[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
On Apr 14, 11:56 pm, mabshoff mabsh...@googlemail.com wrote:
On Apr 13, 6:51 am, William Stein wst...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 3:55 AM, gerhard ge01...@yahoo.de wrote:
just to get back to the original question:
did 'inserting a usepackage{}' command ever get resolved?
No. Somebody should at least create a trac ticket.
I don't think anybody did, so here it
is:http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/5791
Cheers,
Michael
I have a patch for this now; please try it out.
John
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[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
On Sat, 11 Apr 2009 at 11:46PM -0700, Bill Hart wrote: Is there anyone else reading the thread who thinks they might be interested? Any reasons why this is a really bad idea? I'm a bit late to this party, but I wanted to say that I'm definitely interested in this idea. It reminds me of a Sage-specific version of the old Journal of Online Mathematics (http://joma.org), which got folded into the MAA's general online stuff. Dan -- --- Dan Drake dr...@kaist.edu - KAIST Department of Mathematical Sciences --- http://mathsci.kaist.ac.kr/~drake signature.asc Description: Digital signature
[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
On Apr 13, 6:51 am, William Stein wst...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 3:55 AM, gerhard ge01...@yahoo.de wrote:
just to get back to the original question:
did 'inserting a usepackage{}' command ever get resolved?
No. Somebody should at least create a trac ticket.
I don't think anybody did, so here it is:
http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/5791
Cheers,
Michael
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[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
just to get back to the original question:
did 'inserting a usepackage{}' command ever get resolved?
It would be nice to be able to do this from the worksheet,
rather than modifying sage code.
I also wonder if packages like tikz could be made to work?
-gerhard
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[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 3:55 AM, gerhard ge01...@yahoo.de wrote:
just to get back to the original question:
did 'inserting a usepackage{}' command ever get resolved?
No. Somebody should at least create a trac ticket.
It would be nice to be able to do this from the worksheet,
rather than modifying sage code.
Yep.
I also wonder if packages like tikz could be made to work?
Certainly if the above feature were added.
-gerhard
--
William Stein
Associate Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org
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[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
Bill Hart wrote: Hold that thought Rob. I'm not joking around. If you have been a significant contributor to this sort of thing, you sound like exactly the sort of person to have contributing to and working on such an enterprise. This is so easy to get going it isn't funny. We could simply start with a website which collects Sage Notebook expositions and surveys in one place. When there are sufficiently high quality articles, we could start sending the best articles to be formally refereed, etc. and then just let the whole thing grow organically from there. I want to ask around and see what people think of the idea, and maybe start a separate thread for it, and just see what feedback there is. If the idea is generally received positively, I think I am just going to do it. If I do decide to go ahead with it, would you be interested in being involved? I will be starting a tenure-track position at a private liberal arts college this fall that takes the broad view of research. They told me that the main criteria for judging research is peer-review. I think having a journal like this (when it grows to the peer-reviewed stage) will help me greatly in being able to spend time on Sage (i.e., there is no question of academic credit for it). So as another person in your situation (i.e., wanting to get academic credit for Sage work), I wholeheartedly applaud this! I'm undoubtedly too junior to count as one of your distinguished mathematician editors, but at least count me on board as a referee! Somewhere else, someone mentioned paid subscriptions. I would really, really encourage the articles to be open-access (i.e., no subscription charges for any electronic material). We could produce a paper version for money, sort of like the Electronic Journal of Linear Algebra, which is a respected linear algebra journal, or the Electronic Journal of Combinatorics, if we needed to raise money, but my guess is that it wouldn't raise very much anyway. Jason -- Jason Grout --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Jason Grout jason-s...@creativetrax.com wrote: Bill Hart wrote: Hold that thought Rob. I'm not joking around. If you have been a significant contributor to this sort of thing, you sound like exactly the sort of person to have contributing to and working on such an enterprise. This is so easy to get going it isn't funny. We could simply start with a website which collects Sage Notebook expositions and surveys in one place. When there are sufficiently high quality articles, we could start sending the best articles to be formally refereed, etc. and then just let the whole thing grow organically from there. I want to ask around and see what people think of the idea, and maybe start a separate thread for it, and just see what feedback there is. If the idea is generally received positively, I think I am just going to do it. If I do decide to go ahead with it, would you be interested in being involved? I will be starting a tenure-track position at a private liberal arts college this fall that takes the broad view of research. They told me that the main criteria for judging research is peer-review. I think having a journal like this (when it grows to the peer-reviewed stage) will help me greatly in being able to spend time on Sage (i.e., there is no question of academic credit for it). So as another person in your situation (i.e., wanting to get academic credit for Sage work), I wholeheartedly applaud this! I'm undoubtedly too junior to count as one of your distinguished mathematician editors, but at least count me on board as a referee! Somewhere else, someone mentioned paid subscriptions. I would really, really encourage the articles to be open-access (i.e., no subscription charges for any electronic material). We could produce a paper version for money, sort of like the Electronic Journal of Linear Algebra, which is a respected linear algebra journal, or the Electronic Journal of Combinatorics, if we needed to raise money, but my guess is that it wouldn't raise very much anyway. +1 -- I have to add that I will not be involved personally unless the articles are open access -- no subscription charges at all for any electronic material. There are very very few journals like this, but any journal I'm involved with will be.I've already had several journals request that I serve on their editorial board and turned them down because they were not open access. -- William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
Hi Bill, Well, I really was just joking around about the distinguished bit. ;-) You've got some great points. Maintaining version x.y.z of the necessary software is a very interesting idea, though I'd guess maybe at some point the lifetime of hardware might end up being a limiting factor? I agree 100% with your thoughts about the absence of page limits. No dead-tree publisher would touch my open-source linear algebra textbook which now runs to about 850-900 full-size pages, but is also available as PDFs or web pages. But readers (students) are forever telling me how much they appreciate having every last detail included if they feel the need to read/study something that closely. Where do I submit my teaching expositions? ;-) Rob --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
Hold that thought Rob. I'm not joking around. If you have been a significant contributor to this sort of thing, you sound like exactly the sort of person to have contributing to and working on such an enterprise. This is so easy to get going it isn't funny. We could simply start with a website which collects Sage Notebook expositions and surveys in one place. When there are sufficiently high quality articles, we could start sending the best articles to be formally refereed, etc. and then just let the whole thing grow organically from there. I want to ask around and see what people think of the idea, and maybe start a separate thread for it, and just see what feedback there is. If the idea is generally received positively, I think I am just going to do it. If I do decide to go ahead with it, would you be interested in being involved? Is there anyone else reading the thread who thinks they might be interested? Any reasons why this is a really bad idea? Bill. On 12 Apr, 07:24, Rob Beezer goo...@beezer.cotse.net wrote: Hi Bill, Well, I really was just joking around about the distinguished bit. ;-) You've got some great points. Maintaining version x.y.z of the necessary software is a very interesting idea, though I'd guess maybe at some point the lifetime of hardware might end up being a limiting factor? I agree 100% with your thoughts about the absence of page limits. No dead-tree publisher would touch my open-source linear algebra textbook which now runs to about 850-900 full-size pages, but is also available as PDFs or web pages. But readers (students) are forever telling me how much they appreciate having every last detail included if they feel the need to read/study something that closely. Where do I submit my teaching expositions? ;-) Rob --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
On 12 Apr, 07:24, Rob Beezer goo...@beezer.cotse.net wrote: SNIP Maintaining version x.y.z of the necessary software is a very interesting idea, though I'd guess maybe at some point the lifetime of hardware might end up being a limiting factor? If you think about computer games, there is now a project which emulates nearly all old computer systems and virtually any old game can be made to run on it regardless of what games machine it was written for!! People realise the importance of preserving the past. In 20 years time we'll be emulating the computers of today on our hardware. So it may be easy to run old versions of Sage. I say let the future take care of itself in that regard. All we need to think about is preserving the data. Sage is so perfect for this sort of thing, as it already includes old versions of major open source mathematical systems. One version of Sage automatically gives you version x.y.z of a whole lot of systems. Bill. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 11:46 PM, Bill Hart goodwillh...@googlemail.com wrote: Hold that thought Rob. I'm not joking around. If you have been a significant contributor to this sort of thing, you sound like exactly the sort of person to have contributing to and working on such an enterprise. This is so easy to get going it isn't funny. We could simply start with a website which collects Sage Notebook expositions and surveys in one place. When there are sufficiently high quality articles, we could start sending the best articles to be formally refereed, etc. and then just let the whole thing grow organically from there. I want to ask around and see what people think of the idea, and maybe start a separate thread for it, and just see what feedback there is. If the idea is generally received positively, I think I am just going to do it. If I do decide to go ahead with it, would you be interested in being involved? Is there anyone else reading the thread who thinks they might be interested? Any reasons why this is a really bad idea? I'm on board, and I'm fine with using jsage.org which I own (but don't use yet) for this. -- William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Bill Hart goodwillh...@googlemail.com wrote: I think JSage has a slightly different focus. Specifically: * It is tied to the Sage Python library * It is intended for people who have a complementary publication in a traditional journal * The code has to be included in Sage and be maintained there * The board of editors consists of Sage developers What I have in mind is different: * Not tied to implementations in Sage, but implementations accessible from the Sage Notebook * It would *be* a traditional journal (except that it is only available online) - no need for a separate written paper * The code could be in python, C or assembler, etc., in Sage, in Macaulay, Gap or Magma, etc. - the only requirement is it is accessible from the Sage Notebook * The board of editors would be distinguished mathematicians, not necessarily Sage developers (eventually there would be lots of people who are both) * The code examples, algorithm implementations need not run forever and a day in the latest Sage - they would be tied to a certain historical binary, e.g. Gap version x.y.z and Sage version k.l.m And I would be interested in: * Teaching expositions * Survey papers * Implementations of new algorithms * Theoretical papers (where some significant portion of it relies on computations which need verification or where computational examples are given to illustrate it) Both JSage and SagePapers could exist. I personally am not interested in JSage the way it is currently set up. It's an extremely valuable thing to have, just not any use to me personally. I don't think anybody is really interested in jsage the way it is currently set up. It hasn't gone anywhere. I like your idea since it seems more viable. William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
Excellent! I had hoped you would like it. It would probably be pointless if you weren't on board. Bill. On 12 Apr, 09:26, William Stein wst...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Bill Hart goodwillh...@googlemail.com wrote: I think JSage has a slightly different focus. Specifically: * It is tied to the Sage Python library * It is intended for people who have a complementary publication in a traditional journal * The code has to be included in Sage and be maintained there * The board of editors consists of Sage developers What I have in mind is different: * Not tied to implementations in Sage, but implementations accessible from the Sage Notebook * It would *be* a traditional journal (except that it is only available online) - no need for a separate written paper * The code could be in python, C or assembler, etc., in Sage, in Macaulay, Gap or Magma, etc. - the only requirement is it is accessible from the Sage Notebook * The board of editors would be distinguished mathematicians, not necessarily Sage developers (eventually there would be lots of people who are both) * The code examples, algorithm implementations need not run forever and a day in the latest Sage - they would be tied to a certain historical binary, e.g. Gap version x.y.z and Sage version k.l.m And I would be interested in: * Teaching expositions * Survey papers * Implementations of new algorithms * Theoretical papers (where some significant portion of it relies on computations which need verification or where computational examples are given to illustrate it) Both JSage and SagePapers could exist. I personally am not interested in JSage the way it is currently set up. It's an extremely valuable thing to have, just not any use to me personally. I don't think anybody is really interested in jsage the way it is currently set up. It hasn't gone anywhere. I like your idea since it seems more viable. William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
Hi Bill, If I do decide to go ahead with it, would you be interested in being involved? Definitely. Especially if it grows organically. nearly all old computer systems and virtually any old game can be made to run on it regardless of what games machine it was written for!! Yes, I'd had this thought as well. And you are right about Sage being a place where many different packages all work in coordination, so saving major releases of Sage would be a great way to save (in a usable fashion) a variety of tools. Sage as a living historical math software archive? Another argument for wrapping it all up into one big tarball without relying on external dependencies. I won't have good internet access for a few days, so don't interpret silence as disinterest. Rob --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Bill Hart goodwillh...@googlemail.com wrote: Is there a way to latex using amscd for commutative diagrams in the notebook? This would be an extremely useful feature. I guess one is limited by the latex features that are available in a webpage. One option is to at least use %latex mode in a cell, e.g., put %latex at the top of a cell. Then the rest of the cell is typeset in latex, and you can do a lot with that. I don't know if the amscd diagram package is imported by default though. It would be easy to make that possible though. William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
It doesn't seem to be imported by default. There's no other diagram package imported by default is there? I guess it would be even better to be able to do CD's outside cells, but would I be correct in thinking that is a limitation of jsMath, not the notebook? I'm really impressed by the notebook. It is working very well for me. I have one small suggestion. I know there is a %hide option to hide cells. It might be useful to be able to pass a parameter to %hide which specifies what text is displayed instead of %hide once the cell is hidden. Actually the evaluate below where the cell would be is also intrusive. But I don't see a way around that. One needs to be able to evaluate hidden cells. One possible solution might be for the evaluate to also be hidden when you evaluate a hidden cell. Then to reevaluate it, one would have to unhide the cell at which point the evaluate link would come back. Does that seem like a sensible solution? Or perhaps one could pass a parameter to hide for this too: %hide(Here is some text which will show up., hide_evaluate=true) Heh, even cooler would be to be able to pass parameters for font, style and colour to %hide. But that is probably a little over the top. %hide(Here is some text which will show up., font=helvetica, style=bold, size=18, color=#00, hide_evaluate=true) Perhaps %hide(h1My heading/h1, hide_evaluate=true) Dunno. I didn't think this through really. Someone might have a better idea. Bill. On 11 Apr, 23:50, William Stein wst...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Bill Hart goodwillh...@googlemail.com wrote: Is there a way to latex using amscd for commutative diagrams in the notebook? This would be an extremely useful feature. I guess one is limited by the latex features that are available in a webpage. One option is to at least use %latex mode in a cell, e.g., put %latex at the top of a cell. Then the rest of the cell is typeset in latex, and you can do a lot with that. I don't know if the amscd diagram package is imported by default though. It would be easy to make that possible though. William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
Ah, silly me. The evaluate goes away when another cell is selected. No need to worry about solving that problem. By the way, how do I use the %latex mode in a cell? It looks like it expects whatever you would have in a latex slide. But $2+2$ for example does not latex. Bill. On 12 Apr, 00:32, Bill Hart goodwillh...@googlemail.com wrote: It doesn't seem to be imported by default. There's no other diagram package imported by default is there? I guess it would be even better to be able to do CD's outside cells, but would I be correct in thinking that is a limitation of jsMath, not the notebook? I'm really impressed by the notebook. It is working very well for me. I have one small suggestion. I know there is a %hide option to hide cells. It might be useful to be able to pass a parameter to %hide which specifies what text is displayed instead of %hide once the cell is hidden. Actually the evaluate below where the cell would be is also intrusive. But I don't see a way around that. One needs to be able to evaluate hidden cells. One possible solution might be for the evaluate to also be hidden when you evaluate a hidden cell. Then to reevaluate it, one would have to unhide the cell at which point the evaluate link would come back. Does that seem like a sensible solution? Or perhaps one could pass a parameter to hide for this too: %hide(Here is some text which will show up., hide_evaluate=true) Heh, even cooler would be to be able to pass parameters for font, style and colour to %hide. But that is probably a little over the top. %hide(Here is some text which will show up., font=helvetica, style=bold, size=18, color=#00, hide_evaluate=true) Perhaps %hide(h1My heading/h1, hide_evaluate=true) Dunno. I didn't think this through really. Someone might have a better idea. Bill. On 11 Apr, 23:50, William Stein wst...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Bill Hart goodwillh...@googlemail.com wrote: Is there a way to latex using amscd for commutative diagrams in the notebook? This would be an extremely useful feature. I guess one is limited by the latex features that are available in a webpage. One option is to at least use %latex mode in a cell, e.g., put %latex at the top of a cell. Then the rest of the cell is typeset in latex, and you can do a lot with that. I don't know if the amscd diagram package is imported by default though. It would be easy to make that possible though. William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
Another suggestion. Has anyone thought about having SagePapers TM, which would be an arxiv of both technical mathematical papers and expository notes written entirely in Sage worksheets? This would be really cool, as it would allow the reader of the paper to play with the Sage/GP/Magma/whatever examples included in the paper. It would make refereeing computations easy too. Heh, when collaborating on worksheets is allowed, multi-author papers would be a breeze. It opens up so many possibilities. Bill. On 12 Apr, 00:41, Bill Hart goodwillh...@googlemail.com wrote: Ah, silly me. The evaluate goes away when another cell is selected. No need to worry about solving that problem. By the way, how do I use the %latex mode in a cell? It looks like it expects whatever you would have in a latex slide. But $2+2$ for example does not latex. Bill. On 12 Apr, 00:32, Bill Hart goodwillh...@googlemail.com wrote: It doesn't seem to be imported by default. There's no other diagram package imported by default is there? I guess it would be even better to be able to do CD's outside cells, but would I be correct in thinking that is a limitation of jsMath, not the notebook? I'm really impressed by the notebook. It is working very well for me. I have one small suggestion. I know there is a %hide option to hide cells. It might be useful to be able to pass a parameter to %hide which specifies what text is displayed instead of %hide once the cell is hidden. Actually the evaluate below where the cell would be is also intrusive. But I don't see a way around that. One needs to be able to evaluate hidden cells. One possible solution might be for the evaluate to also be hidden when you evaluate a hidden cell. Then to reevaluate it, one would have to unhide the cell at which point the evaluate link would come back. Does that seem like a sensible solution? Or perhaps one could pass a parameter to hide for this too: %hide(Here is some text which will show up., hide_evaluate=true) Heh, even cooler would be to be able to pass parameters for font, style and colour to %hide. But that is probably a little over the top. %hide(Here is some text which will show up., font=helvetica, style=bold, size=18, color=#00, hide_evaluate=true) Perhaps %hide(h1My heading/h1, hide_evaluate=true) Dunno. I didn't think this through really. Someone might have a better idea. Bill. On 11 Apr, 23:50, William Stein wst...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Bill Hart goodwillh...@googlemail.com wrote: Is there a way to latex using amscd for commutative diagrams in the notebook? This would be an extremely useful feature. I guess one is limited by the latex features that are available in a webpage. One option is to at least use %latex mode in a cell, e.g., put %latex at the top of a cell. Then the rest of the cell is typeset in latex, and you can do a lot with that. I don't know if the amscd diagram package is imported by default though. It would be easy to make that possible though. William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
Hi Bill, Grab the worksheet at http://buzzard.ups.edu/sage/sage-group-theory-primer.sws for an example of an interactive SagePaper (tm). There should even be an @interact cell that will build a nicely formatted table of the subgroups of a finite cyclic group, given the order of the group. On Apr 11, 4:51 pm, Bill Hart goodwillh...@googlemail.com wrote: Another suggestion. Has anyone thought about having SagePapers TM, --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
Thanks Rob. It is great to see I am not the only person who has gotten excited. This idea is s good I am having trouble finding a reason to not Just Do It TM. I know there is a Sage Journal idea floated (JSage). So some of what I am thinking is surely motivated by that. Here is what I envision: * A front end like arxiv.org, but with a distinguished board of editors who organise reviewers for the papers, i.e. a proper journal setup, but with an algorithmic/computational bent. * The archive would provide a list of papers, which when selected would send the worksheet to one of a list of sage servers set up around the world. Each server might have different Sage/GP/Magma, etc binaries installed on it. The paper would specify which binaries it relies on and the archive mechanism would only list servers which provide those binaries. So you'd effectively select a paper and a server and the process of bringing that paper up for you would be automated. (This would mainly be for papers including benchmarks - for other papers a minimum or list of binaries supporting the examples in that paper would be provided). * Universities would pay for a subscription to the service, which would pay for the hardware to run all the different CAS binaries which would be required, and pay for work on the notebook itself, maintenance of the archive system, storage, etc. A University might get a free subscription if they provide a server. Individuals might be able to pay for a lifetime subscription just for themselves, for a nominal fee, which they could pay for out of grants, etc. Non- academics not working for companies who could pay for their subscription could write to the maintainers for a free account. I would hate to absolutely limit access to ideas/papers, but the infrastructure required to set this up would need to be paid for somehow, and since the whole thing has come from the Sage process, I don't see why the Sage Foundation could not provide jobs for people to do work on Sage and the notebook as a consequence of such funding. * There could also be a selection of refereed expositions available, which would be required to have examples implemented in some supported CAS within the worksheet. * Papers could contain live benchmarks, and getting up-to-date benchmarks would be as simple as running on a server with more recent binaries (this would be an available option at the archive level). The only problem I can see is that when parallel processing becomes the norm, very large computations and benchmarks might be included in papers. Obviously the execution of those would have to be limited. Perhaps an option could be provided for a researcher to re-run such computations on their own Sage server, so they are then responsible for providing the cycles. I guess it should be possible to just pay for time on a machine from a grant to run such a computation from a Sage worksheet. But this would be well down the track. The reason I like this idea so much is that it makes formal mathematical papers interactive, which is probably a whole new paradigm which has been opened up in recent months by the availability of the Sage Notebook. It's clear a number of people have been thinking about doing something like this for a while, and I now claim that I am too excited about such a prospect. This could really make getting credit for work on algorithms and implementations feasible. Were there a proper international board of editors, highly respected in my field, available to organise formal refereeing of my paper through such a mechanism, I would be highly motivated to develop new algorithms, implement them, get them accepted into MPIR, FLINT, Sage, etc, write a paper on the algorithm using the Sage Notebook, including examples and/or benchmarks, and submit to the SagePapers archive. I'd then get credit for what I am not currently getting formal academic credit. And it would be fun too!! Hell, I'd even be inclined to write purely theoretical papers and illustrate them with examples using Sage and write the paper in the Sage Notebook and submit those too. And I see no reason why I wouldn't write review papers and expositions too, on areas of computational interest with which I am intimately familiar. As a first step towards something like this, setting up a website with a list of surveys/expositions which have been refereed and attached to a single Sage server, just as proof of principle would be an easy first step. Essentially the infrastucture for this already exists. We'd just need a distinguished editorship and some referees and submissions. Bill. On 12 Apr, 01:17, Rob Beezer goo...@beezer.cotse.net wrote: Hi Bill, Grab the worksheet at http://buzzard.ups.edu/sage/sage-group-theory-primer.sws for an example of an interactive SagePaper (tm). There should even be an @interact cell that will build a nicely formatted table of the subgroups of a finite cyclic group, given the order of the group. On Apr 11, 4:51 pm,
[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
Hi Bill, That all sounds great. But first you'll have to find somebody distinguished. ;-) Seriously, I see no real reason there can't be interactive research articles, interactive textbooks and interactive classroom demonstrations, all with the power of Sage right at the fingertips of the researcher/student/teacher. The combination of Sage, the notebook interface and jsMath opens up so many possibilities. There are still a few rough edges on all this, but there's nothing insurmountable in my view. I wonder if there is anybody who has been tempted to get JSAGE really rolling? http://www.sagemath.org/library/jsage/index.html I think it would be a great vehicle for researchers and contributors to get formal acknowledgement for significant theoretical or implementation projects within Sage. To say nothing of serving as a demonstration of all the ideas you've presented. Rob --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Commutative diagrams in notebook
I think JSage has a slightly different focus. Specifically: * It is tied to the Sage Python library * It is intended for people who have a complementary publication in a traditional journal * The code has to be included in Sage and be maintained there * The board of editors consists of Sage developers What I have in mind is different: * Not tied to implementations in Sage, but implementations accessible from the Sage Notebook * It would *be* a traditional journal (except that it is only available online) - no need for a separate written paper * The code could be in python, C or assembler, etc., in Sage, in Macaulay, Gap or Magma, etc. - the only requirement is it is accessible from the Sage Notebook * The board of editors would be distinguished mathematicians, not necessarily Sage developers (eventually there would be lots of people who are both) * The code examples, algorithm implementations need not run forever and a day in the latest Sage - they would be tied to a certain historical binary, e.g. Gap version x.y.z and Sage version k.l.m And I would be interested in: * Teaching expositions * Survey papers * Implementations of new algorithms * Theoretical papers (where some significant portion of it relies on computations which need verification or where computational examples are given to illustrate it) Both JSage and SagePapers could exist. I personally am not interested in JSage the way it is currently set up. It's an extremely valuable thing to have, just not any use to me personally. As for finding distinguished people, perhaps I am naive, but I have a few names in mind. I guess I am using my definition of distinguished here. I don't care for having old boys club members numbered 1 through 3 on the board. Editors should be committed to the principles of open verification, recognising the historical role of computation in modern mathematics, the use of technology in mathematics dissemination, the importance of clear exposition and a general disposition towards valuing mathematics which has broad academic application and appeal. There *are* distinguished mathematicians who have recognised and stood for those principles throughout their careers. They tend to win awards for their exposition and/or research or have a large body of both computational results and formal papers to their name. I'd name names, but that would be jumping the gun. The one advantage an online journal has over a paper journal is there need not be a page limit on exposition. A clear introduction to the subject matter of the paper, no matter how technical, could be added. I see this as one of the distinct advantages of this medium, along with the fact that computations can be verified by any reader and not hidden away in a broken implementation on someone's hard drive which is never verifiable. Bill. On 12 Apr, 05:45, Rob Beezer goo...@beezer.cotse.net wrote: Hi Bill, That all sounds great. But first you'll have to find somebody distinguished. ;-) Seriously, I see no real reason there can't be interactive research articles, interactive textbooks and interactive classroom demonstrations, all with the power of Sage right at the fingertips of the researcher/student/teacher. The combination of Sage, the notebook interface and jsMath opens up so many possibilities. There are still a few rough edges on all this, but there's nothing insurmountable in my view. I wonder if there is anybody who has been tempted to get JSAGE really rolling? http://www.sagemath.org/library/jsage/index.html I think it would be a great vehicle for researchers and contributors to get formal acknowledgement for significant theoretical or implementation projects within Sage. To say nothing of serving as a demonstration of all the ideas you've presented. Rob --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
