Re: Doctor bashing - UPDATE
>By the way, list, I lost another in a long line of friends with my >disease on Friday. He was only 27 and believed in and fully trusted his >"doctor" - the same "doctor" I trusted for most of my years, which I >will be dumping next week. The sickening thing about it is that this >"doctor" is viewed with god-like respect, and yet he continues to lose >the patients that follow his advice the most!! Go figure. Suffice it to >say, he doesn't like *me* very much; I'm sure his arrogant ego will not >be bruised by my departure. >Dameon Smart man Dameon if you can't get the doctor to listen then find one that will... Take Care Reid -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing summary...
>> 1.Dan: Thumbs down >> 2.bjs: Thumbs down >> 3.Tom: Thumbs down >> 4. >> 5. Are we saying what we think of doctors? I give one big finger to the jerks and one thumbs up to the ones that care.. Take Care Reid -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing - UPDATE
Not to drag this out any longer than it's already gone, but on the 10 PM news tonight, they reported on a national survey of doctors that was done by a medical insurance company and found that, in 50% of the cases (when averaged out), the "doctors" were negligent or outright wrong in their treatments!! The essential theme was that *maybe* it isn't such a good idea to trust your doctor after all! I guess my statement that 50-75% are a__holes wasn't too far from the mark, heh? By the way, list, I lost another in a long line of friends with my disease on Friday. He was only 27 and believed in and fully trusted his "doctor" - the same "doctor" I trusted for most of my years, which I will be dumping next week. The sickening thing about it is that this "doctor" is viewed with god-like respect, and yet he continues to lose the patients that follow his advice the most!! Go figure. Suffice it to say, he doesn't like *me* very much; I'm sure his arrogant ego will not be bruised by my departure. Dameon -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing summary...
> 1.Dan: Thumbs down > 2.bjs: Thumbs down > 3.Tom: Thumbs down > 4. > 5. -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing summary...
Daniel Holly wrote: > > I was just giving you a tough time Mike .As you know my vote would > be thumbs down[throw 'em to the lions] > If I had any doubts about it I don't now. > Listen to some of the doc-bashing on a Richard Schulze[master herbalist] > tape > for a real good entertainment value. > http://www.healthfree.com/schulze/herbs/colonic.htm > > Dan H. > > -Original Message- > From: M. G. Devour > To: silver-list@eskimo.com > Date: Saturday, July 11, 1998 1:33 PM > Subject: Re: Doctor bashing summary... > > On 10 Jul 98 at 13:16, Dan Holly wrote: > > > Your summary omitted one item > > How many thumbs up and how many thumbs down? > > > > Dan 1.Dan: Thumbs down 2.bjs: Thumbs down 3. 4. 5. -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing summary...
I was just giving you a tough time Mike .As you know my vote would be thumbs down[throw 'em to the lions] If I had any doubts about it I don't now. Listen to some of the doc-bashing on a Richard Schulze[master herbalist] tape for a real good entertainment value. http://www.healthfree.com/schulze/herbs/colonic.htm Dan H. -Original Message- From: M. G. Devour To: silver-list@eskimo.com Date: Saturday, July 11, 1998 1:33 PM Subject: Re: Doctor bashing summary... On 10 Jul 98 at 13:16, Dan Holly wrote: > Your summary omitted one item > How many thumbs up and how many thumbs down? > > Dan Good question, Dan. I didn't keep track. But I'm satisfied that my original guess was right: There's a substantial group on each side of the issue. Part of my job seems to include helping identify the serious hot-buttons we all have and figuring out just how far we can go without offending the rest with our own. It's going to require restraint and respectfulness in *both* camps. I don't see the need for either group to "win", but rather for both sides to teach and learn. Anybody who read the *reasons* for doctor bashing understands there are some deadly serious, positively vile problems to be dealt with in the medical/scientific mainstream. The survivors will realize from the other reactions here that they cannot condemn everyone and everything, either. The outcome will be a matured and, I hope, more effective attitude within us all. Just keep the cases and conclusions specific to your own experiences so there is *room* for the open minded doctor or scientist to help us. And don't give more credit than is due. The AMA and FDA are not going to do anything to help us, either! That's all I can ask. Be well, Mike D. [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [mdev...@mail.id.net ] [Speaking only for myself... ] -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing summary...
On 10 Jul 98 at 13:16, Dan Holly wrote: > Your summary omitted one item > How many thumbs up and how many thumbs down? > > Dan Good question, Dan. I didn't keep track. But I'm satisfied that my original guess was right: There's a substantial group on each side of the issue. Part of my job seems to include helping identify the serious hot-buttons we all have and figuring out just how far we can go without offending the rest with our own. It's going to require restraint and respectfulness in *both* camps. I don't see the need for either group to "win", but rather for both sides to teach and learn. Anybody who read the *reasons* for doctor bashing understands there are some deadly serious, positively vile problems to be dealt with in the medical/scientific mainstream. The survivors will realize from the other reactions here that they cannot condemn everyone and everything, either. The outcome will be a matured and, I hope, more effective attitude within us all. Just keep the cases and conclusions specific to your own experiences so there is *room* for the open minded doctor or scientist to help us. And don't give more credit than is due. The AMA and FDA are not going to do anything to help us, either! That's all I can ask. Be well, Mike D. [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [mdev...@mail.id.net ] [Speaking only for myself... ] -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
DOCTOR BASHING
"BRAVO " Mike seeing as I was one of the crew that started the DB threads which I have had personal experience of ... I must also say I have known some EXTREMELY good GPs that I would trust with my life and they are very knowledgeable . and a large number of them are turning or using alternatives .. -- Peace and Health to you and may the White Light protect you Barbara and Brian in OZ VK5KBW http://www.senet.com.au/~brains/intro.htm -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing summary...
Your summary omitted one item How many thumbs up and how many thumbs down? Dan -Original Message- From: M. G. Devour To: silver-list@eskimo.com Date: Friday, July 10, 1998 11:20 AM Subject: Doctor bashing summary... On 7 Jul 98 at 17:37, bjs wrote: > ... this is not a FDA or AMA oriented newsgroup. Quite the > opposite. Most people are here for a variety of reasons, but one > common denominator for most being here is a general disenchantment > with the mainstream medical monopoly to begin with. In other words, > mainstream medical worship and the urge to forgive them for their > faults is not deeply entrenched here. First of all, I'd like to compliment everyone who's taken part in this discussion of doctors and doctor bashing. There's been some heat but no nastiness to speak of. I started the thread by responding to Dameon's remarks, but only because it's an issue that's going to keep coming up. I wanted some air and light on the subject. Thank you all. We can't defend the medical monopoly, government policies, and mainstream arrogance that marks conventional health care (or disease management) today. I'm probably ready to go farther than *any* of you to change the system and let doctors and patients earn back their freedom. The fact that some alternative treatments have high success rates and continue to be "alternative" is damning. The horrendous abuse of power by some bureaucratic agencies and their insistance on trying to run our lives in every possible way are symptoms of far broader and deeper problems than just those affecting medical care. Understanding that, we all know what it's like to talk to people who have never considered alternatives. Everything we know and do is strange, suspect, and frightening for them. All their familiar ideas come from sound bites on the news, articles in the Reader's Digest, and those little pamphlets in the Doctor's waiting room. We've all gone off the deep end, already. They're just sticking a toe in the shallows! Given the dual mission of this list, to help people get started and to further study CS, we're going to always have an audience of people who are not yet convinced that this stuff is real. If we build a good reputation, we'll eventually be one of the first stops people make in exploring "this new thing they heard about." So, what about doctor bashing? How do we handle this without hobbling ourselves? I strongly suggest that each of you consider your role that of educator. You may safely recount your experiences and how they made you feel, and let the *facts* speak for themselves. But do *not* generalize to include others in your condemnation, especially someone else on the list. Anyone hearing such things for the first time has enough to overcome without adding personal affront to their shock and denial. > Speaking of that, mainstream medicence sure ain't got nothing kind > to say about alternative methods. So I don't know how lovey dovey > this can all be. We may *never* attract another medical professional or scientist to our group. If so, there'll be no more problem! But the door needs to be open, if for no other reason than their participation can speed things along for us. I don't propose to protect these people from the harsh truth, but I ask the highest level of restraint and understanding from you all. Let's help these people to face the reality of what they're involved in, hoping that at least some will be enlightened enough to stay. > > And as to arrogance, arrogance is playing at scientist in your kitchen > > lab in your spare time for six months then proposing to tell men and > > women who've dedicated their lives to the field that they don't have a > > clue what they're talking about. > > I would like to remind you that this one covers more than me > here. Both of you are correct, here. Much of modern science and medicine has arisen from just such "cranks" as you and me. People whose ideas were new at one time or another. Some folks have devoted years to study of alternative treatments and logged dozens or hundreds of successful interventions. To tell them what they're doing doesn't work is quite the act of arrogance. But the bulk of medical and scientific knowledge is valid, period. Anyone who has mastered a significan portion of it *is* to be respected for that, at least. Where we are stuggling is at the vast boundaries with the unknown. It is in how they approach new and different ideas and question established thought that we will be able to measure their character. There is much of politics and personalities and power in the practice of science and medicine today. Access to information, the media, and funding are controlled to the point that those on the outside
Re: Doctor bashing summary...
Hi Joyce! I just checked the list-ower account on eskimo and I can see the problem right away. The message is over 50 kilobytes. The limit on message size is about 40k. To send something that big it would have to be broken into at least two parts. Even still, some folks get irked when they have to download *really* big messages they are not interested in, so brevity is a virtue. (So says the one who can't even say "hello" briefly! ) The better alternative would be to list the web link, just as you did here. A good idea would be to include just enough of the article in your message to get people started on it! Thanks, Joyce. I'll take the time to read it. Be well, Mike D. On 10 Jul 98 at 9:17, Joyce wrote: > RE: Control of Internet -- I sent "One Answer to Cancer" about 4 > times, but it never got through (at least back to my inbox). Go to: > > http://hills.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jinouy01 > > Then go to the topic FREEDOM and click on "BOOK 2" after "Forbidden > Books" -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing summary...
RE: Control of Internet -- I sent "One Answer to Cancer" about 4 times, but it never got through (at least back to my inbox). Go to: http://hills.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jinouy01 Then go to the topic FREEDOM and click on "BOOK 2" after "Forbidden Books" On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, M. G. Devour wrote: > On 7 Jul 98 at 17:37, bjs wrote: (snip) > There is much of politics and personalities and power in the practice > of science and medicine today. Access to information, the media, and > funding are controlled to the point that those on the outside are at > a perpetual disadvantage. To overcome that we must make what friends > we can, and use all the advantages we posess to influence as many > people as possible. > > This internet technology is a forceful weapon, one over which the > powerful have yet to gain control. It is here that many people on > the "inside" are going to come face to face with "outsiders" for the > first time. Let's help make their experience a fruitful one. > > Be well, my friends. > > Mike Devour > list-owner > -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Doctor bashing summary...
On 7 Jul 98 at 17:37, bjs wrote: > ... this is not a FDA or AMA oriented newsgroup. Quite the > opposite. Most people are here for a variety of reasons, but one > common denominator for most being here is a general disenchantment > with the mainstream medical monopoly to begin with. In other words, > mainstream medical worship and the urge to forgive them for their > faults is not deeply entrenched here. First of all, I'd like to compliment everyone who's taken part in this discussion of doctors and doctor bashing. There's been some heat but no nastiness to speak of. I started the thread by responding to Dameon's remarks, but only because it's an issue that's going to keep coming up. I wanted some air and light on the subject. Thank you all. We can't defend the medical monopoly, government policies, and mainstream arrogance that marks conventional health care (or disease management) today. I'm probably ready to go farther than *any* of you to change the system and let doctors and patients earn back their freedom. The fact that some alternative treatments have high success rates and continue to be "alternative" is damning. The horrendous abuse of power by some bureaucratic agencies and their insistance on trying to run our lives in every possible way are symptoms of far broader and deeper problems than just those affecting medical care. Understanding that, we all know what it's like to talk to people who have never considered alternatives. Everything we know and do is strange, suspect, and frightening for them. All their familiar ideas come from sound bites on the news, articles in the Reader's Digest, and those little pamphlets in the Doctor's waiting room. We've all gone off the deep end, already. They're just sticking a toe in the shallows! Given the dual mission of this list, to help people get started and to further study CS, we're going to always have an audience of people who are not yet convinced that this stuff is real. If we build a good reputation, we'll eventually be one of the first stops people make in exploring "this new thing they heard about." So, what about doctor bashing? How do we handle this without hobbling ourselves? I strongly suggest that each of you consider your role that of educator. You may safely recount your experiences and how they made you feel, and let the *facts* speak for themselves. But do *not* generalize to include others in your condemnation, especially someone else on the list. Anyone hearing such things for the first time has enough to overcome without adding personal affront to their shock and denial. > Speaking of that, mainstream medicence sure ain't got nothing kind > to say about alternative methods. So I don't know how lovey dovey > this can all be. We may *never* attract another medical professional or scientist to our group. If so, there'll be no more problem! But the door needs to be open, if for no other reason than their participation can speed things along for us. I don't propose to protect these people from the harsh truth, but I ask the highest level of restraint and understanding from you all. Let's help these people to face the reality of what they're involved in, hoping that at least some will be enlightened enough to stay. > > And as to arrogance, arrogance is playing at scientist in your kitchen > > lab in your spare time for six months then proposing to tell men and > > women who've dedicated their lives to the field that they don't have a > > clue what they're talking about. > > I would like to remind you that this one covers more than me > here. Both of you are correct, here. Much of modern science and medicine has arisen from just such "cranks" as you and me. People whose ideas were new at one time or another. Some folks have devoted years to study of alternative treatments and logged dozens or hundreds of successful interventions. To tell them what they're doing doesn't work is quite the act of arrogance. But the bulk of medical and scientific knowledge is valid, period. Anyone who has mastered a significan portion of it *is* to be respected for that, at least. Where we are stuggling is at the vast boundaries with the unknown. It is in how they approach new and different ideas and question established thought that we will be able to measure their character. There is much of politics and personalities and power in the practice of science and medicine today. Access to information, the media, and funding are controlled to the point that those on the outside are at a perpetual disadvantage. To overcome that we must make what friends we can, and use all the advantages we posess to influence as many people as possible. This internet technology is a forceful weapon, one over which the powerful h
Re: Doctor bashing
Tom Young wrote: > > Nancy, > Your point is well taken. I think my strong reaction reflects what I > and many others feel about the general state of the Health Care System > (which I would rename the Disease Management System). Disease Management Growth Fund System** ** Substantial penalty on any withdrawal Here is ONE of my favorites. It is a true story. A doctor here diagnosed a man and determined he had cancer. The doc put him on a bunch of chemo drugs. The man got sicker and sicker and decided to go out of town for an another opinion. He was told he did not have cancer and they removed him from the drugs. Surprised to hear this, the man came home and told the doc; I didn't have cancer doc. The doc replied; That's good, we got it in time! bjs -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing
"Dark Gods" just about says it all. I have experienced the good,bad and the ugly with the medical establishment. My attitude towards doctors now is to view them as hired guns Same with lawyers who actually serve me better, and whom I trust more in the real world. Do not become too attached to Docs or trust them too much...you will be disappointed for many reasons, including that they are just too damn' busy to give each "petitioner" proper attention. So stop being a petitioner to the medical priesthood. It has been said many times but one must take responsibility for one's health nowadays and not trustingly,like a child,put yourself in the hands of the irresponsible and untouchable.We live in perilous times[don't we always??] when we have to look for the real healing methods out there and not be sucked in by dumb or money hungry medicos. What do you call the fellow who graduated at the bottom of his medical school class??? DOCTOR Dan -Original Message- From: likow...@earthlink.net To: silver-list@eskimo.com Date: Sunday, July 05, 1998 8:14 PM Subject: Re: Doctor bashing >getting paid well for it. If *YOU* had invested in a long/expensive >medical education and someone proved that half [or more] of the drugs >you were prescribing and treatments you were getting paid for doing >could cease because of a substance that can be made in someone's >kitchen, would you cross that line? Move to Mexico? End up like Wilhelm >Reich or Ruth Drown [and they weren't even "doctors"]? Most AMA >"doctors" remind me of that scene from the film COOL HAND LUKE where >Paul Newman is being put in "the box" for solitary confinement and the >jailer apologizes because he's "just doing his job"; Luke says to him, >"Callin' it a job don't make it right". I salute any doctor couragious >enough to rebel against the mighty force of The Dark Gods, but the sad >truth is that 98% of them simply won't. > >Dameon > > >-- >The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. > >To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: >silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com >with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. > >To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com > >List maintainer: Mike Devour > -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing
-Original Message- From: Susan M. Yensen To: silver-list@eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 6:23 AM Subject: Re: Doctor bashing >Hi, >No one needs my 2 cents worth but here it is. I too have experienced some >horrendous and even criminal actions on the part of MD's. I know this is >not all of them and that some are REALLY trapped by their profession. >Some have actually left and retrained in disgust. But when it comes to the >pocket book, I suppose we are all capable of the best and the worst in >each. Money truly is the root of a lot if not all evil. I appreciate the points you make in your post. I think it's good that many of us are getting our thoughts off our chests regarding doctors. One minor correction: the Bible verse you refer to is commonly misquoted. It actually is "Love of money is the root of all kinds of evil." No doubt love of money has caused a majority of problems in our society, our nation & our world. (If it were money itself that were evil, I'd burn all mine. But it would be awfully hard to survive in this kind of society.) I'm glad making & using colloidal silver doesn't require much investment, should our financial system collapse! Sincerely, Nancy -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing
Nancy, Your point is well taken. I think my strong reaction reflects what I and many others feel about the general state of the Health Care System (which I would rename the Disease Management System). I, like so many others, have seen many friends and relatives die of diseases over the years and the medical industry keeps touting their "war on cancer" and their "promising new drug". I'm absolutely convinced that no one but the patient is truly interested in curing disease. After all, to find a cure for anything could have a devastating affect on the pharmaceutical industry and many other "health care" businesses. My angle is just that any doctor who truly cares to do his/her own independent research aside from the orthodox journals will begin to find as most of us have, that there can be REAL SOLUTIONS to disease besides cut, poison and burn therapies. Unfortunately, at this point in time, not enough of them are caring and bold enough to mount an opposition against our corrupt medical system, and this angers and frustrates many of us who have lost loved ones. Most MDs are just "part of the system". Just my 2 cents. ...Tom Nancy B. wrote: > I'm not trying to be rude here, but are you aware that > there's also a room call the "medical library" in most if > not all hospitals, filled with current and old journals... -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing
Hello Nancy - I found your comments regarding this whole issue to be amongst the most balanced of any posted. Funny how one little response to a seemingly insignificant post set off such a fire. When I responded to whomever made the anti-doctors statement way back when, I never expected to start so many fireworks over whether doctors are worthy of their pay or status in society (not to mention their lives, considering the attitudes of some!)... but then, it *is* the 4th of July. In fact, it was mostly sarcasm in that I used the amount of 98% and the term "scum"; *obviously* more than 2% are "good" people, it's just that it's impossible to *really* know how many are not! When I made my other post stating that I felt 50-75% were corrupt (at least in part) I *do* think that's much more accurate and fits in overall with other aspects of human nature and other humans in their professions. In general, it seems to be "the nature of the beast" for a small quantity of *quality* humans to exist in ANY field of human activity, but it becomes more amplified in the medical profession because the mistakes are so glaring compared to (as you say) car repair or a head of hair. If someone screws up your car, it ain't headline news; when the wrong leg gets amputated, it ceratinly is -- and *must* be! And as you accurately point out "...the sicker one is, the more aware that person becomes of how little our doctors do know about health and illness...". This is very true. Necessity ALWAYS dictates in Life. If you're not that sick, or never had a child that sick, doctors aren't "bad" guys (or girls); but if you see your child repeatedly sick for years and it's breaking your heart and then you discover Colloidal Silver and it's miraculous implications (or ANY of the "alternatives" available that are being used with great success in other places), it tends to make you suspicious of ALL medicos. Any system inherently has a point of no return; with a fatal illness you play "Beat The Clock" everyday. Every minute seems cramped and uncomfortable while waiting for "the cure" to come along, but we are suspicious of a system that ignores obvious other, *better*, remedies so how can we have faith that "the cure" will come in time? So things get even more cramped and uncomfortable. And this is pretty much the basic "wounded animal" psychology; one thing compounds another and all the time that big old clock in the sky is ticking ever louder. It makes those playing games with your life appear extremely evil, and I mean that in the "ignorant" sense to a great degree. There is *honest* ignorance ([-]evil) -- where someone just didn't know there was a better way, and there is *arrogant* ignorance ([+]evil) -- where they may have sensed Truth and a better way, but chose to ignore it because of ego or job security or whatever. But then, this is where The Truth issue itself can become very abstract: If a doctor raising a family with kids in college or perhaps even a chronically sick child of their own has built a good way of life being the "conventional" kind of doctor, and then discovers something like CS and it's wonderful implications and sincerely wants to start "prescribing" it to their patients -- perhaps even conducting "scientific experiments" to prove it's worth to the world -- but knows what they're up against, is it the "truthful", "better" way to jeopardize their entire family's lives over this? If there's the slightest chance that they could lose everything by employing the use of CS on a regular basis, is it worth it? This is where we all have to look in the mirror... where the *real* MANimal aspects of our limited nature comes into play. I can stand alone; I have no offspring to care for -- not even a wife or girlfriend. Like the film BRAVE HEART, I can afford to fight the great war with nothing to jeopardize but *my own* life -- which we all lose in the end anyway. And my attack is mostly against single doctors I've known (or with the establishment itself) who *could* make some changes if they wanted to. But I honestly admit that IF there were others I had to provide for I may not be quite the warrior, for the love that bonds also weakens. We are faced with compromises every step of the way. Much of where we end up in Life is a "Destiny" thing, over which we have little control. But turning points are the key; you have to dig deep to discover the correct battle to fight. An ancient philosopher once wrote "All things are born of war". I'm still waiting for Nature to prove that statement false. Time and unforeseen occurrence befall all men (and women) and since we're going to die in the end, choosing the right battle seems all important. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem... it's just a question of *how much* of a part. Dameon Tue/3:05PM/7/7/98 _ Sorry, Dameon, that was intended to go to the list, not you & Tom Young individually. As I posted in an earlier email this
Re: Doctor bashing
>Hi, >No one needs my 2 cents worth but here it is. I too have experienced some >horrendous and even criminal actions on the part of MD's. I know this is >not all of them and that some are REALLY trapped by their profession. >Some have actually left and retrained in disgust. But when it comes to the >pocket book, I suppose we are all capable of the best and the worst in >each. Money truly is the root of a lot if not all evil. >I have spent untold hours of my previous life being an activist in the area >of what is right in this field. Now I take the tack that I will educate >them--ONE AT A TIME. I have learned even to be manipulative, choosing the >best time, considering fragile egos, proper wording and so forth. At least >I go in there with a pretty researched case . This should not be necessary >and that is maddening, but but my back is only up against the wall if I >back into it so I really work on al;l the angles stuff. Well this keeps me >from being a victim of them and not being a victim, I am empowered to >perform better through prayer--Yikes I said it, but this is what works for >me. I know what you mean Susan. Then there's that hard headed so and so that just makes a person want to scream. You lay the facts out under their nose and even then they won't read them. The one that really gets me is when they say Lyme can be cured with 2 weeks of antibotics. Take Care Reid -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing
I'm not trying to be rude here, but are you aware that there's also a room call the "medical library" in most if not all hospitals, filled with current and old journals. These libraries are staffed by librarians who make reprints for doctors all the time of various subjects they want to know more about. I imagine the computer gets used by many doctors to access a lot of medical libraries too, today. (The AMA also provides reprints for anyone, not just doctors.) When you are on break at work, do you like to study your profession? I'm glad to see that doctors aren't so ingrown that all they can read about is medicine & surgery. And it doesn't trouble me to know that they are reading up on finance either. They have families to take care of like we do. Many a doctor is in heavy debt due to college and medical school loans for years after graduating and starting their practices. They earn their money. They pay taxes too! Just like everybody else. Why is this such an issue here? Sincerely, Nancy -Original Message- From: Tom Young To: likow...@earthlink.net Cc: silver-list@eskimo.com Date: Monday, July 06, 1998 6:58 PM Subject: Re: Doctor bashing >Dameon and listso true, so true! I worked in a hospital for over a >year and had many occasions to enter the Doctors' lounges to service >internet computers. I noticed that the bookshelves had more magazines about >money management and investing than on medical science... certainly tells >us what THEIR priorities are > >...Tom > >likow...@earthlink.net wrote: > >> I can assure you that the thought of "helping" people comes *AFTER* >> thoughts of money and what they'll be buying and where they'll be going >> in the future. > > > > >-- >The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. > >To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: >silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com >with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. > >To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com > >List maintainer: Mike Devour > -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing
Hi, No one needs my 2 cents worth but here it is. I too have experienced some horrendous and even criminal actions on the part of MD's. I know this is not all of them and that some are REALLY trapped by their profession. Some have actually left and retrained in disgust. But when it comes to the pocket book, I suppose we are all capable of the best and the worst in each. Money truly is the root of a lot if not all evil. I have spent untold hours of my previous life being an activist in the area of what is right in this field. Now I take the tack that I will educate them--ONE AT A TIME. I have learned even to be manipulative, choosing the best time, considering fragile egos, proper wording and so forth. At least I go in there with a pretty researched case . This should not be necessary and that is maddening, but but my back is only up against the wall if I back into it so I really work on al;l the angles stuff. Well this keeps me from being a victim of them and not being a victim, I am empowered to perform better through prayer--Yikes I said it, but this is what works for me. I won't say "try it you'll like it", but perhaps conquering my own wrathful passions in this area alone has set my poor aching feet to a higher objective and I can live peacefully within even knowing the abuses and excesses. Life is Fragile. Handle with Prayer Susan -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing (fwd)
D.K. I'm forwarding this to the list. Somehow, probably because
silver-list was only cc'd, it didn't go out and bounced to my
list-owner account. You deserve to be heard.
Mike D.
-- Forwarded message --
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 23:00:33 -0700
From: "D.K. Mason"
To: likow...@earthlink.net
Cc: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Doctor bashing
In late April, 1998 some local "Dr.'s" reported my family to the
Child Protection Services ("C.P.S.") because I refused to allow
surgery for a lump on a throat. After a couple of weeks of almost
daily threats, job site visits, classroom visits, etc, 3 of my kids
were kidnapped by the C.P.S. agents. We were accused of "...medical
neglect" None of these actions were done after notice and
hearings, which are required by state law. Even though I was
accused of many evils for not allowing exploratory surgery, C.P.S.
saw fit to return 2 of the 3 kids two weeks later.
The "Dr.s" all agreed with the lead doc stating that if the child
had thyroid cancer and if it spread, without treatment she would die.
I obtained videos from Dr. Lorraine Day (http://www.drday.com) and
Dr. Hulda Clark to contest these Dr's. The children's attorney would
not present it to the Court, and instead said the 3 videotapes had
fallen out of his vehicle onto the freeway and had been run over by a
truck. I was given a restraining order by the Family Court not to
speak to or otherwise interfere with any of the personnel treating my
daughter. In fact, they hired special guards which were posted
outside the room of my daughter, who were expecting me to show up.
They were all hoping I'd make an appearance and I'd surely be
arrested.
My daughter hasn't been returned to the home yet, as they now accuse
me of not wanting provide any required medications. They tell my
spouse that they will keep the child unless I am removed from the
home, or later this month when we return to court for a possible
trial contesting their jurisdiction.
Got a 5 minute home video testimonial about "alternative" medicines
you've successfully used? Mail all videos to me at: Box 3894
Honolulu, HI 96812. If selected, yours may be broadcast here next
month.
--
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Re: Doctor bashing
[Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [Speaking only for myself... ] You have no idea how much I love the way you end each missive, Mike. Wil C. -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing
On 6 Jul 98 at 14:34, Dameon wrote: > They are, for the most part, untouchable -- and they know it. And > *this* is where any "evil" inherent in the situation ferments (in > my opinion). Even *if* they *do* get prosecuted for some mishap, > they just pack up and move to another state and start a practice > there! Amazingly, *VERY* few ever actually lose their license! By > the way: My cousin is sick of it all and is planning on leaving the > medical field; he's currently writing a book on The Bible. In my opinion, and this is as close to discussing politics as I'm willing to go here, their "untouchable" status is probably the best measure of the degree to which the market for medical care has been corrupted. At least in the US, the government pays for something like 40% of all medical spending through medicare/medicaid. By this influence, along with the longstanding convention of medical insurance as a *job benefit*, *very few* Americans have any direct control over the quality of health care delivered for all the billions in spending. And as each year passes more laws and regulations encroach further on any vestige of freedom in medicine. In the not so distant future it may become totally illegal to pay for medical care directly! Against this sort of background, I can believe that cynicism and callousness can infect even good men and women, just as even the *worst* of scoundrels are protected and nurtured within the system. I don't doubt your cousin sees his career choice as a mistake. It is not the practice of medicine but the *business* of medicine that dominates that marketplace today. I hear of many in the profession advising their sons and daughters to *not* become doctors. I have thus far been spared the worst horrors of the system's failures. I am acutely aware of, though I can scarcely begin to comprehend, the suffering and ill-treatment that some of our members have experienced at their hands. I'm not about censoring or censure of anyone for expressing their feelings or telling their story. I do want us to find a way that is *respectful* of their feelings, yet does not drive away others who may be willing, and above all capable, of being of help to us. Be well, Mike D. [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [mdev...@mail.id.net ] [Speaking only for myself... ] -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing
Dameon and listso true, so true! I worked in a hospital for over a year and had many occasions to enter the Doctors' lounges to service internet computers. I noticed that the bookshelves had more magazines about money management and investing than on medical science... certainly tells us what THEIR priorities are ...Tom likow...@earthlink.net wrote: > I can assure you that the thought of "helping" people comes *AFTER* > thoughts of money and what they'll be buying and where they'll be going > in the future. -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing
In my very first response to this subject I used the term "scum", including *most* doctors into that catagory. That was wrong. Douglas McMurtrie, Mike D and others have made good points to the contrary in their defense. 98% of all doctors are not "scum", but I think the percentage of those in the medical field that are driven by ego and selfish interests (monetary) are fair higher than just a few: Probably more in the 50-75% range. If that weren't so, you'd be seeing a lot more of them working for a lot less money and/or even going on "missions" to other countries to work with devastated people who have literally nothing. But instead you see them charging $100 (or more) for a 15-minute office visit and driving very nice cars and living in very nice homes and taking very nice vacations (and many only "work" 4 or 5 hours a day, too); hardly suffering for their "cause" to "help" humanity, in my opinion. Not to drag this thing out any longer because it's getting really boring, but having been in the hospital more times than I care to remember since the age of 4, and being up at all hours while there, and getting to know MANY doctors and interns alike, and listening to their conversations (sometimes without them realizing it), I can assure you that the thought of "helping" people comes *AFTER* thoughts of money and what they'll be buying and where they'll be going in the future. Sorry to step on any toes here, but this is pure and honest observation; I have *nothing* to gain by making such statements. In fact, in a sense, I'm "biting the hand that feeds me" because I could have another lung collapse and be under their complete control tomorrow! But the truth is the truth. My own cousin is a surgeon who's been "varifying" this truth for the past 10 years to me with *many* stories of operations that don't need to be done and wrong drugs that are routinely given and other negligences that are swept under the rug continually. I personally TWICE IN THE PAST YEAR have had to prove to/remind my doctor of the drug mistakes he was making with me(!), but he wasn't paid any less for doing a bad job! They are, for the most part, untouchable -- and they know it. And *this* is where any "evil" inherent in the situation ferments (in my opinion). Even *if* they *do* get prosecuted for some mishap, they just pack up and move to another state and start a practice there! Amazingly, *VERY* few ever actually lose their license! By the way: My cousin is sick of it all and is planning on leaving the medical field; he's currently writing a book on The Bible. See ya! Dameon -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Re: Doctor bashing
Hi all. I agree with Mike D, W. D. Cavanaugh and all the rest who rallied in defense of those in the medical establishment who are possibly willing to cross the line into this/our dimension. My perspective/attitude on doctors in general is quite tainted because of having had to deal with them on a continual basis since I was 4 years old. I doubt that there are many on the list that can claim the same amount of experience. This does not make me an "expert" on ALL of them, but I can surely attest with great accuarcy to the high degree of hypocracy and lack of *real* concern for The Truth, whatever that may be -- at least in the field of Cystic Fibrosis research. It's like that old joke: A scientist puts a frog on a table and takes note of how far the frog jumped with all 4 legs -- after alarming it with a sound -- writing, "Frog jumped 3 feet with 4 legs". Then he removes 1 leg and presses the alarm again observing, "Frog jumped 2 feet with 2 legs". Then he removes another leg, presses the alarm and observes, "Frog jumped 6 inches with 1 leg". Finally, removing the 4th leg and pressing the alarm he writes, "Frog goes deaf". If the "doctors" are committed to *really* healing the sick, why are they barking up so many wrong trees to begin with? A perfect example of what I'm talking about is the fact that Joyce Inouye has posted on her site PROOF that Colloidal Silver KILLS THE VERY BACTERIA THAT KILL MOST OF CYSTIC FIBROSIS VICTIMS!! Studies done by an actual lab and even earlier reports from DECADES ago have confirmed it for all the doubters, not to mention my own experience! So why are these "healers" and supposedly truthful "doctors" with a mission to help humanity ignoring this information? Why is a friend of mine with the same disease not expected to live past the next week because all the drugs they've been giving him FOR THIS VERY SAME BACTERIA have ruined his kidneys and liver and other systems are now shutting down? That's where my attitude stems from. I *used* to blindly trust them [like most people] and now I'm paying for it. Most people with marginal "doctor" experience may not feel the same way, and -- as I said in my first "doctor-bashing" agreement -- there *are* some good ones out there who *are* just plain ignorant of these options [like CS] and *may* be willing to learn and *maybe* even risk their career JUST to help people, but they're so few and far between that I wouldn't hold my breath. Most wouldn't risk their entire schooling and high-paying career to start replacing their drugs with Colloidal Silver. They may *want* to or feel a sincere desire to do so, but sayin' ain't doin'. So they stay close to the security of their AMA masters while continuing to use many of the poisons they really don't need to and getting paid well for it. If *YOU* had invested in a long/expensive medical education and someone proved that half [or more] of the drugs you were prescribing and treatments you were getting paid for doing could cease because of a substance that can be made in someone's kitchen, would you cross that line? Move to Mexico? End up like Wilhelm Reich or Ruth Drown [and they weren't even "doctors"]? Most AMA "doctors" remind me of that scene from the film COOL HAND LUKE where Paul Newman is being put in "the box" for solitary confinement and the jailer apologizes because he's "just doing his job"; Luke says to him, "Callin' it a job don't make it right". I salute any doctor couragious enough to rebel against the mighty force of The Dark Gods, but the sad truth is that 98% of them simply won't. Dameon -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
Doctor bashing
A number of derogatory statements have been made about physicians and their power trips/moneygrubbing. Let's try to keep some perspective on this. There are a lot of docs out there who aren't bad guys, and they're fighting constantly to get alternate therapies available. I'm thinking in particular of Drs. William C. Douglass II and III, and the many other physicians of the IBOM and the ACAM. By the way, in speaking up for alternate medicine practicioners, I need to emphasize that I may be a Surgeon, but am not licensed to practice medicine. I do consider myself to be pretty sharp-get the point? I've been known to cut to the heart of the matter, and make some incisive remarks. My slice is pretty bad, too, so I keep off the links. You're probably tired of all this cutting up, so suture self. -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the subject: line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour
