Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
> > > And the main question: Does this really concern that much packages? If the > number > would be countable on one hand, it should really be considerd. > > >> This sort of thing has been on our wish list since I started working with Sage, anyway, and the problem is not so much the number of packages as to how to disentangle them and their imports. Most of them are probably the same ones as cause trouble on a native Windows port, so you could look there... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
I don't know. Is it harder to support a full Sage on a variety of different platforms which are needed, or to make a reduced Sage, where testing of the sub-distribution can be fully contained, in the main framework? Additionally to that, we have to keep in mind that while sage grows in functionality, more modularity gives better maintainability, which could be necessary someday anyway, And the main question: Does this really concern that much packages? If the number would be countable on one hand, it should really be considerd. On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 9:42:05 PM UTC+1, William wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 12:14 PM, maldun > > wrote: > > Hi! > > > > Concerning the support problematic for ARM, Windows etc: > > > > We should ask ourselfs if we need a more minimal Sage distribution, > which is > > easily portable to > > ALL Platforms. The main problem with Sage on many platforms is, that > some > > packages often fail to build. > > Especially C based packages as troublemakers. > > > > I absolutely don't want to close out these packages! But we should > consider > > a subset of Sage (let's call it MiniSage) > > which is easier portable and more slender, but which contains enough > > functionality for the average user. > > This gives the developers more time to polish out problems with packages > of > > the traditional Sage, > > while maintaining and improving functionality of the core set on the > device > > in question. > > > > That would come to the following new structure: > > Minimal Packages (MiniSage)-> Core Packages (traditional Sage) -> > optional > > Packages ... > > I think everybody would want to have such a thing. In practice, it is > a simply a lot of work (especially for the release manager), and we > have very limited resources in that regards, to put it mildly... > > If we had more resources, there are so many things like this that I > would want us to do. > > > > > -Stefan > > > > On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 6:25:56 PM UTC+1, William wrote: > >> > >> On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 9:20 AM, mmarco wrote: > >> > Yes we do, but not as completely as x86. For instance the last > version > >> > that > >> > has an arm binary in the download page is 5.13. > >> > > >> > The Wolfram language, which is something like a strpped version of > >> > Mathematica, is included in the raspbian distribution. So, would > >> > raspberry > >> > pi support fit into the mission statement? > >> > >> Definitely, yes it does, without any question. > >> > >> -- William > >> > >> > > >> > El lunes, 8 de diciembre de 2014 23:10:49 UTC+1, William escribió: > >> >> > >> >> On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Jean-Pierre Flori > > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > On Monday, December 8, 2014 9:53:51 PM UTC+1, mmarco wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Maybe support for arm architecture would be relevant in that > >> >> >> respect. > >> >> > > >> >> > We do support ARM, don't we? > >> >> > > >> >> > At least I'm able to compile Sage from scratch on a Raspberry Pi > and > >> >> > on > >> >> > armv7+ as well. > >> >> > >> >> Awesome! And yes we do. > >> >> > >> >> Again, as this thread is titled "User Survey", let's say that the > >> >> survey question might be: "Do you *care* about support for Sage on > ARM > >> >> devices such as Raspberry Pi, etc.?" > >> >> > >> >> William > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> >> > Groups > >> >> > "sage-devel" group. > >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > >> >> > send > >> >> > an > >> >> > email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. > >> >> > To post to this group, send email to sage-...@googlegroups.com. > >> >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > >> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> William Stein > >> >> Professor of Mathematics > >> >> University of Washington > >> >> http://wstein.org > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> > Groups > >> > "sage-devel" group. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send > >> > an > >> > email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. > >> > To post to this group, send email to sage-...@googlegroups.com. > >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> William Stein > >> Professor of Mathematics > >> University of Washington > >> http://wstein.org > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "sage-devel" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an > > email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com . > > To post to this
Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 12:14 PM, maldun wrote: > Hi! > > Concerning the support problematic for ARM, Windows etc: > > We should ask ourselfs if we need a more minimal Sage distribution, which is > easily portable to > ALL Platforms. The main problem with Sage on many platforms is, that some > packages often fail to build. > Especially C based packages as troublemakers. > > I absolutely don't want to close out these packages! But we should consider > a subset of Sage (let's call it MiniSage) > which is easier portable and more slender, but which contains enough > functionality for the average user. > This gives the developers more time to polish out problems with packages of > the traditional Sage, > while maintaining and improving functionality of the core set on the device > in question. > > That would come to the following new structure: > Minimal Packages (MiniSage)-> Core Packages (traditional Sage) -> optional > Packages ... I think everybody would want to have such a thing. In practice, it is a simply a lot of work (especially for the release manager), and we have very limited resources in that regards, to put it mildly... If we had more resources, there are so many things like this that I would want us to do. > > -Stefan > > On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 6:25:56 PM UTC+1, William wrote: >> >> On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 9:20 AM, mmarco wrote: >> > Yes we do, but not as completely as x86. For instance the last version >> > that >> > has an arm binary in the download page is 5.13. >> > >> > The Wolfram language, which is something like a strpped version of >> > Mathematica, is included in the raspbian distribution. So, would >> > raspberry >> > pi support fit into the mission statement? >> >> Definitely, yes it does, without any question. >> >> -- William >> >> > >> > El lunes, 8 de diciembre de 2014 23:10:49 UTC+1, William escribió: >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Jean-Pierre Flori >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Monday, December 8, 2014 9:53:51 PM UTC+1, mmarco wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Maybe support for arm architecture would be relevant in that >> >> >> respect. >> >> > >> >> > We do support ARM, don't we? >> >> > >> >> > At least I'm able to compile Sage from scratch on a Raspberry Pi and >> >> > on >> >> > armv7+ as well. >> >> >> >> Awesome! And yes we do. >> >> >> >> Again, as this thread is titled "User Survey", let's say that the >> >> survey question might be: "Do you *care* about support for Sage on ARM >> >> devices such as Raspberry Pi, etc.?" >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> > Groups >> >> > "sage-devel" group. >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> >> > send >> >> > an >> >> > email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >> >> > To post to this group, send email to sage-...@googlegroups.com. >> >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. >> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> William Stein >> >> Professor of Mathematics >> >> University of Washington >> >> http://wstein.org >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups >> > "sage-devel" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> > an >> > email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >> > To post to this group, send email to sage-...@googlegroups.com. >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> >> -- >> William Stein >> Professor of Mathematics >> University of Washington >> http://wstein.org > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- William Stein Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
Hi! Concerning the support problematic for ARM, Windows etc: We should ask ourselfs if we need a more minimal Sage distribution, which is easily portable to ALL Platforms. The main problem with Sage on many platforms is, that some packages often fail to build. Especially C based packages as troublemakers. I absolutely don't want to close out these packages! But we should consider a subset of Sage (let's call it MiniSage) which is easier portable and more slender, but which contains enough functionality for the average user. This gives the developers more time to polish out problems with packages of the traditional Sage, while maintaining and improving functionality of the core set on the device in question. That would come to the following new structure: Minimal Packages (MiniSage)-> Core Packages (traditional Sage) -> optional Packages ... -Stefan On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 6:25:56 PM UTC+1, William wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 9:20 AM, mmarco > > wrote: > > Yes we do, but not as completely as x86. For instance the last version > that > > has an arm binary in the download page is 5.13. > > > > The Wolfram language, which is something like a strpped version of > > Mathematica, is included in the raspbian distribution. So, would > raspberry > > pi support fit into the mission statement? > > Definitely, yes it does, without any question. > > -- William > > > > > El lunes, 8 de diciembre de 2014 23:10:49 UTC+1, William escribió: > >> > >> On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Jean-Pierre Flori > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > On Monday, December 8, 2014 9:53:51 PM UTC+1, mmarco wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Maybe support for arm architecture would be relevant in that > respect. > >> > > >> > We do support ARM, don't we? > >> > > >> > At least I'm able to compile Sage from scratch on a Raspberry Pi and > on > >> > armv7+ as well. > >> > >> Awesome! And yes we do. > >> > >> Again, as this thread is titled "User Survey", let's say that the > >> survey question might be: "Do you *care* about support for Sage on ARM > >> devices such as Raspberry Pi, etc.?" > >> > >> William > >> > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> > Groups > >> > "sage-devel" group. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send > >> > an > >> > email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. > >> > To post to this group, send email to sage-...@googlegroups.com. > >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> William Stein > >> Professor of Mathematics > >> University of Washington > >> http://wstein.org > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "sage-devel" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an > > email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com . > > To post to this group, send email to sage-...@googlegroups.com > . > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > -- > William Stein > Professor of Mathematics > University of Washington > http://wstein.org > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 6:25:56 PM UTC+1, William wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 9:20 AM, mmarco > > wrote: > > Yes we do, but not as completely as x86. For instance the last version > that > > has an arm binary in the download page is 5.13. > > > > The Wolfram language, which is something like a strpped version of > > Mathematica, is included in the raspbian distribution. So, would > raspberry > > pi support fit into the mission statement? > > Definitely, yes it does, without any question. > > -- William > > So we need a raspberry pi buildbot... Who can afford it? :) (At least as long as we cannot properly cross-compile sage, which will surely not happen in the near future... though sage-on-gentoo and lmonade exist.) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 9:20 AM, mmarco wrote: > Yes we do, but not as completely as x86. For instance the last version that > has an arm binary in the download page is 5.13. > > The Wolfram language, which is something like a strpped version of > Mathematica, is included in the raspbian distribution. So, would raspberry > pi support fit into the mission statement? Definitely, yes it does, without any question. -- William > > El lunes, 8 de diciembre de 2014 23:10:49 UTC+1, William escribió: >> >> On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Jean-Pierre Flori >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > On Monday, December 8, 2014 9:53:51 PM UTC+1, mmarco wrote: >> >> >> >> Maybe support for arm architecture would be relevant in that respect. >> > >> > We do support ARM, don't we? >> > >> > At least I'm able to compile Sage from scratch on a Raspberry Pi and on >> > armv7+ as well. >> >> Awesome! And yes we do. >> >> Again, as this thread is titled "User Survey", let's say that the >> survey question might be: "Do you *care* about support for Sage on ARM >> devices such as Raspberry Pi, etc.?" >> >> William >> >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups >> > "sage-devel" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> > an >> > email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >> > To post to this group, send email to sage-...@googlegroups.com. >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> >> -- >> William Stein >> Professor of Mathematics >> University of Washington >> http://wstein.org > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- William Stein Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
Yes we do, but not as completely as x86. For instance the last version that has an arm binary in the download page is 5.13. The Wolfram language, which is something like a strpped version of Mathematica, is included in the raspbian distribution. So, would raspberry pi support fit into the mission statement? El lunes, 8 de diciembre de 2014 23:10:49 UTC+1, William escribió: > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Jean-Pierre Flori > wrote: > > > > > > On Monday, December 8, 2014 9:53:51 PM UTC+1, mmarco wrote: > >> > >> Maybe support for arm architecture would be relevant in that respect. > > > > We do support ARM, don't we? > > > > At least I'm able to compile Sage from scratch on a Raspberry Pi and on > > armv7+ as well. > > Awesome! And yes we do. > > Again, as this thread is titled "User Survey", let's say that the > survey question might be: "Do you *care* about support for Sage on ARM > devices such as Raspberry Pi, etc.?" > > William > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "sage-devel" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an > > email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com . > > To post to this group, send email to sage-...@googlegroups.com > . > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > -- > William Stein > Professor of Mathematics > University of Washington > http://wstein.org > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
> > Again, as this thread is titled "User Survey", let's say that the > survey question might be: "Do you *care* about support for Sage on ARM > devices such as Raspberry Pi, etc.?" > > Or *quick* usage on Internet-enabled devices that may not be able to run Sage very quickly (i.e., continuing updates to the sagecell+Android+iOS app ecosystem). Also, I agree that the energy use this is OT, though maybe not for this thread. Just because we can use technology doesn't mean we shouldn't. I think Sage (or a similar product) is, on the whole, beneficial, but I could imagine those whose analysis went the other way, and finding ways for Sage to use less power or hardware sounds awesome. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Jean-Pierre Flori wrote: > > > On Monday, December 8, 2014 9:53:51 PM UTC+1, mmarco wrote: >> >> Maybe support for arm architecture would be relevant in that respect. > > We do support ARM, don't we? > > At least I'm able to compile Sage from scratch on a Raspberry Pi and on > armv7+ as well. Awesome! And yes we do. Again, as this thread is titled "User Survey", let's say that the survey question might be: "Do you *care* about support for Sage on ARM devices such as Raspberry Pi, etc.?" William > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- William Stein Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
On Monday, December 8, 2014 9:53:51 PM UTC+1, mmarco wrote: > > Maybe support for arm architecture would be relevant in that respect. We do support ARM, don't we? At least I'm able to compile Sage from scratch on a Raspberry Pi and on armv7+ as well. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
Maybe support for arm architecture would be relevant in that respect. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 11:48 AM, parisse wrote: > > > Le lundi 8 décembre 2014 19:27:27 UTC+1, tdumont a écrit : >> >> >> >> These problems related to energy, ecology, and so on are certainly very >> interesting (my lab is a member of the association EcoInfo in France, >> so...). But be careful: people can rapidly decide that a discussion list >> is polluted, boring, and so on... an finally, leave. >> > > I raised the question about energy, because I think it's an important one > in choosing between local vs server centric model, a question discussed > earlier in this topic (windows version, use outside of research, control of > data, we could also add exam). For this reason, I really don't think it's > off-topic. I find your reaction a little bit strange, especially your final > sentence about moderation. +1 It's a relevant topic. We're brainstorming for ideas about what to put on various surveys. Asking a question of users about whether they are concerned about energy usage regarding use of Sage is very reasonable. William -- William Stein Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
Le lundi 8 décembre 2014 19:27:27 UTC+1, tdumont a écrit : > > > > These problems related to energy, ecology, and so on are certainly very > interesting (my lab is a member of the association EcoInfo in France, > so...). But be careful: people can rapidly decide that a discussion list > is polluted, boring, and so on... an finally, leave. > > I raised the question about energy, because I think it's an important one in choosing between local vs server centric model, a question discussed earlier in this topic (windows version, use outside of research, control of data, we could also add exam). For this reason, I really don't think it's off-topic. I find your reaction a little bit strange, especially your final sentence about moderation. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
2014-12-08 19:27 UTC+01:00, Thierry Dumont : > > From my point of view, the sage-devel list is turning a bit funny. Ok, > this is the end of the year but I do not think that people have started > to drink (at least, they certainly do not drink in front of their > computer). > > These problems related to energy, ecology, and so on are certainly very > interesting (my lab is a member of the association EcoInfo in France, > so...). But be careful: people can rapidly decide that a discussion list > is polluted, boring, and so on... an finally, leave. > > This discussion, after the very long and passionate one about the "code" > is a bit strange and certainly "hors sujet" as we say in > French(apologize: I cannot remember how to say it in English). +1 (off-topic) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
From my point of view, the sage-devel list is turning a bit funny. Ok, this is the end of the year but I do not think that people have started to drink (at least, they certainly do not drink in front of their computer). These problems related to energy, ecology, and so on are certainly very interesting (my lab is a member of the association EcoInfo in France, so...). But be careful: people can rapidly decide that a discussion list is polluted, boring, and so on... an finally, leave. This discussion, after the very long and passionate one about the "code" is a bit strange and certainly "hors sujet" as we say in French(apologize: I cannot remember how to say it in English). My experience with a list in France devoted to "calcul" (computations, in the sens of PDE solving and so on) is that, after a lot of unnecessary debates -even interesting-, the only possibility was to put the list under moderation. But ok, I like to read about the watts and computing :-) t.d. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. <>
Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
Le lundi 8 décembre 2014 17:56:14 UTC+1, William a écrit :
>
> If the question is to compute the energy used per request, it is
> unfair to compute the energy used by *all* of the internet ("the
> energy used outside google in the net"!). That can only give you a
> very non-tight upper bound.
>
This is clearly not what I mean. If google power consumption is 260MW, in
one day that's 260*24e6Wh, if they get 1e9 request (upper bound), that's
6.24Wh per request. Of course, Google does more than requests. But when you
do a request to google you are using more power than just Google servers.
Therefore I think that 16Wh per request is in the right range. Note that it
does not account for the client terminal and for building the
infrastructure.
But the real question was for the SMC or a server centric install of sage
for teaching use, perhaps you have some figures (how many server does one
need for how many people).
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 8:55 AM, Simon King wrote: > Hi, > > On 2014-12-08, parisse wrote: >> Le lundi 8 d=C3=A9cembre 2014 16:24:30 UTC+1, Emmanuel Charpentier a =C3=A9= >> crit : >>> >>> How do you reach your estimate of 16 Wh/Google search ? Any source ? >>> >>> In French: >> http://www.planetoscope.com/electronique/980-emissions-de-co2-par-les-reche= >> rches-sur-google.html >> 7g CO2/request. >> Google's own published estimates are much lower (0.2g/request), but I'm not= >>=20 >> sure we can trust them.=20 > > I think it would be fair to compare 16 Wh/Google search with the amount > of energy that a human consumes when searching in the library for one > hour, walking around carrying heavy books. I guess it would be similar to > "doing shopping", which is about 60 kcal per 15 minutes according to > http://laufleistung.net/kalorienverbrauch-berechnen/. Thus, it is 240 kcal > in one hour, which makes about 280 Wh. > > I don't know how much CO2 a human emmits in one hour. This is discussed in the link I posted: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/powering-google-search.html which claims "a Google search uses just about the same amount of energy that your body burns in ten seconds." > > Best regards, > Simon > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- William Stein Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: User Survey
On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 8:24 AM, parisse wrote:
>
>
> Le lundi 8 décembre 2014 16:24:30 UTC+1, Emmanuel Charpentier a écrit :
>>
>> How do you reach your estimate of 16 Wh/Google search ? Any source ?
>>
> In French:
> http://www.planetoscope.com/electronique/980-emissions-de-co2-par-les-recherches-sur-google.html
> 7g CO2/request.
> Google's own published estimates are much lower (0.2g/request), but I'm not
> sure we can trust them.
Here is Google's published estimate:
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/powering-google-search.html
The published estimate ends with "The Sunday Times clarified its
article on the energy consumed by a Google search, accepting our
calculation that a single search accounts for about 0.2g of carbon."
> Google power consumption is 260e6 W according to
> http://inhabitat.com/infographic-how-much-energy-does-google-use/google-energy-use-infographic-2/
> for a little more than 200e6 requests to 1 billion requests per day (who
> knows), that's 6Wh to a little less than 30Wh per request. Of course Google
> does more than answering to requests, but one should also take care of all
> the energy used outside google in the net.
If the question is to compute the energy used per request, it is
unfair to compute the energy used by *all* of the internet ("the
energy used outside google in the net"!). That can only give you a
very non-tight upper bound.
> Therefore the 16Wh per request
> estimate is probably in the right range.
> I'm curious what the estimates would be for a server-centric computing model
> for teaching.
>
> --
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--
William Stein
Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org
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[sage-devel] Re: User Survey
Hi, On 2014-12-08, parisse wrote: > Le lundi 8 d=C3=A9cembre 2014 16:24:30 UTC+1, Emmanuel Charpentier a =C3=A9= > crit : >> >> How do you reach your estimate of 16 Wh/Google search ? Any source ? >> >> In French: > http://www.planetoscope.com/electronique/980-emissions-de-co2-par-les-reche= > rches-sur-google.html > 7g CO2/request. > Google's own published estimates are much lower (0.2g/request), but I'm not= >=20 > sure we can trust them.=20 I think it would be fair to compare 16 Wh/Google search with the amount of energy that a human consumes when searching in the library for one hour, walking around carrying heavy books. I guess it would be similar to "doing shopping", which is about 60 kcal per 15 minutes according to http://laufleistung.net/kalorienverbrauch-berechnen/. Thus, it is 240 kcal in one hour, which makes about 280 Wh. I don't know how much CO2 a human emmits in one hour. Best regards, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: User Survey
Le lundi 8 décembre 2014 16:24:30 UTC+1, Emmanuel Charpentier a écrit : > > How do you reach your estimate of 16 Wh/Google search ? Any source ? > > In French: http://www.planetoscope.com/electronique/980-emissions-de-co2-par-les-recherches-sur-google.html 7g CO2/request. Google's own published estimates are much lower (0.2g/request), but I'm not sure we can trust them. Google power consumption is 260e6 W according to http://inhabitat.com/infographic-how-much-energy-does-google-use/google-energy-use-infographic-2/ for a little more than 200e6 requests to 1 billion requests per day (who knows), that's 6Wh to a little less than 30Wh per request. Of course Google does more than answering to requests, but one should also take care of all the energy used outside google in the net. Therefore the 16Wh per request estimate is probably in the right range. I'm curious what the estimates would be for a server-centric computing model for teaching. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: User Survey
How do you reach your estimate of 16 Wh/Google search ? Any source ? -- Emmanuel Charpentier Le lundi 8 décembre 2014 14:44:55 UTC+1, parisse a écrit : > > > > Le vendredi 5 décembre 2014 21:14:54 UTC+1, maldun a écrit : >> >> >> I don't think that the functionality of Sage is the big problem, in fact >> Sage has a great features for zero cost. >> >> > Nothing is really free. > My estimate for a google search is an energy cost of 16Wh per search > (equivalent to 7g CO2). I wonder how much it is for a SMC one-cell > computation or a distant sage server one-cell computation. If it's about > the same order size, then it's more than a local PC computation (you can > run a laptop about 1/4 hour with the same energy) and much more than a > calculator computation : you can run a CAS calculator a whole day with > 16Wh. If you make 60 distant computations during a lesson, it would cost > about 1kWh if my estimate is correct (energy cost for the local terminal > not included). > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: User Survey
Le vendredi 5 décembre 2014 21:14:54 UTC+1, maldun a écrit : > > > I don't think that the functionality of Sage is the big problem, in fact > Sage has a great features for zero cost. > > Nothing is really free. My estimate for a google search is an energy cost of 16Wh per search (equivalent to 7g CO2). I wonder how much it is for a SMC one-cell computation or a distant sage server one-cell computation. If it's about the same order size, then it's more than a local PC computation (you can run a laptop about 1/4 hour with the same energy) and much more than a calculator computation : you can run a CAS calculator a whole day with 16Wh. If you make 60 distant computations during a lesson, it would cost about 1kWh if my estimate is correct (energy cost for the local terminal not included). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
