-583-0278   Main: 303-444-0094   .
> .   Fax: 303-444-0470  http://www.vexcel.com/   .
> .   .
> . . . . . . . oOOo . . A . . oOOo . . . . . . . .
> 0 0
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Re: Storage space smarts

[Dean Brissinger]

On a side note, does Retrospect check for identical files 
between backup clients?  I have 30 macs with identical system 
folders.  I really only need to backup those system files once.  If 
retrospect was so smart, I could do full backups site wide and get 
most efficient coverage with minimal tape space.  I note it tends to 
backup more than it needs to because of volume name, time stamp, etc.


At 3:49 AM -0700 06/29/00, Ming-Li wrote:
>Hi Matthew,
>
>>  Retrospect uses several matching criteria to compare files
>>  that have already been backed up to what is about to be backed
>>  up. If one of the following has been changed at all,
>>  Retrospect will back up the file again:
>>
>>  MAC files:
>>  name, size, type, creator, creation date and time,
>>  modify date and time, and label.
>>
>>  PC files:
>>  name, size, modify date and time, file system.
>
>Have you ever consider using something even more accurate as the
>criterion--say, CRC32, or some sort of file signature? Will it
>slow down Retrospect significantly than the current approach?
>
>I'm asking because I've found many different applications put
>same version of system files (dll and such) with different
>date/time. The file name, size and version no. (by checking the
>file's properties) stay the same, and a binary comparison would
>show the two files are identical. They have touched the
>date/time probably because they want all their files to have the
>same date/time, or because the original software development
>package (MS C++, Delphi, etc.) did so. And some other software
>would make the date/time of its installation the date/time of
>all the files it put in, regardless their original date/time.
>
>Under current design, Retrospect would back those files up
>again.  By way of CRC32 check, Retrospect would find those files
>are indeed identical to the original ones and skip them.  It
>would not only save storage space, but also give me extra
>confidence for whenever I catch some new application overwriting
>my system files, I can look in Retrospect's backup preview
>window and find which of them are in fact identical (hence no
>worry) and which are different (so I might have to restore my
>backed up version to see which one is in fact newer).
>
>I don't know if any application would change a file's content
>without changing its date/time and size.  But if that happens, a
>CRC32 check would expose them, too.
>
>--
>Best regards,
>Ming-Li
>
>
>
>
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-- 
. . . . . . . . ooo . . . . ooo . . . . . . . . .
.   .
.Dean Brissinger - Systems Administrator.
.   Direct: 303-583-0278   Main: 303-444-0094   .
.   Fax: 303-444-0470  http://www.vexcel.com/   .
.   .
. . . . . . . oOOo . . A . . oOOo . . . . . . . .
  0 0
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Re: Powerbook dials internet once an hour?

[Matthew Tevenan]

I'd recommend setting up at least two extension sets--one for when you're
connected to the network, with the client loaded, and one for when you're
not, with the client disabled. Then use Location Manager to switch between
the two depending on where you are. That's what I use with my laptop and it
works great.

Matthew Tevenan
Technical Support Specialist
Dantz Development Corporation
925.253.3050 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> From: Jon Gardner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: "retro-talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:38:32 -0500
> To: retro-talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Powerbook dials internet once an hour?
> 
> on 6/29/2000 6:26 AM, Ken Gillett at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
>> This seems to be curing the symptom, not the route cause of the
>> problem. Why are they trying to dial out, there must be a reason?
>> This is not normal Mac behaviour, WiNT maybe, but not Mac. Find out
>> what is causing them to attempt the connection.
> 
> On the contrary; it is absolutely normal behavior for any computer that uses
> TCP/IP services as part of the core OS. The majority of new Macs being sold
> are being connected to the Internet, and Apple has taken full advantage of
> this fact in the feature set of the Mac OS. If the Mac is set to use a
> network time server, check for software updates, or do any of a myriad of
> other built-in Internet-based activities, then it will try to establish a
> connection. That's exactly why the Remote Access setup has the option to
> force a manual connection.
> 
> <><
> Jon L. Gardner '89, Computer Systems Manager 
> Texas A&M University Dept. of Food Services 
> Tel 979.458.1839 Fax 979.845.2157 ICQ 34792860
> PGP public key available at 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> --
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Re: Powerbook dials internet once an hour?

[Jon Gardner]

on 6/29/2000 6:26 AM, Ken Gillett at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> This seems to be curing the symptom, not the route cause of the
> problem. Why are they trying to dial out, there must be a reason?
> This is not normal Mac behaviour, WiNT maybe, but not Mac. Find out
> what is causing them to attempt the connection.

On the contrary; it is absolutely normal behavior for any computer that uses
TCP/IP services as part of the core OS. The majority of new Macs being sold
are being connected to the Internet, and Apple has taken full advantage of
this fact in the feature set of the Mac OS. If the Mac is set to use a
network time server, check for software updates, or do any of a myriad of
other built-in Internet-based activities, then it will try to establish a
connection. That's exactly why the Remote Access setup has the option to
force a manual connection.

<><
Jon L. Gardner '89, Computer Systems Manager 
Texas A&M University Dept. of Food Services 
Tel 979.458.1839 Fax 979.845.2157 ICQ 34792860
PGP public key available at 





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Re: Powerbook dials internet once an hour?

[Ken Gillett]

At 8:16 AM -0700 28/6/00, Andrew Philipoff wrote:
>>so I should uncheck this pref in Remote Access? or will that cause some
>>other internet problems?
>>
>>   >
>>>   It is probably also set to allow TCP/IP applications to initiate a
>>>   connection in:
>>>
>>   > Remote Access control panel:Options:Protocol:Connect Automatically
>>   > when starting TCP/IP applications
>
>Unchecking "Connect automatically when starting TCP/IP applications" 
>will force the user to initiate a PPP/ARAP connection by selecting 
>"Connect" in the Remote Access control panel. What will be lost is 
>the ability to connect by simply launching a web browser, email 
>client, etc. I have disabled this on all our laptops and no one has 
>complained or for that matter even noticed. This may require 
>educating your users to connect via the RA control panel but will 
>spare them the frustration of their laptops constantly dialing out. 
>This will have no effect on TCP/IP connectivity via ethernet.


This seems to be curing the symptom, not the route cause of the 
problem. Why are they trying to dial out, there must be a reason? 
This is not normal Mac behaviour, WiNT maybe, but not Mac. Find out 
what is causing them to attempt the connection.


-- 



Ken  G i l l e t t
---


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Re: Storage space smarts

[Ming-Li]

Hi Matthew,

> Retrospect uses several matching criteria to compare files
> that have already been backed up to what is about to be backed
> up. If one of the following has been changed at all,
> Retrospect will back up the file again:
>
> MAC files:
> name, size, type, creator, creation date and time,
> modify date and time, and label.
>
> PC files:
> name, size, modify date and time, file system.

Have you ever consider using something even more accurate as the
criterion--say, CRC32, or some sort of file signature? Will it
slow down Retrospect significantly than the current approach?

I'm asking because I've found many different applications put
same version of system files (dll and such) with different
date/time. The file name, size and version no. (by checking the
file's properties) stay the same, and a binary comparison would
show the two files are identical. They have touched the
date/time probably because they want all their files to have the
same date/time, or because the original software development
package (MS C++, Delphi, etc.) did so. And some other software
would make the date/time of its installation the date/time of
all the files it put in, regardless their original date/time.

Under current design, Retrospect would back those files up
again.  By way of CRC32 check, Retrospect would find those files
are indeed identical to the original ones and skip them.  It
would not only save storage space, but also give me extra
confidence for whenever I catch some new application overwriting
my system files, I can look in Retrospect's backup preview
window and find which of them are in fact identical (hence no
worry) and which are different (so I might have to restore my
backed up version to see which one is in fact newer).

I don't know if any application would change a file's content
without changing its date/time and size.  But if that happens, a
CRC32 check would expose them, too.

-- 
Best regards,
Ming-Li




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