[sage-devel] Re: Math typesetting for inputs in the notebook

[P Purkayastha]

On Sunday, March 25, 2012 1:52:34 PM UTC+8, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
> On 2012-03-25, Jonathan  wrote:
> > --=_Part_1580_10983212.​1332639593822
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > I agree that having a palette or menu (I think palette is better) entry 
> is 
> > a good way to lower the entry barrier.  I think the goal should be to 
> have 
> > entry of common expressions (derivatives, integrals, matrices, 
> fractions, 
> > exponents and square roots top my list) available from the palette. They 
> > should be translated by the Javascript into normal Sage functions.  Once 
> > users get used to the pythonic function syntax, I doubt they will make 
> much 
> > use of the palette, except for generating typeset expressions.
>
> this probably should be an extension to tinymce, the js editor now used
> to input tekst cells.
>
something like this? 
http://www.imathas.com/editordemo/demo.html
 

> >
> > Jonathan
> >
>

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[sage-devel] Re: Math typesetting for inputs in the notebook

[Dima Pasechnik]

On 2012-03-25, Jonathan  wrote:
> --=_Part_1580_10983212.1332639593822
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I agree that having a palette or menu (I think palette is better) entry is 
> a good way to lower the entry barrier.  I think the goal should be to have 
> entry of common expressions (derivatives, integrals, matrices, fractions, 
> exponents and square roots top my list) available from the palette. They 
> should be translated by the Javascript into normal Sage functions.  Once 
> users get used to the pythonic function syntax, I doubt they will make much 
> use of the palette, except for generating typeset expressions.

this probably should be an extension to tinymce, the js editor now used
to input tekst cells.

>
> Jonathan
>

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[sage-devel] Re: Math typesetting for inputs in the notebook

[Jonathan]

I agree that having a palette or menu (I think palette is better) entry is 
a good way to lower the entry barrier.  I think the goal should be to have 
entry of common expressions (derivatives, integrals, matrices, fractions, 
exponents and square roots top my list) available from the palette. They 
should be translated by the Javascript into normal Sage functions.  Once 
users get used to the pythonic function syntax, I doubt they will make much 
use of the palette, except for generating typeset expressions.

Jonathan

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[sage-devel] Re: Math typesetting for inputs in the notebook

[kcrisman]

On Mar 23, 1:06 am, rjf  wrote:
>  I assume the idea is to use selecting from menus/palettes, since that
> is the
> alternative to keyboard input in Mathematica.
>
> I know of no evidence that this makes it easier (or faster) to input
> long and
> complicated expressions. Do you?

Maple made a big point of something similar a few years back with the
addition of lots of contextualized stuff.  My sense from a lot of
student interaction on this is that palettes make it easier to get
started, because one is already familiar with the visual form of the
formulas, as opposed to the somewhat steep LaTeX (or other) learning
curve.  My feedback has also been that once people realize that LaTeX
is not really that hard, they totally abandon things like the MS
Equation Editor.  But you have to have the need/desire to actually do
enough formulas to make that worthwhile.  I don't see why having an
optional palette in the notebook would be a problem, from that
standpoint.  Whether it would be really effective is a separate
question.

> Studying how to use the mathinput panel (free, in windows) as a
> handwriting front-end to
> Sage could be done, though I think handwriting, suffers from "demo"
> syndrome.  Easy
> to build a demo, impossible to deploy for real.  Or to use spoken
> input, which is, I think
> more promising.

Probably, and it would be cool.  Does anyone know what e.g. Dragon
does for equations, if anything?  Can Siri handle formula input?  Just
wondering.

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[sage-devel] Re: Math typesetting for inputs in the notebook

[rjf]

 I assume the idea is to use selecting from menus/palettes, since that
is the
alternative to keyboard input in Mathematica.

I know of no evidence that this makes it easier (or faster) to input
long and
complicated expressions. Do you?

Studying how to use the mathinput panel (free, in windows) as a
handwriting front-end to
Sage could be done, though I think handwriting, suffers from "demo"
syndrome.  Easy
to build a demo, impossible to deploy for real.  Or to use spoken
input, which is, I think
more promising.

RJF


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[sage-devel] Re: Math typesetting for inputs in the notebook

[Yukun]

In terms of my coding experience, I know Python and Java, but I haven't had 
any experience with javascript yet. From what you've said, I guess this 
project won't be suitable for me.

On Tuesday, March 20, 2012 2:02:35 PM UTC-7, dpvc wrote:
>
> Jason:
>
> As you know, I have done a lot of thinking about interactive math  
> editors, and when I estimate how long it would take me to write what I  
> consider a descent editor, it is on the order of a month and a half to  
> two months of full-time work.  You would need someone with experience  
> in object-oriented programming, and cross-browser javascript coding  
> (particularly familiar with event handling).  As you know, I had a  
> student work on this in the past, and we spend a full year on it and  
> still didn't have a finished product.  I do not know the student who  
> has proposed the project, so I can't tell you if he or she can  
> accomplish the task, but my experience is that this is not a summer  
> project for most students.  Having an almost-but-not-quite-finished,  
> or worse yet, a buggy editor will be worse than having none at all.   
> This is also something that will need support into the future  
> (especially as new versions of browsers come out, since this is  
> closely tied to one of the more touchy aspects of javascript -- event  
> handling), so I am a bit concerned about the code being written and  
> then slowly degrading over time.  As for mentoring the project, I'm  
> afraid that I am already booked up this summer and could not in good  
> conscience take on advising a student on a project of this magnitude.
>
> I know that none of that is what you wanted to hear, but that is my  
> opinion.  On the other hand, it is still something I would be  
> interested in working on.  If you have some cash to throw at it, we  
> should talk.  :-)
>
> Davide
>
>
> On Mar 19, 2012, at 6:39 PM, Jason Grout wrote:
>
> > On 3/18/12 4:14 PM, Yukun wrote:
> >>That ticket pretty much covers what I want to implement; do you
> >>think that is suitable for a GSoC project?
> >
> > My guess is that a good javascript equation editor would be a good  
> > project.  I'd suggest asking Davide Cervone if he would mentor the  
> > project.  As the ticket points out, Davide wrote Mathjax keeping in  
> > mind the things needed for an equation editor.  Davide had a student  
> > that worked on an equation editor at one point.
> >
> > Davide: Sage has been accepted as a mentoring organization for the  
> > Google Summer of Code program. A student asked about doing a Google  
> > Summer of Code project implementing a javascript equation editor  
> > [1], like 
> http://www.math.union.edu/~​dpvc/talks/2006-12-08.IMA/​editor.html
>  
> >  (at least, that's what I think the student is talking about).  Can  
> > you give us an idea of how much work it would be, and what level of  
> > experience is necessary to do such a thing over a summer?  Also,  
> > would you possibly be willing to mentor such a project in the summer  
> > if a well-qualified student applied?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jason
> >
> > [1] 
> http://groups.google.com/​group/sage-devel/browse_​thread/thread/​318f154094736177#
> >
> >
>
>

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[sage-devel] Re: Math typesetting for inputs in the notebook

[Davide P. Cervone]

Jason:

As you know, I have done a lot of thinking about interactive math  
editors, and when I estimate how long it would take me to write what I  
consider a descent editor, it is on the order of a month and a half to  
two months of full-time work.  You would need someone with experience  
in object-oriented programming, and cross-browser javascript coding  
(particularly familiar with event handling).  As you know, I had a  
student work on this in the past, and we spend a full year on it and  
still didn't have a finished product.  I do not know the student who  
has proposed the project, so I can't tell you if he or she can  
accomplish the task, but my experience is that this is not a summer  
project for most students.  Having an almost-but-not-quite-finished,  
or worse yet, a buggy editor will be worse than having none at all.   
This is also something that will need support into the future  
(especially as new versions of browsers come out, since this is  
closely tied to one of the more touchy aspects of javascript -- event  
handling), so I am a bit concerned about the code being written and  
then slowly degrading over time.  As for mentoring the project, I'm  
afraid that I am already booked up this summer and could not in good  
conscience take on advising a student on a project of this magnitude.


I know that none of that is what you wanted to hear, but that is my  
opinion.  On the other hand, it is still something I would be  
interested in working on.  If you have some cash to throw at it, we  
should talk.  :-)


Davide


On Mar 19, 2012, at 6:39 PM, Jason Grout wrote:


On 3/18/12 4:14 PM, Yukun wrote:

   That ticket pretty much covers what I want to implement; do you
   think that is suitable for a GSoC project?


My guess is that a good javascript equation editor would be a good  
project.  I'd suggest asking Davide Cervone if he would mentor the  
project.  As the ticket points out, Davide wrote Mathjax keeping in  
mind the things needed for an equation editor.  Davide had a student  
that worked on an equation editor at one point.


Davide: Sage has been accepted as a mentoring organization for the  
Google Summer of Code program. A student asked about doing a Google  
Summer of Code project implementing a javascript equation editor  
[1], like http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/talks/2006-12-08.IMA/editor.html 
 (at least, that's what I think the student is talking about).  Can  
you give us an idea of how much work it would be, and what level of  
experience is necessary to do such a thing over a summer?  Also,  
would you possibly be willing to mentor such a project in the summer  
if a well-qualified student applied?


Thanks,

Jason

[1] 
http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/browse_thread/thread/318f154094736177#




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[sage-devel] Re: Math typesetting for inputs in the notebook

[Jason Grout]

On 3/18/12 4:14 PM, Yukun wrote:

That ticket pretty much covers what I want to implement; do you
think that is suitable for a GSoC project?


My guess is that a good javascript equation editor would be a good 
project.  I'd suggest asking Davide Cervone if he would mentor the 
project.  As the ticket points out, Davide wrote Mathjax keeping in mind 
the things needed for an equation editor.  Davide had a student that 
worked on an equation editor at one point.


Davide: Sage has been accepted as a mentoring organization for the 
Google Summer of Code program. A student asked about doing a Google 
Summer of Code project implementing a javascript equation editor [1], 
like http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/talks/2006-12-08.IMA/editor.html 
(at least, that's what I think the student is talking about).  Can you 
give us an idea of how much work it would be, and what level of 
experience is necessary to do such a thing over a summer?  Also, would 
you possibly be willing to mentor such a project in the summer if a 
well-qualified student applied?


Thanks,

Jason

[1] 
http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/browse_thread/thread/318f154094736177#


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[sage-devel] Re: Math typesetting for inputs in the notebook

[Yukun]

That's a correct reading, I'll be primarily be targeting the 2nd point 
about improving the readability of large expressions, and I believe math 
typesetting will also make such inputs easier. Your first point about color 
coding arguments is also something that I could work on.

On Sunday, March 18, 2012 3:07:06 AM UTC-7, Johan Grönqvist wrote:
>
> 2012-03-18 07:46, Yukun skrev:
> > I played around with the Sage notebook, and I think it would be
> > convenient if math typesetting is available for input (like in
> > mathematica), as it'll make it much easier to input long and complicated
> > functions.
>
> I will not take part in the GSOC discussion, so this message should in 
> no way be read as an opinion on what might be a reasonable GSOC project 
> scope. As a sage-user I can see the usefulness of mathematica-style 
> input in three ways (from my perspective):
>
> 1) Color coded hints: Something along the lines of having function 
> arguments in one color (or style), symbolic variables in a second color 
> (or style), most things in a third color (or style) and finally 
> undefined names in a fourth color/style (good for spotting typos).
>
> 2) Readability of large expressions involving, e.g., fractions and lots 
> of parentheses.
>
> 3) Using tensor notation in a comfortable way. Tensor usage in 
> Mathematica can be accomplished with both upper and lower indices and it 
> is possible to use pattern-matching on upper and lower indices 
> separately in replacement-rules.
>
> A fourth input-help would be syntax highlighting of python (and possible 
> other) code, but according to some mailing list, that was considered and 
> discarded for performance reasons.
>
> It sounds like you are primarily targeting number 2, is that a correct 
> reading?
>
> Regards
>
> Johan
>
>

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[sage-devel] Re: Math typesetting for inputs in the notebook

[Johan Grönqvist]

2012-03-18 07:46, Yukun skrev:

I played around with the Sage notebook, and I think it would be
convenient if math typesetting is available for input (like in
mathematica), as it'll make it much easier to input long and complicated
functions.


I will not take part in the GSOC discussion, so this message should in 
no way be read as an opinion on what might be a reasonable GSOC project 
scope. As a sage-user I can see the usefulness of mathematica-style 
input in three ways (from my perspective):


1) Color coded hints: Something along the lines of having function 
arguments in one color (or style), symbolic variables in a second color 
(or style), most things in a third color (or style) and finally 
undefined names in a fourth color/style (good for spotting typos).


2) Readability of large expressions involving, e.g., fractions and lots 
of parentheses.


3) Using tensor notation in a comfortable way. Tensor usage in 
Mathematica can be accomplished with both upper and lower indices and it 
is possible to use pattern-matching on upper and lower indices 
separately in replacement-rules.


A fourth input-help would be syntax highlighting of python (and possible 
other) code, but according to some mailing list, that was considered and 
discarded for performance reasons.


It sounds like you are primarily targeting number 2, is that a correct 
reading?


Regards

Johan

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[sage-devel] Re: Math typesetting for inputs in the notebook

[Dima Pasechnik]

For most people in this group, "math typesetting" means TeX/LaTeX 
typesetting. It is a de fact standard among mathematicians. Then, math 
notation is typically much less verbose than code in programming language. 
E.g. the integral sign might mean different things, depending on context.
Then, it normally helps to split long and complicated functions into short 
and easy ones. From my experience with Mathematica, the feature you 
describe would be useful for entering indices of vectors, sums, etc, but 
not much more than that.

On Sunday, 18 March 2012 14:46:28 UTC+8, Yukun wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm a 1st year CS student interested in doing a GSoC project this summer. 
> I played around with the Sage notebook, and I think it would 
> be convenient if math typesetting is available for input (like in 
> mathematica), as it'll make it much easier to input long and complicated 
> functions. To implement this, I'm thinking of introducing a typesetting 
> toolbox into the the notebook UI. It'll probably be more of a change in the 
> front-end; when evaluating expressions with typesetting, they'll first be 
> converted back to the current input form.
>
> Yukun
>

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