[sage-devel] Re: VOTE: move Sage development to Github

[Keshav Kini]

+1 for GitHub (hi folks )

-Keshav

On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 10:23:36 AM UTC-7 David Roe wrote:

> Dear Sage developers,
> Following extensive discussion, both recently 
>  
> (prompted 
> by issues upgrading the trac server) and over 
>  the 
>  last 
>  
> decade 
> , we 
> are calling a vote on switching Sage development from Trac 
>  to Github .  We've 
> created a summary of the pros and cons of each system 
> , a 
> description 
> of the development model to be used on github 
> , 
> and a trac ticket  for 
> coordinating work on the transition.  More work will need to be done to 
> carry out the actual transition once voting is complete.
>
> The voting will last until noon Eastern time (16:00 UTC) on Wednesday, 
> October 5.  Please use this thread only for sending votes, to make it 
> easier to count them afterward; there is a parallel thread where you can 
> make arguments in favor of either system.
>
> Finally, I will close with a plea to be involved in this vote and 
> discussion even if you are not a core Sage developer.  By definition, core 
> Sage developers have become comfortable with trac, and I think that one of 
> the major arguments in favor of github is that it will help bring in new 
> contributors who are not familiar with Sage's development workfow 
> .  Anyone who has 
> ever contributed to the Sage code base or who maintains a Sage user package 
> is welcome to vote.
> David
>

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[sage-devel] Re:

[Keshav Kini]

On 07/21/2015 10:37 AM, Елена Соменко wrote:
 
 Hello, Keshav! Thank you for information and for help!
 
 
 Yes, now my goal is to create user interface for Sage Notebook at least.
 Maybe, then  I'll try to work on documentation and other. For your
 advice, I’ll send my translated files on github. Is there a chance to
 see my translation in the next release of Sage?

That's a good question.  It will all depend on the release manager's
schedule.

 You understand me rightly. Documentary proof of authorship my
 translation of the user interface needed for my work. It would be great
 to get it.

I understand.  As I said, probably the best people to answer that
question will be on the Sage mailing lists.  So please reply to all
instead of directly to me, so that others can also see your messages :)

Thanks,
Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re:

[Keshav Kini]

On 07/20/2015 06:18 AM, Елена Соменко wrote:
 Hello, Mr. Kini.
 
 My name is Olena Somenko. I am from Kirovograd, Ukraine. I work as a
 senior teacher in Kirovograd Institute of Human Development. Our
 teachers and students actively use Sage in the work.  So, there is a
 need to create Ukrainian localization of this wonderful program. I think
 this can be able to improve and make easier work with Sage for many
 Ukrainian users.

Great idea!

 But I have some questions and need some help. Can you to prompt me, please?
 
 I’ve already created Ukrainian translation of Sage. I used messages.pot
 file that I find on GitHub sagemath/sagenb. Is it right? Now I have two
 files: messages.po and messages.mo. Where I have to send it for
 including my translation into the next version of Sage?

Awesome, that means you have created a translation for the sagenb (Sage
Notebook) user interface.  But that won't include translations for other
parts of Sage, such as the documentation of library functions, the
manual, things like that.

I'm CCing the sage-devel and sage-notebook mailing lists to solicit
further advice from Sage developers who are more active these days than
I am.  But since you have created those messages.po and messages.mo, I
think a good step would be to make a pull request on github to have them
added to the sagenb repository.

 And can I receive any documentary proof from Sage of the fact that I am
 the first author of this translation?

I assume you mean in the sense of being able to cite your translation as
an academic publication?  I will defer this question to the Sage lists
as well, since I am not familiar enough with relevant citation
conventions to answer this question.

Thanks,
Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: systemd and trac #381

[Keshav Kini]

Henry de Valence hdevale...@hdevalence.ca writes:
 Hi all,

 while looking at the SAGE FAQ here [1], I noticed the link to Trac #381 [2]
 (the link is broken, on the FAQ page, though).

 One option which is not mentioned, but which is extremely convenient,
 is to run Sage using a systemd user session. The Arch Linux packages 
 for Sage include the file

 /usr/lib/systemd/user/sage.service

[snip]

 This approach requires systemd and is Linux-specific, but as every major
 Linux distribution is either using systemd now or plans to move to it in
 the future, it seems like it might be worthwhile for Sage to ship 
 systemd .service files for Linux users.

+1, this sounds like a good idea!  I made #15828 to track this, though I
don't (yet) use systemd so I won't involve myself in actually doing the
work ;)

http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/15828

Thanks,
Keshav

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[sage-devel] Giant email subjects from Trac

[Keshav Kini]

Hi,

Check this out: http://i.imgur.com/sbNIk6J.png

I *literally* cannot read this mail, because my monitor is not large
enough for the message body to even appear in my mail client!  :)  Even
View Source doesn't work, since the thing is UUencoded!

I guess someone will say I should use a better mail client...

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Giant email subjects from Trac

[Keshav Kini]

P Purkayastha ppu...@gmail.com writes:
 On 02/01/2014 12:33 AM, Keshav Kini wrote:
 Hi,

 Check this out: http://i.imgur.com/sbNIk6J.png

 I *literally* cannot read this mail, because my monitor is not large
 enough for the message body to even appear in my mail client!  :)  Even
 View Source doesn't work, since the thing is UUencoded!

 I guess someone will say I should use a better mail client...

 Yeah, a better mail client and a bigger monitor. That one is not even
 full HD. You need 4K resolution at least.

I'll let you know if I can read the message on my 1440p monitor when I
get home from work ;)

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Remaining Mercurial patches

[Keshav Kini]

maldun dom...@gmx.net writes:

 And I have another question: why github? afaik bitbucket would allow
 to use both git and mercurial. So it is possible for users to submit
 a mercurial patch on a git repo and vice versa. I think this would
 avoid a lot of compability issues.

I've never heard of such a feature of bitbucket.  Bitbucket supports git
and mercurial, yes, but in separate repositories, not in the same
repository.  I've never heard of bitbucket users being able to submit
mercurial patches to git repos and vice versa (in fact I've never heard
of bitbucket users being able to submit patches at all).  Do you have
a source for this?

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: motivation: here's one reason your contributions to Sage matter...

[Keshav Kini]

rjf fate...@gmail.com writes:
 On Monday, September 30, 2013 11:42:43 PM UTC-7, Keshav Kini wrote:
 But as far as I know, Sage is not proof-aware in any way.  
  
 Why would you necessarily know about this?

I don't know, why would I?

 I am well aware
 that Maxima, a component of Sage, has been used to generate proofs.

Being used to generate proofs is not the same as proof-aware.

 I guess you are not listening to the right theorem-proving people.

Mm.

 To return to my question, you mentioned Sage specifically as an
 example
 of a problem and a solution.  I was wondering what you meant by
 that --
 do you see Sage as posing and/or solving some particular theorem
 proving
 -related problem?

 I think you could spend some time with the Google...  But if you need
 a particular pointer ...

 It has been shown that certain geometry theorem proofs can be reduced
 to algebra,
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu%27s_method_of_characteristic_set

 for some people the most prominent example among many connections
 between
 computer algebra and proofs.

I see you have no interest in answering the question I actually asked,
so I'll leave it at that.  Thanks anyway.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: motivation: here's one reason your contributions to Sage matter...

[Keshav Kini]

john_perry_usm john.pe...@usm.edu writes:
 On Tuesday, October 1, 2013 1:42:43 AM UTC-5, Keshav Kini wrote:

 But as far as I know, Sage is not proof-aware in any way.  I've
 never
 heard theorem-proving people talk about making use of existing
 computer
 algebra systems and I can't imagine how they could be useful in
 the
 business of well-founded theorem proving when they are themselves
 not
 verified.


 Strictly FYI, Buchberger was talking about how he was using
 Mathematica as a base for the Theorema project over 10 years ago.

 http://www.ercim.eu/publication/Ercim_News/enw50/buchberger.html
 http://www.risc.jku.at/research/theorema/

 He's shown off some pretty impressive stuff. If I could afford
 Mathematica (in terms of energy and time as well as money) I might be
 interested in learning about it. I have no idea how well-regarded
 Theorema is in that community, however.

Interesting, thanks!

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: motivation: here's one reason your contributions to Sage matter...

[Keshav Kini]

rjf fate...@gmail.com writes:

 On Sunday, September 29, 2013 9:53:07 AM UTC-7, Keshav Kini wrote:



 Could you elaborate on what relevance you see Sage having to
 truth
 maintenance and theorem proving?


 Typically the people who work in these areas feel that they have a
 great deal to
 offer to mathematicians.  See the MKM conference proceedings.  They
 also feel that they might make great use of computer algebra systems
 or
 other mathematics-oriented programs to assist in their activities. 
 So it
 is potentially a 2-way street.

Hmm, OK.

But as far as I know, Sage is not proof-aware in any way.  I've never
heard theorem-proving people talk about making use of existing computer
algebra systems and I can't imagine how they could be useful in the
business of well-founded theorem proving when they are themselves not
verified.  If any CAS were to be used in such an endeavour I imagine it
would be something with a more principled code structure than Sage, like
Axiom.  And indeed, Wikipedia tells me that there are plans to formalize
Axiom in Coq or ACL2.

But the above is just as far as I know.  My experience with theorem
proving is mainly from the CS / PLT perspective, and I've never heard of
MKM so clearly I don't have a sufficiently broad view of the subject.
I'll endeavor to further edify myself.

To return to my question, you mentioned Sage specifically as an example
of a problem and a solution.  I was wondering what you meant by that --
do you see Sage as posing and/or solving some particular theorem proving
-related problem?

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: motivation: here's one reason your contributions to Sage matter...

[Keshav Kini]

Julien Puydt julien.pu...@laposte.net writes:

 Le 01/10/2013 08:42, Keshav Kini a écrit :
 But as far as I know, Sage is not proof-aware in any way.  I've never
 heard theorem-proving people talk about making use of existing computer
 algebra systems and I can't imagine how they could be useful in the
 business of well-founded theorem proving when they are themselves not
 verified.  If any CAS were to be used in such an endeavour I imagine it
 would be something with a more principled code structure than Sage, like
 Axiom.  And indeed, Wikipedia tells me that there are plans to formalize
 Axiom in Coq or ACL2.

 A CAS need not be proof-aware to actually find relations, prove them and
 present proof-certificates ; for very specific and interesting examples,
 see the book A=B by Petrovsek, Wilf and Zeilberger, which is available
 in all good libraries, and also on:
 http://www.math.upenn.edu/~wilf/AeqB.html

Oh, thanks, of course you're right.  If the CAS can generate
certificates there's no problem.  Many theorem provers seem to have the
capability to farm out subcomputations to external systems, usually
things like SAT solvers or what-have-you.

I still don't see what theorem-proving-related problem and solution Sage
already represents, though.  Has anyone used it for anything
theorem-proving related yet?  I'd be interested to hear about it.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: motivation: here's one reason your contributions to Sage matter...

[Keshav Kini]

rjf fate...@gmail.com writes:
 5. Assemblies of people who study large computer systems, parallel
 computing, software techniques for
 compilation, truth maintenance, theorem proving, etc ... in which
 Sage is some kind of example of a
 problem and solution which can be explained to others and others can
 offer suggestions.  Perhaps
 a friends-of-python conference.

Could you elaborate on what relevance you see Sage having to truth
maintenance and theorem proving?

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: centered banner

[Keshav Kini]

P Purkayastha ppu...@gmail.com writes:

 Hi devs,

 How would you like a centered banner when sage is started? Is that
 something desirable, or do you always prefer a left-aligned banner?

Left-aligned, please, unless you can get it to re-center when the
terminal changes size.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Is the glass half-full or half-empty ? Pick a standard.

[Keshav Kini]

Darij Grinberg darijgrinb...@gmail.com writes:

 Hi,

 On Tuesday, 20 August 2013 23:21:43 UTC+2, Andrew Gainer-Dewar wrote:

 How about extending the input signature of Graph.is_connected()
 to
 include an option

 empty_graph_is_connected = False

 ?


 The problem with such a global variable is that is_connected() is
 used not just by humans, but also by other methods. The authors of
 those methods don't always know about the global variables affecting
 the computation; this is what caused the characteristic symmetric
 function mess in http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/14885 . And even if
 they do, it is hard to work around this to obtain reliable behavior;
 one would have to change the global variable within the computation
 and then change it back at the end.

I don't think anyone was suggesting a global variable.
empty_graph_is_connected would be a keyword option to is_connected().

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Keshav Kini]

William Stein wst...@gmail.com writes:
 Also, UTF is clearly the future of strings, having native default
 support in modern interpreters, editors, etc., and also being critical
 to supporting users who aren't using English.

Maybe one day Sage will support something like agda-input-method in
Emacs :)

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: setlocale problem

[Keshav Kini]

Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com writes:

 Are you ssh-ing into the machine or not? And if yes, from where? It
 is not recommended to forward the environment by default over ssh but
 it can be configured (see SendEnv, AcceptEnv in the ssh
 configuration, /etc/ssh/ or ~/.ssh/config)

It's not recommended? Debian seems to recommend it: 
https://wiki.debian.org/Locale#SSH_Client

Gentoo also started to do this last year: 
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=367017

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: New Trac Server

[Keshav Kini]

R. Andrew Ohana andrew.oh...@gmail.com writes:

 Ok, everything should be back up and running now.

Cool!

Bug report: http://trac.tangentspace.org/ doesn't work anymore. If that
is intended behavior, then I guess the fact that trac email
notifications link to trac.tangentspace.org is correspondingly
unintended behavior.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: New doctest continuation ....:

[Keshav Kini]

Simon King simon.k...@uni-jena.de writes:
 On 2013-06-20, kcrisman kcris...@gmail.com wrote:
 the matroids code (#7477) has plenty of examples. Until now I wasn't even 
 aware of the existence of live documentation... but it's incredibly useful! 


 It is SO useful!!! 

 I've never heard of it either. Can you briefly explain what it is?

It's a view of the Sage documentation (reference manual, etc.) which is
displayed like a worksheet, allowing you to manually execute code
examples (doctests) and play with them. You can find it by the rather
roundabout way of opening the Sage notebook, clicking Help at the top
of the screen, and then clicking one of the unassuming-looking
rectangular buttons near the top of the page (such as Reference Manual
or Tutorial).

Honestly I never would have found that unless someone had pointed it out
to me at a Sage Days, since I would never think to click those buttons
under the Help page in the notebook -- I had just assumed they were the
same static documentation as elsewhere.

I guess it's more discoverable to a user whose first exposure to Sage
was via sagenb.org, but for me, before I ever used the notebook I had
installed Sage from source and read bits of the tutorial at
http://sagemath.org/doc while doing so, so that's where I would
instinctively go if I wanted to look up anything. That, or my local copy
of the built HTML docs.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: The 2013 Spies Prize winner is...

[Keshav Kini]

William Stein wst...@gmail.com writes:

 Jeroen Demeyer has provided excellent service to the Sage community as
 release manager, starting with Version 4.6.1 in January 2011, just
 five months after his first code contribution.  He has continued to
 contribute significant code to the Sage library in the area of number
 theory, including over forty contributions related to the fundamental
 Sage package of PARI.

 Jeroen is everything the Sage community could ask for in a release
 manager.  He is a trusted custodian of the code and has built an
 impressive system for frequent beta and final releases.  He works
 carefully with developers and users to balance the priorities of
 fast-paced cutting-edge development, backwards compatibility,
 portability, and high-quality software.  During his tenure as release
 manager, he has earned great respect while making difficult decisions
 as he shaped the Sage that the world sees.  His efficient, timely,
 fair and knowledgeable work has won him the admiration of the Sage
 development community and has rendered a great service to the much
 larger user community.

 For his conscientious and technically excellent work as Sage release
 manager, and his significant contributions to the Sage library, Jeroen
 Demeyer is awarded the 2013 Spies Prize.

 Please join me in congratulating Jeroen!

Congratulations, Jeroen, and thanks for all your hard work! :)

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: New doctest continuation ....:

[Keshav Kini]

Stefan stefanvanz...@gmail.com writes:

 The fix should be adding two lines after line 374 of

 https://github.com/sagemath/sagenb/blob/master/sagenb/notebook/docHTMLProcessor.py

 I don't have time to get acquainted with Notebook development right now, or 
 I'd fix it myself...

Like this, I imagine? 
https://github.com/kini/sagenb/compare/doctest-continuations

(Sorry, can't test it myself right now since I don't have
Sage installed on this machine.)

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: New doctest continuation ....:

[Keshav Kini]

Stefan stefanvanz...@gmail.com writes:

 I'd ask for p[6:], that's the expected use and consistent with the previous 
 line which tests for '... ' (note the space).

I agree with that - I was just miming the .lstrip() after 'sage:' found
in previous lines. I'll fix it.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: New doctest continuation ....:

[Keshav Kini]

Keshav Kini keshav.k...@gmail.com writes:
 Stefan stefanvanz...@gmail.com writes:

 I'd ask for p[6:], that's the expected use and consistent with the previous 
 line which tests for '... ' (note the space).

 I agree with that - I was just miming the .lstrip() after 'sage:' found
 in previous lines. I'll fix it.

OK, pushed. How much does this break things, kcrisman? :) 
https://github.com/kini/sagenb/compare/doctest-continuations

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: New doctest continuation ....:

[Keshav Kini]

Keshav Kini keshav.k...@gmail.com writes:
 Keshav Kini keshav.k...@gmail.com writes:
 Stefan stefanvanz...@gmail.com writes:

 I'd ask for p[6:], that's the expected use and consistent with the previous 
 line which tests for '... ' (note the space).

 I agree with that - I was just miming the .lstrip() after 'sage:' found
 in previous lines. I'll fix it.

 OK, pushed. How much does this break things, kcrisman? :) 
 https://github.com/kini/sagenb/compare/doctest-continuations

Actually I just made it a pull request - feel free to further discuss it
there (sorry for all the list spam).

https://github.com/sagemath/sagenb/pull/172

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: A file-based Cc in Trac

[Keshav Kini]

Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com writes:

 Hellooo everybody !!!

 I just wondered if there was a way (or if there *will* be a way when
 we will be using git) to be automatically emailed when a ticket
 contains a patch that touches a specific file.

Well, with git, if you kept a local mirror of trac's repo, you could run

git log --all ^master -- path/to/file

to get a list of all commits on trac (not necessarily on a ticket, maybe
in the combinat queue or something) that touch the file but haven't yet
been merged. Or to make it look nicer,

git log --oneline --graph --stat --all ^master -- path/to/file

Or if this was a feature that more than one person would use, someone
could write a checker and mailer into the post-receive hook in trac's
repo.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: A file-based Cc in Trac

[Keshav Kini]

kcrisman kcris...@gmail.com writes:
 Personally, I find this very annoying.  Maybe we can encourage people
 to add something to the comments whenever they update a patch (at
 least if they want it reviewed). 

As a data point, I seem to recall being told to do this at Sage Days 27,
when I had only been working with Sage for a couple of months.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Mirror for 32-bit Ubuntu LTS.

[Keshav Kini]

leif not.rea...@online.de writes:
 Thierry wrote:
 Hi,

 looking at
 http://ask.sagemath.org/question/2582/installing-error-in-linux-mint-13
 i saw that sagemath.org only distributes 32-bit binaries for Ubuntu
 13.04. While it is good to have binaries for the last version of ubuntu,
 it could be nice to propose binaries for the LTS as well (currently
 12.04).

 We used to have such (at least until last year), and in fact *only*
 for LTS versions, which AFAIK were previously built in a VM on boxen
 (Harald will know), later on Keshav's(?) buildbot machine arando.

 The 13.04 one got added only recently (arando got upgraded), probably
 /replacing/ the 12.04 one, which IIRC wasn't really intended.

Well, I asked Jeroen whether he preferred to have binaries for the
latest LTS version or the latest general version of Ubuntu and he said
the latter, which is why considered it OK to upgrade arando.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Integer vs. int in python

[Keshav Kini]

Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com writes:

 Anything that does isinstance(i,int) in the Python standard library
 is broken. Usually thats when multiple input types are allowed. In
 this case the argument to match.group() could be a string if you use
 the ?Pname syntax to name the match group.

Yup. For example the simplejson maintainer was even kind enough to patch
away such a piece of code for our purposes a little while ago, so that
we could provide Sage Integers as indentation widths in `json.dump`.
There is probably a lot of Python code out there which fits this
pattern. I guess one could claim it's not Pythonic since it doesn't
follow duck typing.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Reasons for upgrading

[Keshav Kini]

Simon King simon.k...@uni-jena.de writes:
 Does D) really work, currently? If it did, it would be my main reason
 for using upgrade, because I find it a pain in the neck to first build
 Sage from scratch, then check for each patch in my patch queue whether
 it has meanwhile been merged, and import the remaining patches from my
 previous Sage installation.

This can be made a bit easier. See
http://www.sagemath.org/doc/developer/walk_through.html#upgrading-sage-with-queues-present
(my first contribution to Sage, way back when, IIRC :) )

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: browsing Sage source code

[Keshav Kini]

William Stein wst...@gmail.com writes:
 On Apr 22, 2013 11:28 AM, Jeroen Demeyer jdeme...@cage.ugent.be wrote:
 As only link or even the default link, I am against this because
 the repo doesn't correspond to Sage. If I would be new to Sage, I
 would find it very confusing that the source code repo doesn't
 correspond to the downloaded tarball.

 We could easily have a github repo that does corr. to the last
 release.

I think what Jeroen means is that the github repo does not correspond in
directory structure to the current =sage-5 directory structure found in
the tarballs, complete with SPKGs etc, but rather to the future =sage-6
directory structure.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: New Trac Server

[Keshav Kini]

Jeroen Demeyer jdeme...@cage.ugent.be writes:
 On 04/22/2013 09:32 PM, John Cremona wrote:
 I volunteer to be the official red-green colour-blind
 guinea-pig if you point me to a suitable sample page.
 Me too by the way.

Wait, weren't you the one who decided this color scheme during Sage Days
40.5 last year...? I definitely recall talking to you about trac's color
scheme...

-Keshav

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[sage-combinat-devel] Re: Upcoming Sage workflow

[Keshav Kini]

Anne Schilling a...@math.ucdavis.edu writes:
 In practice, the team has chosen to base the new workflow on top of
 the DVCS git instead of mercurial previously. I am not necessarily
 convinced by this choice, but I respect it: by doing the work they
 earn the right to do the technical choices. For issue tracking, we
 will still be using trac; however trac will now be aware of the
 underlying DCVS and most operations will be doable from the command
 line, if not offline.

 Could the people in charge give the reasons on why they chose DCVS?

Well, there a couple of questions here. First is, why did we choose a
DVCS (Distributed Version Control System) development model?. Second is
the one Nicolas referred to in his reply to your mail, namely why did
we choose git over other DVCSes?.

To answer the first question: it's mostly accepted that DVCS is a more
powerful, flexible, and convenient model than the old CVCS (centralized
version control system) model.

But this is nothing new to Sage, by the way. From the very beginning,
the Sage developers have been using DVCS software to track version
history. First it was Darcs, then Mercurial, and soon to be git.

However, as Sage matured and gained a large number of contributors,
somewhere along the way we stopped using Mercurial as a DVCS and started
using it as simply a changelog generator. If you go to
$SAGE_ROOT/devel/sage and do `hg log`, you will see that there is only
one single merge commit since 2009, which makes it an extremely linear
CVCS-style history graph.

So our new workflow is really just bringing us back into the spirit of
DVCS.

As to the second question, of why we are switching to git instead of
remaining with Mercurial: well, this is just IMO, but there's not really
a grand overarching reason. It mainly comes down to the fact that those
of us who planned this change are fans of git for various reasons. One
reason is that git has pretty clearly won the battle over DVCS mindshare
- there are more git-aware developers out there than Mercurial-aware
ones, and learning git will serve one better than learning Mercurial.
Speed and full-featuredness of the command-line interface also factor
in. Other reasons relate to the technicalities of the git model of
version control vs. the Mercurial model (they are subtly but importantly
different).

One argument against switching to git that some people raised was that
Sage developers have already spent the time to learn Mercurial and that
switching to git would require retraining. To this I would say that in
reality none of us Sage developers are using many Mercurial commands
that do not start with the letter 'q'. I am confident that if we
switched to a true DVCS-style branching workflow with Mercurial (thereby
completely dropping Mercurial Queues), we would have to re-learn how to
use Mercurial in the new way, and this would take just as much effort as
learning the new workflow under git. So I think it doesn't really matter
that much.

In any case, we have an easy higher-level interface to git which should
be quite easy and intuitive to use, we think. It is still being written
but the planning is more or less done. (See the wiki page Nicolas
linked.)

 The other good news is that, thanks to the hard work the team put into
 this during all week and before, this could be coming relatively
 fast. I for myself will be trying out the new workflow in the coming
 weeks, and maybe a transition period around Sage Days 49?

 Are there instructions on how to switch to the new workflow somewhere?

There will be. We have not yet written all the required code and
documentation to publicly announce the new workflow plan yet, but
Nicolas has pointed you to a wiki page where we are keeping track of
what is yet to be done.

Eventually we will have three tutorials. One will be for current Sage
developers who use Mercurial Queues (including the Combinat team); the
second will be for newbie Sage developers who have no experience with
any development workflow; and the third will be for developers who have
experience with git in other projects but haven't done Sage development
before. Priority of writing these will be more or less in that order.

   - How smooth will it be to jump between branches? E.g. will
 reviewing a branch which is based on the very latest version of
 Sage require a lot of recompilation time?

 That indeed is an important question since it should be easy to switch
 from reviewing a patch in one branch to working on a research project
 in another branch, or getting another ticket ready in a third branch.

Right. We think ccache and cycache should make this work.

Anyway, once we have a more complete product we'll post to sage-devel
with many more details :)

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: GIT + release management

[Keshav Kini]

Jeroen Demeyer jdeme...@cage.ugent.be writes:

 Dear Sage lovers,

 I'm here at the Sage-GIT workshop and it's very clear that the switch
 to GIT is happening.

 The current idea is to have Sage 5.9 and Sage 5.10 with the current
 Mercurial-based workflow. Hopefully before Sage 5.10, there will
 already be a usable GIT-based release in parallel with the Mercurial
 release. This won't have all features yet, but it should be possible
 to use for development (for those who know it). If needed, there will
 be further Sage 5.1x releases until the GIT development scripts are
 ready. Sage 6.0 will then be a release which is only about switching
 to GIT (no other non-GIT-related tickets).

 Sage 5.1x will also be the last release under my release management.
 The switch to GIT is an excellent time for a new release manager,
 since the release workflow will change substantially anyway. Robert
 Bradshaw has agreed to be release manager for Sage 6.0. He doesn't
 want to do further releases, so we need volunteers for release
 management for Sage 6.1 and later.

Thank you for your tireless work over the last few years :) And thanks
for helping us so much with the Git transition too!

-Keshav

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[sage-combinat-devel] Re: sage.math down?

[Keshav Kini]

Dima Pasechnik dimp...@gmail.com writes:
 On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 at 08:28AM -0400, Anne Schilling wrote:
 Is http://sage.math.washington.edu/ down? For the past couple of days
 I tried to download from there and have not been able to connect.
 I'd say http://boxen.math.washington.edu/
 is your best bet now (it shares most things with sage.math, IMHO)

Even shorter, you can use http://wstein.org/home/ to replace
http://boxen.math.washington.edu/home/ :)

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Re: Adding data in patch

[Keshav Kini]

Simon King simon.k...@uni-jena.de writes:
 Hi Keshav,

 On 2013-03-22, Keshav Kini keshav.k...@gmail.com wrote:
 Simon King simon.k...@uni-jena.de writes:
 However, if you *are* upstream (i.e., if your data are only published in
 this form, but not as an independent project), I'd say tracking it with
 mercural is fine. But perhaps other people have a different viewpoint.

 Please don't. When we merge all the SPKGs' repositories in the git
 transition we don't want to pull in upstream source as well. Feel free
 to just leave it untracked in the src/ directory, like other SPKGs do.

 Perhaps you misunderstood. When I wrote However, if you *are*
 upstream, I really meant that the spkg is the only place in which the
 code is published.

Yes, I understood what you meant.

 Hence, we don't want to pull in upstream source as well simply does not
 apply. The question is: Do we want to *remove* source, just because Sage
 is the only project that has this code?

I would say that yes, we do want to remove it - from the unified
repository. The code would still be shipped with Sage in a tarball, but
will not be included in the version history of the unified repository.
Presumably there's a reason that the hypothetical code in question
currently lies in an SPKG and not in the Sage library. 

In the new directory structure we will be separating the install scripts
from the src/ directories, so there won't really be anywhere to put the
code from the src/ directories other than in the place where we put
other upstream tarballs. See
https://github.com/kini/sage-workflow#directory-structure , or
http://wiki.sagemath.org/WorkflowSEP for a more complete picture
(subject to change).

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: one test fails because of optional package

[Keshav Kini]

leif not.rea...@online.de writes:
 kcrisman wrote:


 On Friday, March 22, 2013 9:21:54 AM UTC-4, Rajeev wrote:

 Hi,

 The following test fails because I have some optional packages
 installed -

 $ sage -t  --long -force_lib devel/sage/sage/misc/package.py
 sage -t --long -force_lib devel/sage/sage/misc/package.py
 **
 File
 /home/rajeev/software/general/sage/devel/sage/sage/misc/package.py,
 line 119:
  sage: install_package()
 Expected:
  ['atlas...', 'blas...', ...]
 Got:
  ['PyQt_x11-4.9.1.p0', 'atlas-3.8.4.p1', 'blas-20070724',
 'boehm_gc-7.2.alpha6.p2', 'boost-cropped-1.34.1',



 On the plus side, it's pretty obvious why it failed, and isn't an actual
 failure... I suppose we could sort the list in question with lowercase
 first, assuming we never have a package with as or ar or aa... note that
 in #10508 it will become ['atlas...', ... ] or thereabouts, which
 however wouldn't fix your problem.

 Maybe the right solution is to enforce homogeneity in the optional
 spkgs, that they all must have names like py_qt_x11-x.y.z.pn.spkg.  What
 do people think?

 Just add periods *before* 'atlas...' as well.

This is a better idea, IMO.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: one test fails because of optional package

[Keshav Kini]

John H Palmieri jhpalmier...@gmail.com writes:
 And after it (between 'atlas...' and 'blas...'), just in case. Maybe
 something like

 ['atlas...', ..., 'python...', ...]

Another, probably less computationally expensive option::

sage: len(filter(
: lambda x: x.startswith('atlas') or x.startswith('blas'),
: install_package())) == 2
True

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Re: Adding data in patch

[Keshav Kini]

Simon King simon.k...@uni-jena.de writes:
 However, if you *are* upstream (i.e., if your data are only published in
 this form, but not as an independent project), I'd say tracking it with
 mercural is fine. But perhaps other people have a different viewpoint.

Please don't. When we merge all the SPKGs' repositories in the git
transition we don't want to pull in upstream source as well. Feel free
to just leave it untracked in the src/ directory, like other SPKGs do.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: gcd regression (?)

[Keshav Kini]

kcrisman kcris...@gmail.com writes:
 This caused an interact in class today to break.  Yikes.  Why does
 this no longer work?

 --
 | Sage Version 5.7.rc0, Release Date: 2013-02-16
 |
 | Type notebook() for the browser-based notebook interface.
 |
 | Type help() for help.
 |
 --
 sage: a = mod(5,12)
 sage: gcd(a,12)
 5


 --
 | Sage Version 4.4.4, Release Date: 2010-06-23  
 |
 | Type notebook() for the GUI, and license() for information.
 |
 --
 sage: a = mod(5,12)
 sage: gcd(a,12)
 1

I have no opinion on which of these two is correct, but why does this
expression even make sense? What does it mean to take the GCD of two
objects which are elements of different rings, neither of which is a
subring of the other?

You might say you expect a, an element of Z/12Z, to turn into an integer
by identification with the smallest positive integer that is sent to a
by the quotient map (5 in this case). But this is only consistent when
you happen to be taking the gcd of a with its modulus.

Consider the following::

sage: a = mod(1,7)
sage: gcd(a, 2)

If a is converted to the integer 1, the gcd is of course 1. If it is
converted to 8 (which is equally valid, since 8 is congruent to 1, mod
7), then the gcd is 2.

Another possibility would be to force the other argument into Z/mZ. Sage
does not do this::

sage: type(gcd(mod(5,12),12))
type 'sage.rings.integer.Integer'

If it did, then IMO both 1 and 5 (in Z/12Z) could be considered correct
values of gcd(mod(5,12),12), because they are both generate the same
ideal in Z/12Z.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: gcd regression (?)

[Keshav Kini]

D. S. McNeil dsm...@gmail.com writes:
 I think this is a known issue: see

 http://groups.google.com/d/topic/sage-support/_LvmAECVeDg/discussion

Ah, I missed that too - ignore my previous post. Thanks :)

-Keshav

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[sage-combinat-devel] Re: how do you tell what branch you are in?

[Keshav Kini]

Nicolas M. Thiery
nicolas.thi...@u-psud.fr writes:
 On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 02:22:21PM -0800, Keshav Kini wrote:
 A few months ago I asked on sage-devel whether anyone is using Sage
 branches anymore instead of patch queues, and the consensus seemed to
 be that Sage branches are an ancient relic and nobody uses them
 anymore except the patchbot. I guess that is not the case after all
 since several people in this thread seem to be using them...

 Oops, sorry I missed this thread. Yes, with the current Sage-Combinat
 workflow we still use branches (people typically want their own
 patch queue beside the one from Sage-Combinat). But that might not be
 needed anymore with the new Sage workflow.

Wow, how time flies. I say a few months ago but it was actually more
than a year ago: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.mathematics.sage.devel/56131

Indeed, I hope this usage will become unnecessary with the new workflow.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: sage -t Help

[Keshav Kini]

Jeroen Demeyer jdeme...@cage.ugent.be writes:
 - set SAGE_ROOT in your ~/.bashrc (or whatever rc file for your shell)

Wait, do we still recommend this? I thought this was discouraged,
judging from the significant number of people who have had issues
starting sage on IRC and then found that unsetting $SAGE_ROOT made
everything work again...

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Shibboleth and Sage ?

[Keshav Kini]

Thierry Dumont tdum...@math.univ-lyon1.fr writes:
 Sometime ago, I devopped a small patch to do ldap authentification;
 this patch is not very beautiful, it can no more be used with
 nowaday's versions of the notebook

Well, if you are interested in LDAP, Robin Martinjak has been kindly
maintaining a pull request to add LDAP functionality to sagenb for
almost a year now: https://github.com/sagemath/sagenb/pull/73

It is just waiting for someone to review it who knows about LDAP. Maybe
if you know someone you can ask them to take a look :)

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Installing Sage 5.6

[Keshav Kini]

Jeroen Demeyer jdeme...@cage.ugent.be writes:
 On 2013-02-18 10:10, sea21 wrote:
 It's ldd (GNU libc) 2.3.3.
 That is an extremely old version, dating back to 2004 (!)

The Linux kernel version, 2.6.10, is also from 2004 :) I am interested
to know what distro this might be...

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Installing Sage 5.6

[Keshav Kini]

Keshav Kini keshav.k...@gmail.com writes:
 Jeroen Demeyer jdeme...@cage.ugent.be writes:
 On 2013-02-18 10:10, sea21 wrote:
 It's ldd (GNU libc) 2.3.3.
 That is an extremely old version, dating back to 2004 (!)

 The Linux kernel version, 2.6.10, is also from 2004 :) I am interested
 to know what distro this might be...

Actually, I guess it must be Fedora Core 2 (which is I guess what FC2smp
means in the kernel version suffix). That was indeed released in 2004.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Notebook localization

[Keshav Kini]

v...@ukr.net writes:
   Hello!
   I have just noticed (accidentally) that there is a Russian interface
 for Notebook. Well, that's great, but I didn't know somebody started
 the Notebook interface localization. Or have I missed the announcement?
   Anyway, I would like to take part in translation of Sage Notebook
 interface. I can translate into Russian and Ukrainian if needed.

   And by the way, why doesn't it let the user choose the language she
 wants? I mean, setting the interface language on per-user basis.

   Regards,
 Vladimir

 - 
  v...@ukr.net

I'm CCing the sage-notebook list. I think the interface localization
stuff has been around since some time in 2011. The Russian translation
itself was done by Konstantin Podshumok in March of 2012:
https://github.com/sagemath/sagenb/pull/45

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Spanish speaking reviewer needed

[Keshav Kini]

Hi,

If there are any Spanish speaking Sage devs who have a little time,
could you please review this Spanish translation of the sagenb UI?

https://github.com/sagemath/sagenb/pull/133

Thanks,
Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Egg-path error in installing Sage 5.6

[Keshav Kini]

Kwankyu Lee ekwan...@gmail.com writes:
 Hi Keshav,


 I was wondering what could be causing your problem but didn't
 comment
 because I didn't have a solution.


 I still don't know exactly what caused the problem, but I suspect the
 notebook files stored under ~/.sage was somehow out of date and was
 not compatible with the latest notebook package. 


 Could you elaborate on how you fixed
 it?


 So I just exported old notebook files, removed the old ~/.sage
 folder, made Sage to rebuild it, and imported the notebook sws files
 into the new notebook.
  

 What was your current directory, where was this .sage folder
 (are
 you referring to ~/.sage ?), where was your sage installation
 folder,


 I think these things were irrelevant with my problem.

 Thank you for attention.

Hmm. Well, that is very strange. Hopefully it doesn't happen again to
anyone else...

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Egg-path error in installing Sage 5.6

[Keshav Kini]

Kwankyu Lee ekwan...@gmail.com writes:
 I solved the problem by moving out the .sage folder. Thanks for all
 your attention!

I was wondering what could be causing your problem but didn't comment
because I didn't have a solution. Could you elaborate on how you fixed
it? What was your current directory, where was this .sage folder (are
you referring to ~/.sage ?), where was your sage installation folder,
etc.

Thanks,
Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: 32-bit testing

[Keshav Kini]

John Cremona john.crem...@gmail.com writes:
 32-bit machines are getting rarer, but still exist -- e.g. my 2008
 laptop!  Is there a 32-bit testing platform we can access at sagemath,
 skynet or similar?

There is arando, the 32-bit Ubuntu 12.04 buildbot running at Nanyang
Technological University and administered by Dmitrii Pasechnik (and
sometimes me, though I'm not there anymore).

Its processor is amd64, but the entire operating system and all binaries
are x86. Jeroen assures me that this is sufficient to be considered a
32-bit testing platform.

I used to run a patchbot instance ( http://patchbot.sagemath.org/ ) on
arando, but since last September or so it's been running into weird
problems. Something keeps killing the shell process that's running the
patchbot, and thus ending the patchbot session, so it doesn't stay up
for more than a day or so once I start it running.

I'm totally clueless as to why this is happening. I don't know if it's
something caused by Sage or whether it's just something weird in the
Ubuntu setup on the system. I seem to recall that it started happening
after I upgraded it to a certain Sage version (I don't remember which).
I guess I could go back and try to find the latest Sage version which I
successfully ran the patchbot on long-term, and see if this issue is
reproducible on that Sage version...

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Python 3 formatting

[Keshav Kini]

Robert Bradshaw rober...@math.washington.edu writes:
 (4) Perhaps I could configure things differently, but littering my
 directory with reject files when things don't apply cleanly vs. git's
 inline

  OLD
 ...
 
 ...
 NEW

 is so much easier to deal with (as well as being a lot safer in making
 sure nothing was omitted).

I agree that this is better, but IMHO a nicer solution than either of
these is using an actual three-way merge resolution tool such as kdiff3
or vimdiff or meld or whatever. You can do this with `git mergetool` and
a little configuration in ~/.gitconfig . Of course there's similar
functionality in Mercurial as well, though you need to do a little more
configuration to get it to work, in my experience.

I completely agree with the rest of your mail, though.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Should sage -b run sage -sync-build to get rid of outdated .py and .pyc files?

[Keshav Kini]

Dima Pasechnik dimp...@gmail.com writes:

 On 2013-01-31, Keshav Kini keshav.k...@gmail.com wrote:
 Dima Pasechnik dimp...@gmail.com writes:
 On 2013-01-23, Robert Bradshaw rober...@math.washington.edu wrote:
 On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:53 PM, tom d sdent...@gmail.com wrote:
 Another possible solution would be to change the error message one gets 
 on a
 failed import statement.  (I also lost hair on this issue a couple days
 ago.)  Right now it says 'have you tried %upgrade?' or something similar; 
 it
 could include the recommendation to -sync-build.

 +1 to this idea, -1 to making ./sage -b take longer.

 couldn't we just call sage -sync-build automatically, if importing
 fails? 
 (with a proper message, of course)
 Or is it going to mess things up in some cases?

 Isn't the problem that importing succeeds when it shouldn't? How can we
 detect that?
 well, I read that people don't want sage -sync-build to be called from
 sage -b, as it takes extra few seconds. I'm just saying OK, if this is
 the only issue, why can't we do this only if something goes wrong?

But an import statement succeeding when it shouldn't *is* something
going wrong - it is exactly the kind of problem which is caused by not
doing `sage --sync-build` after running `sage -b`.

By the way, another issue is that `sage --sync-build` is documented
neither in `sage --help` nor in `sage --advanced`. See
http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/14046 .

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Python 3 formatting

[Keshav Kini]

Harald Schilly harald.schi...@gmail.com writes:
 On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Jeroen Demeyer 
 jdeme...@cage.ugent.be wrote:

 On 2013-01-31 10:58, Volker Braun wrote:
  commit hook
 What's that?


 For an hg/git commit, a script is called prior to actually doing the
 commit. if its exit code is != 0, no commit happens.

And, of course, a nice message is printed explaining to the person who
tried to commit the reason why the commit did not succeed, and often
providing some easy command with which to fix the problem.

Since we are not using commits right now, only patches, this doesn't
make much sense currently. Once we switch to git we might discuss having
some commit hooks shipped with our git repository in the Sage tarball.
The user can of course disable them.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Should sage -b run sage -sync-build to get rid of outdated .py and .pyc files?

[Keshav Kini]

Robert Bradshaw rober...@math.washington.edu writes:
 On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Keshav Kini keshav.k...@gmail.com wrote:
 But an import statement succeeding when it shouldn't *is* something
 going wrong - it is exactly the kind of problem which is caused by not
 doing `sage --sync-build` after running `sage -b`.

 By the way, another issue is that `sage --sync-build` is documented
 neither in `sage --help` nor in `sage --advanced`. See
 http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/14046 .

 On this note, weren't we planning on moving to a more of a distutils
 develop model rather than having to have an extra build step and
 directory in the long run? (Of course a command would still be needed
 for re-compiling Cython code...)

Indeed. The trac ticket is here:
http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/12659

See also http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/13190 .

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Python 3 formatting

[Keshav Kini]

Travis Scrimshaw tsc...@ucdavis.edu writes:
 Hey everyone,
Should we be encouraging (or enforce) new code to be python 3
 compliant? In particular, not using removed syntax such as exceptions
 as `raise ExceptionType, args` or `` comparisons?

Encouraging, yes; enforcing, I'd say no. I don't think a Python 3
transition for Sage is even on the horizon at this point. That said,
there is plenty of old-style Python code in Sage which could at least
be updated to 2.7 standards anyway. That old exception raising syntax
you mentioned is one example. There are probably places where we could
make use of `with` clauses and are not. We should be using the
subprocess module instead of os.system (PEP 324). Etc

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Python 3 formatting

[Keshav Kini]

William Stein wst...@gmail.com writes:
 I remember adding code that used with to Sage back in I think 2008
 when working on generators for the coercion model.  We've been using
 with for a long time.

Sure. In general the newer pieces of code in Sage do tend to use more
modern Python than older pieces of code, as far as I've seen - it's not
like our code as a whole is stuck in the past or anything. But naturally
code that hasn't been touched for many years is apt to have old coding
styles.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Should sage -b run sage -sync-build to get rid of outdated .py and .pyc files?

[Keshav Kini]

Dima Pasechnik dimp...@gmail.com writes:
 On 2013-01-23, Robert Bradshaw rober...@math.washington.edu wrote:
 On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:53 PM, tom d sdent...@gmail.com wrote:
 Another possible solution would be to change the error message one gets on a
 failed import statement.  (I also lost hair on this issue a couple days
 ago.)  Right now it says 'have you tried %upgrade?' or something similar; it
 could include the recommendation to -sync-build.

 +1 to this idea, -1 to making ./sage -b take longer.

 couldn't we just call sage -sync-build automatically, if importing
 fails? 
 (with a proper message, of course)
 Or is it going to mess things up in some cases?

Isn't the problem that importing succeeds when it shouldn't? How can we
detect that?

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: git integration repository, please test

[Keshav Kini]

Dima Pasechnik dimp...@gmail.com writes:
 Expanding on http://wiki.sagemath.org/WorkflowSEP one would have

 sage_root/
 sage  # the binary
 Makefile  # top level Makefile
 (configure)   # perhaps, eventually
 ...   # other standard top level files (README, etc.)
 build/
 core/ # sage's build system/bootstrapping
 pkgs/ # install, patch, and metadata from spkgs
 maxima/
 pacakge_manager_file # emerge or whatever, would point
 to some upstream source, patch1.diff, etc.
 patch1.diff
 ...
 ...

 A single commit would remove create patch1.diff and modify
 pacakge_manager_file to use it, when patch1.diff is merged upstream,
 we would do another commit to point pacakge_manager_file to the newer
 upstream and remove patch1.diff. Here upstream is ideally an
 upstream-provided src tarball (though we might distribute it
 ourselves) and relating that to whatever revision control system they
 use is out of scope.

 This still looks like an ugly hack. Shouldn't  we rather use something like 
 [git-subtree] (https://github.com/apenwarr/git-subtree/) 
 to deal with upstream source?

IMO, no way. We should not store upstream source in our repository
because we should not ever modify upstream source, so there is no reason
to have it under our own version control. Any changes we make to the
upstream source should be done by making patches. This is even the
reigning guideline right now, to say nothing of future plans.

Rather than git-subtree, git-submodule might be appropriate, but
unfortunately it is rather opaque to git newbies, overkill for our
purposes, and assumes that submodules actually have version control
histories (GAP anyone?), not to mention that the way it is designed is
IMO very ugly (doesn't deal well with switching branches in the main
repo).

What Robert is proposing is exactly what has worked just fine in Portage
for many years :) And probably in BSD Ports for even longer (though I
don't know anything about BSD). All my build scripts, patches, etc. are
in a git repository at /usr/portage, with a .gitignore'd directory
/usr/portage/distfiles containing distribution files, i.e. mostly
upstream source tarballs. I don't find this an ugly hack at all - rather
I find it quite nice.

My 2¢.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: git integration repository, please test

[Keshav Kini]

Dima Pasechnik dimp...@gmail.com writes:

 On 2013-01-17, Robert Bradshaw rober...@math.washington.edu wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:17 PM, Dima Pasechnik dimp...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 2013-01-17, Robert Bradshaw rober...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Dima Pasechnik dimp...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 2013-01-16, Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com wrote:
 --=_Part_588_6290856.1358340327889
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

 I guess there are at least two different meanings of the Sage tarball 
 in
 this context. I was talking about the sum of all code checked into the 
 Sage
 repositories, which is what one would usually call the release. And the
 third party code is not going to be part of the git repo under the 
 current
 proposal.

 I don't see how this would be an improvement as far as 3rd party code 
 spkgs
 maintainance/updating is concerned. Are you saying it stays under the
 same ugly patchquilt model?
 Or everyone rolls his/her own spkg repos on bitbucket or github or
 whatever (as you do for libGAP)?

 Mind you, when I worked on the latest Maxima update (#13364), I had to do 
 git
 bisect on *Maxima* repo to debug *Sage*, and then apply the results of 
 this
 investigation to stripped of .git/ Maxima source tree, for which I did not
 have an exact mapping back to Maxima repo.
 It goes without saying that this is rather ad hoc, error-prone, etc etc.
 And then, when Sage patches (which are often experimental upstream's 
 patches)
 for the spkg are merged upstream, a similar
 error-prone manual labour toil, sweat, and tears will be needed...

 Expanding on http://wiki.sagemath.org/WorkflowSEP one would have

 sage_root/
 sage  # the binary
 Makefile  # top level Makefile
 (configure)   # perhaps, eventually
 ...   # other standard top level files (README, etc.)
 build/
 core/ # sage's build system/bootstrapping
 pkgs/ # install, patch, and metadata from spkgs
 maxima/
 pacakge_manager_file # emerge or whatever, would point
 to some upstream source, patch1.diff, etc.
 patch1.diff
 ...
 ...

 A single commit would remove create patch1.diff and modify
 pacakge_manager_file to use it, when patch1.diff is merged upstream,
 we would do another commit to point pacakge_manager_file to the newer
 upstream and remove patch1.diff. Here upstream is ideally an
 upstream-provided src tarball (though we might distribute it
 ourselves) and relating that to whatever revision control system they
 use is out of scope.

 This still looks like an ugly hack. Shouldn't  we rather use something like
 [git-subtree] (https://github.com/apenwarr/git-subtree/)
 to deal with upstream source?

 That would only work for upstream projects in git, and it requires
 importing the entire upstream into our repository. 

 No, not really. You can do git clone --depth 1 (well, assuming this
 works with git-subtree) for spkgs you only build, but not hack on.

`git clone --depth 1` is pretty useless, because your new clone can now
not interact sensibly with the upstream repo at all. You might just as
well copy the files into your repository and `git add` them...

 It would also dis-incentivize
 us to submit patches upstream.

 Why? It would make it super-easy, actually (as far as my limited
 understanding of git-subtree goes).

Because we'd need to make the patches solely for the purpose of
submitting them upstream. Right now we need to make the patch files in
order to get the program to run in Sage in the first place; submitting
them upstream involves just writing a short email and attaching the
already-existing patch.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Patch made from a previous version of sage

[Keshav Kini]

Kannappan Sampath kntri...@gmail.com writes:

 Hello friends, 

 I have the following question: The patch here:

 http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/10080

 seems to come from a previous version of the file for which it
 proposes some change. Now, apparently, I feel that some of the issues
 have been resolved, by  a new revision to that file. (I looked at the
 way documentation looks for this particular case...) 

 How is this situation usually handled? 

By setting the ticket milestone to sage-duplicate/invalid/wontfix and
the status to positive_review. Then the release manager will come along
and close the ticket.

But make sure that the issue really has been resolved before doing that,
of course :)

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: git integration repository, please test

[Keshav Kini]

Michael Orlitzky mich...@orlitzky.com writes:
 For the *really* messed-up packages, we would keep the ebuilds in an
 overlay and do whatever we want with them there. And over time,
 hopefully fix them and send those fixes upstream.

Well, this is pretty much what the sage-on-gentoo overlay does :)

http://github.com/cschwan/sage-on-gentoo

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: git integration repository, please test

[Keshav Kini]

kcrisman kcris...@gmail.com writes:
 On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:19:45 PM UTC-5, Michael Orlitzky
 wrote:

 On 01/15/2013 10:17 PM, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
  FreeBSD: pkg install subversion
  ...

 Just went insane for a second there =)


 Actually, we DO have a FreeBSD port, thanks to Stephen
 Montgomery-Smith, building on work of Peter Jeremy, which probably
 does indeed work in some similar fashion.

 http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/math/sage/ 

I think mjo was referring to how he seemed to think for a second that
Sage on FreeBSD is called subversion :P

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Evolve extension in hg: almost ready for use

[Keshav Kini]

Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso jord...@octave.org writes:
 Also, is there a specific feature of Evolve that would greatly
 benefit Sage's development?

 Evolve is directly targetting to replace MQ usage. For Sage users
 already used to MQ, they can use Evolve as a direct replacement for MQ
 without having to learn a whole other DVCS and a completely different
 way to work. There's a direct dictionary translating MQ usage to
 Evolve usage.

Just a note: one of our major goals for moving to git is to switch from
a patch-based to a commit-based development model. This of course
entails completely ditching the concept of patch queues.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Why does - (x 100) return -x -100 ?

[Keshav Kini]

Benjamin Jones benjaminfjo...@gmail.com writes:
 On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 10:53 AM, Keshav Kini keshav.k...@gmail.com wrote:
 Benjamin Jones benjaminfjo...@gmail.com writes:
 sage: y = var('y')
 sage: x * (y  0)
 x*y  0

 Just like applying the operator (x*_) over a list [ y, 0 ].

 Couldn't you apply the same logic to * as well? Now (a * b) * c
 becomes (a * c) * (b * c), which is obviously not what we want.

 Certainly it's nice to be able to map over things. I would think that
 there should be some actual syntax for this, though, rather than just
 implicitly distributing all operations over relational operators. As far
 as I can see, the only thing that's special here about relational
 operators as opposed to arithmetic operators is that we don't currently
 have a coherent way of resolving the application of other operators to
 relational expressions. I don't think that should mean that by default
 we just distribute.

 See also http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/7660#comment:8 .

 I agree that an explicit syntax for mapping over relations would be
 better than having it done implicitly. But, then again, it would be
 nice to  implicitly map over equality, there would be no confusion
 there.

I disagree that there would be no confusion, or even that it would be
nice to implicitly map arithmetic operations. I reproduce below the
comment I made on the trac ticket several months ago:

It doesn't seem at all reasonable to me to distribute multiplication
over a relation. When you distribute multiplication over addition, the
addition expression (a+b) lives in the same space as a and b
individually. This is not the case with (xy) and x and y.

There is no mathematical rationale for saying that (-1)*(xy) is -x  -y
or -x  -y or anything other than just (-1)*(xy). I'm sure many can
recall when they first learned basic algebra that their teacher was
careful to say we multiply both sides of the equation by c, not we
multiply the equation by c, just as he or she was careful to say we
multiply both the numerator and denominator of the fraction by c,
rather than the dangerous we multiply the fraction by c!

If we allow multiplication to distribute over xy as if it were a
two-coordinate vector, do we want other similarities with vector
arithmetic to come into play? Should (a+b)*(xy) be equal to a*(xy) +
b*(xy)? Now we have addition and presumably subtraction of relational
expressions. What is 0*(xy)? What is (xy) + (zy)? Should we attempt
to reverse inequalities to make them match up when adding them? Do we
then end up with (x+yy+z), or (y+zx+y)? Or, do we conclude that (zy)
is equal to (-1)*(-z-y), and so (xy) + (zy) == (xy) - (-z-y) ==
(x+z2y)? Going beyond vector-like arithmetic, what happens when you add
a scalar to a relational expression? What is (xy) + 3?

I think the most sensible answer to all the above questions is the
following: we should not perform arithmetic on relational expressions;
when asked to do so, we should return a purely formal expression.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Why does - (x 100) return -x -100 ?

[Keshav Kini]

Benjamin Jones benjaminfjo...@gmail.com writes:

 On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:32 PM, P Purkayastha ppu...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 On 12/18/2012 10:10 AM, Benjamin Jones wrote:

 if y  0 is true,
 is x*(y  0) true or false?


 Why is this kind of operation (+,-,*, etc) distributive over
 comparison operators? Is this distributive operation well defined
 in general, maybe according to some theory?



 If you think about the comparison operators as type constructors (for
 the SR type), it's useful for them to be functors. In other words,
 it's useful to be able to map over them, e.g. map the function that
 is multiplication by a constant element of SR over a comparison:

 sage: y = var('y')
 sage: x * (y  0)
 x*y  0

 Just like applying the operator (x*_) over a list [ y, 0 ].

Couldn't you apply the same logic to * as well? Now (a * b) * c
becomes (a * c) * (b * c), which is obviously not what we want.

Certainly it's nice to be able to map over things. I would think that
there should be some actual syntax for this, though, rather than just
implicitly distributing all operations over relational operators. As far
as I can see, the only thing that's special here about relational
operators as opposed to arithmetic operators is that we don't currently
have a coherent way of resolving the application of other operators to
relational expressions. I don't think that should mean that by default
we just distribute.

See also http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/7660#comment:8 .

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: hg.sagemath.org oddity

[Keshav Kini]

kcrisman kcris...@gmail.com writes:
 http://hg.sagemath.org/ works fine, except that the sage-root
 repository gives an error.  Based on the rest of that page, it looks
 like it should be root-main or just root anyway?   Anyway, if someone
 knows how to fix this, that would be great.

I posted about this a few weeks ago. Turns out the problem is that the
Mercurial version on boxen is too old. Also it's not clear to me how the
repositories there are updated. To copy from my conversation with Minh:

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 12:19 AM, Keshav Kini keshav.k...@gmail.com wrote:
 Looks like the problem is that the version of Mercurial on boxen is
 too old - the repository in ~sagemath/sage_install/sage-hg/sage-root
 is not readable by Mercurial versions older than 1.7, presumably
 because it was created with a version of Mercurial newer than or equal
 to 1.7. (We ran into this on trac #10594.)

 I can fix this temporarily but it would be a better idea to fix
 whatever script is putting these repositories here. Who's doing this?
 Is it part of Jeroen's release management scripts? In any case, while
 the other repos were updated a couple weeks ago, the sage-root one
 hasn't been updated since February. Maybe the same problem is
 occurring in the transfer script as well.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: why is email in sagenb?

[Keshav Kini]

William Stein wst...@gmail.com writes:

 Yes, unless it's needed by the notebook for some reason, in which case
 we have to have two copies, since the notebook is supposed to not
 depend on sage...

Note: Robin Martinjak recently submitted a pull request to sagenb
implementing email notifications for sagenb errors, which modifies
sagenb.notebook.sage_email : https://github.com/sagemath/sagenb/pull/120

-Keshav

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Re: [sage-devel] hg.sagemath.org server error

[Keshav Kini]

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 11:19 PM, Minh Nguyen mvngu.n...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Keshav,

 On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Keshav Kini keshav.k...@gmail.com wrote:
 The sage-root repo seemingly isn't being served correctly, as the
 following URL returns an HTTP 500:

 http://hg.sagemath.org/sage-root/

 To be honest with you, I have spent the last hour trying to understand
 this.  But I still don't know how to fix it.  If you can sudo as
 sagemath, then you should be able to cd to

 /home/sagemath/wiki/sage-hg/hg

 and have a poke around.

Looks like the problem is that the version of Mercurial on boxen is
too old - the repository in ~sagemath/sage_install/sage-hg/sage-root
is not readable by Mercurial versions older than 1.7, presumably
because it was created with a version of Mercurial newer than or equal
to 1.7. (We ran into this on trac #10594.)

I can fix this temporarily but it would be a better idea to fix
whatever script is putting these repositories here. Who's doing this?
Is it part of Jeroen's release management scripts? In any case, while
the other repos were updated a couple weeks ago, the sage-root one
hasn't been updated since February. Maybe the same problem is
occurring in the transfer script as well.

-Keshav

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[sage-combinat-devel] Re: combinat out again?

[Keshav Kini]

Anne Schilling a...@math.ucdavis.edu writes:
 Hi William,

 Since the machine has been down quite a bit and we bought it from the
 NSF grant, do you think it would be a good idea to ask for an exchange?

William sent a mail to the sagemath-users list saying that Dell will be
replacing a faulty (?) memory module in the combinat.math.washington.edu
machine, after which this will stop happening::

 It turns out that indeed combinat.math.washington.edu was down with a
 memory error again.  I've rebooted it.Dell will also be fixing it
 (by replacing the DIMM) this week, so this will stop happening.  This
 means some downtime (for combinat only) later this week (not yet
 scheduled).

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Can not run notebook on sage-5.5rc0

[Keshav Kini]

kcrisman kcris...@gmail.com writes:
 While mistyping this, I discovered that a lot of ticket do not
 exist.  E.g. http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/11044 and
 many, many others.  Why?  Presumably not because they are
 duplicates. 

Didn't we at some point have spam tickets that got outright deleted? I
don't remember whether it was recently enough for 11044 to be in that
time range, though.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: License issues if linking Mathematica and Sage

[Keshav Kini]

David Kirkby david.kir...@onetel.net writes:
 Sage

 http://www.sagemath.org/

 is an open-source mathematical package released under the GPL version
 2, or if the user wishes, any later version of the GPL. 

Well, according to William as of October 2011 in an email to me:

 The complete Sage distribution is GPLv3+. The core Sage library
 (written in Python and Cython) is GPLv2+. However, many of the
 components of Sage are GPLv3+.

I am unaware if this has changed.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] hg.sagemath.org server error

[Keshav Kini]

Hi,

The sage-root repo seemingly isn't being served correctly, as the
following URL returns an HTTP 500:

http://hg.sagemath.org/sage-root/

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Normalization of a vector

[Keshav Kini]

Kannappan Sampath kntri...@gmail.com writes:
 Here's a natural place where I can see this is helpful: 

 To carry out, Gauss-Jordan like row reductions, where you'd like the
 first non-zero entry in a row (the so-called pivot) to be 1, I think
 this is very helpful.

 So, I'd be **for** keeping this, perhaps in a different name, that
 would reflect this. Like `reduce(v)` or perhaps, `echelonize(v)` for
 instance. 

I vote for monicize() ;)

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Normalization of a vector

[Keshav Kini]

Kannappan Sampath kntri...@gmail.com writes:
 Perhaps, I should explain my rationale for the terms I chose, my
 first preference is `echelonize(v)`  (although I wrote it second)
 because, what the function returns amounts to its reduced row echelon
 form, if you think of it as 1 x n matrix. 

My rationale for monicize is the standard term from algebra, monic
polynomial [1], but maybe it's not so relevant here...

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monic_polynomial

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: How do you remove attachments that become irrelevant at some point from a trac ticket?

[Keshav Kini]

kcrisman kcris...@gmail.com writes:
 On Thursday, November 29, 2012 7:41:46 AM UTC-5, kannappan sampath
 wrote:

 Hello, 
 I wanted to ask the mailing list if there is a way to remove
 attachments that become irrelevant, either due to a completely
 new patch or a patch that coalesces all the patches into one,
 from  a trac ticket? 


 Only by people with admin privileges, I think, if that.  And
 sometimes we like to be able to see the history.  However, you can
 always attach a file with the same name, and use the check box to say
 it should replace the previous one. 

That only works if you're the one who uploaded the previous one, or if
you have admin privileges.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: What to do with research-y code.

[Keshav Kini]

William Stein wst...@gmail.com writes:
 On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 11:48 PM, Burcin Erocal bur...@erocal.org wrote:
Package dependencies for optional/experimental packages is beyond
the capabilities of the sage packaging system. Adding
sage -i package_name commands to spkg-install is a very ugly
hack.

 What's the situation with Pypi or any other Python packaging
 solutions.  Surely they provide dependencies?

Of course, but not all our SPKGs are on PyPI or even have anything to do
with Python at all. In any case, Burcin's solution of using Gentoo
Prefix is appealing to me because it uses an installation system with
managed backwards compatibility (EAPI versioning) which has been used by
very large numbers of people for more than a decade now, whereas the
various Python package management solutions seem to keep getting
deprecated and replaced every couple of years... I think you've run into
just such problems, as evidenced by a post on your Google+ account back
in July :)

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: What to do with research-y code.

[Keshav Kini]

Robert Bradshaw rober...@math.washington.edu writes:
 Another crazy idea: encourage uploading of unfinished code with
 optional nag reminders. I'd rather people upload code without tests
 and people start reviewing it than hold onto it until they get around
 to adding all the examples. Just having public todo lists can be
 motivation to finish something up, or bug someone about finishing
 something up.

+1, I don't think this is a crazy idea at all. In fact I think it's a
very good idea.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: What to do with research-y code.

[Keshav Kini]

Robert Bradshaw rober...@gmail.com writes:
 On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 9:46 AM, kcrisman kcris...@gmail.com wrote:
 In sage-combinat,
 again, the queue seems to solve this, and there is a lot of impressive
 teamwork.

 Yes, and I think it'd be really interesting to get one of them to
 understand outline their goals (and how well the queue meets them)
 rather than just their methods. Then we can either come up with
 something even better, or make sure we support queues really well :).

Florent wrote this back in June:
https://github.com/kini/sage-workflow/blob/master/combinat.rst

It contains a bit about the Combinat team's goals.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Disable the trailing whitespace patchbot plugin

[Keshav Kini]

Robert Bradshaw rober...@math.washington.edu writes:
 On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Jason Grout
 jason-s...@creativetrax.com wrote:
 On 11/24/12 7:41 PM, Robert Bradshaw wrote:

 Cool. (The doable part, not the unholy mess part :-). If that's the
 case, how about we simply ignore the issue at the moment, remove it
 all in the git conversion, and document + enforce a no-whitespace
 policy as as part of the new development workflow. If there are no
 objections, I'll write this up in #11956 as a new official policy.


 What if the line is entirely whitespace?  I think it's rather nice to have
 the empty line below be padded with 4 spaces so I can just move my cursor to
 the empty line and start typing and things are automatically on the right
 indentation level:

 for i in range(10):
 some long calculation

 some other long calculation

 I'd say this is not worth an exception--it's much easier to disallow
 all whitespace (and to use tools that strip all whitespace). Any sane
 editor will tab to the right place.

+1, I don't think this is worth an exception either.

Semi-relevant anecdote: many years ago I used to use whitespace in
C-like languages the same way Jason does. (Actually I used tab
characters because they more semantically indicated scope, I thought.)
I could never understand why people wanted to have blank lines within an
inner scope not have the same indentation as other lines within the
inner scope, and instead have the same indentation as the outermost
scope (i.e. no trailing whitespace on the line).

I changed my mind when someone explained it this way (paraphrased):
Don't think of text the way it appears on a page. Think of text as a
stream of characters which is separated into 'lines' by the newline
character at the end of each line; and furthermore think of groups of
'lines' as being separated into 'paragraphs' by the zero-length line at
the end of each paragraph. This is similar to binary formats for storing
variable-width data, in which you might delimit each field by a null
byte, and each record by a double null byte. (Mercurial's bundle format
does exactly this, by the way! [1] [2])

Now, if you discard the paragraph information and look only at the
lines, empty lines disappear entirely from your program (because they're
just delimiters between paragraphs), and the indentation level smoothly
moves up and down as you expect. But if you have empty lines that
still contain some whitespace, they are considered as meaningful lines
within a paragraph, rather than as paragraph delimiters, which is
probably not what you want.

Of course, this is all purely subjective, but I found it an appealing
intuition as to why indent empty lines was not the prevailing
practice, after which I stopped doing it :)

[1] http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/WireProtocol#Changegroup_Format
[2] 
http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/attachment/ticket/3052/trac_3052-textify.patch

 Here's an example of code that changes behavior when there is
 trailing whitespace:

 print 1 + \
 2

 If there is a space after the \, it's a syntax error.  If there is no space,
 it prints 3.

 I'm not interpreting how this is good or bad, but just pointing out that
 deleting whitespace can change code behavior, particularly in the case of
 continuation characters.

 Interesting example. I don't think trailing whitespace is ever required 
 though.

Yes, definitely an interesting example, and a good reason why you should
always use implicit line continuation and not explicit line continuation
in Python, as detailed in PEP 8 :) [3]

By the way, Python never requires trailing whitespace, but the Markdown
language popular on Github, Reddit, etc. for comment formatting does
[4]::

The implication of the “one or more consecutive lines of text” rule
is that Markdown supports “hard-wrapped” text paragraphs. This
differs significantly from most other text-to-HTML formatters
(including Movable Type’s “Convert Line Breaks” option) which
translate every line break character in a paragraph into a br /
tag.

When you do want to insert a br / break tag using Markdown, you
end a line with two or more spaces, then type return.

So ::

a  
b

becomes abrb, while ::

a
b

becomes a b. Two or more trailing spaces on a line are converted into
a br tag, and one or zero are not. Ridiculous, isn't it? :) I'm glad
we use reStructuredText! (To GitHub's credit, they've removed this
obtuse language construct and just always convert line breaks into br
tags.)

[3] http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#indentation
[4] http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax#p

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: which letter to use for the universal cyclotomics ?

[Keshav Kini]

Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com writes:
 But again that does nothing to help discover the functionality. When
 I first used cyclotomics in Sage I tried E(3) first, but clearly that
 didn't work.

Well, you said yourself that if you're not a GAP user then E() will not
be intuitive. What percentage of Sage users are previous GAP users and
will try E(3) first? Actually, even if someone is a GAP user, will they
expect functions to be the same in Sage as they are in GAP? A bunch of
things aren't.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Disable the trailing whitespace patchbot plugin

[Keshav Kini]

Ivan Andrus darthand...@gmail.com writes:

 On Nov 25, 2012, at 1:01 AM, Keshav Kini keshav.k...@gmail.com wrote:

 Travis Scrimshaw tsc...@ucdavis.edu writes:
 Hey,
   I'd be happy with A), but perhaps we could have an option D) where
 when we upload (or merge) patches into sage, we automatically strip
 all whitespace in the patch file?
 
 This will get nasty once we stop using patch files and switch to git.
 Commits should not be invisibly edited after they've been made and
 approved for some value of approved.


 But we can have a commit hook, right?  It could just refuse to commit with 
 trailing whitespace.  Or maybe it could even offer to fix it for you.

Yup. (The latter would of course be better.) But it would be on
everyone's local sage install, not on trac or in the release management
scripts :)

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Disable the trailing whitespace patchbot plugin

[Keshav Kini]

Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com writes:

 On Sunday, November 25, 2012 7:30:21 PM UTC, Keshav Kini wrote:

 Yup. (The latter would of course be better.) But it would be on
 everyone's local sage install, not on trac or in the release
 management
 scripts :) 


 Well it better be a hook in the local repo, its very annoying to
 commit and then have the patchbot complain a few days later.

Travis was suggesting that the release management scripts actually fix
the whitespace serverside during the process of releasing a new version
of Sage, not just have the patchbot complain about it. I'm just saying
that it needs to be done at the source of the commit, not in post-processing.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Disable the trailing whitespace patchbot plugin

[Keshav Kini]

Travis Scrimshaw tsc...@ucdavis.edu writes:
 Hey,
I'd be happy with A), but perhaps we could have an option D) where
 when we upload (or merge) patches into sage, we automatically strip
 all whitespace in the patch file?

This will get nasty once we stop using patch files and switch to git.
Commits should not be invisibly edited after they've been made and
approved for some value of approved.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Disable the trailing whitespace patchbot plugin

[Keshav Kini]

Ivan Andrus darthand...@gmail.com writes:
 I disagree.  Perhaps I am alone in this, but I often (used to) move
 to the end of the line, go back a few characters (to get inside
 parenthesis or something), and start typing.  If there is trailing
 whitespace that I didn't know about I would be extremely annoyed
 because all my typing was in the wrong place.  That's why I now show
 all trailing whitespace in my editor and have a draconian
 kill-all-trailing-whitespace-on-save policy.  It has caused very few
 problems for me.  I just have to remember to kill any hunks with
 whitespace only changes.

 For those reasons I would love if we just got rid of trailing
 whitespace everywhere.  Unfortunately, as you have mentioned,
 changing trailing whitespace causes hg/git to think that the line has
 changed thereby messing up blame etc.  If there was a way to remove
 all whitespace from every revision ever when we change over to git, I
 think that would be awesome.  I have no idea how much work it would
 be though, and there's always the slight chance you might break
 something that way.

That's definitely doable. I need to refactor my repository
conversion/merging script to make it more extensible for stuff like
this. Right now it's an unholy mess of bash code...

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: upgrading sage while working on patches

[Keshav Kini]

Charles Bouillaguet charles.bouillag...@gmail.com writes:
 Hi all,

 I just tried to upgrade from 5.4 to 5.4.1, and it worked.

 However, the upgrade process interacts bizarrely with mercurial's
 patch queue. I had a non-empty patch queue, and applied the upgrade.
 But now, all the upgraded files appear as uncommitted local changes,
 and I can't really use the queue anymore. I can potentially break a
 lot of stuff by doing hg revert --all.

 It would probably be safer to check if there are local change to the sage 
 library repos before applying the upgrade, and the upgrade process should 
 complain if it is the case…

I agree - you shouldn't upgrade with a patch queue in place. IMHO
upgrading Sage should blow away any code changes you've hacked into your
copy of Sage (with an appropriate warning beforehand, of course), and
once you've upgraded, you should have a clean copy of Sage. I think
that's typically what people would expect from the installer of any
other piece of software, or from a package manager's upgrade command.

What the upgrade process actually tries to do, though, is *merge* your
local changes with the new version you're upgrading to. You can see in
the installers for the main Sage SPKGs that `hg merge` is literally
called during the installation process...

But as far as I can tell, the code for these upgrade semantics was
written before the Sage developer community collectively discovered
queues, back when people were still using `hg commit` and `sage -clone`,
which nobody uses anymore (at least according to a straw poll on
sage-devel some months ago, as I recall). So the current behavior seems
to be to just break / interact bizarrely, as you put it, which is
obviously not ideal.

See also http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/10988 . I made it not
with an eye to preventing this behavior with patch queues, but rather to
make it possible to upgrade from one development version to another
without the weird merge errors the current upgrading semantics produce.
I never actually got around to doing anything about it in the end,
partially because this problem ought to go away once we do the planned
workflow revamp / switch to git.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Disable the trailing whitespace patchbot plugin

[Keshav Kini]

Robert Bradshaw rober...@math.washington.edu writes:
 On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com wrote:
 b) misguides people writing patches into making unnecessary whitespace
 changes (trailing whitespace is bad, hence I'll take it out everywhere)

 Its confusing and slows us down with no real benefit.

 This is a fair point. From what I remember, the general consensus was
 to discourage trailing whitespace, but not make sweeping changes. The
 plugin lets people know it's there at least.

 If people care enough about trailing whitespace then we should
 - first formulate a policy,
 - then fix the sage library to conform, and
 - then implement commit hooks that ensure it
 - and only then have the patchbot verify trailing whitespace.

 Anyone want to go first in formulating a policy? FWIW, I don't thing
 fixing the library will actually be that painful, as it's easy to
 automatically rebase patches to work (simply strip trailing whitespace
 for deleted/unchanged lines in the patch file).

There's a ticket for this, by the way -
http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/11956

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Indexing of symbolic expressions

[Keshav Kini]

Jason Grout jason-s...@creativetrax.com writes:
 On 11/5/12 7:40 PM, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
 I didn't realize foo[1,2] would pass the tuple (1,2) to __getitem__
 until the very end, so it would make sense to go back and replace the
 function calls with indexing.

 I think the only thing we'd lose is a() - 'a', and that isn't a big
 deal (it also isn't technically part of the sequence).

 What about a[None] returning a?  That's a little awkward, I guess.

Well, foo[1] calls foo.__getitem__(1), and foo[1,2] calls
foo.__getitem__((1,2)); if foo[] were a valid syntax, and we considered
individual values to be equivalent to 1-tuples (which technically they
are not, in Python), then foo[] should call foo.__getitem__(()) (i.e.
pass the empty tuple). foo[] is not a valid syntax, and foo[None] will
call foo.__getitem__(None), but foo[()] will call foo.__getitem__(()),
so maybe foo[()] is what you're looking for? :)

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Line continuations in doctests, changing files in sage/tests

[Keshav Kini]

David Roe roed.m...@gmail.com writes:

 Hi everyone,
 I'm working on #12415 and am revising the methods for continuing
 lines.  Currently you can continue a line with the standard python
 ..., which looks good in standard Python doctests since it has the
 same length as , but doesn't look at nice in Sage.  After #12415
 the doctesting code will replace :  with ... before passing
 it on to Python's doctest module.

 Sage currently treats a backslash at the end of the line as a
 continuation character which is nonstandard but allows us to write
 large integers that span multiple lines.  For example:

 sage: n = 740375634795617128280467960974295731425931\
 : 9231289084936232638972765034028266276891996419625117\
 : 8439958943305021275853701189680982867331732731089309\
 : 0055250511687706329907239638078671008609696253793465\
 : 0563796359

 1.  Are there any objections to continuing to allow this backslash
 notation?

No objection.

 2.  Are there any opinions on whether we should change the format
 some files in sage/tests to use :  rather than ... for line
 continuations?  The ... continuations will continue to work so
 doctests pass even without this change, but it would make the
 formatting of the tests more readable.  On the other hand I know that
 many of the tests come from published books and there's value in
 staying exactly the same as the book.

Yes, please change this! The first trac ticket I opened, #10458, was
about changing this :)

 The new doctesting code at #12415 is almost done.  Over the past week
 I fixed a bunch of issues and there's only one remaining that I'm
 aware of: a segfault that occurs if test/interrupt.pyx is tested, but
 only if it's not the first file being tested.  Help debugging from
 someone who's more versed in Sage's signal handling would be welcome.
 David
 http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/12415

Bravo! Here's hoping it gets in soon.

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: Ascii Output

[Keshav Kini]

David Roe roed.m...@gmail.com writes:
 Maxima will use ascii-art to print expressions (http://
 www.sagemath.org/doc/reference/sage/interfaces/maxima.html), but it
 will just leave sqrt as sqrt.  I don't know a way to get an ascii art
 representation for sqrt.
 David

Sympy does this::

sage: from sympy import sympify, pprint
sage: pprint(sympify(sqrt(3)))
  ⎽⎽⎽
╲╱ 3 

-Keshav

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[sage-devel] Re: ARM box?

[Keshav Kini]

Christopher Swenson ch...@caswenson.com writes:

 Raspberry Pi?

No, a Trim-Slice H250:

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.mathematics.sage.devel/58670/focus=58749

-Keshav


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[sage-devel] Re: CTRL-C crashes the notebook in 5.3

[Keshav Kini]

Daniel Smertnig daniel.smert...@gmail.com writes:
 AFAIK the only reason 5.3 shipped with pyOpenSSL 0.12 was that 0.13
 has problem with older OpenSSL versions (0.9.8f or something). This
 is not an issue on Ubuntu, so pyOpenSSL 0.13 should be safe to use.
 Of course, if you don't upgrade, the SSL notebook will not work out
 of the box (but I think this will be similar in Sage 5.4).

Yes, the only reason 5.3 shipped with pyOpenSSL 0.12 rather than 0.13 is
because of the issue you stated - 0.13 failed to build on one of our
buildbots which had an old OpenSSL version.

5.4 will not include pyOpenSSL at all, though. We have made sagenb not
depend on pyOpenSSL anymore. If you still want to install it, `sage -i
pyOpenSSL` will download and install an SPKG of pyOpenSSL 0.13, patched
to support old versions of OpenSSL. This should work on older versions
of Sage as well, I believe.

-Keshav


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[sage-devel] Re: Sage 5.2 fails to build

[Keshav Kini]

P Purkayastha ppu...@gmail.com writes:
 https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/sage-devel/q9_Mn3f467g

Note that this will no longer be necessary in 5.4 once #13385 gets in.

-Keshav


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[sage-devel] Re: Need developer account on OSX 10.4 PPC (or remove from supported platforms)

[Keshav Kini]

Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com writes:

 I was hoping for something more reliable than a one-time ssh tunnel.

Our 32-bit Ubuntu 12.04 buildbot, arando, is set up via ssh tunnels. On
boot I log in and run a script which keeps up a reverse tunnel to
sage.math, so you can generally ssh to arando from sage.math by
connecting to localhost, even though arando is not directly visible
outside the local intranet here.

-Keshav


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[sage-devel] Re: sign of permutations

[Keshav Kini]

Kwankyu Lee ekwan...@gmail.com writes:
 Signature means to me a hand-written name.

Well, there are other valid mathematical or CS meanings to signature.
I agree that this one should be sign, though.

-Keshav


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[sage-devel] Re: Need developer account on OSX 10.4 PPC (or remove from supported platforms)

[Keshav Kini]

Georg S. Weber georgswe...@googlemail.com writes:
 On Sunday, 2 September 2012 12:50:22 UTC+2, Volker Braun wrote:

 Something in our OSX 10.4 build uses the reference blas instead
 of the accelerate framework. See http://trac.sagemath.org/10508
 for some heroic efforts by Karl-Dieter to debug this by word of
 mouth, but thats just not sustainable. We either need shell
 access for Sage developers to a OSX 10.4 machine or remove it
 from the first-tier supported platforms.


  Hi Volker,

 would access to an OS X 10.4 *Intel* (Core2Duo CPU) system do? That
 would not be as problematic (and certainly much faster ...) as the
 PowerPC system. Maybe we should discuss any details offline.

I think bsd.math.washington.edu is OS X 10.4 Intel, and some Sage
developers already have access to that.

-Keshav


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[sage-devel] Re: How do I specify location of openssl headers?

[Keshav Kini]

David Kirkby david.kir...@onetel.net writes:
 On 2 September 2012 01:08, John H Palmieri jhpalmier...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Saturday, September 1, 2012 3:22:21 PM UTC-7, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:

 I'm trying to build Sage on Solaris 10 (March 2005 edition), which has
 worked many times before.

 I should have said this was SPARC.


 First, I don't know the answer to your question: how to specify the location
 of these headers. However:

 1. The dependency on OpenSSL should go away soon -- see trac tickets #13121
 and #13385.

 Sort of good. (I'm not sure about the GPL aspect of this), but many
 systems will not have this by default.

We're making the dependency on OpenSSL go away by not using OpenSSL
anymore, not by packaging anything. I assume this can only cause us to
break GPL less than we currently are (if we currently are).

-Keshav


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[sage-devel] Re: creating a local patch

[Keshav Kini]

Julien Puydt julien.pu...@laposte.net writes:
 Le 31/08/2012 00:19, Robert Bradshaw a écrit :
 On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 12:17 PM, David Roeroed.m...@gmail.com  wrote:
 What in particular was bothersome about github?

 Issue-tracking in particular is sub-par on github (though I've heard
 they've been working on this), and having to both is a pain. There's
 also the question of logging/preserving the development history.

 For a one-tree mercurial project, preserving the development history
 is trivial (ask mercurial to git conversion to any web search
 engine). For something like sage where each spkg is it's own project
 tree, that is much much less so.

See http://github.com/kini/sage-workflow for some work on this. I wrote
a bash script which converts all of Sage's 90+ Mercurial repos into a
single git repository with a new directory structure.

-Keshav


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[sage-devel] Re: creating a local patch

[Keshav Kini]

Jason Grout jason-s...@creativetrax.com writes:
 On 8/30/12 1:10 PM, Julien Puydt wrote:
 Le 30/08/2012 19:51, Jason Grout a écrit :
 If/when we move to github or to bitbucket or something, where people can
 easily push their own branches, it will be much more natural to push
 your in-progress code up and collaborate.

 *IF* !?

 Progress seems to have stalled, and at least considering github, there

We're not going to use github as a development platform, since we tried
it out in March and William didn't like it. We will be switching to git
(eventually), but development will continue to be on trac. There might
be a mirror of the repo on github.

-Keshav


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[sage-devel] Re: Proposal: Remove GNUTLS from Sage.

[Keshav Kini]

fero l...@befair.it writes:
 IMHO gnutls should be removed from SAGE if it is just used for
 notebook secure=True to provide https connection,
 because this argument could be relegated to the deployment
 enivronment which should be in care of sysadmins that deploy
 SAGE notebook somewhere.

See trac #13392 - http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/13392

-Keshav


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[sage-combinat-devel] Re: Sage compared to LiE

[Keshav Kini]

John H Palmieri jhpalmier...@gmail.com
writes:
 Anyway, I just tried it out. The spkg-install file relies on the GNU
 version of 'mv', so it doesn't install on my mac without this change:

 diff --git a/spkg-install b/spkg-install
 --- a/spkg-install
 +++ b/spkg-install
 @@ -25,5 +25,5 @@ cd ..
  sed -i -e s'$PWD/src'$SAGE_LOCAL/lib/LiE' src/lie
  rm -rf $SAGE_LOCAL/lib/lie # clean up old versions
  rm -rf $SAGE_LOCAL/bin/lie $SAGE_LOCAL/lib/LiE
 -mv src/lie -t $SAGE_LOCAL/bin/
 -mv src/ -T $SAGE_LOCAL/lib/LiE
 +mv src/lie $SAGE_LOCAL/bin/
 +mv src/ $SAGE_LOCAL/lib/LiE

 But then it seems to work okay. It probably installs without problems
 on a linux system.

Whoops, that's my fault. I rewrote that stuff a couple months ago.
Fixing it is #13389: http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/13389

-Keshav


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[sage-devel] Re: Proposal: Remove GNUTLS from Sage.

[Keshav Kini]

Keshav Kini keshav.k...@gmail.com writes:
 I made this #13385 - http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/13385

There's now also a pull request on github for removing the pyOpenSSL
dependency from sagenb: https://github.com/sagemath/sagenb/pull/95

Anyone want to review it real quick? +22/-6 diff.

-Keshav


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