Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware

[Tim Stark]

Yeah.  I know that but I like to emulate HSC and HSJ servers for SIMH and other 
emulators via TCP links. 

It uses SCS or SCA packets that embeds MSCP/TMSCP packets. 

Tim

-Original Message-
From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Phil Budne
Sent: Monday, March 6, 2017 8:43 PM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware

I know I'm being a spoil-sport, and I don't deny it would be fun to create a 
"star coupler" network server, but.

Wouldn't it be possible (if less fun) to have the simulator interpret the 
contents of the CI packets (which might just contain MSCP)?

Isn't clustering over Ethernet available under VMS, delivering the same 
end-user experience?  Modern (Gbit) Ethernet is faster than CI ever was.
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Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware

[Tim Stark]

Hmm, interesting.  K.scsi is not mentioned in my HSC50/70 docs.  Does anyone 
have any docs contains K.scsi tech info?

Thanks again,
Tim

-Original Message-
From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist
Sent: Monday, March 6, 2017 6:47 PM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware

On 2017-03-06 15:03, Timothe Litt wrote:
> There were also HSC40 & hsc60.

Right. Pretty similar to all the others. The differences (as far as I can 
remember) were mostly on the number of SDI/STI ports available, and the amount 
of cache in the machine.

> The differences in the hsc family members were the processor, cache, 
> load device, number of channels, and maximum number of ports.  Some 
> models were field-upgradable.  Also, later models supported
> (reluctantly) the K.scsi module, which allowed the HSC to serve SCSI 
> disks and tapes.  (SCSI was carefully analyzed & found to have 
> reliability/data integrity issues; DEC's answer was DSSI.  Rather like 
> Beta & VHS - "good enough, but cheaper" won.)

Right. However, to use the K.scsi, you actually needed to upgrade. The
HSC90 with the capability to use K.scsi was the HSC95. I don't think the
HSC70 could at all. The 40 and 60 could, I think, but I wonder if they then 
were renamed 45 and 65. I think I still have some documentation somewhere, but 
it would take some digging to find this.

> At some point, support for 18-bit disks (576 byte sectors) was dropped.
> The HSC50 definitely had it; the HSC90 did not.  I'm unsure about the HSC70.

Unless I remember totally wrong, only the HSC50 could do 576 byte sectors. It 
was dropped in a pretty early version of CRONIC, before support for any other 
HSC controller existed.

Johnny


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Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware

[Tim Stark]

Ok, I now got it. I downloaded and reviewed scanned docs that Tim Litt pointed 
to.  Yes, HSC70 is upgradable to HSC90. 

I will start with HSC70/90 emulation development then HSC50 and others...

Also I learned that CI became DSSI (SCSI version of CI) later.  They provides 
SHAC tech docs for VAX 4000 series (KA660 to KA690) and others.

Does anyone have HSJ tech docs for DSSI and SCS/SCA packet docs?

Thanks again,
Tim

-Original Message-
From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist
Sent: Monday, March 6, 2017 6:43 PM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware

On 2017-03-06 14:39, Tim Stark wrote:
> I reviewed HSC50/70 tech docs.  Yeah.  They are PDP-11 machines.  HSC50 uses 
> TU58 and is F11 processor.  HSC70 uses floppy drive and is J11 processor.
>
> They uses SDI and STI devices through two Qbus registers with MSCP/TMSCP 
> packets.
>
> I am interested to get copies of floppy and tape images for loading software.
>
> I have not find HSC90 tech docs yet.

The HSC90 is pretty similar to the HSC70. I would have to go and check more 
documentation, but I think the HSC70 was upgradeable to a HSC90.
I think the HSC90 had much more cache memory, but they both certainly use the 
J11, and the same modules for SDI and STI, along with the CI.

The HSC90 can have more ports though. But there is not a whole lot of 
difference.

Johnny


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Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2017-03-06 15:03, Timothe Litt wrote:

There were also HSC40 & hsc60.


Right. Pretty similar to all the others. The differences (as far as I 
can remember) were mostly on the number of SDI/STI ports available, and 
the amount of cache in the machine.



The differences in the hsc family members were the processor, cache,
load device, number of channels, and maximum number of ports.  Some
models were field-upgradable.  Also, later models supported
(reluctantly) the K.scsi module, which allowed the HSC to serve SCSI
disks and tapes.  (SCSI was carefully analyzed & found to have
reliability/data integrity issues; DEC's answer was DSSI.  Rather like
Beta & VHS - "good enough, but cheaper" won.)


Right. However, to use the K.scsi, you actually needed to upgrade. The 
HSC90 with the capability to use K.scsi was the HSC95. I don't think the 
HSC70 could at all. The 40 and 60 could, I think, but I wonder if they 
then were renamed 45 and 65. I think I still have some documentation 
somewhere, but it would take some digging to find this.



At some point, support for 18-bit disks (576 byte sectors) was dropped.
The HSC50 definitely had it; the HSC90 did not.  I'm unsure about the HSC70.


Unless I remember totally wrong, only the HSC50 could do 576 byte 
sectors. It was dropped in a pretty early version of CRONIC, before 
support for any other HSC controller existed.


Johnny



There's a fair bit of configuration information in
http://decdoc.itsx.net/dec94mds/hscmnin2.pdf


On 06-Mar-17 08:39, Tim Stark wrote:

I reviewed HSC50/70 tech docs.  Yeah.  They are PDP-11 machines.  HSC50 uses 
TU58 and is F11 processor.  HSC70 uses floppy drive and is J11 processor.

They uses SDI and STI devices through two Qbus registers with MSCP/TMSCP 
packets.

I am interested to get copies of floppy and tape images for loading software.

I have not find HSC90 tech docs yet.

Thanks,
Tim

-Original Message-
From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Anders Magnusson
Sent: Monday, March 6, 2017 7:33 AM
To: Johnny Billquist ; simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware

Den 2017-03-06 kl. 11:27, skrev Johnny Billquist:

On 2017-03-06 09:51, Anders Magnusson wrote:

Den 2017-03-05 kl. 14:06, skrev Tim Stark:

Folks,



I discovered CI750 tech docs when I searched for some CPU processors
for VAX emulation. I downloaded and reviewed it.  CI emulation can
be implemented for emulator to link to other VAX/Alpha emulators as
VMScluster. Does anyone find CI780 emulation for VAX-11/780 and VAX
86x0 yet?  Also I found HSC 50/70 tech docs but do not have software
at this time.


Hm, there is a small chance that I may have the HSC50 Cronic floppies
somewhere, is that what you are thinking about?

Heh. If it's for the HSC50, it will be DECtape II.
We might still have a set around at Update, but it's been years since
I saw them, and we don't have any HSC50 anymore. We still have a HSC90
though, with the floppy.

Oh, of course!  Hm, it must be for a 70 (or 90) then.  Sorry :-)

-- R
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Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2017-03-06 14:39, Tim Stark wrote:

I reviewed HSC50/70 tech docs.  Yeah.  They are PDP-11 machines.  HSC50 uses 
TU58 and is F11 processor.  HSC70 uses floppy drive and is J11 processor.

They uses SDI and STI devices through two Qbus registers with MSCP/TMSCP 
packets.

I am interested to get copies of floppy and tape images for loading software.

I have not find HSC90 tech docs yet.


The HSC90 is pretty similar to the HSC70. I would have to go and check 
more documentation, but I think the HSC70 was upgradeable to a HSC90.
I think the HSC90 had much more cache memory, but they both certainly 
use the J11, and the same modules for SDI and STI, along with the CI.


The HSC90 can have more ports though. But there is not a whole lot of 
difference.


Johnny



Thanks,
Tim

-Original Message-
From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Anders Magnusson
Sent: Monday, March 6, 2017 7:33 AM
To: Johnny Billquist ; simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware

Den 2017-03-06 kl. 11:27, skrev Johnny Billquist:

On 2017-03-06 09:51, Anders Magnusson wrote:

Den 2017-03-05 kl. 14:06, skrev Tim Stark:


Folks,



I discovered CI750 tech docs when I searched for some CPU processors
for VAX emulation. I downloaded and reviewed it.  CI emulation can
be implemented for emulator to link to other VAX/Alpha emulators as
VMScluster. Does anyone find CI780 emulation for VAX-11/780 and VAX
86x0 yet?  Also I found HSC 50/70 tech docs but do not have software
at this time.


Hm, there is a small chance that I may have the HSC50 Cronic floppies
somewhere, is that what you are thinking about?


Heh. If it's for the HSC50, it will be DECtape II.
We might still have a set around at Update, but it's been years since
I saw them, and we don't have any HSC50 anymore. We still have a HSC90
though, with the floppy.

Oh, of course!  Hm, it must be for a 70 (or 90) then.  Sorry :-)

-- R
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  ||  on a psychedelic trip
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Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware

[Timothe Litt]

There were also HSC40 & hsc60. 

The differences in the hsc family members were the processor, cache,
load device, number of channels, and maximum number of ports.  Some
models were field-upgradable.  Also, later models supported
(reluctantly) the K.scsi module, which allowed the HSC to serve SCSI
disks and tapes.  (SCSI was carefully analyzed & found to have
reliability/data integrity issues; DEC's answer was DSSI.  Rather like
Beta & VHS - "good enough, but cheaper" won.)

At some point, support for 18-bit disks (576 byte sectors) was dropped. 
The HSC50 definitely had it; the HSC90 did not.  I'm unsure about the HSC70.

There's a fair bit of configuration information in
http://decdoc.itsx.net/dec94mds/hscmnin2.pdf


On 06-Mar-17 08:39, Tim Stark wrote:
> I reviewed HSC50/70 tech docs.  Yeah.  They are PDP-11 machines.  HSC50 uses 
> TU58 and is F11 processor.  HSC70 uses floppy drive and is J11 processor.
>
> They uses SDI and STI devices through two Qbus registers with MSCP/TMSCP 
> packets.
>
> I am interested to get copies of floppy and tape images for loading software.
>
> I have not find HSC90 tech docs yet. 
>
> Thanks,
> Tim
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Anders 
> Magnusson
> Sent: Monday, March 6, 2017 7:33 AM
> To: Johnny Billquist ; simh@trailing-edge.com
> Subject: Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware
>
> Den 2017-03-06 kl. 11:27, skrev Johnny Billquist:
>> On 2017-03-06 09:51, Anders Magnusson wrote:
>>> Den 2017-03-05 kl. 14:06, skrev Tim Stark:
 Folks,



 I discovered CI750 tech docs when I searched for some CPU processors 
 for VAX emulation. I downloaded and reviewed it.  CI emulation can 
 be implemented for emulator to link to other VAX/Alpha emulators as 
 VMScluster. Does anyone find CI780 emulation for VAX-11/780 and VAX
 86x0 yet?  Also I found HSC 50/70 tech docs but do not have software 
 at this time.

>>> Hm, there is a small chance that I may have the HSC50 Cronic floppies 
>>> somewhere, is that what you are thinking about?
>> Heh. If it's for the HSC50, it will be DECtape II.
>> We might still have a set around at Update, but it's been years since 
>> I saw them, and we don't have any HSC50 anymore. We still have a HSC90 
>> though, with the floppy.
> Oh, of course!  Hm, it must be for a 70 (or 90) then.  Sorry :-)
>
> -- R
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Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware

[Tim Stark]

I reviewed HSC50/70 tech docs.  Yeah.  They are PDP-11 machines.  HSC50 uses 
TU58 and is F11 processor.  HSC70 uses floppy drive and is J11 processor.

They uses SDI and STI devices through two Qbus registers with MSCP/TMSCP 
packets.

I am interested to get copies of floppy and tape images for loading software.

I have not find HSC90 tech docs yet. 

Thanks,
Tim

-Original Message-
From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Anders Magnusson
Sent: Monday, March 6, 2017 7:33 AM
To: Johnny Billquist ; simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware

Den 2017-03-06 kl. 11:27, skrev Johnny Billquist:
> On 2017-03-06 09:51, Anders Magnusson wrote:
>> Den 2017-03-05 kl. 14:06, skrev Tim Stark:
>>>
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I discovered CI750 tech docs when I searched for some CPU processors 
>>> for VAX emulation. I downloaded and reviewed it.  CI emulation can 
>>> be implemented for emulator to link to other VAX/Alpha emulators as 
>>> VMScluster. Does anyone find CI780 emulation for VAX-11/780 and VAX
>>> 86x0 yet?  Also I found HSC 50/70 tech docs but do not have software 
>>> at this time.
>>>
>> Hm, there is a small chance that I may have the HSC50 Cronic floppies 
>> somewhere, is that what you are thinking about?
>
> Heh. If it's for the HSC50, it will be DECtape II.
> We might still have a set around at Update, but it's been years since 
> I saw them, and we don't have any HSC50 anymore. We still have a HSC90 
> though, with the floppy.
Oh, of course!  Hm, it must be for a 70 (or 90) then.  Sorry :-)

-- R
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Re: [Simh] A couple of newbie SimH questions

[Jacob Goense]

On 2017-03-06 11:58, Warren Toomey wrote:
I've tried all of the SET CPU IDLE values and I can't find a value that 
lowers
the CPU usage below 100%. Is there a compile flag that I need to set? 
The

host system is Ubuntu 15.10 and Linux 4.2.0-42-generic.


I guess idle pattern detection missing or broken in simh for the 
particular

guest OS. I'll have a look.


and I can happily telnet in. Now I want to set up two SimH instances so
that one DZ line connects the two together. I've read the 
vax780_doc.doc

but I can't see how to configure an outbound connection.


This is much better document in the top comment section in
https://github.com/simh/simh/blob/master/sim_tmxr.c

A snippet below. Let me know if that doesn't help.

Line specific tcp listening ports are supported.  These are 
configured

using commands of the form:

sim> attach MUX Line=2,port{;notelnet}
Direct computer to computer connections (Virutal Null Modem cables) 
may

be established using the telnet protocol or via raw tcp sockets.

sim> attach MUX Line=2,Connect=host:port{;notelnet}
Computer to computer virtual connections can be one way (as 
illustrated
above) or symmetric.  A symmetric connection is configured by 
combining

a one way connection with a tcp listening port on the same line:
sim> attach MUX Line=2,Connect=host:port,listenport
When symmetric virtual connections are configured, incoming 
connections
on the specified listening port are checked to assure that they 
actually

come from the specified connection destination host system.
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Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware

[Anders Magnusson]

Den 2017-03-06 kl. 11:27, skrev Johnny Billquist:

On 2017-03-06 09:51, Anders Magnusson wrote:

Den 2017-03-05 kl. 14:06, skrev Tim Stark:


Folks,



I discovered CI750 tech docs when I searched for some CPU processors
for VAX emulation. I downloaded and reviewed it.  CI emulation can be
implemented for emulator to link to other VAX/Alpha emulators as
VMScluster. Does anyone find CI780 emulation for VAX-11/780 and VAX
86x0 yet?  Also I found HSC 50/70 tech docs but do not have software
at this time.


Hm, there is a small chance that I may have the HSC50 Cronic floppies
somewhere, is that what you are thinking about?


Heh. If it's for the HSC50, it will be DECtape II.
We might still have a set around at Update, but it's been years since 
I saw them, and we don't have any HSC50 anymore. We still have a HSC90 
though, with the floppy.

Oh, of course!  Hm, it must be for a 70 (or 90) then.  Sorry :-)

-- R
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[Simh] A couple of newbie SimH questions

[Warren Toomey]

Hi all, as part of the preparation for the Unix 50th anniversary in 2019,
I'm starting to get some Unix images up and running on SimH. What I want to
get done is to recreate some of the early networking, in particular uucp
and Usenet on top of it (with C-News).

I've built 4.2BSD and 4.3BSD images as per the instructions here:
http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_4.2_BSD_on_SIMH
http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_4.3_BSD_on_SIMH

and these run fine on SimH VAX 11/780 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 
7c5792e9

I've tried all of the SET CPU IDLE values and I can't find a value that lowers
the CPU usage below 100%. Is there a compile flag that I need to set? The
host system is Ubuntu 15.10 and Linux 4.2.0-42-generic.

I've set up a DZ device with:
set dz lines=8
att dz 
set dz 7b

and I can happily telnet in. Now I want to set up two SimH instances so
that one DZ line connects the two together. I've read the vax780_doc.doc
but I can't see how to configure an outbound connection.

Many thanks for any tips and suggestions,
Warren


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Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2017-03-06 09:51, Anders Magnusson wrote:

Den 2017-03-05 kl. 14:06, skrev Tim Stark:


Folks,



I discovered CI750 tech docs when I searched for some CPU processors
for VAX emulation. I downloaded and reviewed it.  CI emulation can be
implemented for emulator to link to other VAX/Alpha emulators as
VMScluster. Does anyone find CI780 emulation for VAX-11/780 and VAX
86x0 yet?  Also I found HSC 50/70 tech docs but do not have software
at this time.


Hm, there is a small chance that I may have the HSC50 Cronic floppies
somewhere, is that what you are thinking about?


Heh. If it's for the HSC50, it will be DECtape II.
We might still have a set around at Update, but it's been years since I 
saw them, and we don't have any HSC50 anymore. We still have a HSC90 
though, with the floppy.


Johnny

--
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  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
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Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware

[Anders Magnusson]

Den 2017-03-05 kl. 14:06, skrev Tim Stark:


Folks,

I discovered CI750 tech docs when I searched for some CPU processors 
for VAX emulation. I downloaded and reviewed it.  CI emulation can be 
implemented for emulator to link to other VAX/Alpha emulators as 
VMScluster. Does anyone find CI780 emulation for VAX-11/780 and VAX 
86x0 yet?  Also I found HSC 50/70 tech docs but do not have software 
at this time.


Hm, there is a small chance that I may have the HSC50 Cronic floppies 
somewhere, is that what you are thinking about?


-- Ragge
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Re: [Simh] CI750 tech docs and VAX firmware

[Mark Pizzolato]

On Sunday, March 5, 2017 at 5:07 AM, Tim Stark wrote:
> I discovered CI750 tech docs when I searched for some CPU processors 
> for VAX emulation. I downloaded and reviewed it.  CI emulation can 
> be implemented for emulator to link to other VAX/Alpha emulators 
> as VMScluster. Does anyone find CI780 emulation for VAX-11/780 
> and VAX 86x0 yet?  Also I found HSC 50/70 tech docs but do not 
> have software at this time. 

Matt Burke (the author of the additional VAX simulators beyond the 
VAX780 and the VAX3900), had mentioned something about some
work he'd done with CI stuff.  I presume that none of that was 
ever completed enough since he'd never passed any of that across.

> Since SIMH's VAX firmware (KA6x0) were modified for emulation, 
> I am looking for unmodified KA6x0 ROM images.  

The original KA655 ROM is in the github repo as VAX/ka655_orig.bin

- Mark


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