[singularity] The Extropian Creed by Ben
Sorry if you've all read this: http://www.goertzel.org/benzine/extropians.htm But I found it a v. well written sympathetic critique of extropianism highly recommend it. What do people think of its call for a humanist transhumanism? - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=4007604id_secret=87871446-3cd1ef
Re: [singularity] The Extropian Creed by Ben
On Jan 20, 2008 3:06 PM, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry if you've all read this: http://www.goertzel.org/benzine/extropians.htm But I found it a v. well written sympathetic critique of extropianism highly recommend it. What do people think of its call for a humanist transhumanism? Thanks Mike for highlighting this informative essay. I think that first and foremost we must not embrace mystery. Ben argues against oversimplifying, but are we honest in adding in details that we don't sufficiently understand? For each irresponsibly added detail brings us away from reality. Preferring a fabulous wrong impression over a simple speckle of truth is not virtuous. Humans don't have stable morality. They learn, they go mad. What is it about evolutionary preprogrammed reinforcers that makes them exceptional before other random concoctions? They have a good position of power, many people obey them. If one argues for personal moral freedom, it's not about enforcing freedom on others, it's about liberating oneself from influence of others. There is no reason in choosing a moral stance if you don't know what effect it will have. Seek understanding if you want to hold back an existing moral plague, including the part you embody yourself. -- Vladimir Nesovmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=4007604id_secret=87886040-d08b59
Re: [singularity] The Extropian Creed by Ben
Hi, FYI, that essay was an article I wrote for the German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemaine Zeitung in 2001 ... it was translated to German and published... An elaborated, somewhat modified version was included as a chapter in the 2005 book The Path to Posthumanity (P2P) by myself and Stephan Vladimir Bugaj. I have uploaded the P2P version of the chapter here: http://www.goertzel.org/Chapter12_aug16_05.pdf BTW that book will in 2008 be updated and re-issued with a different title. Ben On Jan 20, 2008 7:06 AM, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry if you've all read this: http://www.goertzel.org/benzine/extropians.htm But I found it a v. well written sympathetic critique of extropianism highly recommend it. What do people think of its call for a humanist transhumanism? - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?; -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] We are on the edge of change comparable to the rise of human life on Earth. -- Vernor Vinge - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=4007604id_secret=87898088-6dcd8b
Re: [singularity] The Extropian Creed by Ben
Hi Natasha After discussions with you and others in 2005, I created a revised version of the essay, which may not address all your complaints, but hopefully addressed some of them. http://www.goertzel.org/Chapter12_aug16_05.pdf However I would be quite interested in further critiques of the 2005 version, because the book in which is was published is going to be reissued in 2008 and my coauthor and I are planning to rework the chapter anyway. thanks Ben On Jan 20, 2008 1:51 PM, Natasha Vita-More [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 06:06 AM 1/20/2008, Mike Tintner wrote: Sorry if you've all read this: http://www.goertzel.org/benzine/extropians.htm But I found it a v. well written sympathetic critique of extropianism highly recommend it. What do people think of its call for a humanist transhumanism? I found Ben's essay to contain a certain bias which detracts from its substance. If Ben would like to debate key assumptions his essay claims, I available. Otherwise, if anyone is interested in key points which I belive are narrowly-focused and/or misleading, I'll post them. Natasha Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK Transhumanist Arts Culture Thinking About the Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?; -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] We are on the edge of change comparable to the rise of human life on Earth. -- Vernor Vinge - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=4007604id_secret=87922044-bb741d
Re: [singularity] The Extropian Creed by Ben
On Jan 20, 2008 1:54 PM, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Natasha After discussions with you and others in 2005, I created a revised version of the essay, which may not address all your complaints, but hopefully addressed some of them. http://www.goertzel.org/Chapter12_aug16_05.pdf However I would be quite interested in further critiques of the 2005 version, because the book in which is was published is going to be reissued in 2008 and my coauthor and I are planning to rework the chapter anyway. thanks Ben I would add that my understanding of the transhumanist/futurist community in general, and extropianism in particular, has deepened since 2005 due to a greater frequency and intensity of social interaction with relevant individuals; so there are probably statements in even the 2005 version that I wouldn't fully agree with now ... ... though, the spirit of the article of course still represents my perspective... ben - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=4007604id_secret=87922432-9d71fc
Re: [singularity] The Extropian Creed by Ben
At 06:06 AM 1/20/2008, Mike Tintner wrote: Sorry if you've all read this: http://www.goertzel.org/benzine/extropians.htm But I found it a v. well written sympathetic critique of extropianism highly recommend it. What do people think of its call for a humanist transhumanism? I found Ben's essay to contain a certain bias which detracts from its substance. If Ben would like to debate key assumptions his essay claims, I available. Otherwise, if anyone is interested in key points which I belive are narrowly-focused and/or misleading, I'll post them. Natasha http://www.natasha.cc/Natashahttp://www.natasha.cc/ Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK http://www.transhumanist.biz/Transhumanist Arts Culture http://extropy.org/Thinking About the http://extropy.org/Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=4007604id_secret=87921547-4eba3e
Re: [singularity] The Extropian Creed by Ben
At 12:56 PM 1/20/2008, you wrote: On Jan 20, 2008 1:54 PM, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Natasha After discussions with you and others in 2005, I created a revised version of the essay, which may not address all your complaints, but hopefully addressed some of them. http://www.goertzel.org/Chapter12_aug16_05.pdf However I would be quite interested in further critiques of the 2005 version, because the book in which is was published is going to be reissued in 2008 and my coauthor and I are planning to rework the chapter anyway. Excellent. Thank you. I will read this version tomorrow morning and reply with any points that I would like to go over with you. Natasha I would add that my understanding of the transhumanist/futurist community in general, and extropianism in particular, has deepened since 2005 due to a greater frequency and intensity of social interaction with relevant individuals; so there are probably statements in even the 2005 version that I wouldn't fully agree with now ... ... though, the spirit of the article of course still represents my perspective... Understood. ben - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?; -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.7/1232 - Release Date: 1/18/2008 7:32 PM http://www.natasha.cc/Natashahttp://www.natasha.cc/ Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK http://www.transhumanist.biz/Transhumanist Arts Culture http://extropy.org/Thinking About the http://extropy.org/Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=4007604id_secret=87938809-8a1c15
Re: [singularity] The Extropian Creed by Ben
Oh you tease. All right then... May I herewith extend a formal invitation to you to reply to my/subsequent posts, and give us the benefit of your opinions and extensive experience in these matters. Hoping you will reply soon, RSVP Natasha: , Mike Tintner wrote: Sorry if you've all read this: http://www.goertzel.org/benzine/extropians.htm But I found it a v. well written sympathetic critique of extropianism highly recommend it. What do people think of its call for a humanist transhumanism? I found Ben's essay to contain a certain bias which detracts from its substance. If Ben would like to debate key assumptions his essay claims, I available. Otherwise, if anyone is interested in key points which I belive are narrowly-focused and/or misleading, I'll post them. Natasha - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=4007604id_secret=87943786-17474c
Re: [singularity] The Extropian Creed by Ben
At 12:54 PM 1/20/2008, Ben wrote: I created a revised version of the essay, which may not address all your complaints, but hopefully addressed some of them. http://www.goertzel.org/Chapter12_aug16_05.pdf However I would be quite interested in further critiques of the 2005 version, because the book in which is was published is going to be reissued in 2008 and my coauthor and I are planning to rework the chapter anyway. I read the 2005 (above link) essay (Chapter 12) this evening. It is a fluid, well-written piece. Thank you Ben for allowing me to comment. I would like to first give my view as a meta observation and then focus on a few particulars. The essay summarizes extropians by focusing on one person, Sasha, as if he is a prototype for extropianism. Sasha, however brilliant and influential in many ways, was not a prototype for extropians or the philosophy of Extropy. Even less so is Hans Moravec, on whom the article also focuses. In fact, because of the principles of Extropy, no one person ought to be singled out as a prototype, as it would be incongruous. Second, the essay critiques extropians from a political perspective rather than from critiquing it as a philosophical and social movement. Since Extropy is a philosophy philosophical and social movement, it must be first and foremost recognized, observed and criticized as a philosophy philosophical and social movement of transhumanism. Attempts to box it into a particular political party's or ideology will no doubt miss the core beliefs and finer points which politics, by its very nature, misses. A final note on the meta observation is that you missed any and all of my own writings on transhumanism which evidences concepts concerning a more humane transhumanism and ideas about compassion, human understanding, and social issues. I wrote about the importance of compassion in transhumanism from 1982 forward, and especially in the 1990s after I joined Extropy Institute. I am not asking you to give me any credit for this; I am asking that you not claim that it was missing from the philosophy of Extropy because it was indeed there. Not only did I write about it, Greg Burch [for instance, in his extrosattva posts] and many others did as well. At the Extro Conferences, especially Extro5, it was a main issue of several of the talks. A few of the particulars that caught my eye are: This group of computer geeks and general high-tech freaks ... This interpretation is journalistic and lacking in credibility. First, the founders of the institute are a philosopher and lawyer. The Board of Directors were authors, professors, business executives, etc. Along the way they want to get rid of governments, moral strictures, and eventually humanity itself,... This phrase lacks merit. I think a problem with this style of writing is that it wants to use alarming statements instead of simply telling the truth. The truth is usually far more exotic than exaggeration. What is true is that governments which are tyrannical and troublesome and of concern to extropians, who did not blink at saying so. Nevertheless, truer is the fact that many extropians, including myself, are thinking about the far future --and in the far future, governments will be outdated structures. In the far, far future humanity will have evolved into posthumanity. This does not mean that extropians what to get rid of humanity at all. You must remember that extropy is the core, original philosophy of transhumanism. As such, humanity is in a stage of transition. Transition means in the process of becoming something other. It does not mean getting rid of humanity. Using the term Social-Darwinism is inaccurate because it poisons the well of your readership by implying that it is a desire for those who are more fit than others to dominate. This term makes a socio-economic/political inference, rather than explaining why extropians want to self-improve. One of the most important characteristics of extropians is the desire to see ALL humanity improve, NOT a select few who can afford it. ... one might call it libertarian transhumanism. Again, the overemphasis on pigeon-holing Extropy as a political worldview is a misnomer and missing the larger scope of the philosophy which has more to do with human potential and individual/social change than a political world view. ...For instance, visionary robotics Hans Moravec, a hero ... This paragraph presents a false dichotomy because it equates comments about the far future to the near or present. For example, you might ask me, Natasha, what is your dream for the future? And I might say, I'd like to see university students performing research in space habitats on the Moon. And then you write, Natasha is anti-academia to a remarkable, ultra-radical extreme. She wants to do away with all universities on Earth and only have
