RE: [RCSE] RES what's in a name?
How old is the Spirit Kit -Original Message-From: John Roe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 12:18 PMTo: rcseSubject: [RCSE] RES what's in a name? The Harbor Soaring Society like many clubs has a group of pilots who like to fly "low tech" planes, i.e. Rudder Elevator Spoiler only. Thisquestion was debated; "As a competition class, what other restrictions should apply?" The majoritywere happywith the AMA definition of RES, which allows any typeof construction materials/methods and allows skegs. The other options discussed were: 1.Nostalgia rules, meaning designs kitted during or before 1980. 2. TPG rules, meaning AMA rules but no skegs 3."Local rules", in this case meaning RES controls, no skegs, and wood built up film covered wings,preferably constructed by the builder. The argument for AMA rules was that it is the most popular, most common and recognized. That it allows beginners or kids to buy a foamy or a complete plane and use it without trying to build a built-up model. And that theuse of landing skegs makes landings much safer and especially for kids or beginners less likely to damage the plane or injure spectators. The argument for TPG rules was that "Real men can land in a circle without skegs." The argument for nostalgia rules is that it is an established "wood built-up wing class." The argument for "Local Rules" was that to achieve the goal of having only built up wood planes by using Nostalgia rules was too restrictive, as it doesn't allow for some popular designs after 1980. Also some members have their own design/modifications etc. that would not be allowed under nostalgia rules. Any thoughts? JR John RoeLaguna Hills, Ca www.MartialArtsAcademy.org Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail.
Re: [RCSE] Re: D J Aerotech
My 2 cents - The high quality and lower cost (to the consumer) of the DJ wood kits is very important to soaring and the hobby in general. Newbies cannot afford to go from the beginner level kits right to the latest state-of-the-art composite contest ships. Plus, there are a fair number of us sport fliers that need and appreciate the types of planes they will be offering. Besides, some of us still like wood anyway. Ed Jett - Original Message - From: Jack Iafret [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ed Jett [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Don Stackhouse @ DJ Aerotech [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: RCSE [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Re: D J Aerotech It's just not small business guy's, it's all business. Getting out prior to total failure of the product or the product makers is better than average intelligence. Sounds like Ray Hays and DJ will be producing Woodies for some time great. BTW Ray's Woody contest could be the start of something good for the industry and modeling in general. Lots of low cost kits that fill both the fun flyer bill as well as competition if you so desire. Not all contests need to be high cost, any two planes of the same ilk can have a great contest. Jack Iafret [EMAIL PROTECTED] Keeper of the Nostalgia Rules - Original Message - From: Ed Jett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Don Stackhouse @ DJ Aerotech [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: RCSE [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 7:05 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Re: D J Aerotech Thanks for the post Don. I will mourn the passing of your composite kits, but fully understand the situation you face. The problems you face with composite sailplane manufacture are the same as faced by any other manufacturing business and if it doesnt sell well enough, you just cannot afford to produce it. Regards - Ed Jett - Original Message - From: Don Stackhouse @ DJ Aerotech [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Norman H. Donnelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 10:38 PM Subject: [RCSE] Re: D J Aerotech Norman H. Donnelly asks: Just went to thier (DJ Aerotech) page and they no longer sell thier sailplanes!? Anyone know what happened ? First of all, for the record, the recent unpleasantness on this forum was directly responsible for Joe Hahn's unsubscribing from this e-mail list last week, and I'm still debating my own decision on that issue. However, our decision to end production of our composite kits had been made some time before this last batch of flame wars, so that we could give enough advance notice to the employees involved to give them plenty of time to find work elsewhere. Other than as noted below, it was largely a coincidence that the final cutoff just happened to occur at the same time as the recent round of vendor bashing. We did consider keeping the composite competition sailplane business going on an extremely limited basis using just Joe's and my own labor. The poisonous atmosphere on this list of late did have a significant bearing on our ultimate decision not to do that, and to just plain end the making of composite sailplanes altogether. We have a couple of Spectre 120's we are finishing up (Tom, yours will be the last one made), and we will handle replacement parts support for owners of existing composite models on a case-by-case basis (no, we will NOT sell enough spare parts for someone to construct a complete airplane), but we've decided that for Joe and I to keep the production lines open by ourselves even on an extremely limited basis was just not worth the trouble. We still sell sailplanes, just not the composite ones. The Chrysalis HLG and the Chrysalis 2-meter are still available, and I expect we'll be doing some more wooden sailplanes sooner or later. In fact, I just sent the parts files off to our laser vendor today for a new and very different sailplane model. I'll announce it when the time comes, although if things go well and Murphy's Law gives us a break, some of you might get to see it in action at Ft. Wayne on the 16th. As far as the demise of our composite kits, it was a business decision, although the general atmosphere of this forum made the decision a little easier. There are some hard facts of business involved: 1. Running a composites manufacturing shop involves a huge amount of overhead, much of it fixed. If sales are slow, then the cost of labor per hour goes literally out the roof, far exceeding the revenue from the sales of the kits produced. Learning curves for manufacturing employees become a tougher nut to crack as well when production rates are low, and that tends to drive up scrap rates on complex parts. Also, some of the purchased materials have to be bought in very large quantities to get a
RE: [RCSE] Kevlar cutting
On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Michael Imsic wrote: 3M has a low tack blue masking tape which is designed for masking prior to painting. Sounds like it would be perfect. Ah, good advice. I'll see if it's in the local art supply place. -J Michael -Original Message- From: Monkey King [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, 9 January 2002 12:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RCSE] Kevlar cutting On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Rick and Jill wrote: Doesn't this cause a fraying of the edges when you pull off the tape?? A little. I pull away from the body of the fabric, and it seems OKish. I think the next experiment is to do it with drafting tape, which is a little less sticky. -J - Original Message - From: Monkey King [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 8:44 AM Subject: [RCSE] Kevlar cutting I don't know if this is just the common technique for cutting aramid, or if I've come across something good, but I do know that someone was asking about good shears for cutting the stuff a week or so ago. Maybe this will help the rest of us, as it doesn't require destroying your SO's favorite shears: Outline the cut your are going to make in masking tape on both sides. Press the tape down hard so it's stuck firmly - no wrinkles or bulges on either side. Then cut down the tape longways. This way, you can mark your pattern on the cloth with the tape and cut through cleanly. Am I making the newbie error of stating the known? If there's more to this technique than I've discovered, please let me in on the secret! -J RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] Oxnard Ca.
The one site I know of in the Camarillo/Ventura/Oxnard area is The Cross, but I have know idea exactly where it is. Perhaps someone else on RCSE knows? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Guys I will be on a trip to Oxnard California on Feb 3-6. I maybe able to bring a foamie with me. Is there a place that I could possibly meet up with some people or a place to go fly? Ill probably bring my Flying wing. TIA Jeff Downeast Soaring RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- _ Brett Jaffee [EMAIL PROTECTED] R/C Slope and Power Homepage http://home.earthlink.net/~jaffee The Unoffical Extra 300 Home Page http://members.nbci.com/bjaffee/extra300/ OnTheWay Quake 3 Server Utility http://www.planetquake.com/ontheway _ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Airtronics Rx crystals $8
I have the following Airtronics Rx crystals: (1)- ch. 13 (1)- ch. 24 (1)- ch. 30 (1)- ch. 38 (1)- ch. 50 (2)- ch. 52 (1)- ch. 54 (1)- ch. 55 $8 each shipped to your door. Thanks. Edgar The Soaring Junkie __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Airtronics Crystals are $8 each! shipped
That's $8 each shipped to your door. Edgar The Soaring Junkie __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Uplinks for sail
I'm selling my 2 Uplink HLG's Good condition less electronics 180 per plus shipping... RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [RCSE] RES what's in a name?
2. TPG rules, meaning AMA rules but no skegs. Cool, I like that one. Like the good old days! (Old for me anyway). Those TPG guys are on the cutting edge! Tom Copp COMPOSITE SPECIALTIES www.F3X.com ph/fax 949-645 7032 -Original Message- From: John Roe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 9:18 AM To: rcse Subject: [RCSE] RES what's in a name? The Harbor Soaring Society like many clubs has a group of pilots who like to fly low tech planes, i.e. Rudder Elevator Spoiler only. Thisquestion was debated; As a competition class, what other restrictions should apply? The majoritywere happywith the AMA definition of RES, which allows any typeof construction materials/methods and allows skegs. The other options discussed were: 1.Nostalgia rules, meaning designs kitted during or before 1980. 2. TPG rules, meaning AMA rules but no skegs SNIP
RE: [RCSE] RES what's in a name?
HI John, I just went through this drill a few months ago. What I found is there are pilots for each sub category (big surprise) Nostalgia is not necessary all wood construction, its pre 1980. But spoilers are allowed to be added and the structure i.e. carbon spars, spruce spars can replace balsa etc. You cant make a wood wing a foam/glass wing though. Mixing radios are allowed. Plastic and glass fuses are allowed if the kits had them. Local HSS rules are really a problem because one guy has the say as what is OK and what is NOT. Nothing in writing and on the books and that is what I pushed for. The AMA has gone through this and approved RES as Rudder, Elevator and top mounted spoilers that move in unison, no other restrictions apply except for AMA safety rules. The big 3 west coast contests use the AMA RES rules. A few built up only contests are held. They were popular. My vote is for AMA RES. This will allow original designs, Nostalgia, balsa and foam to fly. Some guys are worried about mega buck models winning the class; they should be worried about who is at the sticks. Tom Copp COMPOSITE SPECIALTIES www.F3X.com ph/fax 949-645 7032
[RCSE] elect sailplane FS NIB Swing NICE!
I bought two of these, now I only want one because I realize I'm buying too much stuff and need to cool my jets. Go Here for detailed pics. http://www.evergo.net/~guil/electric_sailplane.htm I havent built mine yet, but it is a great deal, nice airplane. It's called a Swing. I never heard of it before. It's one of those European ARFs. $130 + 10.00 shipping. Fred Guilfoyle __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] RES what's in a name?
Bill and John, A couple of small items to consider in this discussion. First, Nostalgia was never meant to be an event for wood, open framework sailplanes. It allows almost any construction so long as the original was done that way and that includes FRP, foam or whatever. What makes Nostalgia work is that you can not change the topology of the plane especially the airfoil and that is what keeps the event in line with what we would now consider low tech, not the materials. Perhaps a case in point maybe if one took a Dole or one of Dodgeson's designs and used some new computer tools to optimize the airfoils for the planform, it probably could work fairly well in Unlimited today. It is the airfoil that mostly limits performance. Second, the RES event at the NATS had about 65 entrants (?) and I would not consider that a low turnout for a one day event that was shared with Nostalgia that had over 40 or 45 entrants (? did not go back and count). It was still not an AMA event last year so this year should pick up a little. There were not too many hi-tech planes last year at the NATS but look out this year now that the rules are solid. Where does that leave us? My thought only... RES will end up as another Unlimited event with molded, high tech airfoil planes if the AMA rules are followed (and they should be or changed through the formal process). I know that's where I am headed. The Woodies may not be out of the running, but they will still have modern airfoils and planforms and performance will be close to the best molded ships of today. Nostalgia will continue to grow little by little because the planes are in fact much more limited to advancements so the people looking for less than modern speed and cost will hang out there.Consistency usually works for events over long periods of time. In summary, if you want to invent and improve (most do) then keep to the RES rules, if you want to limit performance, stay with Nostalgia. Jack Iafret Keeper of the Nostalgia Rules - Original Message - From: Bill Conkling [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: John Roe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: rcse [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 12:37 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] RES what's in a name? TMSS is considering an RES contest again this year. As so few contestants enetered the AMA RES class last year, we are leaning toward a local rule class requireing built up wood wings. We had both last year since we were afraid that guys with new, high tech molded RES models would dominate the event and circumvent the intent of the event. Didn't happen. Only one high tech model showed up and it didn't really come on like 'gangbusters'. I'd suggest that you poll your market and see what the have to fly. For us, the intent was to have a contest where you could bring the old stuff and have fun. Have a contest aimed at the people who you expect to attend. .bc([EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.widomaker.com/~conk Williamsburg, VA 23185 On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, John Roe wrote: The Harbor Soaring Society like many clubs has a group of pilots who like to fly low tech planes, i.e. Rudder Elevator Spoiler only. This question was debated; As a competition class, what other restrictions should apply? The majority were happy with the AMA definition of RES, which allows any type of construction materials/methods and allows skegs. The other options discussed were: 1. Nostalgia rules, meaning designs kitted during or before 1980. 2. TPG rules, meaning AMA rules but no skegs 3. Local rules, in this case meaning RES controls, no skegs, and wood built up film covered wings, preferably constructed by the builder. The argument for AMA rules was that it is the most popular, most common and recognized. That it allows beginners or kids to buy a foamy or a complete plane and use it without trying to build a built-up model. And that the use of landing skegs makes landings much safer and especially for kids or beginners less likely to damage the plane or injure spectators. The argument for TPG rules was that Real men can land in a circle without skegs. The argument for nostalgia rules is that it is an established wood built-up wing class. The argument for Local Rules was that to achieve the goal of having only built up wood planes by using Nostalgia rules was too restrictive, as it doesn't allow for some popular designs after 1980. Also some members have their own design/modifications etc. that would not be allowed under nostalgia rules. Any thoughts? JR John Roe Laguna Hills, Ca www.MartialArtsAcademy.org - Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe
Re: [RCSE] Hitec Servo for 2m RES?
Bill, I believe your asking to lose a plane very early in it's life cycle. HS-50's only have 9 oz. in. of torque. A 3M ship with any airspeed will stall them. I wouldn't even attempt a dive test, I don't believe it would pull out, ever. Good Luck George PS, Just read the second post, even HS-55's in my opinion would be too small for a 3M ship. they only have 11 oz.in. of torque. At 09:43 AM 1/9/02 -0500, you wrote: I am building V' tail 3 M bird and will use Hitec HS-50's buried in the tails to operate the elevators. I see no reason why this wouldn't work with you 2M ship. .bc([EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.widomaker.com/~conk Williamsburg, VA 23185 On Wed, 9 Jan 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looking for suggestions for which Hitec servo to use for a 2m RES (V-tail). Trying to keep it light. Thanks, Randy RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Sam supporters?
Well. . .just as I suspected, not *one* person on this list acknowledged he was a supporter. . .or at least not willing to even privately admit it. Just wanted to let you guys know. No need to clutter the list with responses. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] F3J ships for sale
Need to retire 2000 World's ships and get some new ones. For Sale: Stratos SL, good cond. wrinkle in skin beyond spar on right tip, patched. 4 Volz Zips for V's and ailerons, Volz Micro-Maxxes for flaps. Currently set up for Duralite batteries, very easily modifiable for NiCd's. Was my primary ship at the World's. V-Tail RnR Millenium, good cond. White top, red bottom, red tips. Volz servos throughout (2 Zips for V's, 2 Micro-Maxxes for flaps, 2 Wing-Maxxes for ailerons). Set up for Duralite batteries, can be moddified for NiCd's. NSP Psycho, Like New. White top, blue bottom, red tips. Volz Zips for tail and ailerons, Micro-Maxxes or flaps. Set up for Duralite's or NiCd's. FVK Graphite, used cond. Slight damage to fuse, repaired. Some aesthetic damage to center section. Slight tears in covering on tail and tips (nothing that scotch tape can't fix). Extra right tip panel. Zip servos in fuse, Airtronics 141's in flaps set up with the Rotary Driver System (works great, but if you don't like it, it would be very easy to set up normally). Set up for NiCd's or Duralite's. Would make a great first F3J ship or TD ship. Best reasonable offer takes them! = Paul Griebenow 222456 Hwy 184 Lewis, CO __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Graupner servo data?
Is there somwere I can find data for the Graupner servos and receivers? - Regards Erik Wikran Tromso, Norway RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] tooling costs
Let's say, hypothetically, that someone was considering jobbing out his aircraft design to have a good fuselage mold and CNC mold for hollow wings made. Lets say, hypothetically, that the aircraft design would be a PSS warbird similar in type to the popular Slope Scale Models PSS series. Does anyone have any clue what kind of an investment this plan would require? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release Date: 1/2/2002 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Paging Bill in Laguna CA
Bill, I lost your email address, can you please contact me? BTW to the list: Southern California Slope Racer's season opener is F3F format this Saturday at Parker Mountain. All AMA members are welcome. AMA memberships can also be granted at the slope if needed. NOTE: If you're coming, I encourage you to park at the trailbase and carpool up. Remember, first one up, is last one down. Races generally start around noon. Directions: http://www.sloperacing.com/Sites/Parker.htm Nathan Woods Contest Director (949) 280-5710 cell RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Which GPS?
I've had several requests for the size/shape/model of GPS unit that might be suitable for sending up in a model to record data. Probably the best one readily available for this, and one that is very popular with the full-scale crowd is the Garmin E-trex. There are a couple of versions, you want the one that has barometric as well as GPS altitude capture, I believe it's the "Vista." The unit is about the size and shape of an 1800 series Nokia cell phone. Very useful in the car as well, or for boating, hiking or whatever... JR.John RoeLaguna Hills, Ca www.MartialArtsAcademy.org Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail.
RE: [RCSE] Production Runs
At 07:58 PM 1/9/02 -0800, tony estep wrote: --- Bill Bunny Kuhlman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's little wonder that the manufacturers of full size sailplanes are reluctant to explore planforms outside the realm of the conventional tailed variety. B^2 would love to see a full-size tailless sailplane, as would many others, but anybody who manufactured one would be setting him(her)self up for a lifetime of lawsuits and no upside... I could swear there was a full size tailless design a few years ago. I think I saw it in Soaring. Brett Jaffee: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brett's Slope and Power Home Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~jaffee OnTheWay Quake 3 server utility: http://www.planetquake.com/ontheway The Unoffical Extra 300 Home Page: http://bjaffee.tripod.com/extra300/ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
