Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
Del wrote:, [snip] OK, since you want names, and dates: [snip] thread by suggesting a switch to Ubuntu). 3/4/2006. Thanks Del, just a quick e-mail in support of the sentiment of your comments. I actually had considered adding a tag to my original posting asking that the Debian evangelists not bother to post a reply saying switch. So to those of you that say this isn't happening, sorry but it is. However in defense of Martin I will say that his postings are generally well researched and very helpful. I would also add support to your comments in regards to those that like to post a quick but incomplete answer with some vague pointer to some arbitrary documentation. This is just a subtle way of saying RTFM (and let's not start that debate again). To those of you who tend to do this please stop. There are lots of people on this list with vast experience, but who tend to post a quick glib reply, possible because they have seen the problem over and over and have forgotten how confronting the Linux environment can be. The result of this glib post behavior is that those of us with perhaps a little less experience but perhaps a bit more patience / empathy for the posters situation don't then bother to post a more complete answer (not wishing to expose our own short comings in the linux knowledge pissing contest that lists tend to degenerate into). Please, slug you've been better than this and I'm sure can be better again in the future. Yours in optimism Pete. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
On Mon, Apr 10, 2006 at 08:49:28AM +1000, Peter Rundle wrote: Del wrote:, [snip] OK, since you want names, and dates: [snip] thread by suggesting a switch to Ubuntu). 3/4/2006. Thanks Del, just a quick e-mail in support of the sentiment of your comments. I .. ] Another data point, in contrast: I am a current fedora/rhes user, long-time redhat user (since redhat5 or so) who started with sls then debian WAY back. I've dabbled with ubuntu, suse, mandrake. I'm not at all bothered by the occasional debian / ubuntu fan-ism in slug. It's pretty much an inevitable part of the territory, an as long as it's not overbearing, (it hasn't been as far as I'm concerned) it doesn't bother me. People should be a little less thin-skinned. It's not important. Matt -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
On Monday 10 April 2006 10:00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Apr 10, 2006 at 08:49:28AM +1000, Peter Rundle wrote: Del wrote:, [snip] OK, since you want names, and dates: [snip] thread by suggesting a switch to Ubuntu). 3/4/2006. Thanks Del, just a quick e-mail in support of the sentiment of your comments. I .. ] Another data point, in contrast: I am a current fedora/rhes user, long-time redhat user (since redhat5 or so) who started with sls then debian WAY back. I've dabbled with ubuntu, suse, mandrake. I'm not at all bothered by the occasional debian / ubuntu fan-ism in slug. It's pretty much an inevitable part of the territory, an as long as it's not overbearing, (it hasn't been as far as I'm concerned) it doesn't bother me. People should be a little less thin-skinned. It's not important. Seconded James -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
People should be a little less thin-skinned. It's not important. Seconded Alternatively people could learn to read and understand the discussion before firing in an off target response. The discussion wasn't about being hurt, it was about: 1. Distribution evangelism isn't helpful to the original poster 2. partial or incomplete responses fired in early can prevent others who might have been prepared to give a useful answer, not to. Subsequently the original poster doesn't get the help they were searching for so they go elsewhere. Not because they were hurt by your response but because they didn't get satisfaction, the list failed to service their need. I.E myself and others believe that is the answer to the original question that prompted this thread why is slug membership showing a decline. So now you'll probably respond with some glib well if your not prepared to put up with the grit that you get when posting to a mailing list you probably should un-subscribe. Bingo! People are not participating because, they consider their time to be more valuable than putting up with the grit. It's not about being thick or thin skinned. But you'll no doubt reply, your the one asking for help, you can hardly complain about the quality of the answers you get for free. Wrong! If your objective is to build a community that discusses issues about Linux and provides a forum to resolve problems that people are having with Linux and therefore advance the adoption/use within the community then you need both questioners and answerers. And of course roles reverse all the time. Sometimes I have questions and sometime I can provided answers (well most times questions actually but you get the point). No joy/satisfaction in being able to help someone by providing answers if nobody is asking any questions because they are tired of wading through the evangelism to find the answer. It's just a theory, and my total study group comprises 1, but I'm am tired of the evangelism and glib quick fired responses and have considered un-subscribing. Perhaps, just perhaps others have already felt this way and already done so. If this is the process of natural self-selection, that only thick skinned people can be sluggers, then so be it. If so called thin-skinned people like myself can't be sluggers I guess I'll go elsewhere. (though I repeat I'm not hurt, I'm just bored with the less than helpful answers department) Mailing lists it appears go through a life cycle, when young and fresh the information is very useful and people are very helpful. Others discover this and the group grows. Then the list matures, usually when the original participants move on in their life, the quality of answers decline and the jesters appear. The jesters drive other participants away with the opportunist responses and the list degrades further.What part of the life cycle is Slug at? Are you contributing to the decline of slug? Or by acknowledging there are many different thickness people, can Slug defy the trend of lists to decline? P. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
On Mon, Apr 10, 2006 at 02:28:39PM +1000, Peter Rundle wrote: Alternatively people could learn to read and understand the discussion before firing in an off target response. The discussion wasn't about being hurt, it was about: 1. Distribution evangelism isn't helpful to the original poster 2. partial or incomplete responses fired in early can prevent others who might have been prepared to give a useful answer, not to. I agree with those two points[1], I'm just saying that I haven't seen many instances of those two points. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
SLUG Membership [Was: Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads]
On Mon, 2006-04-10 at 14:28 +1000, Peter Rundle wrote: I.E myself and others believe that is the answer to the original question that prompted this thread why is slug membership showing a decline. Thanks for bring us back to this Peter. Grant's original email about declining membership was unclear about whether he meant general membership (ie: mailing list community), financial members or both. A little clarification here would be helpful in understanding the what/if/where's of the decline. -- I promise to maintain the current level of real expenditure on Austudy. -- John Howard Austudy was cut by $527 million in his first term. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
On Mon, 2006-04-10 at 14:28 +1000, Peter Rundle wrote: Alternatively people could learn to read and understand the discussion before firing in an off target response. The discussion wasn't about being hurt, it was about: 1. Distribution evangelism isn't helpful to the original poster Agreed, whether it is debian nuts, fedora afficiandos or gentoo devotees it doesn't help anyone. 2. partial or incomplete responses fired in early can prevent others who might have been prepared to give a useful answer, not to. I have routinely seen partial or incomplete answers attract a barrage of corrections and the correct way of doing things. Please note this barrage has not included the you should switch to %DISTRO. If someone sees an incorrect answer and lets it go, there is a fair chance that that person would not have posted at all. So now you'll probably respond with some glib well if your not prepared to put up with the grit that you get when posting to a mailing list you probably should un-subscribe. Bingo! People are not participating because, they consider their time to be more valuable than putting up with the grit. It's not about being thick or thin skinned. Sorry but here's a glib response about human communications and the cruft and grit inherent to any form of. Mailing lists it appears go through a life cycle, when young and fresh the information is very useful and people are very helpful. Others discover this and the group grows. Then the list matures, usually when the original participants move on in their life, the quality of answers decline and the jesters appear. The jesters drive other participants away with the opportunist responses and the list degrades further.What part of the life cycle is Slug at? Are you contributing to the decline of slug? Or by acknowledging there are many different thickness people, can Slug defy the trend of lists to decline? God I hope not. However lists are not the only form of communication available to SLUG members. There is also the irc channel, in which many sluggers hang out and mock each others distros... umm assist in distro agnostic ways. I also believe there are forums on the cards for the new web site. I guess I would like to end this missive not by calling on people to be thick skinned but instead to install some filters. I don't filter SLUG main using any sort of rules, instead I have a quick gander and if it interests me I'll track it. If not I ignore it and move on. If I ask a question and someone RTFM's me (which no one has to date) or YUTWDUMI's (Your Using The Wrong Distro Use Mine Instead) me (again which no one has) I either ignore them or launch into long winded threads with them about the concepts behind what they have said to me. -- James Purser Producer/Presenter - Linux Australia Update http://k-sit.com - My Blog http://localfoss.org - LA Update Podcast, LUG Roundup and more Skype: purserj1977 SIP: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads - Genuine question.
On Wed, 2006-04-05 at 21:04 +1000, CaT wrote: gnome-apt - graphical package manager Never used it though. I prefer the cli and I prefer to initiate the update manually (safest that way). synaptic - it is the gui apt interface. I do use it to clean up my system occasionally, it is simpler to use the command line 'apt-get install newpackage'. If you are a newbie this is very easy to use. -- Ken Foskey FOSS developer -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
Only because I was asked. :) Dean Hamstead wrote: this is flame bait : i cant think of anything that is specific to redhat and its friends. perhaps there are some strange SAN drivers which only work on redhat. if that is the case, you need to ask yourself what sort of life is this hardware likely to have? if i update the kernel will it make the hardware useless? binary drivers and software suffer from bit-rot horribly in linux. No, it's not flame bait, it's just ill-informed (so I stand by my comments earlier on that line). Nearly all SAN systems have fibre-SCSI attachment -- this goes for all of the major SAN vendors -- EMC, Hitachi, Fujitsu, etc. To make the SAN switch work in failover mode, you need specific hardware -- usually EMC/Lightpulse style or QLogic chipset (there are third party OEM boards using these chipsets) dual-fibre SCSI cards. The business of automatic-failover and detection of reconnects on these systems is still pretty much a black art, and all of the drivers to do it are closed source. The majority of them are only available for Red Hat in the Linux universe, while the rest are available for either Red Hat or SuSE. No other distro choices, sorry. There are the beginnings of an open-source driver in the kernel (provided by Red Hat in fact) but it just doesn't have the features of the closed-source drivers. e.g. multipath works but failover does not. So the closed source drivers are available (at a cost) for every version of RHEL and most recent versions of SuSE, and they are tied to a specific kernel version and they don't suffer from bit-rot because there are large companies being paid significant amounts of money to keep them updated. I doubt that every major SAN hardware vendor is going to go out of business because their drivers aren't available on Debian, or aren't available to people who roll their own kernels. No, you get RHEL, you install that, the drivers are available for that version of RHEL (RHEL never updates its kernel, only backports patches, so the drivers remain good over time), and you use that. No Debian, no gentoo, no Ubuntu, and no Fedora Core. And you aren't going to get major data centers pulling out their SAN storage units and stringing together heaps of USB drives or something just so they can run without the binary drivers. There are hundreds of millions of dollars invested in this stuff, it's good, it's stable, and it works. You want to connect 1000 servers up to 500TB of disk storage, have it work reliably, and have cluster file systems so you can have large oracle / OCFS / GFS clusters, with SCSI path redundancy and load balancing? This is the way it's done, end of story. -- Del -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
re-inventing the wheel. further, one asks another flame-bait question - are there actually really savy redhat users? on this list? Yes. Me. (I think I'm the last one who hasn't been scared off -- I certainly know other experienced Red Hat users and systems admins who won't have anything to do with SLUG). the solution may simply to be, people asking distribution specific question should be directed to a distribution specific list? i for one take this stance and spend a lot of time on the debian lists as debian-ppc or debian-amd64 (or freebsd) questions arent likely to get answered here. There's a lot of merit in that. I'd like to see us all remain under the banner of one SLUG. However there are distribution flavours, and there are all levels of user experience as well. Perhaps we need some distro-flavoured mailing lists, and perhaps some kind of linux-newcomers list where some of us can hang out and answer the most basic of questions in a non-threatening manner (something that may have to be done on a volunteer or rotation basis). -- Del -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
This one time, at band camp, Dean Hamstead wrote: we debian users can be quite elitist. Dean Hamstead does not represent myself nor the Debian project. of the qa's seem to be very low level. thus, it may be that many of the more advanced users see recommending debian as a way of skipping over re-inventing the wheel. further, one asks another flame-bait question - are there actually really savy redhat users? on this list? Yes, and yes. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
This one time, at band camp, Del wrote: re-inventing the wheel. further, one asks another flame-bait question - are there actually really savy redhat users? on this list? Yes. Me. (I think I'm the last one who hasn't been scared off -- I certainly know other experienced Red Hat users and systems admins who won't have anything to do with SLUG). You're not the last RH user nor sysadmin on the list :) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 06:25:58 +1000, Jamie Wilkinson wrote: This one time, at band camp, Del wrote: re-inventing the wheel. further, one asks another flame-bait question - are there actually really savy redhat users? on this list? Yes. Me. (I think I'm the last one who hasn't been scared off -- I certainly know other experienced Red Hat users and systems admins who won't have anything to do with SLUG). You're not the last RH user nor sysadmin on the list :) Neither are you :-) -- So you make it so that it takes serious and unmistakable action to get around the access restrictions, so that when the little darlings do whatever they have to do to get root you can nail their arses to the wall. Preferably with rail spikes. -- Matt McLeod -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
You're not the last RH user nor sysadmin on the list :) Glad to hear it. :) -- Del -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
In keeping with the current discussion, a thought occurs. As I understand it, there is a SLUG Debian Special Interest Group, for those who either use or develop for Debian. Could not something similar be setup for FC/RH users? -- James Purser Producer/Presenter - Linux Australia Update http://k-sit.com - My Blog http://localfoss.org - LA Update Podcast, LUG Roundup and more Skype: purserj1977 SIP: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
quote who=James Purser In keeping with the current discussion, a thought occurs. As I understand it, there is a SLUG Debian Special Interest Group, for those who either use or develop for Debian. Could not something similar be setup for FC/RH users? Absolutely - but no one's done the work (cf. Matt's post). :-) - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spainhttp://2006.guadec.org/ And, most importantly, we now have modules named 'fontilus' and 'themus' -- the two founders of GROME. - Jonathon Blandford -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
James Purser wrote: In keeping with the current discussion, a thought occurs. As I understand it, there is a SLUG Debian Special Interest Group, for those who either use or develop for Debian. Could not something similar be setup for FC/RH users? I'm in. Where do we start? Mailing list? Pub meet? -- Del -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
quote who=Del I'm in. Where do we start? Mailing list? Pub meet? Figure out a venue (JSBH isn't so hospitable anymore), and send an announce to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can probably get venue tips from the other SIG organisers, who have been looking for places. - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spainhttp://2006.guadec.org/ What inspired you to become a bus driver? Linus Torvalds. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
Dean Hamstead wrote: Im only replying to this email as i was mentioned in it. May i start of by saying that i do agree with dels comments that some people really aren't interested in assisting with non-debian concerns. I'm a Debian and Ubuntu user. Its been many years since I last used an RPM based distro. This means that I'm really not qualified to respond to many questions where distro specific knowledge is required. Erik -- +---+ Erik de Castro Lopo +---+ Every time an American goes to a gas station, he is sending money to America's enemies. -- http://www.meforum.org/article/653 -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads (was: presidents report)
On Wed, 2006-04-05 at 15:58 +1000, Del wrote: * Craige McWhirter (responding to a post about RHCE exams by saying or even better, do the LPI[1] exams. For the sake of issue separation, it's a bit of stretch to bring in my preference for vendor neutral qualifications as anti-RedHat sentiment. The LPI is vendor neutral and as such, I consider the LPI a better choice. Vendor neutral. If your email was about less than helpful responses, I'd probably nod and say yeah, got me but as an example of Debian-based or anti-RedHat bigotry on the list my recommending a vendor neutral qualification is nothing of the sort. It's just being used as filler in an otherwise well thought out and valid case. -- Cheers, Craige. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads - Genuine question.
Does a Debian distro have auto updates such as Red Hat? I use CentOS where I can update the packages very easily. I tried Debian once but the install was too hard at the time. However I'm willing to give it another go. Is there a way to easily patch it up to date? I'm talking about point and click type of stuff. What about Ubuntu? Ben -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads - Genuine question.
quote who=Ben Donohue Does a Debian distro have auto updates such as Red Hat? I use CentOS where I can update the packages very easily. I tried Debian once but the install was too hard at the time. However I'm willing to give it another go. Is there a way to easily patch it up to date? I'm talking about point and click type of stuff. What about Ubuntu? Ubuntu has a little icon in the panel that appears when you need to update. Click on it, and you get a cute update GUI. There is also a graphical tool in progress for doing complete upgrades which will be released in time for the 6.06 release in June (it will be released into the 5.10 repositories, so you can upgrade to 6.06). Of course, there's always apt-get and aptitude on the command line for your servers. Their historical excellence is what makes it all so easy at the GUI level. :-) (Look out for SMART, which will be very likely be used by default in Ubuntu 6.10.) - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spainhttp://2006.guadec.org/ The GPL is good. Use it. Don't be silly. - Michael Meeks -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads - Genuine question.
On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 08:54:56PM +1000, Ben Donohue wrote: Does a Debian distro have auto updates such as Red Hat? You can use cron-apt if I understand you. However I'm willing to give it another go. Is there a way to easily patch it up to date? I'm talking about point and click type of stuff. Maybe. gnome-apt - graphical package manager Never used it though. I prefer the cli and I prefer to initiate the update manually (safest that way). -- To the extent that we overreact, we proffer the terrorists the greatest tribute. - High Court Judge Michael Kirby -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
there was a redhat users group that got in touch and were encouraged to become a sig if they wanted last year Ken James Purser wrote: In keeping with the current discussion, a thought occurs. As I understand it, there is a SLUG Debian Special Interest Group, for those who either use or develop for Debian. Could not something similar be setup for FC/RH users? -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
[Fwd: Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads]
My experience when I first attended SLUG after a Redhat 7.2 install with problems with my cd burner was to be told by someone that we are mostly Debian users here. I went away and didnt come back for a couple of years, tried various distros RHEL3, Mandrake, Xandros, then changed hardware and picked up one of Jeffs ubuntu cds next time I visited slug and it worked on the changed hardware, so I ended up in the Debian camp. I still consider myself a begginer and am doing Geoffrey Robinsons TAFE introductory LINUX course. SLUG is not an easy community to join. Sure we are tolerant of peoples appearance, but intellectually there are big steps. How to help people in is harder, but to grow there needs to be better outreach. Ken Del wrote: James Purser wrote: While there is a large population of Debian/Ubuntu users it hasn't to my mind precluded fans of other distros availing themselves of either the mailing lists or irc channels when seeking help/assistance. In fact one of the most recent(and active) threads is seeking help in installing VMWare on Fedora Core 5. On the irc channel there are gentoo users, debian users, fedora users and more. Yes, but on the majority of the threads that commence with I would like help doing X on Y (non-debian) distribution, the comments that follow mostly include things like you should switch to Debian. That's not a particularly helpful comment when you have already decided to / must use distribution Y. Personally, I refrain from telling Debian users that they should switch to Red Hat (except where absolutely required, e.g. to get multi-path fibre SCSI working through a SAN backend, but that's not a common situation outside of the largest data centers), so I don't see why the Debian users continually feel the need to tell users of other distros that they have to switch to Debian, without analysing the problem as presented. My experience pretty much parallels that of Philip: If you're not a Debian user then there are certain elements in SLUG that aren't really interested in talking to you, except to convert you to Debian. If that attitude were to change then I'd probably participate somewhat more in SLUG, but I haven't seen it change for a number of years now despite the best efforts of many of the people on the SLUG committee. It's not a problem with SLUG specifically -- I've noted that attitude from many Debian users outside of the SLUG community. In fact I think that it's time that a general vote was taken that Debian evangelists should just keep their evangelising outside of Fedora / Red Hat specific threads, and we'd all get along much better. As well there's these perceptions of too much influence by few individuals that alienates many would be members, newbies and professionals alike. Which individuals? There is - as with any group - a core group of the most active community members, as can be seen on the mailing list/irc channel. However the environment I have seen and participated in has been one of come in and join the fun, just leave your flames at the door. There are a couple of people who seem more inclined to argue than others, however you get that with any group and it is a good indication of a communities viability in how they deal with such people. OK, since you want names, and dates: * Martin Visser (responding to a how-to-get-VMware-working on FC5 thread by suggesting a switch to Ubuntu). 3/4/2006. That's probably stretching things a little, Martin's email was polite and informative, but the original questioner stated that they needed to do it on FC5, so the post was at least off-topic -- at least change the subject line please guys. * Craig Sanders (responding to a post about time zone files on FC4 with the comment reformat and install debian.). 26/3/2006. Come on guys, is that the best you can do? You suggest a solution to a 1 hour timezone file problem that involves reformatting and reinstalling? * Craige McWhirter (responding to a post about RHCE exams by saying or even better, do the LPI[1] exams. So what if the original poster's employer is a Red Hat shop and requires him/her to have an RHCE certification as part of his job skills / training? You're suggesting that he throw his job in to do a different, non-Red Hat certification? Now this is unusual for Craige, he's normally a very helpful, informative, and polite poster, but think before you press that send button please. (Yes, there are several large employers in Sydney that have a lot of RH boxes, and require their employees to have or obtain RHCEs. Some of them are quite good places to work, so I hear.) * Dean Hamstead (responding to a post about Red Hat consultants: a really savy consultant would recommend a move to debian). 25/1/2006 Sorry, this is just flame bait and I don't see any reason not to target it as deliberate flame bait. Why? What if the system required drivers or features that are only available in Red
DEC Storage Works Re: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads
Del wrote:
e.g. to get multi-path fibre SCSI working through a SAN backend,
Slightly related, well it is multi-channel {:-), but does anyone have
any experience with using a DEC Storage works array under dual linux
hosts?[1]
1) can it be done?
2) which distros?[2]
3) other stuff?
TIA
[1] for those who don't know, a DEC Storage Works array is a SE scsi
array/bus with dual scsi access ports. It isn't a SAN device, so your
hosts have to work co-operatively (if you want to keep the date in any
useful state).
[2] Err, yerr, I've already got Debian, so you don't have to post that
answer {:-)
--
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RE: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads (was: presidents report)
I guess I feel obligated to respond. I can only assume that my naming puts me in the basket as one of the rude / inconsiderate / ill-informed posters. I am almost certain I have never been rude on this list (please let me know otherwise), and as I usually write a draft and think at least a little about the recipients before sending posts, then I am probably not inconsiderate. I could conceivable be ill-informed though, so I am willing to accept that tag - at the tender age of 42 I still believe there is much to learn. As far as the specific post to which I responded, my aim was purely to counter Peter's obvious frustration with Linux in general - very specifically his comment why why why can't Linux ever just work? . I merely hoped to demonstrate that it can and it does, at least from my experience with Ubuntu. Don't get me wrong, Ubuntu doesn't always work - I have 3 or 4 open bug reports that I have filed for the current testing release. I also have to compile a new kernel module for my wireless card everytime I upgrade the kernel. Easy to be done (for me at least) - but it is against what I think Linux should be. As far as your feeling that Red Hat specific answers are unwanted, I think that is a shame that you feel that. A mailing list isn't IRC, so even posting a few days after the original question is often still useful if pertinent. (There used to be a I'll post to the list a summary etiquette which my have waned of late). I have installed and used all of the Fedora releases, as well as Redhat back to version 3.0. I have also done most of the SuSEs since about 9.1. I even haved mucked with Puppy Linux of late. So I hardly believe that I live in a Ubuntu monastery. I for one need to know how SuSE and Redhat works. At this stage any Linux work that I do for customers is going to be around the Redhat or SuSE product space (as well as those things with Linux embedded like VMware ESX). I think there is great opportunity for cross-distro understanding. One project that I want to kick-off in fact is a sort of quick reference matrix that describes how a particular administrative function can be done across the major platforms. For instance, all of the distro's use /etc/init.d to contain the control scripts for system services. But the additional feature that Redhat has is the service command which abstracts these when you which manually control the scripts. Similar chkconfig exists in Redhat to define which runlevel a service starts in, yet in Ubuntu you need to use update-rc.d. So sure, you will see some distro religiousity here, but I really don't agree that we are all that bad. Regards, Martin Martin Visser Technology Consultant Consulting Integration Technology Solutions Group - HP Services 410 Concord Road Rhodes NSW 2138 Australia Mobile: +61-411-254-513 Fax: +61-2-9022-1800 E-mail: martin.visserAThp.com This email (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify HP immediately by return email and then delete the email, destroy any printed copy and do not disclose or use the information in it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Del Sent: Wednesday, 5 April 2006 3:59 PM To: slug@slug.org.au Subject: [SLUG] debian vs FC threads (was: presidents report) James Purser wrote: While there is a large population of Debian/Ubuntu users it hasn't to my mind precluded fans of other distros availing themselves of either the mailing lists or irc channels when seeking help/assistance. In fact one of the most recent(and active) threads is seeking help in installing VMWare on Fedora Core 5. On the irc channel there are gentoo users, debian users, fedora users and more. Yes, but on the majority of the threads that commence with I would like help doing X on Y (non-debian) distribution, the comments that follow mostly include things like you should switch to Debian. That's not a particularly helpful comment when you have already decided to / must use distribution Y. Personally, I refrain from telling Debian users that they should switch to Red Hat (except where absolutely required, e.g. to get multi-path fibre SCSI working through a SAN backend, but that's not a common situation outside of the largest data centers), so I don't see why the Debian users continually feel the need to tell users of other distros that they have to switch to Debian, without analysing the problem as presented. My experience pretty much parallels that of Philip: If you're not a Debian user then there are certain elements in SLUG that aren't really interested in talking to you, except to convert you to Debian. If that attitude were to change then I'd probably participate somewhat more in SLUG, but I haven't seen it change for a number of years now despite the best
[SLUG] debian vs FC threads (was: presidents report)
James Purser wrote: While there is a large population of Debian/Ubuntu users it hasn't to my mind precluded fans of other distros availing themselves of either the mailing lists or irc channels when seeking help/assistance. In fact one of the most recent(and active) threads is seeking help in installing VMWare on Fedora Core 5. On the irc channel there are gentoo users, debian users, fedora users and more. Yes, but on the majority of the threads that commence with I would like help doing X on Y (non-debian) distribution, the comments that follow mostly include things like you should switch to Debian. That's not a particularly helpful comment when you have already decided to / must use distribution Y. Personally, I refrain from telling Debian users that they should switch to Red Hat (except where absolutely required, e.g. to get multi-path fibre SCSI working through a SAN backend, but that's not a common situation outside of the largest data centers), so I don't see why the Debian users continually feel the need to tell users of other distros that they have to switch to Debian, without analysing the problem as presented. My experience pretty much parallels that of Philip: If you're not a Debian user then there are certain elements in SLUG that aren't really interested in talking to you, except to convert you to Debian. If that attitude were to change then I'd probably participate somewhat more in SLUG, but I haven't seen it change for a number of years now despite the best efforts of many of the people on the SLUG committee. It's not a problem with SLUG specifically -- I've noted that attitude from many Debian users outside of the SLUG community. In fact I think that it's time that a general vote was taken that Debian evangelists should just keep their evangelising outside of Fedora / Red Hat specific threads, and we'd all get along much better. As well there's these perceptions of too much influence by few individuals that alienates many would be members, newbies and professionals alike. Which individuals? There is - as with any group - a core group of the most active community members, as can be seen on the mailing list/irc channel. However the environment I have seen and participated in has been one of come in and join the fun, just leave your flames at the door. There are a couple of people who seem more inclined to argue than others, however you get that with any group and it is a good indication of a communities viability in how they deal with such people. OK, since you want names, and dates: * Martin Visser (responding to a how-to-get-VMware-working on FC5 thread by suggesting a switch to Ubuntu). 3/4/2006. That's probably stretching things a little, Martin's email was polite and informative, but the original questioner stated that they needed to do it on FC5, so the post was at least off-topic -- at least change the subject line please guys. * Craig Sanders (responding to a post about time zone files on FC4 with the comment reformat and install debian.). 26/3/2006. Come on guys, is that the best you can do? You suggest a solution to a 1 hour timezone file problem that involves reformatting and reinstalling? * Craige McWhirter (responding to a post about RHCE exams by saying or even better, do the LPI[1] exams. So what if the original poster's employer is a Red Hat shop and requires him/her to have an RHCE certification as part of his job skills / training? You're suggesting that he throw his job in to do a different, non-Red Hat certification? Now this is unusual for Craige, he's normally a very helpful, informative, and polite poster, but think before you press that send button please. (Yes, there are several large employers in Sydney that have a lot of RH boxes, and require their employees to have or obtain RHCEs. Some of them are quite good places to work, so I hear.) * Dean Hamstead (responding to a post about Red Hat consultants: a really savy consultant would recommend a move to debian). 25/1/2006 Sorry, this is just flame bait and I don't see any reason not to target it as deliberate flame bait. Why? What if the system required drivers or features that are only available in Red Hat? Well, that's 4 in the last 2 months. Do I need to go back through the archives any further? Let's not bring up the consistent RH/Debian flame wars of the past please. Remember that it only takes a few rude / inconsiderate / ill-informed posters on any particular subject to spoil the reputation of an otherwise helpful and informative group. I'm not suggesting any form of list censorship here -- merely backing up what the original posters have said. The people mentioned above, not to mention those few others that have posted on the same lines may like to consider that it's actually the reputation of the Debian community that they are harming here, as well as the reputation of SLUG. Now I don't think that anyone's suggesting that
