Re: [Simh] Zork for ITS [was: Klh10 vs Simh]

[lists]

On Mon, 29 Feb 2016 20:29:47 -0500
Clem Cole  wrote:

> I am under the impression that both Dungeon and Adventure are part of the
> Intel compiler test suite (as they were for the DEC compilers), so I
> suspect they will even run on on modern Mac's, Linux and Window's boxes if
> you set the FTN value in the makefile to point to fort (which you can get
> a free noncommercial license for if you poke around the Intel websites).

Did you mean ifort? The non-commercial license program was cancelled within
the last 12 months unfortunately. Because of abuse in the academic sector!

Now the academics can get free copies but not non-commercial users...
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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Larry Stewart]

As Clem notes, the 1822 report defines three types of Host to IMP interfaces, 
Local Host, Distant Host, and Very Distant Host.

The Local host uses TTL levels to signal, with per-bit handshaking.  The 
Distant Host
uses, IIRC, differential signalling aomewhat like RS422 electrically, but uses 
the per-bit handshaking.
The VDH, on the other hand, is more like the IMP to IMP protocol which is 
actually BISYNC at the wire level.
This can be done with any synchronous serial line adapter on the host (no start 
and stop bits!). So if there are any SIMH synchronous serial controllers, they 
would work for VDH.  The DU-11 maybe ?

At SU-ISL we ran VDH from an 11 to the IMP at the Stanford Medical School 
(SUMEX-AIM).

The software for VDH is messier than for LH or DH though, because there is a 
BISYNC layer for framing and a link ARQ scheme for error detection and 
retransmission of packet fragments across the (not assumed error free) VDH link.

So there were 11’s with VDH.  I don’t know if any 10’s used them, so that the 
VDH software would exist.

-Larry

> On 2016, Feb 29, at 3:48 PM, Clem Cole > 
> wrote:
> 
> Tim I'm going to guess that the AN22 implements the PDP-10 side of the BBN 
> 1822 IMP interface. Is that a correct belief?
> 
> Bit Savers has the BBN 1822 document from 1976 (the original I think was '72 
> - I had a xerox of that one).  I think I saw it about a week ago at home, so 
> I'm nearly 100% sure I have very clean copy of the actual published in it's 
> Yellow Cover from BBN, the later edition - which would have been the one when 
> the IP transition was taking place or at least planned (i.e. post Arpanet - 
> when IP was being created).  If so, I'll look into getting it scanned and 
> send an update to Al.   I'm pretty sure there was changes when BBN 
> implemented their own mini for the IMP (the C30 - which later got 
> re-microcoded to be  general purpose computer - the C70 "C Machine").
> 
>  
> 
> I do not remember how CMU interfaced the 10's and C.mmp to their (Honeywell) 
> IMP.  I suspect it was either something like the AN22 or be a Jim "Tetter 
> Toy" that he cooked up (I never knew).   However, IIRC @ UCB Ingres 11/70s a 
> DR-11B with a little logic  (??Bob Kriddle hack maybe?? - at one time I had 
> my hand in it).  That was the UCB Arpanet interface for many, many years --- 
> until CSRG finally got a C30 IMP in Evans in the early 1980s.   Ing70 had a 
> "very long host" interface from a Honeywell IMP that was "up the hill" at 
> LBL.Again, IIRC the C30 could do Ethernet to the Vaxen.   Or maybe it was 
> connected to the Ethernet via a C70 which was connected the C30 (I've 
> forgotten). But until the C30 showed up, the UCB Arpanet/Internet connection 
> was fairly shallow; unlike CMU, MIT or Stanford.
> 
> Clem
> 
> On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Timothe Litt  > wrote:
> On 29-Feb-16 12:34, b...@gewt.net  wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Can anyone point me at IMP documentation for the KS10? I'm only seeing AN10 
>> maintenance printsets up on Bitsavers...I'd love documentation that isn't 
>> KLH10's KS10-ITS implementation!
>> 
>> Alternatively, were any of the experimental Ethernet interfaces ever 
>> supported in TOPS-10/20 on the KS10? (I don't have access to my SRI-NIC 
>> packs due to the VM being down at present)
>> 
>> Alternatively too...the userland ANF-10 bridge could prove useful for this...
>> 
> Not clear what you want to do.
> 
> The KS does have an ARPA interface, the AN22.  I have not tracked down a spec 
> for it.  It is KMC-11 based, not simulated by SimH at present.  The TOPS-20 
> monitor sources for 4.1 are a resource.  One day I'll get access to my stuff 
> at CHM and will look for a spec.  It's on my list to see if it's worth 
> emulating.
> 
> The DEUNA is simulated in SimH.  Neither the released TOPS-10 nor TOPS-20 
> support it.  There is some TCP code floating around that does.
> 
> If you're trying to move files in and out:
>   DECnet does work (phase II on TOPS-20, Phase III or IV on TOPS-20), and 
> will talk to VAX/RSX.  You can move files by stopping on or PMR thru) one of 
> them.
> 
>   ANF-10 on the KS does work, KS-KS.  It should be possible to build the -11 
> nodes on the KS & boot them on a SimH -11.  I've been meaning to get around 
> to that, but haven't.  With ANF, besides the peripherals and terminals, you 
> get DCP.
> 
>Networking on the KS is supported on both OSs by the KDP emulator.  The 
> DMR should work, though I think there's a monitor bug in 7.04 where my 
> colleagues changed AC definitions and didn't update the DMR driver.  Also on 
> my list.
> 
> You can also move files in and out with Kermit (serial lines), cards, 
> magtape, printer.
> 
> I don't know what you mean by 'anf-10 userland bridge'.  Of course, FAL on 
> the -10 listens to both DECnet and ANF.
> 
> 
> ___
> 

Re: [Simh] Zork for ITS [was: Klh10 vs Simh]

[Clem Cole]

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 4:49 PM, Bob Supnik  wrote:

> MDL sources for Dungeon are online here:
> http://simh.trailing-edge.com/games/zork-mdl.zip
>
> /Bob
>

​Thanks Bob.  While its different then trying to get MDL run again, if you
want to be a retro gamer -  I believe the Fortran version of Zork (called
Dungeon), plus the the original Fortran Adventure sources are in the same
directory:  http://simh.trailing-edge.com/games/.   The Fortran versions
are known to compile and run with the current Intel compiler - which to
quote Rich Grove: "has a bunch of the DEC (Gem) compiler DNA ground up and
injected into it."

I am under the impression that both Dungeon and Adventure are part of the
Intel compiler test suite (as they were for the DEC compilers), so I
suspect they will even run on on modern Mac's, Linux and Window's boxes if
you set the FTN value in the makefile to point to fort (which you can get a
free noncommercial license for if you poke around the Intel websites).

FYI: gfortran ​might work but I can not claim to have tried it, while I
have personally run them both with ifort on my Mac to show my kids what
computer games once looked like (I'm not sure if they were disgusted or
amazed, but I did find when he was 16, my now 20 year, son playing
adventure - i.e. it did suck him in - even he had been part of the Wii,
Xbox and Nintendo generation.   I think he was more impressed that I still
had an adventure Map in a file cabinet that was created on computer printer
paper.   That said, I'm not sure my daughter (a CS professional these days)
was as entranced.

Clem
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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Robert Armstrong]

>Yes, it was him. See also simh/H316/h316_hi.c:

  Yep, as I mentioned Charles Anthony recently (well, last Christmas) 
implemented the host interface for the DPS8.  I'm not sure what changes he made 
to the h316_hi module or whether they've found their way back into the simh 
source tree, but at least now there is an existence proof.

Bob Armstrong

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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Jacob Goense]

On 2016-02-29 22:20, SPC wrote:

Hum... not sure about this, but someone talked here some years ago
about a modification of  the SIMH Honeywell simulator to convert it in
one IMP. I assume that he had some kind of BBN IMP code.

I'm not sure if this project would be limited to tray to simulate the
original ARPANET token ring limited to the IMPs or there was some
other goals to reach. An example: modify another simulator adding to
it a simulation of one device like this one (AN22) making it to talk
with the IMP.

As I said this was a post from years ago. Perhaps was Bob Armstrong
who talked about it but I'm not sure at all.


Yes, it was him. See also simh/H316/h316_hi.c:

   The host interface is one of the BBN engineered devices unique to the
   ARPAnet IMP.  This is the famous "1822" card which connected each IMP 
to a
   host computer - a DECSYSTEM-10, an SDS Sigma 7, an IBM 360/90, a 
CDC6600,

   or any one of many other ARPAnet hosts.  The idea is to simulate this
   interface by using a TCP/UDP connection to another simh instance 
emulating

   the host machine and running the ARPAnet host software.

   Presently the details of the host interface card are not well known, 
and
   this implementation is simply a place holder.  It's enough to allow 
the IMP
   software to run, but not actually to communicate with a host.  The 
IMP simply

   believes that all the attached hosts are down at the moment.
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Re: [Simh] IBM's decimal computers [was Re: pdp11 and unix]

[Ken Hall]

I worked on a pure decimal machine back in the 70's and 80's.  Everything was 
totally decimal, even the disks, 100,000 sectors of 100 bytes each.

It was made by Singer, and was used mainly as a point-of-sale collection system.



-Original Message-
From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson
Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 3:37 PM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: [Simh] IBM's decimal computers [was Re: pdp11 and unix]

> From: Paul Koning 
> Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 10:23:15 -0500

> I wasn't referring to packed decimal instructions for binary machines; 
> those stayed around for a long time.  Even VAX had them, at least 
> originally.  I was talking about decimal machines, with memories 
> organized in decimal digits.  The last computer I can think of that 
> fits that description is the IBM 1620, from the early 1960s.

The 1620 family were decimal, intended for scientific computing.  The original
1620 was introduced in 1959, the same year as the 1401.  The last member of the 
family was introduced in 1963.

The 1400 family were decimal, intended for business computing.  The 1401, from 
1959, was the first in the family.  The last member of the family, the 1450, 
intended explicitly for the banking industry, was introduced in 1968.

So decimal computers were longer lived than you thought.

Rich 
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Re: [Simh] Zork for ITS [was: Klh10 vs Simh]

[Bob Supnik]

MDL sources for Dungeon are online here: 
http://simh.trailing-edge.com/games/zork-mdl.zip


/Bob

On 2/29/2016 3:48 PM, simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com wrote:

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 14:48:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Rich Alderson
To:simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] Klh10 vs Simh
Message-ID:<20160229194847.904f224...@panix5.panix.com>


Intriguing idea. Hmm. Would that even work?
There are 2 issues.  First, we only have the MDL environment in its TOPS-20
form, so system calls would have to be recreated.  Then, the actual ZORK binary
is an MDL dump file, tied explicitly to the particular version of MDL (v104, as
it happens) from which it was generated.

Somewhere in my collection of stuff I probably still have a tape of the source
for MDL v105, and there are archives of the MDL sources for a later version of
ZORK than the well-known executable.

I'll probably have time to look into it after I retire--in 2021.  Before then
is questionable.

 Rich


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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Mark Pizzolato]

Bob Armstrong did the work and it was merged into the master branch in the 
https://github.com/simh/simh repo.

From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of SPC
Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 1:21 PM
To: Clem Cole 
Cc: SIMH 
Subject: Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

Hum... not sure about this, but someone talked here some years ago about a 
modification of  the SIMH Honeywell simulator to convert it in one IMP. I 
assume that he had some kind of BBN IMP code.

I'm not sure if this project would be limited to tray to simulate the original 
ARPANET token ring limited to the IMPs or there was some other goals to reach. 
An example: modify another simulator adding to it a simulation of one device 
like this one (AN22) making it to talk with the IMP.

As I said this was a post from years ago. Perhaps was Bob Armstrong who talked 
about it but I'm not sure at all.

Kind Regards.

Gracias | Regards - Saludos | Greetings | Freundliche Grüße | Salutations
​
--
Sergio Pedraja
--
twitter: @sergio_pedraja | skype: Sergio Pedraja
--
http://plus.google.com/u/0/101292256663392735405
http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja
-
No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que está viéndolo todo


2016-02-29 21:48 GMT+01:00 Clem Cole >:
Tim I'm going to guess that the AN22 implements the PDP-10 side of the BBN 1822 
IMP interface. Is that a correct belief?

Bit Savers has the BBN 1822 document from 1976 (the original I think was '72 - 
I had a xerox of that one).  I think I saw it about a week ago at home, so I'm 
nearly 100% sure I have very clean copy of the actual published in it's Yellow 
Cover from BBN, the later edition - which would have been the one when the IP 
transition was taking place or at least planned (i.e. post Arpanet - when IP 
was being created).  If so, I'll look into getting it scanned and send an 
update to Al.   I'm pretty sure there was changes when BBN implemented their 
own mini for the IMP (the C30 - which later got re-microcoded to be  general 
purpose computer - the C70 "C Machine").



I do not remember how CMU interfaced the 10's and C.mmp to their (Honeywell) 
IMP.  I suspect it was either something like the AN22 or be a Jim "Tetter Toy" 
that he cooked up (I never knew).   However, IIRC @ UCB Ingres 11/70s a DR-11B 
with a little logic  (??Bob Kriddle hack maybe?? - at one time I had my hand in 
it).  That was the UCB Arpanet interface for many, many years --- until CSRG 
finally got a C30 IMP in Evans in the early 1980s.   Ing70 had a "very long 
host" interface from a Honeywell IMP that was "up the hill" at LBL.Again, 
IIRC the C30 could do Ethernet to the Vaxen.   Or maybe it was connected to the 
Ethernet via a C70 which was connected the C30 (I've forgotten). But until the 
C30 showed up, the UCB Arpanet/Internet connection was fairly shallow; unlike 
CMU, MIT or Stanford.

Clem

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Timothe Litt 
> wrote:
On 29-Feb-16 12:34, b...@gewt.net wrote:

Hello,

Can anyone point me at IMP documentation for the KS10? I'm only seeing AN10 
maintenance printsets up on Bitsavers...I'd love documentation that isn't 
KLH10's KS10-ITS implementation!
Alternatively, were any of the experimental Ethernet interfaces ever supported 
in TOPS-10/20 on the KS10? (I don't have access to my SRI-NIC packs due to the 
VM being down at present)

Alternatively too...the userland ANF-10 bridge could prove useful for this...

Not clear what you want to do.

The KS does have an ARPA interface, the AN22.  I have not tracked down a spec 
for it.  It is KMC-11 based, not simulated by SimH at present.  The TOPS-20 
monitor sources for 4.1 are a resource.  One day I'll get access to my stuff at 
CHM and will look for a spec.  It's on my list to see if it's worth emulating.

The DEUNA is simulated in SimH.  Neither the released TOPS-10 nor TOPS-20 
support it.  There is some TCP code floating around that does.

If you're trying to move files in and out:
  DECnet does work (phase II on TOPS-20, Phase III or IV on TOPS-20), and will 
talk to VAX/RSX.  You can move files by stopping on or PMR thru) one of them.

  ANF-10 on the KS does work, KS-KS.  It should be possible to build the -11 
nodes on the KS & boot them on a SimH -11.  I've been meaning to get around to 
that, but haven't.  With ANF, besides the peripherals and terminals, you get 
DCP.

   Networking on the KS is supported on both OSs by the KDP emulator.  The DMR 
should work, though I think there's a monitor bug in 7.04 where my colleagues 
changed AC definitions and didn't update the DMR driver.  Also on my list.

You can also move files in and out with Kermit (serial lines), cards, 
magtape, printer.

I don't know what you mean by 'anf-10 userland bridge'.  Of course, FAL on the 
-10 listens to both DECnet and ANF.

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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[SPC]

Hum... not sure about this, but someone talked here some years ago about a
modification of  the SIMH Honeywell simulator to convert it in one IMP. I
assume that he had some kind of BBN IMP code.

I'm not sure if this project would be limited to tray to simulate the
original ARPANET token ring limited to the IMPs or there was some other
goals to reach. An example: modify another simulator adding to it a
simulation of one device like this one (AN22) making it to talk with the
IMP.

As I said this was a post from years ago. Perhaps was Bob Armstrong who
talked about it but I'm not sure at all.

Kind Regards.

Gracias | Regards - Saludos | Greetings | Freundliche Grüße | Salutations
​
-- 
*Sergio Pedraja*
-- 
twitter: @sergio_pedraja | skype: Sergio Pedraja
--
http://plus.google.com/u/0/101292256663392735405
http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja
-
No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que está viéndolo todo


2016-02-29 21:48 GMT+01:00 Clem Cole :

> Tim I'm going to guess that the AN22 implements the PDP-10 side of the BBN
> 1822 IMP interface. Is that a correct belief?
>
> Bit Savers has the BBN 1822 document from 1976 (the original I think was
> '72 - I had a xerox of that one).  I think I saw it about a week ago at
> home, so I'm nearly 100% sure I have very clean copy of the actual
> published in it's Yellow Cover from BBN, the later edition - which would
> have been the one when the IP transition was taking place or at least
> planned (i.e. post Arpanet - when IP was being created).  If so, I'll look
> into getting it scanned and send an update to Al.   I'm pretty sure there
> was changes when BBN implemented their own mini for the IMP (the C30 -
> which later got re-microcoded to be  general purpose computer - the C70 "C
> Machine").
>
>
>
> I do not remember how CMU interfaced the 10's and C.mmp to their
> (Honeywell) IMP.  I suspect it was either something like the AN22 or be a
> Jim "Tetter Toy" that he cooked up (I never knew).   However, IIRC @ UCB
> Ingres 11/70s a DR-11B with a little logic  (??Bob Kriddle hack maybe?? -
> at one time I had my hand in it).  That was the UCB Arpanet interface for
> many, many years --- until CSRG finally got a C30 IMP in Evans in the early
> 1980s.   Ing70 had a "very long host" interface from a Honeywell IMP that
> was "up the hill" at LBL.Again, IIRC the C30 could do Ethernet to the
> Vaxen.   Or maybe it was connected to the Ethernet via a C70 which was
> connected the C30 (I've forgotten). But until the C30 showed up, the UCB
> Arpanet/Internet connection was fairly shallow; unlike CMU, MIT or Stanford.
>
> Clem
>
> On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Timothe Litt  wrote:
>
>> On 29-Feb-16 12:34, b...@gewt.net wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Can anyone point me at IMP documentation for the KS10? I'm only seeing
>> AN10 maintenance printsets up on Bitsavers...I'd love documentation that
>> isn't KLH10's KS10-ITS implementation!
>>
>> Alternatively, were any of the experimental Ethernet interfaces ever
>> supported in TOPS-10/20 on the KS10? (I don't have access to my SRI-NIC
>> packs due to the VM being down at present)
>>
>> Alternatively too...the userland ANF-10 bridge could prove useful for
>> this...
>>
>> Not clear what you want to do.
>>
>> The KS does have an ARPA interface, the AN22.  I have not tracked down a
>> spec for it.  It is KMC-11 based, not simulated by SimH at present.  The
>> TOPS-20 monitor sources for 4.1 are a resource.  One day I'll get access to
>> my stuff at CHM and will look for a spec.  It's on my list to see if it's
>> worth emulating.
>>
>> The DEUNA is simulated in SimH.  Neither the released TOPS-10 nor TOPS-20
>> support it.  There is some TCP code floating around that does.
>>
>> If you're trying to move files in and out:
>>   DECnet does work (phase II on TOPS-20, Phase III or IV on TOPS-20), and
>> will talk to VAX/RSX.  You can move files by stopping on or PMR thru) one
>> of them.
>>
>>   ANF-10 on the KS does work, KS-KS.  It should be possible to build the
>> -11 nodes on the KS & boot them on a SimH -11.  I've been meaning to get
>> around to that, but haven't.  With ANF, besides the peripherals and
>> terminals, you get DCP.
>>
>>Networking on the KS is supported on both OSs by the KDP emulator.
>> The DMR should work, though I think there's a monitor bug in 7.04 where my
>> colleagues changed AC definitions and didn't update the DMR driver.  Also
>> on my list.
>>
>> You can also move files in and out with Kermit (serial lines), cards,
>> magtape, printer.
>>
>> I don't know what you mean by 'anf-10 userland bridge'.  Of course, FAL
>> on the -10 listens to both DECnet and ANF.
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
>
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Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 145, Issue 124

[Larry Baker]

The thing that makes PDF less attractive than plain Postscript is that it is a 
binary format.  PDF is "object" oriented; Postscript is "stream" oriented.  You 
have to construct a binary table-of-contents at the end of a PDF file with 
byte-offsets into the file referencing a tree of PDF objects.  And, it still 
has to be converted to Postscript to send to a printer.  Whereas, a Postscript 
file can simply be sent to a Postscript printer directly.  I know of no native 
PDF printers.  Postscript is a text file; you can edit it with a text editor 
and not mess it up.

On 29 Feb 2016, at 12:48 PM,  
 wrote:

> Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 14:04:09 -0500
> From: Timothe Litt 
> To: Paul Koning 
> Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com
> Subject: Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation
> Message-ID: <56d49629.6050...@ieee.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> 
> On 29-Feb-16 13:05, Paul Koning wrote:
>>> On Feb 29, 2016, at 12:59 PM, Timothe Litt  wrote:
>>> 
>>> ...
>>> I created a printer class driver layer for simh when I did PDF output for 
>>> all the emulators, but that went into a black hole of "more is not enough" 
>>> and did not find its way into simh/master.
>> I looked at PostScript output for a printer, which is fairly easy and makes 
>> it possible to do non-ASCII characters if the particular machine needs 
>> those.  In the end, I did it as an external program (small Python script) 
>> instead, but in SimH would certainly not be hard.  PS has the advantage that 
>> it's easy to generate and easy to see what's going on, and it can either be 
>> printed directly, or converted easily to PDF.
>> 
>>  
> PDF is an ISO archival standard and these days, more accessible than
> PS.  To do anything with postscript, you need to get add-on software -
> usually ghostscript.  Pretty much every PC, Mac and Linux box has a PDF
> reader out of the box.  Several web browsers have built-in PDF
> interpreters.  PDF supports non-ASCII characters.  And PDF supports
> embedding other media types.  You can (and I did) support compression
> and embedded images.
> 
> Anyhow, that's what I picked.
> 
> I did the work of generating PDF with green (or blue or ..) bar paper,
> tractor feed holes, background logos, form sizes, overstrike, queuing to
> a spool directory, appending, checkpointing, etc.  I had an escape
> sequence interpreter so anything not in the PDF character set (a
> superset of ASCII) could be generated fairly easily from a SimH driver. 
> I provided translations for 32 character sets, from ASCII to Greek to
> Technical.
> 
> I integrated it into all the simulators - not just DEC.  It didn't
> preclude .txt output.  But it became controversial for reasons not fully
> understood - and I was unwilling to keep implementing non-core features
> for specific host platforms. 
> 
> I had a lot of other pressures on my time.  I gave up.  I still think it
> was a nice piece of work, but clearly the community didn't.
> 
> Anyhow, the point is that it's feasible to build a class driver layer &
> FWIW, my strong opinion is that for LPD bridges and any output formats,
> that's the way to go.  Of course, given my experience, you might want to
> collect other opinions.


Larry Baker
US Geological Survey
650-329-5608
ba...@usgs.gov

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Re: [Simh] pdp11 and unix

[Rich Alderson]

> From: "Robert Thomas" 
> Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 12:37:19 -0500

> When I was in graduate school at Princeton in 1974, we used UNIX on a
> PDP-11/45 running Tex to typeset faculty papers, as well as writing compilers
> using lex and yacc and studying operating system and algorithm performance.
> Some graduate students over the summer ported UNIX to run on the IBM 370/195
> in a virtual machine.  There was a lot of activity going on that eventually
> escaped from academic labs into real commercial use.

Umm, no.  What you were using under Unix in 1974 would have been troff.

TeX was not invented until 1978.  It was written originally in SAIL on the
multiprocessor PDP-10 system at the Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
running the WAITS operating system (which diverged from the PDP-6/PDP-10
monitor c. 1971).  SAIL (the language) was also available under Tops-10 and
TOPS-20, but was restricted to the PDP-10 architecture.  Later it was
translated into Pascal.

A complete rewrite occurred in 1982, along with the creation of the WEB
literate programming system (Tangle, which creates unreadable Pascal code for
compilation, and Weave, which creates TeX code to document the program).  The
move to Unix (and elsewhere) came with the introduction of CWEB, which
generates C instead of Pascal.

Rich
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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Clem Cole]

Tim I'm going to guess that the AN22 implements the PDP-10 side of the BBN
1822 IMP interface. Is that a correct belief?

Bit Savers has the BBN 1822 document from 1976 (the original I think was
'72 - I had a xerox of that one).  I think I saw it about a week ago at
home, so I'm nearly 100% sure I have very clean copy of the actual
published in it's Yellow Cover from BBN, the later edition - which would
have been the one when the IP transition was taking place or at least
planned (i.e. post Arpanet - when IP was being created).  If so, I'll look
into getting it scanned and send an update to Al.   I'm pretty sure there
was changes when BBN implemented their own mini for the IMP (the C30 -
which later got re-microcoded to be  general purpose computer - the C70 "C
Machine").



I do not remember how CMU interfaced the 10's and C.mmp to their
(Honeywell) IMP.  I suspect it was either something like the AN22 or be a
Jim "Tetter Toy" that he cooked up (I never knew).   However, IIRC @ UCB
Ingres 11/70s a DR-11B with a little logic  (??Bob Kriddle hack maybe?? -
at one time I had my hand in it).  That was the UCB Arpanet interface for
many, many years --- until CSRG finally got a C30 IMP in Evans in the early
1980s.   Ing70 had a "very long host" interface from a Honeywell IMP that
was "up the hill" at LBL.Again, IIRC the C30 could do Ethernet to the
Vaxen.   Or maybe it was connected to the Ethernet via a C70 which was
connected the C30 (I've forgotten). But until the C30 showed up, the UCB
Arpanet/Internet connection was fairly shallow; unlike CMU, MIT or Stanford.

Clem

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Timothe Litt  wrote:

> On 29-Feb-16 12:34, b...@gewt.net wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Can anyone point me at IMP documentation for the KS10? I'm only seeing
> AN10 maintenance printsets up on Bitsavers...I'd love documentation that
> isn't KLH10's KS10-ITS implementation!
>
> Alternatively, were any of the experimental Ethernet interfaces ever
> supported in TOPS-10/20 on the KS10? (I don't have access to my SRI-NIC
> packs due to the VM being down at present)
>
> Alternatively too...the userland ANF-10 bridge could prove useful for
> this...
>
> Not clear what you want to do.
>
> The KS does have an ARPA interface, the AN22.  I have not tracked down a
> spec for it.  It is KMC-11 based, not simulated by SimH at present.  The
> TOPS-20 monitor sources for 4.1 are a resource.  One day I'll get access to
> my stuff at CHM and will look for a spec.  It's on my list to see if it's
> worth emulating.
>
> The DEUNA is simulated in SimH.  Neither the released TOPS-10 nor TOPS-20
> support it.  There is some TCP code floating around that does.
>
> If you're trying to move files in and out:
>   DECnet does work (phase II on TOPS-20, Phase III or IV on TOPS-20), and
> will talk to VAX/RSX.  You can move files by stopping on or PMR thru) one
> of them.
>
>   ANF-10 on the KS does work, KS-KS.  It should be possible to build the
> -11 nodes on the KS & boot them on a SimH -11.  I've been meaning to get
> around to that, but haven't.  With ANF, besides the peripherals and
> terminals, you get DCP.
>
>Networking on the KS is supported on both OSs by the KDP emulator.  The
> DMR should work, though I think there's a monitor bug in 7.04 where my
> colleagues changed AC definitions and didn't update the DMR driver.  Also
> on my list.
>
> You can also move files in and out with Kermit (serial lines), cards,
> magtape, printer.
>
> I don't know what you mean by 'anf-10 userland bridge'.  Of course, FAL on
> the -10 listens to both DECnet and ANF.
>
>
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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Phil Budne]

ISTR the AN22 IMP interface for the KS10 was only ever used in pre-TCP
Internet (aka "NCP") days (would that be TOPS-20 v3?). I doubt *THAT*
it what you're looking for (even if it's available), but the "IMP" has
been simulated in SIMH, so there would be something for it to talk to!

ISTR ITS running on KS10's used third party (ACC?) interfaces for
sending IP packets to IMPs.  When the IMP (connections?) went away,
the ITS KS10's were only accessible via CHAOSnet (the real thing,
using CH11 interfaces, not CHAOS over ethernet).

A bit of work was done at MIT for a third-party (Interlan?) Unibus
Ethernet for the KS10 ITS machines, but with the 14-byte Ethernet
header not being a multiple of four (the number of 8-bit bytes packed
into a 36-bit word), 32-bit TCP header fields were split across 36-bit
words, which drained _my_ enthusiasm for making a go at it!

Also on the NCP front, there is vestigial NCP code in ITS, but from
the era when AI/ML/DM were KA's and MC was a KL.  ISTR the MC
interface was home built part of a cabinet marked "KL-UDGE"??

p
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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Timothe Litt]

On 29-Feb-16 13:05, Paul Koning wrote:
>> On Feb 29, 2016, at 12:59 PM, Timothe Litt  wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> I created a printer class driver layer for simh when I did PDF output for 
>> all the emulators, but that went into a black hole of "more is not enough" 
>> and did not find its way into simh/master.
> I looked at PostScript output for a printer, which is fairly easy and makes 
> it possible to do non-ASCII characters if the particular machine needs those. 
>  In the end, I did it as an external program (small Python script) instead, 
> but in SimH would certainly not be hard.  PS has the advantage that it's easy 
> to generate and easy to see what's going on, and it can either be printed 
> directly, or converted easily to PDF.
>
>   
PDF is an ISO archival standard and these days, more accessible than
PS.  To do anything with postscript, you need to get add-on software -
usually ghostscript.  Pretty much every PC, Mac and Linux box has a PDF
reader out of the box.  Several web browsers have built-in PDF
interpreters.  PDF supports non-ASCII characters.  And PDF supports
embedding other media types.  You can (and I did) support compression
and embedded images.

Anyhow, that's what I picked.

I did the work of generating PDF with green (or blue or ..) bar paper,
tractor feed holes, background logos, form sizes, overstrike, queuing to
a spool directory, appending, checkpointing, etc.  I had an escape
sequence interpreter so anything not in the PDF character set (a
superset of ASCII) could be generated fairly easily from a SimH driver. 
I provided translations for 32 character sets, from ASCII to Greek to
Technical.

I integrated it into all the simulators - not just DEC.  It didn't
preclude .txt output.  But it became controversial for reasons not fully
understood - and I was unwilling to keep implementing non-core features
for specific host platforms. 

I had a lot of other pressures on my time.  I gave up.  I still think it
was a nice piece of work, but clearly the community didn't.

Anyhow, the point is that it's feasible to build a class driver layer &
FWIW, my strong opinion is that for LPD bridges and any output formats,
that's the way to go.  Of course, given my experience, you might want to
collect other opinions.





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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Paul Koning]

> On Feb 29, 2016, at 12:59 PM, Timothe Litt  wrote:
> 
> ...
> I created a printer class driver layer for simh when I did PDF output for all 
> the emulators, but that went into a black hole of "more is not enough" and 
> did not find its way into simh/master.

I looked at PostScript output for a printer, which is fairly easy and makes it 
possible to do non-ASCII characters if the particular machine needs those.  In 
the end, I did it as an external program (small Python script) instead, but in 
SimH would certainly not be hard.  PS has the advantage that it's easy to 
generate and easy to see what's going on, and it can either be printed 
directly, or converted easily to PDF.

paul


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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Timothe Litt]

On 29-Feb-16 12:43, Cory Smelosky wrote:
> [inline]
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 29, 2016, at 09:33, Timothe Litt  > wrote:
>
>> On 29-Feb-16 12:34, b...@gewt.net wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Can anyone point me at IMP documentation for the KS10? I'm only
>>> seeing AN10 maintenance printsets up on Bitsavers...I'd love
>>> documentation that isn't KLH10's KS10-ITS implementation!
>>>
>>> Alternatively, were any of the experimental Ethernet interfaces ever
>>> supported in TOPS-10/20 on the KS10? (I don't have access to my
>>> SRI-NIC packs due to the VM being down at present)
>>>
>>> Alternatively too...the userland ANF-10 bridge could prove useful
>>> for this...
>>>
>> Not clear what you want to do.
>
> Sorry - this is KS10 FPGA-related, too early in the morning ;)
>
>>
>> The KS does have an ARPA interface, the AN22.  I have not tracked
>> down a spec for it.  It is KMC-11 based, not simulated by SimH at
>> present.  The TOPS-20 monitor sources for 4.1 are a resource.  One
>> day I'll get access to my stuff at CHM and will look for a spec. 
>> It's on my list to see if it's worth emulating.
>
> That right there is immensely useful. KMC stuff already needs
> implemented for DECnet.
>
I implemented the KDP (Mark contributed most of the DUP), but the KMC
emulation is specific to the COMM-IOP (DDCMP) microcode.  It doesn't
execute the microcode - it's a higher-level implementation.  The DUP
talks DDCMP in a TCP connection, and only understands DDCMP - not the
other (bit stuffing) protocols.

>>
>> The DEUNA is simulated in SimH.  Neither the released TOPS-10 nor
>> TOPS-20 support it.  There is some TCP code floating around that does.
>
> I've now forgotten who wrote it...but I've tried it out!
>
>>
>> If you're trying to move files in and out:
>>   DECnet does work (phase II on TOPS-20, Phase III or IV on TOPS-20),
>> and will talk to VAX/RSX.  You can move files by stopping on or PMR
>> thru) one of them.
>
> Ah right - I forgot TOPS-20 was Phase II only...ARPA stuff would prove
> useful there, then.
>
You can work your way from Phase II to Phase III - e.g. the T10 phase
III will talk to T20, and any phase IV will talk to Phase III.
It's ugly, but works.
>>
>>   ANF-10 on the KS does work, KS-KS.  It should be possible to build
>> the -11 nodes on the KS & boot them on a SimH -11.  I've been meaning
>> to get around to that, but haven't.  With ANF, besides the
>> peripherals and terminals, you get DCP.
>
> Hmmm!
>
>>
>>Networking on the KS is supported on both OSs by the KDP
>> emulator.  The DMR should work, though I think there's a monitor bug
>> in 7.04 where my colleagues changed AC definitions and didn't update
>> the DMR driver.  Also on my list.
>
> Did the patches make it in to the "7.05" patches or was it forgotten
> then as well?
>
There is no 7.05 release.  I started a Github repo for that, but
populating it hasn't reached the top of my endless list.
Sigh.
>>
>> You can also move files in and out with Kermit (serial lines),
>> cards, magtape, printer.
>
> Magtape emulation and an LP20<--->lpd bridge...time to research if
> lwIP implements that!
>
LPTSPL will write to magtapes. 

I created a printer class driver layer for simh when I did PDF output
for all the emulators, but that went into a black hole of "more is not
enough" and did not find its way into simh/master.

A bridge to lpd should be done that way, and not as an LP20-specific hack.



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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Cory Smelosky]

[inline]

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 29, 2016, at 09:33, Timothe Litt  wrote:
> 
>> On 29-Feb-16 12:34, b...@gewt.net wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Can anyone point me at IMP documentation for the KS10? I'm only seeing AN10 
>> maintenance printsets up on Bitsavers...I'd love documentation that isn't 
>> KLH10's KS10-ITS implementation!
>> 
>> Alternatively, were any of the experimental Ethernet interfaces ever 
>> supported in TOPS-10/20 on the KS10? (I don't have access to my SRI-NIC 
>> packs due to the VM being down at present)
>> 
>> Alternatively too...the userland ANF-10 bridge could prove useful for this...
> Not clear what you want to do.

Sorry - this is KS10 FPGA-related, too early in the morning ;)

> 
> The KS does have an ARPA interface, the AN22.  I have not tracked down a spec 
> for it.  It is KMC-11 based, not simulated by SimH at present.  The TOPS-20 
> monitor sources for 4.1 are a resource.  One day I'll get access to my stuff 
> at CHM and will look for a spec.  It's on my list to see if it's worth 
> emulating.

That right there is immensely useful. KMC stuff already needs implemented for 
DECnet.

> 
> The DEUNA is simulated in SimH.  Neither the released TOPS-10 nor TOPS-20 
> support it.  There is some TCP code floating around that does.

I've now forgotten who wrote it...but I've tried it out!

> 
> If you're trying to move files in and out:
>   DECnet does work (phase II on TOPS-20, Phase III or IV on TOPS-20), and 
> will talk to VAX/RSX.  You can move files by stopping on or PMR thru) one of 
> them.

Ah right - I forgot TOPS-20 was Phase II only...ARPA stuff would prove useful 
there, then.

> 
>   ANF-10 on the KS does work, KS-KS.  It should be possible to build the -11 
> nodes on the KS & boot them on a SimH -11.  I've been meaning to get around 
> to that, but haven't.  With ANF, besides the peripherals and terminals, you 
> get DCP.

Hmmm!

> 
>Networking on the KS is supported on both OSs by the KDP emulator.  The 
> DMR should work, though I think there's a monitor bug in 7.04 where my 
> colleagues changed AC definitions and didn't update the DMR driver.  Also on 
> my list.

Did the patches make it in to the "7.05" patches or was it forgotten then as 
well?

> 
> You can also move files in and out with Kermit (serial lines), cards, 
> magtape, printer.

Magtape emulation and an LP20<--->lpd bridge...time to research if lwIP 
implements that!

> 
> I don't know what you mean by 'anf-10 userland bridge'.  Of course, FAL on 
> the -10 listens to both DECnet and ANF.

I think that was a Johnny E. Project...a bridge exists in Linux user land.

> 
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Re: [Simh] pdp11 and unix

[Robert Thomas]

My first programming experience was on an IBM 1620.  I had a chance to write 
very simple programs in GOTRAN (an early FORTRAN that ran on the 1620).  My 
mother was in charge of the company's computational facilities.  Prior to the 
1620 they had an IBM 730 (?) that was programmed via wiring boards.  Those 
early computers were slow, but for complex scientific calculations freed 
research engineers from performing those calculations.  24 to 48 hour program 
runs were common.  We used to watch the address and data lights on the console 
to see if the program was caught in an infinite loop, and used the front panel 
switches to turn on and off diagnostic printouts.  The 1620 was replaced by an 
IBM 1130 to be replaced by a PDP-11/20.

When I was in graduate school at Princeton in 1974, we used UNIX on a PDP-11/45 
running Tex to typeset faculty papers, as well as writing compilers using lex 
and yacc and studying operating system and algorithm performance.  Some 
graduate students over the summer ported UNIX to run on the IBM 370/195 in a 
virtual machine.  There was a lot of activity going on that eventually escaped 
from academic labs into real commercial use.

I used to know by memory the bootstrap toggles for the PDP-8's and PDP-11/20, 
and then bootstrap the fan fold paper tape bootstrap on the ASR-33.  Things 
that are forgotten and not missed.

Sincerely,
Robert F. Thomas

 44 Industrial Way 
Norwood, MA USA 02062
N  Office Phone - (781) 329-9200
O mail to: r...@asthomas.com
 

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From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of 
simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com
Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 12:00 PM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Simh Digest, Vol 145, Issue 121

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re:  pdp11 and unix (Andreas Davour)
   2. Re:  Klh10 vs Simh (Peter Svensson)
   3. Re:  pdp11 and unix (Paul Koning)


--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 09:38:36 +0100 (CET)
From: Andreas Davour 
To: li...@openmailbox.org
Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] pdp11 and unix
Message-ID:

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Mon, 29 Feb 2016, li...@openmailbox.org wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Feb 2016 08:49:15 +0100 (CET) Andreas Davour 
>  wrote:
>
>> "The over-all design of the LISP Programming System is the work of 
>> John McCarthy and is based on his paper NRecursive Functions of 
>> Symbolic Expressions and Their Computation by Machinett which was 
>> published in Communications of the ACM, April 1960."
>> 
>> So that timeframe is sound.
>
> It's interesting how many of the oldest languages are still in active 
> use and still moving forwards after so many years. There seems to have 
> been some kind of golden age of programming that started in late 1950s 
> and went for about a decade.

Sometimes you get it right the first time. ;)

/andreas

--
"economics is a pseudoscience; the astrology of our time"
Kim Stanley Robinson


--

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 11:22:51 +0100 (CET)
From: Peter Svensson 
To: TJ Merritt 
Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] Klh10 vs Simh
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

Hi,

I think that most cards under both Linux and Windows ( >= 7) can support more 
than one association and thus can support simulated devices with their own 
802.3 source MAC address. Windows supports attaching several times via their 
WiFi virtual MiniPort driver and Linux supports them for most cards via the 
'iw' command to add more interfaces. But 4-address mode is nicer, for sure. :-)

Most low-cost APs support 4-address mode (a.k.a. WDS), wither natively or by 
loading a better firmware (I use OpenWRT). But 4-address mode is not strictly 
needed if the simulation can make do with only one source 802.3 MAC address.

Peter



On Sun, 28 Feb 2016, TJ Merritt wrote:

> https://www.safaribooksonline.com/library/view/80211-wireless-networks
> /0596100523/ch04.html
>
> This provides some nice graphics for different topologies.  For 
> bridging to work (aka the simh), the WDS case is required.  Most 
> consumer wifi for mobile devices figure that they only have to support 
> their own MAC address and do not support WDS correctly. 

Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Timothe Litt]

On 29-Feb-16 12:34, b...@gewt.net wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Can anyone point me at IMP documentation for the KS10? I'm only seeing
> AN10 maintenance printsets up on Bitsavers...I'd love documentation
> that isn't KLH10's KS10-ITS implementation!
>
> Alternatively, were any of the experimental Ethernet interfaces ever
> supported in TOPS-10/20 on the KS10? (I don't have access to my
> SRI-NIC packs due to the VM being down at present)
>
> Alternatively too...the userland ANF-10 bridge could prove useful for
> this...
>
Not clear what you want to do.

The KS does have an ARPA interface, the AN22.  I have not tracked down a
spec for it.  It is KMC-11 based, not simulated by SimH at present.  The
TOPS-20 monitor sources for 4.1 are a resource.  One day I'll get access
to my stuff at CHM and will look for a spec.  It's on my list to see if
it's worth emulating.

The DEUNA is simulated in SimH.  Neither the released TOPS-10 nor
TOPS-20 support it.  There is some TCP code floating around that does.

If you're trying to move files in and out:
  DECnet does work (phase II on TOPS-20, Phase III or IV on TOPS-20),
and will talk to VAX/RSX.  You can move files by stopping on or PMR
thru) one of them.

  ANF-10 on the KS does work, KS-KS.  It should be possible to build the
-11 nodes on the KS & boot them on a SimH -11.  I've been meaning to get
around to that, but haven't.  With ANF, besides the peripherals and
terminals, you get DCP.

   Networking on the KS is supported on both OSs by the KDP emulator. 
The DMR should work, though I think there's a monitor bug in 7.04 where
my colleagues changed AC definitions and didn't update the DMR driver. 
Also on my list.

You can also move files in and out with Kermit (serial lines),
cards, magtape, printer.

I don't know what you mean by 'anf-10 userland bridge'.  Of course, FAL
on the -10 listens to both DECnet and ANF.



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[Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[b4]

Hello, 

Can anyone point me at IMP documentation for the KS10? I'm only seeing AN10 
maintenance printsets up on Bitsavers...I'd love documentation that isn't 
KLH10's KS10-ITS implementation! 

Alternatively, were any of the experimental Ethernet interfaces ever supported 
in TOPS-10/20 on the KS10? (I don't have access to my SRI-NIC packs due to the 
VM being down at present) 

Alternatively too...the userland ANF-10 bridge could prove useful for this... 
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Re: [Simh] pdp11 and unix

[Paul Koning]

> On Feb 29, 2016, at 1:21 AM, li...@openmailbox.org wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 17:32:19 -0500
> Paul Koning  wrote:
> 
>> Decimal did show up at times even into the 1960s, for example in the IBM
>> 1620.  But it never made all that much sense; converting between binary
>> and decimal is quite easy even in those very old machines.  The one
>> plausible application area is business data processing where the
>> arithmetic is trivial and most of the work is I/O or other non-arithmetic
>> operations.
> 
> IBM S/360 (1964) and follow-ons have all had hardware support for decimal
> and COBOL and PL/I on these platforms have always had native suport for the
> data type.
> 
> As you might expect decimal arithmetic is used extensively in financial
> transactions and reporting since there is no problem of conversion. Money
> can be represented exactly rather than approximately as with floating
> point. Most banks still run their financial transactions on IBM hardware
> and OS for that reason among others.

Most 360s, actually; the 360 model 44 didn't have decimal instructions (except 
via an emulator -- like the later microVAXen with their subset instruction 
sets).

I wasn't referring to packed decimal instructions for binary machines; those 
stayed around for a long time.  Even VAX had them, at least originally.  I was 
talking about decimal machines, with memories organized in decimal digits.  The 
last computer I can think of that fits that description is the IBM 1620, from 
the early 1960s.

paul

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Re: [Simh] Klh10 vs Simh

[Peter Svensson]

Hi,

I think that most cards under both Linux and Windows ( >= 7) can support 
more than one association and thus can support simulated devices with 
their own 802.3 source MAC address. Windows supports attaching several 
times via their WiFi virtual MiniPort driver and Linux supports them for 
most cards via the 'iw' command to add more interfaces. But 4-address mode 
is nicer, for sure. :-)


Most low-cost APs support 4-address mode (a.k.a. WDS), wither natively or 
by loading a better firmware (I use OpenWRT). But 4-address mode is not 
strictly needed if the simulation can make do with only one source 802.3 
MAC address.


Peter



On Sun, 28 Feb 2016, TJ Merritt wrote:


https://www.safaribooksonline.com/library/view/80211-wireless-networks/0596100523/ch04.html

This provides some nice graphics for different topologies.  For bridging to 
work (aka the simh), the WDS case is required.  Most consumer wifi for mobile 
devices figure that they only have to support their own MAC address and do 
not support WDS correctly. That is why SimH on your laptop cannot tunnel 
packets sent over WiFi.  It's out going packets go out to the AP in 
infrastructure mode (Fig. 4-10).  The RA is the Mac address of the base 
station, SA is the MAC address of the laptop, and DA is the dest. address 
from the tap/tun interfaces ethernet frame.  Note that the source address 
from the frame has now been dropped.   The Reply packet to SimH will be 
received by the laptop (Fig. 4-9) with DA set to the MAC address of the 
laptop's WiFi interface, TA set to the base stations Mac Address, and SA set 
to the source address from the original ethernet frame.  Note that the SimH 
MAC address is not included, so the frame will not be bridged to the tap/tun 
interface and seen by SimH.   If WDS is used, then you can still have issues 
with base stations not processing the frames correctly.  Higher end WiFi 
access points generally work correctly, but it doesn't help you run SimH on 
your laptop with a consumer grade WiFi interface.  Any easy way to see what 
is happening in your configuration is to run tcpdump on the wifi interface of 
your laptop.  You will likely see the frames that should go to SImH being 
received by the laptop, but the destination ethernet address will be that of 
the laptop not that of the SimH tap/run interface.  Your host OS won't know 
what to do with them, and they will be dropped by your laptop.


On 02/28/2016 05:28 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:

 I must admit that my WiFi knowledge is a bit sketchy, but on the other
 hand do I think that I know ethernet...

 But reading up on 802.11, I don't see what you mean by 802.1. I'm not even
 sure what 802.1 actually says.

 However, 802.11 uses 802.2 for packets, which is unlike ethernet, which is
 not an 802 protocol at all.

 Also, reading up on 802.11, it appears that source and destination MAC
 address are always present. However, there are potentially two more MAC
 addresses in the packet, which I have not found much good information
 about yet. Wikipedia suggest the third is for filtering purposes, and do
 not even explain the fourth one.

 What I do know, from observation, is that if I have something like simh
 setup to communicate over WiFi, packets do get sent out, but my simh
 instance will not receive any unicast packets to it, which suggests that
 the switch do not send such packets out over WiFi to the correct
 destination. I would assume it is because switches knows which stations
 actually do exist, but that is a guess on my part.

 Johnny

 On 2016-02-28 07:29, Peter Svensson wrote:
>  Hi all,
> 
>  The answers given last time were not all that accurate. WiFi for

>  historical reasons conserve bandwidth by assuming that the client side
>  802.11 mac address is the same as the 802.1 sender mac address and thus
>  omits the latter. This is the so called 3-address mode. This does not
>  leave any room for more than one 802.1 mac address on a client.
> 
>  However, there is also a 4 address mode for WiFi which does support

>  bridging since the 802.1 frames are transported verbatim. This mode has
>  many different names from vendors. Most commonly it goes by the name
>  WDS, but that name is unfortunately also used by a bunch of non
>  transparent mechanisms from other vendors.
> 
>  See e.g. http://linuxwireless.org/en/users/Documentation/iw/
> 
>  802.11 does not care about broadcast one way or another. It is just

>  transported. It does not care what layer 3 is used (except only one
>  layer 2 sec address in 3 address mode).
> 
>  The decision to save 6 bytes is an unfortunate historical artefact. The

>  (802.11 standard) option to not save these bytes is not always exposed
>  on wifi equipment. Some does, and most can I'd you run OpenWrt or
>  similar software on them. Not sure about Windows though.
> 
>  Peter
> 
>  On February 27, 2016 11:01:31 PM GMT+01:00, Johnny Billquist

>   wrote:
> 
>  On 2016-02-27 20:14, Andreas 

Re: [Simh] pdp11 and unix

[Wilm Boerhout]

li...@openmailbox.org schreef op 29-2-2016 om 07:21:

On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 17:32:19 -0500
Paul Koning  wrote:


Decimal did show up at times even into the 1960s, for example in the IBM
1620.  But it never made all that much sense; converting between binary
and decimal is quite easy even in those very old machines.  The one
plausible application area is business data processing where the
arithmetic is trivial and most of the work is I/O or other non-arithmetic
operations.

IBM S/360 (1964) and follow-ons have all had hardware support for decimal
and COBOL and PL/I on these platforms have always had native suport for the
data type.

As you might expect decimal arithmetic is used extensively in financial
transactions and reporting since there is no problem of conversion. Money
can be represented exactly rather than approximately as with floating
point. Most banks still run their financial transactions on IBM hardware
and OS for that reason among others.



This binary/decimal discussion stirred up some memories...

By the time Donald Knuth wrote his first volumes "The Art of Computer 
Programming", (1968-1970) the binary/decimal discussion was sufficently 
alive that he designed his virtual MIX computer (presumably in the years 
before publication) explicitly as "binary/decimal agnostic". This 
allowed for implementations/simulations on both binary and decimal 
platforms.


/Wilm
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Re: [Simh] pdp11 and unix

[lists]

On Mon, 29 Feb 2016 08:49:15 +0100 (CET)
Andreas Davour  wrote:

> "The over-all design of the LISP Programming System is the work of
> John McCarthy and is based on his paper NRecursive Functions of
> Symbolic Expressions and Their Computation by Machinett which was
> published in Communications of the ACM, April 1960."
> 
> So that timeframe is sound.

It's interesting how many of the oldest languages are still in active use
and still moving forwards after so many years. There seems to have been
some kind of golden age of programming that started in late 1950s and went
for about a decade.

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