Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
SUZANNE MACDONALD wrote: Interestingly Skinner was playing them much closer to that of a classically trained fiddler unfamiliar with the tradition, time ratio 1:1:2, that is to say exactly as written. David Johnson says that the birl in Scotland is also played in the time ratio 1:1:6 Alexander Is that surprising? I find it to be not in the least bit surprising. Skinner did alot of things with his playing that were very "classical" in nature. Toby Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Jimmy Allan
Derek Hoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nigel whinged: ...proof that it's YOUR fault... I sometimes usually play it in D, when wee pipers are about. I thought you'd realise that. Anyway, when did you ever believe anything *I* told you? You'll be saying it's a Bobby tune next. Hurumph! Splutter! Why I oughta... -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
Toby Ryder wrote: Is that surprising? I find it to be not in the least bit surprising. Skinner did alot of things with his playing that were very "classical" in nature. For me it is surprising. Skinner was hardly unfamiliar with the tradition. I find that the "classical" label is placed on Skinner too frequently and without foundation and always with a negative connotation. I also fnd it odd that this view is held by many people in Cape Breton and yet they are playing more of his tunes than anybody else's. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
SUZANNE MACDONALD wrote: Toby Ryder wrote: Is that surprising? I find it to be not in the least bit surprising. Skinner did alot of things with his playing that were very "classical" in nature. For me it is surprising. Skinner was hardly unfamiliar with the tradition. I find that the "classical" label is placed on Skinner too frequently and without foundation and always with a negative connotation. I also fnd it odd that this view is held by many people in Cape Breton and yet they are playing more of his tunes than anybody else's. Alexander Have you heard those old wax recordings of Skinner? That's what makes me think of him as trying to be a "classical" sort of player. It's true that alot of Skinner tunes get played in Cape Breton, I play alot of Skinner tunes also, however they make them sound like Cape Breton tunes, as opposed to the way that Skinner played them. Buddy MacMaster for certain plays the Spey in the Spate differently then Skinner would have. I am glad that written music is open to different intrepretation. BTW, my surname is not Ryder. I am a Rider, a MacDougall and a Yang, but not a Ryder :-) Toby Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
Toby Rider wrote: ...Have you heard those old wax recordings of Skinner? That's what makes me think of him as trying to be a "classical" sort of player... That's interesting. I've always thought that the reason Skinner played like that was stylistic and a product of its time. Listening to James Dickie's recordings yields a similar impression, but I don't associate it with a classical leaning. I'm not the greatest fan of Skinner's style, but I go along with Alexander in being puzzled at criticism towards his compositions. He was, in my opinion, a brilliant composer of tunes, and I don't think he could have written so many that have been accepted into the repertoire without having had a great understanding and respect for the tradition. ...Buddy MacMaster for certain plays the Spey in the Spate differently then Skinner would have... Absolutely, and let's celebrate that. So does Dick Gaughan. And Aly Bain, Des Donnelly, Craobh Rua, Jimmy Shand, Dave Swarbrick, Boys of the Lough, Sean Maguire, Bill Lamey, Jerry Holland, Donna Hinds, Graham Townsend, and, if I may blow my own trumpet, so does Nigel Gatherer on a mandolin showcase CD produced in the USA. -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin' once more
Regarding birls and Skinner. My former ethnomusicology tutor Dr Peter Cooke of the School of Scottish Studies was a bit of a pioneer in using technology as an aid to understanding the fiddle traditions - hence my own interest in the scientific approach. Peter's view is that the human ear really needs all the help it can get in transcribing and analysing such music. You may be familiar with his book on the Shetland fiddle which includes sound waves of fiddlers there and I remember him showing me a huge roll of paper which represented the waveform of a recording of Tommie Potts being transcribed by Michael O'Sullibhean as part of his PhD thesis which was being examined by Peter. Anyway, I've measured a few birls selected at random from a number of Cape Breton fiddlers (using the 1970s Topic album of tapes by John Shaw) and I conclude that, if anything, the birls are in fact longer than the Skinner ones I looked at previously (although there could be a speeding up of the Skinner recording due to the mechanical recording and playback process). Furthermore, the general ratio of the three note lengths would appear to be close to 1:1:3 which is what I measured Skinner at. The Skinner birl seems to be very crisply executed with the first two notes almost precisely the same length while there may be a bit more variation in the Cape Breton ones with the first just a bit shorted than the second - it is difficult to be precise here. Listening to the Cape Breton record (its one of the few Cape Breton fiddle disks I don't get tired listening to) I note that the birl often precedes a long note - am I correct? If so then it might be possible that the ear links the third note with that which follows - if it does this could result in the ratio 1:1:6 or so. Hardly a scientific sample but what do you think? I can post some more MP3s to explain if necessary. The more of Skinner's playing I listen to the more of a fan I become. Yes, he was bilingual in both art and traditional music and he had personality traits which many find hard to stomach, but, hey, he could certainly birl and I'd have shared a drop of Talisker with him anytime - I probably would not take my fiddle out of its case though - I've read what he has said about sloppy, untutored fiddlers! Birl on. Stuart Eydmann Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, SUZANNE MACDONALD wrote: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:33:01 -0400 From: SUZANNE MACDONALD [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [scots-l] Birlin' Toby Ryder wrote: Is that surprising? I find it to be not in the least bit surprising. Skinner did alot of things with his playing that were very "classical" in nature. For me it is surprising. Skinner was hardly unfamiliar with the tradition. I find that the "classical" label is placed on Skinner too frequently and without foundation and always with a negative connotation. I also fnd it odd that this view is held by many people in Cape Breton and yet they are playing more of his tunes than anybody else's. Alexander With all due respect, Alexander, this last stetement completely baffles me, and for the sake of learning I'd really appreciate some clarification. Yes, there is a common body of Skinner's tunes floating around in the Cape Breton repertoire - airs, reels, and some moderate and slow strathspeys - and of course the variations he composed for Tullochgorm. I'm aware of those. However it seems to me that at the dances and concerts I've been to on the island, and on the recordings I have, there is a sampling of Skinner tunes, but the Gows', the Lowes', Marshall's and MacIntosh's to name a few of the older composers. Among the more recent composers whose tunes I've frequently heard played in those venues are Dan R., John Campbell, Donald Angus, Kinnon and Joey Beaton, Jerry Holland, Brenda Stubbert.. the list goes on. However if I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like you're saying that there are more Skinner tunes in the Cape Breton repertoire than of any of the composers I just named off. That puzzles because it doesn't seem to line up with what little experience I've had of the tradition. Could you please explain further? Thanks, Wendy P.S. and what about that one composer named "Traditional"? I always thought the biggest chunk of the CB repertoire were his tunes.. :-) Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
Wendy Galovich wrote: However it seems to me that at the dances and concerts I've been to on the island, and on the recordings I have, there is a sampling of Skinner tunes, but the Gows', the Lowes', Marshall's and MacIntosh's to name a few of the older composers. Among the more recent composers whose tunes I've frequently heard played in those venues are Dan R., John Campbell, Donald Angus, Kinnon and Joey Beaton, Jerry Holland, Brenda Stubbert.. the list goes on. However if I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like you're saying that there are more Skinner tunes in the Cape Breton repertoire than of any of the composers I just named off. That puzzles because it doesn't seem to line up with what little experience I've had of the tradition. Could you please explain further? The Gows published about 300 tunes [infamous for plagiarizing some of them] , Marshall about 250, Skinner about 600, Lowes collection is mostly traditional compositions. Skinner was not only the most prolific composer but he and Marshall are in a class by themselves. Winston Fitzgerald was, in the view of many, Cape Breton's most influential fiddler. If you check "Winston Fitzgerald, A Collection of Fiddle Tunes", edited by Paul Cranford, you will find that Winston's most popular composers were; Skinner, Henderson [ J. Murdock] Dan R. Mac Donald and Marshall in that order with Skinner having more tunes than all the others combined. Many of the local composes you list have added significantly to the repertoire. As you point out most of these are of relatively recent vintage. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
SUZANNE MACDONALD wrote: Winston Fitzgerald was, in the view of many, Cape Breton's most influential fiddler. If you check "Winston Fitzgerald, A Collection of Fiddle Tunes", edited by Paul Cranford, you will find that Winston's most popular composers were; Skinner, Henderson [ J. Murdock] Dan R. Mac Donald and Marshall in that order with Skinner having more tunes than all the others combined. Many of the local composes you list have added significantly to the repertoire. As you point out most of these are of relatively recent vintage. Alexander I'm glad you mentioned this about Winston, who was not of Scottish descent (Irish and French), nor from Inverness County. So by strict definition he did not "have it in the blood". It just goes to show what provincial idiots those folks are who are still insisting that if you aren't 100% Scottish and you aren't from Inverness County, that your music is subpar and basically worthless. Anyone who doesn't believe me, just post something similiar to what I just said on the cb-music list and count how many flames you will receive. Toby Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, SUZANNE MACDONALD wrote: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:29:25 -0400 From: SUZANNE MACDONALD [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [scots-l] Birlin' Wendy Galovich wrote: However it seems to me that at the dances and concerts I've been to on the island, and on the recordings I have, there is a sampling of Skinner tunes, but the Gows', the Lowes', Marshall's and MacIntosh's to name a few of the older composers. Among the more recent composers whose tunes I've frequently heard played in those venues are Dan R., John Campbell, Donald Angus, Kinnon and Joey Beaton, Jerry Holland, Brenda Stubbert.. the list goes on. However if I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like you're saying that there are more Skinner tunes in the Cape Breton repertoire than of any of the composers I just named off. That puzzles because it doesn't seem to line up with what little experience I've had of the tradition. Could you please explain further? The Gows published about 300 tunes [infamous for plagiarizing some of them] , Marshall about 250, Skinner about 600, Lowes collection is mostly traditional compositions. Skinner was not only the most prolific composer but he and Marshall are in a class by themselves. Winston Fitzgerald was, in the view of many, Cape Breton's most influential fiddler. If you check "Winston Fitzgerald, A Collection of Fiddle Tunes", edited by Paul Cranford, you will find that Winston's most popular composers were; Skinner, Henderson [ J. Murdock] Dan R. Mac Donald and Marshall in that order with Skinner having more tunes than all the others combined. Many of the local composes you list have added significantly to the repertoire. As you point out most of these are of relatively recent vintage. Okay, if you're speaking from a "Winston perspective" I can understand your comments better. I do have the book you mention and a number of his recordings. And there is no denying the impact Winston's playing has had on the present generation, and some of their choices of tunes. My question still isn't quite cleared up, however, because when I asked it I wasn't thinking of just one player (however influential), but all of the Cape Breton fiddlers I've been fortunate enough to hear either in person or on recordings. Also the sheer number of tunes by each composer doesn't really answer the question of how many of them actually get played, how often, and in what venues. The other unanswered piece of the question, which I didn't spell out (my fault!), is where do Skinner's compositions fit into Cape Breton step dance tradition - specifically the strathspeys. The reason I'm still questioning this is that while I can think of quite a few "listening strathspeys" by Skinner, I can only come up with only one that is sometimes associated with him that is commonly played for step dancers - Devil in the Kitchen - but The Scottish Violinist credits a W.M. Ross for the composition, and Skinner for the fiddle arrangement. So perhaps looking at it from that viewpoint is my particular "tunnel vision".. but the step dancing strathspey stands out in such sharp relief for me as an important, distinctive part of the Cape Breton musical tradition that I still don't see Skinner as a significant influence on *that* part of it. Fair enough? Wendy Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
