Re: [sage-support] Re: Sagecell : is it possible to install the Wolfram engine ?
On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 11:34 AM Emmanuel Charpentier wrote: > Do you think that the same loophole would be applicable to Sagecelll > (different structure...) wrt to international law, wrt american law, and with > wrt to european law ? > I'm not sure it's relevant, since you can't install something like Wolfram Engine into sagecell server as an end user. >> >> -- William >> >> > >> > Dima >> > >> > > This is a >> > > license aimed at increasing the number of reasons people will buy >> > > Mathematica, by being nice to developers who are building products >> > > that use Mathematica. >> > > >> > > The discussions like this >> > > >> > > https://mathematica.stackexchange.com/questions/274333/wolfram-engine-jupyter-stackrel-mathematica >> > > >> > > (and the corresponding reddit thread) seem to me to be wildly >> > > optimistic in their interpretation. >> > > >> > > Anyway, I'm not a lawyer, though I applaud Wolfram, Inc. for posting >> > > that very clearly worded plain language FAQ instead of just some >> > > massive wall of legalese. >> > > >> > > William >> > > >> > > > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:24:15 PM UTC-5 kcrisman wrote: >> > > >>> >> > > >>> The same could also apply to Cocalc ... except that Cocalc is also a >> > > >>> commercial product, therefore excluded from Wolfram terms for the >> > > >>> *gratis* Wolfram engine... >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> Technically if someone ran a Cocalc instance (say, from a Docker >> > > >> image) that was not commercial, maybe that would be okay? (IANAL as >> > > >> usual.) >> > > > >> > > > -- >> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > > > Groups "sage-support" group. >> > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> > > > an email to sage-support...@googlegroups.com. >> > > > To view this discussion on the web visit >> > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/58eebc97-408e-4511-bbc8-c1a61d19249en%40googlegroups.com. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > William (http://wstein.org) >> > > >> > > -- >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > > Groups "sage-support" group. >> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> > > an email to sage-support...@googlegroups.com. >> > > To view this discussion on the web visit >> > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/CACLE5GBGVdaisv4SN0g2ZPZXw%3DksWWv1ZXhX8JhaCq3F02xo7w%40mail.gmail.com. >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> > "sage-support" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> > email to sage-support...@googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit >> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/CAAWYfq02EOCja16ceAxgMxx-EycXGybPjz9j_HMd%2B%2BKo%3DBUm0g%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> >> >> -- >> William (http://wstein.org) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-support" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-support+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/b2c2cf16-e3ce-4172-b1c5-31e349a3ec4fn%40googlegroups.com. -- William (http://wstein.org) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-support" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-support+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/CACLE5GAW%2Bzn%3DNtWsjB9FGbLz8DJgwDcKkb60f9B2dCHKMkFZww%40mail.gmail.com.
Re: [sage-support] Re: Sagecell : is it possible to install the Wolfram engine ?
William, Le mercredi 30 novembre 2022 à 18:00:22 UTC+1, wst...@gmail.com a écrit : > On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 1:26 AM Dima Pasechnik wrote: > > > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 7:59 PM William Stein wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 11:25 AM kcrisman wrote: > > > > > > > > Though see this: > https://www.wolfram.com/engine/faq/#can-i-use-the-free-engine-in-an-open-source-project > > > > > > > That says " However, the Free Engine license does not permit end-user > > > use, except when this use is for further development. For end-user > > > uses, users must have a separate license for the Wolfram Engine." > > > which seems to me to make it crystal clear that it would not be legal > > > to install cocalc-docker (or even Jupyter notebook) and along with > > > Wolfram Engine and use it for any purpose except for development of > > > cocalc or Jupyter itself (i.e., to make sure the UI works). > > > Everything in that FAQ is about "developing a product". > > > > I'm not a lawyer, but in Wolfram's mindset a scientific paper is a > > product, too, no ? > > (Especially assuming it has enough self-promotion hype in it - not > > sure, if this is a joke :-)) > > > > Would putting Wolfram Engine on cocalc with a warning saying "read > > their terms of use" be > > too dangerous, risking more than just being slapped with a "cease and > > desist" letter? > > Dima, > > I suspect something fairly close to what you suggest would be legal. > Namely, > you can create your own CoCalc project, then you download Wolfram > Engine (or any other software) to your computer, then upload it into > CoCalc. > Then use it. Our terms of service don't prevent you from uploading your > own binaries and using them. It's not different to you creating > a VM on DigitalOcean or something, and installing Wolfram Engine or any > other > software there. People have in the past done exactly the above with > Magma, Maple and the > actual full Mathematica. Do you think that the same loophole would be applicable to Sagecelll (different structure...) wrt to international law, wrt american law, and with wrt to european law ? > -- William > > > > > Dima > > > > > This is a > > > license aimed at increasing the number of reasons people will buy > > > Mathematica, by being nice to developers who are building products > > > that use Mathematica. > > > > > > The discussions like this > > > > > > > https://mathematica.stackexchange.com/questions/274333/wolfram-engine-jupyter-stackrel-mathematica > > > > > > > (and the corresponding reddit thread) seem to me to be wildly > > > optimistic in their interpretation. > > > > > > Anyway, I'm not a lawyer, though I applaud Wolfram, Inc. for posting > > > that very clearly worded plain language FAQ instead of just some > > > massive wall of legalese. > > > > > > William > > > > > > > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:24:15 PM UTC-5 kcrisman wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> The same could also apply to Cocalc ... except that Cocalc is also > a commercial product, therefore excluded from Wolfram terms for the > *gratis* Wolfram engine... > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Technically if someone ran a Cocalc instance (say, from a Docker > image) that was not commercial, maybe that would be okay? (IANAL as usual.) > > > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "sage-support" group. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to sage-support...@googlegroups.com. > > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/58eebc97-408e-4511-bbc8-c1a61d19249en%40googlegroups.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > William (http://wstein.org) > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "sage-support" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to sage-support...@googlegroups.com. > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/CACLE5GBGVdaisv4SN0g2ZPZXw%3DksWWv1ZXhX8JhaCq3F02xo7w%40mail.gmail.com. > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "sage-support" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to sage-support...@googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/CAAWYfq02EOCja16ceAxgMxx-EycXGybPjz9j_HMd%2B%2BKo%3DBUm0g%40mail.gmail.com. > > > > > > -- > William (http://wstein.org) > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-support" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-support+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit
Re: [sage-support] Re: Sagecell : is it possible to install the Wolfram engine ?
On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 1:26 AM Dima Pasechnik wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 7:59 PM William Stein wrote: > > > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 11:25 AM kcrisman wrote: > > > > > > Though see this: > > > https://www.wolfram.com/engine/faq/#can-i-use-the-free-engine-in-an-open-source-project > > > > That says " However, the Free Engine license does not permit end-user > > use, except when this use is for further development. For end-user > > uses, users must have a separate license for the Wolfram Engine." > > which seems to me to make it crystal clear that it would not be legal > > to install cocalc-docker (or even Jupyter notebook) and along with > > Wolfram Engine and use it for any purpose except for development of > > cocalc or Jupyter itself (i.e., to make sure the UI works). > > Everything in that FAQ is about "developing a product". > > I'm not a lawyer, but in Wolfram's mindset a scientific paper is a > product, too, no ? > (Especially assuming it has enough self-promotion hype in it - not > sure, if this is a joke :-)) > > Would putting Wolfram Engine on cocalc with a warning saying "read > their terms of use" be > too dangerous, risking more than just being slapped with a "cease and > desist" letter? Dima, I suspect something fairly close to what you suggest would be legal. Namely, you can create your own CoCalc project, then you download Wolfram Engine (or any other software) to your computer, then upload it into CoCalc. Then use it. Our terms of service don't prevent you from uploading your own binaries and using them. It's not different to you creating a VM on DigitalOcean or something, and installing Wolfram Engine or any other software there. People have in the past done exactly the above with Magma, Maple and the actual full Mathematica. -- William > > Dima > > > This is a > > license aimed at increasing the number of reasons people will buy > > Mathematica, by being nice to developers who are building products > > that use Mathematica. > > > > The discussions like this > > > > https://mathematica.stackexchange.com/questions/274333/wolfram-engine-jupyter-stackrel-mathematica > > > > (and the corresponding reddit thread) seem to me to be wildly > > optimistic in their interpretation. > > > > Anyway, I'm not a lawyer, though I applaud Wolfram, Inc. for posting > > that very clearly worded plain language FAQ instead of just some > > massive wall of legalese. > > > > William > > > > > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:24:15 PM UTC-5 kcrisman wrote: > > >>> > > >>> The same could also apply to Cocalc ... except that Cocalc is also a > > >>> commercial product, therefore excluded from Wolfram terms for the > > >>> *gratis* Wolfram engine... > > >> > > >> > > >> Technically if someone ran a Cocalc instance (say, from a Docker image) > > >> that was not commercial, maybe that would be okay? (IANAL as usual.) > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > > "sage-support" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > > email to sage-support+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/58eebc97-408e-4511-bbc8-c1a61d19249en%40googlegroups.com. > > > > > > > > -- > > William (http://wstein.org) > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "sage-support" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to sage-support+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/CACLE5GBGVdaisv4SN0g2ZPZXw%3DksWWv1ZXhX8JhaCq3F02xo7w%40mail.gmail.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-support" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-support+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/CAAWYfq02EOCja16ceAxgMxx-EycXGybPjz9j_HMd%2B%2BKo%3DBUm0g%40mail.gmail.com. -- William (http://wstein.org) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-support" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-support+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/CACLE5GCS7ne%3DBpLcvcJTLVz55b-u7jYoCwueSsha8x_hsAPrPg%40mail.gmail.com.
Re: [sage-support] Re: Sagecell : is it possible to install the Wolfram engine ?
*Timeo advocatos a communa lege loquentes... *The relevant precedents in (what passes for) american law strongly hint at a very complicated resolution (which would enrich lawyers and nobody else...). I do not know if William's analysis is right, but it seems to be *prudent*, and therefore a sound advice for preventive behavior. This is even stronger in his case, since his company *sells* Cocalc access/use... this point may be weaker for Sagecell (nothing is *sold*...), but I wouldn't bet on it : as far as I know, what passes for legal logic has never been proved complete nor consistent. Where is Kurt Gödel when you need him ;-)... Le mercredi 30 novembre 2022 à 10:26:17 UTC+1, dim...@gmail.com a écrit : > On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 7:59 PM William Stein wrote: > > > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 11:25 AM kcrisman wrote: > > > > > > Though see this: > https://www.wolfram.com/engine/faq/#can-i-use-the-free-engine-in-an-open-source-project > > > > That says " However, the Free Engine license does not permit end-user > > use, except when this use is for further development. For end-user > > uses, users must have a separate license for the Wolfram Engine." > > which seems to me to make it crystal clear that it would not be legal > > to install cocalc-docker (or even Jupyter notebook) and along with > > Wolfram Engine and use it for any purpose except for development of > > cocalc or Jupyter itself (i.e., to make sure the UI works). > > Everything in that FAQ is about "developing a product". > > I'm not a lawyer, but in Wolfram's mindset a scientific paper is a > product, too, no ? > (Especially assuming it has enough self-promotion hype in it - not > sure, if this is a joke :-)) > > Would putting Wolfram Engine on cocalc with a warning saying "read > their terms of use" be > too dangerous, risking more than just being slapped with a "cease and > desist" letter? > > Dima > > > This is a > > license aimed at increasing the number of reasons people will buy > > Mathematica, by being nice to developers who are building products > > that use Mathematica. > > > > The discussions like this > > > > > https://mathematica.stackexchange.com/questions/274333/wolfram-engine-jupyter-stackrel-mathematica > > > > (and the corresponding reddit thread) seem to me to be wildly > > optimistic in their interpretation. > > > > Anyway, I'm not a lawyer, though I applaud Wolfram, Inc. for posting > > that very clearly worded plain language FAQ instead of just some > > massive wall of legalese. > > > > William > > > > > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:24:15 PM UTC-5 kcrisman wrote: > > >>> > > >>> The same could also apply to Cocalc ... except that Cocalc is also a > commercial product, therefore excluded from Wolfram terms for the *gratis* > Wolfram engine... > > >> > > >> > > >> Technically if someone ran a Cocalc instance (say, from a Docker > image) that was not commercial, maybe that would be okay? (IANAL as usual.) > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "sage-support" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to sage-support...@googlegroups.com. > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/58eebc97-408e-4511-bbc8-c1a61d19249en%40googlegroups.com > . > > > > > > > > -- > > William (http://wstein.org) > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "sage-support" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to sage-support...@googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/CACLE5GBGVdaisv4SN0g2ZPZXw%3DksWWv1ZXhX8JhaCq3F02xo7w%40mail.gmail.com > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-support" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-support+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/270e6a1d-6e00-4170-b2c1-0b2fcb8670cbn%40googlegroups.com.
Re: [sage-support] Re: Sagecell : is it possible to install the Wolfram engine ?
On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 7:59 PM William Stein wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 11:25 AM kcrisman wrote: > > > > Though see this: > > https://www.wolfram.com/engine/faq/#can-i-use-the-free-engine-in-an-open-source-project > > That says " However, the Free Engine license does not permit end-user > use, except when this use is for further development. For end-user > uses, users must have a separate license for the Wolfram Engine." > which seems to me to make it crystal clear that it would not be legal > to install cocalc-docker (or even Jupyter notebook) and along with > Wolfram Engine and use it for any purpose except for development of > cocalc or Jupyter itself (i.e., to make sure the UI works). > Everything in that FAQ is about "developing a product". I'm not a lawyer, but in Wolfram's mindset a scientific paper is a product, too, no ? (Especially assuming it has enough self-promotion hype in it - not sure, if this is a joke :-)) Would putting Wolfram Engine on cocalc with a warning saying "read their terms of use" be too dangerous, risking more than just being slapped with a "cease and desist" letter? Dima > This is a > license aimed at increasing the number of reasons people will buy > Mathematica, by being nice to developers who are building products > that use Mathematica. > > The discussions like this > > https://mathematica.stackexchange.com/questions/274333/wolfram-engine-jupyter-stackrel-mathematica > > (and the corresponding reddit thread) seem to me to be wildly > optimistic in their interpretation. > > Anyway, I'm not a lawyer, though I applaud Wolfram, Inc. for posting > that very clearly worded plain language FAQ instead of just some > massive wall of legalese. > > William > > > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:24:15 PM UTC-5 kcrisman wrote: > >>> > >>> The same could also apply to Cocalc ... except that Cocalc is also a > >>> commercial product, therefore excluded from Wolfram terms for the > >>> *gratis* Wolfram engine... > >> > >> > >> Technically if someone ran a Cocalc instance (say, from a Docker image) > >> that was not commercial, maybe that would be okay? (IANAL as usual.) > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "sage-support" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to sage-support+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/58eebc97-408e-4511-bbc8-c1a61d19249en%40googlegroups.com. > > > > -- > William (http://wstein.org) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-support" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-support+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/CACLE5GBGVdaisv4SN0g2ZPZXw%3DksWWv1ZXhX8JhaCq3F02xo7w%40mail.gmail.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-support" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-support+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/CAAWYfq02EOCja16ceAxgMxx-EycXGybPjz9j_HMd%2B%2BKo%3DBUm0g%40mail.gmail.com.
Re: [sage-support] Re: Sagecell : is it possible to install the Wolfram engine ?
BTW: I have used the Mathematica package on a Raspberry Pi3+ over vnc, and the setup works quite well. It's not a brain dead version; it knows things about Generalized Hypergeometric functions; and gives answers in a reasonable time. It's nice to know that I can send off a problem and have "somebody else" (the Raspberry) work on it while I do something else :) I presume that this is legal? I didn't do stress tests though; I normally use SageMath. rrogers On 11/19/22 14:58, William Stein wrote: xcept when this use is for further development. For end-user -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-support" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-support+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/f6242c64-a09c-7cb7-5f56-fb9b6820f7a6%40gmail.com.
Re: [sage-support] Re: Sagecell : is it possible to install the Wolfram engine ?
On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 11:25 AM kcrisman wrote: > > Though see this: > https://www.wolfram.com/engine/faq/#can-i-use-the-free-engine-in-an-open-source-project That says " However, the Free Engine license does not permit end-user use, except when this use is for further development. For end-user uses, users must have a separate license for the Wolfram Engine." which seems to me to make it crystal clear that it would not be legal to install cocalc-docker (or even Jupyter notebook) and along with Wolfram Engine and use it for any purpose except for development of cocalc or Jupyter itself (i.e., to make sure the UI works). Everything in that FAQ is about "developing a product". This is a license aimed at increasing the number of reasons people will buy Mathematica, by being nice to developers who are building products that use Mathematica. The discussions like this https://mathematica.stackexchange.com/questions/274333/wolfram-engine-jupyter-stackrel-mathematica (and the corresponding reddit thread) seem to me to be wildly optimistic in their interpretation. Anyway, I'm not a lawyer, though I applaud Wolfram, Inc. for posting that very clearly worded plain language FAQ instead of just some massive wall of legalese. William > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:24:15 PM UTC-5 kcrisman wrote: >>> >>> The same could also apply to Cocalc ... except that Cocalc is also a >>> commercial product, therefore excluded from Wolfram terms for the *gratis* >>> Wolfram engine... >> >> >> Technically if someone ran a Cocalc instance (say, from a Docker image) that >> was not commercial, maybe that would be okay? (IANAL as usual.) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-support" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-support+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/58eebc97-408e-4511-bbc8-c1a61d19249en%40googlegroups.com. -- William (http://wstein.org) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-support" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-support+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-support/CACLE5GBGVdaisv4SN0g2ZPZXw%3DksWWv1ZXhX8JhaCq3F02xo7w%40mail.gmail.com.
