Re: [sage-devel] Re: Simulation in Sage

[Christian Kuper]

On Monday, February 11, 2013 10:57:12 PM UTC+1, William wrote: 
>
>
> The mission statement of the Sage project is: "Create a viable free 
> open source alternative to Magma, Maple, Matlab, and Mathematica." 
> I came up with this statement one year after starting the project, and 
> have stuck with it since; it seems to provide good general guidance. 
>
> Thus if there is some functionality of interest in Matlab (say), then 
> it belongs in Sage.I'm guessing the Simulink package in Matlab 
> thus justifies something relevant to this email as belonging in Sage. 
>
> William 
>
 
Thank you, that example make ist very clear  even to me ;-)
 
I havn't worked with Simulink but from my understanding Simulink is a 
continuous simulation while Simpy is a descrete event simulation, so 
something like Simulink + SimEvent
 

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[sage-devel] Re: Simulation in Sage

[Christian Kuper]

On Monday, February 11, 2013 9:12:08 PM UTC+1, mhampton wrote: 
>
> I think this could be valuable, but it is not clear to me what SimPy 
> can do.  We definitely need more capability for simulation with 
> interactive controls in Sage. 
>
> If SimPy is all Tkinter-based, it might be hard to incorporate it into 
> the notebook.  At the moment the most promising route forward that I 
> know of is to extend the capabilities of  @interact.  Maybe its 
> possible to incorporate SimPy in a useful way into the interact 
> framework, although I don't personally see how (but I don't know 
> enough about it). 
>
 
SimPy is a Process oriented Discrete Event Simulation package. Basically it 
is a Python library of classes for modelling Discrete Event Systems such as 
queues, networks, factory processes etc. It provides classes for Processes, 
Ressources, Stores (e.g Warehouses), Events, Monitors etc. As it is just a 
Python Library it can be used in the notebook() without problems.
 
However, it does not have interactive controls. I havn't used @interact yet 
but an integration should be possible. 
 
Christian

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Simulation in Sage

[Thierry Dumont]

Le 12/02/2013 11:55, Volker Braun a écrit :

+1 for having a FEM implementation.

I've seen some of the codes in numerical GR (Cactus) and they are
definitely not "generic FEM" implementations that one could apply to a
wide range of problems ;-)

On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 7:12:42 AM UTC, tdumont wrote:

I like FreeFem++
http://www.freefem.org/ff++/index.htm

because it does not hide mathematics! But integrating it in Sage would
certainly be a hard task, I think. Any opinion about this?


It already has a shared library interface, thats a great plus. I think
it would be easy to tie it in with a simple ipc messaging system much
like the Mathematica mathlink demo I posted about a month ago.

What we primarily need to figure out is how to present the functionality
to the user. I guess thats basically three pieces of information: mesh
construction/refinement, the PDE itself, and boundary data. It would be
nice if you could just throw a symbolic PDE in there and get out
something reasonable...


I know very well the guys in University Paris VI which develop FreeFem; 
FreeFem is widely used in the community of PDEs in France and even, a 
lot of money has been put in the development.

I start a discusssion with them.

Yours
t.


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<>

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Simulation in Sage

[Volker Braun]

+1 for having a FEM implementation. 

I've seen some of the codes in numerical GR (Cactus) and they are 
definitely not "generic FEM" implementations that one could apply to a wide 
range of problems ;-)

On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 7:12:42 AM UTC, tdumont wrote:
>
> I like FreeFem++ 
> http://www.freefem.org/ff++/index.htm 
> because it does not hide mathematics! But integrating it in Sage would 
> certainly be a hard task, I think. Any opinion about this?
>

It already has a shared library interface, thats a great plus. I think it 
would be easy to tie it in with a simple ipc messaging system much like the 
Mathematica mathlink demo I posted about a month ago. 

What we primarily need to figure out is how to present the functionality to 
the user. I guess thats basically three pieces of information: mesh 
construction/refinement, the PDE itself, and boundary data. It would be 
nice if you could just throw a symbolic PDE in there and get out something 
reasonable...


 

>
> -in my country, many people use matlab only for graphics; Sage as good 
> graphics, but not yet exactly at the same level as matlab. 
>
> -parallelism: matlab as some interesting things...Sage has only mpi and 
> "forks"... 
>
> So, there is much to do (which is great)... 
>
> t.d. 
>
> >>> 
> >>> Since it is a normal python package, the first step of integrating 
> this 
> >>> into sage is to package it as an experimental SPKG. Then, it is at 
> least 
> >>> very easy to install. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Fully agree, I did not have making a simulation part of the standard in 
> >> mind. As I said, I created a "personal experimental package" and 
> integrated 
> >> it ito one of my Sage installs. This is absolutly sufficient for my 
> personal 
> >> use. However, if the community thinks it is worthwhile I would put it 
> up for 
> >> review. 
> >> 
> >> Christian 
> >> 
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> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
>
>

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[sage-devel] Re: Simulation in Sage

[Harald Schilly]

On Monday, February 11, 2013 7:38:08 PM UTC+1, Christian Kuper wrote:
>
> I would be greatly interested in your opinion why you think "no".
>

Well, I wasn't that serious and it's just for me personally. Can you give 
me some examples what this package could do? I'm happy to learn more every 
day :-)

> not fully aware of the Sage philosophy

Stick to the mission statement and don't re-invent the wheel. That's also 
the reason why there are so many 3rd party libraries - at carefully chosen 
versions plus appropriate patches, wrappers and lots of testing. 

H

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Simulation in Sage

[Harald Schilly]

On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 8:12:42 AM UTC+1, tdumont wrote:
>
> -parallelism: matlab as some interesting things...Sage has only mpi and 
> "forks"... 


... wait until ipython 0.13 is properly inside sage: 
http://ipython.org/ipython-doc/dev/parallel/

H
 

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[sage-devel] Re: Simulation in Sage

[P Purkayastha]

On 02/12/2013 03:12 PM, Thierry Dumont wrote:


-in my country, many people use matlab only for graphics; Sage as good
graphics, but not yet exactly at the same level as matlab.


I would say the graphics _output_ in Sage is better than in matlab - try 
introducing antialiasing of figures in matlab (in case you are not 
getting antialised output). What Sage is missing is a way of 
interactively editing graphics properties.



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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Simulation in Sage

[Thierry Dumont]

Le 11/02/2013 22:57, William Stein a écrit :

On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 10:38 AM, Christian Kuper
 wrote:

Hello Harald,

thanks for your quick reply


Honestly personal answer: no. But I'm happy to be proven wrong :-)



I would be greatly interested in your opinion why you think "no". Simulation
does play a big role when analysing systems (which I use Sage for) and I
personally like having the whole toolbox "in one piece". However, it surely
does not make sense to integrate everything into Sage and I am not fully
aware of the Sage philosophy of what would be sensible to put into Sage and
what not.


The mission statement of the Sage project is: "Create a viable free
open source alternative to Magma, Maple, Matlab, and Mathematica."
I came up with this statement one year after starting the project, and
have stuck with it since; it seems to provide good general guidance.

Thus if there is some functionality of interest in Matlab (say), then
it belongs in Sage.I'm guessing the Simulink package in Matlab
thus justifies something relevant to this email as belonging in Sage.

William





Well, as I am doing numerical analysis and "scientific computing", I 
agree...


But if we look at the list of Matlab Toolboxes:
http://www.mathworks.fr/products/
we can say that a lot have been done (if we are optimistic), or that a 
lot remains to be done...


More seriously:
-we would need to have Finite Elements (and finite volumes), and tools
 to build Finite Elements meshes (matlab pde toolbox...); at least this 
would be a great tool for teaching to have FE integrated in Sage. But 
then the  question will be: which FE code to put in Sage? Many are 
oriented towards a group of applications, and very limited when they are 
free.

I like FreeFem++
http://www.freefem.org/ff++/index.htm
because it does not hide mathematics! But integrating it in Sage would 
certainly be a hard task, I think. Any opinion about this?


-in my country, many people use matlab only for graphics; Sage as good 
graphics, but not yet exactly at the same level as matlab.


-parallelism: matlab as some interesting things...Sage has only mpi and 
"forks"...


So, there is much to do (which is great)...

t.d.



Since it is a normal python package, the first step of integrating this
into sage is to package it as an experimental SPKG. Then, it is at least
very easy to install.



Fully agree, I did not have making a simulation part of the standard in
mind. As I said, I created a "personal experimental package" and integrated
it ito one of my Sage installs. This is absolutly sufficient for my personal
use. However, if the community thinks it is worthwhile I would put it up for
review.

Christian

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<>

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Simulation in Sage

[William Stein]

On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 10:38 AM, Christian Kuper
 wrote:
> Hello Harald,
>
> thanks for your quick reply
>>
>> Honestly personal answer: no. But I'm happy to be proven wrong :-)
>
>
> I would be greatly interested in your opinion why you think "no". Simulation
> does play a big role when analysing systems (which I use Sage for) and I
> personally like having the whole toolbox "in one piece". However, it surely
> does not make sense to integrate everything into Sage and I am not fully
> aware of the Sage philosophy of what would be sensible to put into Sage and
> what not.

The mission statement of the Sage project is: "Create a viable free
open source alternative to Magma, Maple, Matlab, and Mathematica."
I came up with this statement one year after starting the project, and
have stuck with it since; it seems to provide good general guidance.

Thus if there is some functionality of interest in Matlab (say), then
it belongs in Sage.I'm guessing the Simulink package in Matlab
thus justifies something relevant to this email as belonging in Sage.

William

>
>>
>> Since it is a normal python package, the first step of integrating this
>> into sage is to package it as an experimental SPKG. Then, it is at least
>> very easy to install.
>
>
> Fully agree, I did not have making a simulation part of the standard in
> mind. As I said, I created a "personal experimental package" and integrated
> it ito one of my Sage installs. This is absolutly sufficient for my personal
> use. However, if the community thinks it is worthwhile I would put it up for
> review.
>
> Christian
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "sage-devel" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel?hl=en.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>



-- 
William Stein
Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org

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[sage-devel] Re: Simulation in Sage

[mhampton]

I think this could be valuable, but it is not clear to me what SimPy
can do.  We definitely need more capability for simulation with
interactive controls in Sage.

If SimPy is all Tkinter-based, it might be hard to incorporate it into
the notebook.  At the moment the most promising route forward that I
know of is to extend the capabilities of  @interact.  Maybe its
possible to incorporate SimPy in a useful way into the interact
framework, although I don't personally see how (but I don't know
enough about it).

-Marshall Hampton

On Feb 11, 12:38 pm, Christian Kuper 
wrote:
> Hello Harald,
>
> thanks for your quick reply
>
> > Honestly personal answer: no. But I'm happy to be proven wrong :-)
>
> I would be greatly interested in your opinion why you think "no".
> Simulation does play a big role when analysing systems (which I use Sage
> for) and I personally like having the whole toolbox "in one piece".
> However, it surely does not make sense to integrate everything into Sage
> and I am not fully aware of the Sage philosophy of what would be sensible
> to put into Sage and what not. This is the reason behind my post here.
>
> > Since it is a normal python package, the first step of integrating this
> > into sage is to package it as an experimental SPKG. Then, it is at least
> > very easy to install.
>
> Fully agree, I did not have making a simulation part of the standard in
> mind. As I said, I created a "personal experimental package" and integrated
> it ito one of my Sage installs. This is absolutly sufficient for my
> personal use. However, if the community thinks it is worthwhile I would put
> it up for review.
>
> Christian

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[sage-devel] Re: Simulation in Sage

[Christian Kuper]

Hello Harald,
 
thanks for your quick reply

> Honestly personal answer: no. But I'm happy to be proven wrong :-)
>
 
I would be greatly interested in your opinion why you think "no". 
Simulation does play a big role when analysing systems (which I use Sage 
for) and I personally like having the whole toolbox "in one piece". 
However, it surely does not make sense to integrate everything into Sage 
and I am not fully aware of the Sage philosophy of what would be sensible 
to put into Sage and what not. This is the reason behind my post here.
 

> Since it is a normal python package, the first step of integrating this 
> into sage is to package it as an experimental SPKG. Then, it is at least 
> very easy to install.
>
 
Fully agree, I did not have making a simulation part of the standard in 
mind. As I said, I created a "personal experimental package" and integrated 
it ito one of my Sage installs. This is absolutly sufficient for my 
personal use. However, if the community thinks it is worthwhile I would put 
it up for review. 
 
Christian

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[sage-devel] Re: Simulation in Sage

[Harald Schilly]

On Sunday, February 10, 2013 9:17:55 PM UTC+1, Christian Kuper wrote:
> Do you think something like this would be useful?

Honestly personal answer: no. But I'm happy to be proven wrong :-)

Since it is a normal python package, the first step of integrating this 
into sage is to package it as an experimental SPKG. Then, it is at least 
very easy to install.
http://www.sagemath.org/doc/developer/producing_spkgs.html

H

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