Re: Re: [RCSE] Nats Issue and AMA ED
Chuck, That is what Wood Crafters is all about... kinda up the middle ... between a fun fly and contest and with Scale added, it really touches most of the bases. WC 06 will include Speed 400 Electric and Scale cross country. I like seeded MOM, it has it's own distinct feeling of tight competition, but it requires mucho ground support. Gotta be thankful there are groups willing to work hard to put on MOM contests. Ray Hayes http://www.skybench.com Home of Wood Crafters - Original Message - From: Chuck Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 10:16 PM Subject: Re: Re: [RCSE] Nats Issue and AMA ED I remember hearing somewhere that AMA has had some members stopping in wanting to fly at the AMA site but were disappointed that they were denied because there was an official event on the site. Don't remember where I heard this. I have certainly never heard of any problems with local fliers complaining about not being able to fly at the AMA site. I can understand why many sailplane fliers don't want anything to do with contest the way most of them are conducted today. We seem to have two types of sailplane fliers. Those who only want to fly MOM and those who want nothing to do with contests. How about a contest somewhere in between MOM and fun flying. Used to be a lot of them but not any more. :-( Chuck Anderson RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Re: ID this used sailplane for me?
It's a Dodgeson Windsong or Lovesong. It is not a Maestro, Maestro Megan,or Talisman. These Dodgeson sailplanes were of a prior generation dating back to the early 70's with a round all glass fuselage. Early versions of the Maestro had a rolled balsa boom. The wing construction on the Maestro series was built up and sheeted with balsa. Your plane can be flown off a Hi-start; I would suggest one from Aerofoam. Mounting the servos in the wing and using electronic mixing could also improve your experience with the plane. This is good sailplane and it will take you a long way. Have fun, John RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Nats Issue and AMA ED
If you read Dave Brown's column about a year ago he does explain that the locals were upset about not being able to fly. He says we need to work out something. I disagree. This is a national site, the locals have a great field all year round, this is not their private field. My feeling was... too bad. This is a national site. I also got first hand knowledge from someone in the AMA I wish to keep his anonymity. He echoed Dave's statement. This actually created a problem for us when we had the F3B TEAM Selection. Kaluf was going to allow them to fly while we were there. I passed it on to the locals that it would be closed during Team Selections. Word got out quickly. But the practice day we were forced to fly by the runway. Dennis Phelan and I were nearly hit by an out of control 1/4 scale ship going in at full bore. We were missed by 20 feet. Would have been nice if Kaluf hadn't forced us to fly in such a dangerous area. I don't know why he wouldn't let us fly in the soaring area. We had a building to impede distance and speed practice, and the gravel and paved runway to avoid when landing out in distance. Ray Hayes wrote: Primarily, the AMA field is the home to several free flight contests each year. Check the 2005 AMA on line calendar for specific usage, I'm thinking the club sanctioned FF events add up to about a month. I have not heard the Muncie guys complaining about the AMA field, they have their own flying site where they hold most of their monthlies. Outside of the Nats, the field is basically open during the week days all year and is used by the locals for FF, power and sailplane flying as well as visitors from around the country arriving in motor homes. I have seen large groups of youth being taught power flying by AMA employees, so as far as the field is concerned, AMA is on the right track in trying to promote the hobby. There are just a few sailplane clubs that do a bang up job of helping beginners. Tom, from my Sky Bench experience, I can tell you there are more guys flying sailplanes that don't belong to clubs than do belong. Ray Hayes http://www.skybench.com Home of Wood Crafters - Original Message - From: Dan Kitching [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: RCSE soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Nats Issue and AMA ED Well sure, they shouldn't have a problem giving up their flying site for whole month. Seeing how Indiana has a nice and warm year 'round flying season, an entire month shouldn't be an issue at all. Dan TJB wrote: Are there really that many pilots in Muncie that they can't spare a month out of the year for competition? And one issue a year about competition shouldn't be such a big deal. How are people going to learn about it and become interested? I guess it won't be long before AMA becomes the AEA (All Electric Association), like many of the soaring clubs. Heck, the majority of the soaring pilots in our area don't even want to have a club. They just get together at a field and fly, no club, no dues, no contests, no hassle. T TG 32 Mount View Dr Afton, VA 22920 540 943-3356 fax 943-4178 - Original Message - From: James V. Bacus [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 6:22 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Nats Issue and AMA ED That's not what I heard from the editor of the mag. I heard that the AMA received numerous letters from members that were tired of seeing an entire issue about competition. There is a similar issue with members not liking the AMA facilities and grounds being used for an entire month for competition which they supposedly received letters about. So a number of days was cut from Nats this year. So in one year we almost lost a day at Nats, but shifted to starting on Friday to keep all the dates and we have lost the magazine coverage for the Nats. It seems a growing number of modelers are not interested in contest flying. I think that's unfortunate because that's my favorite part about soaring. And the Nats issue was my favorite issue for the entire year, now it's just a Christmas catalog of advertisements. At 08:32 PM 10/30/2005, ROBERT M GELLART wrote: Just for the record, from what I know, it was the Model Aviation staff that generated this idea, not AMA staff. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be
Re: Re: [RCSE] Nats Issue and AMA ED
Jeff, What Kaluf did is SOP at AMA during the week, and since you were not in an official event, that is where everyone flies at AMA in an uncontrolled environment. I will admit, it is not a great B site, but to control frequencies, all fliers have to work from center on any open flying day. There is talk of a frquency control program that would cover the entire site, but I think it is far in the future. Even when the MIST guys have the field for a contest, if guys show up with power ships or such, after a conflab to concur on frequencies, usually they can proceed to south end and fly. And FF'ers are there many days that soaring is going on, so, sometimes you have a FF model end up on the site too. I know it is a hassle sometimes when you are doing such specialized flying, but what was done is the norm. Marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] IAC Use IN July
Chuck brought up about guys rolling into AMA to fly and finding the Nats going on and no open flying. Yes, there are a few guys who show up, I have heard numbers in the hundreds, but in actuallity, Ron Morgan (Nats Manager) says that maybe 20-30 guys may be close to reality. Now, I know that if I show up for a cold call to a customer and he is not available, so be it, and so should these guys. I guess AMA has some issues with wanting these guys to fly, but safety, frequency control, and the main job at hand, The Nats, do carry the day. Now, in the evening, if safe and approved by whatever Contest ED and Nats Manager, someone can fly and usually FF and control line can fly if there end of the IAC is open. That is how we handled it in '05 and will be the same in '06. Personnally, if you show up and some how you are an AMA member and have not heard that the Nats going on in July in Muncie, you are probably pretty much out of touch. But I guess I am a hard ass too, right Edgar? But I love you man! Marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Nats Issue and AMA ED
That's not totally true Marc. The locals were saying that on normal days the guys flying gliders (really one or two). Go over to our soaring area. The leave their cards on the boards and put a note that they are over at the soaring area. Kaluf told us we couldn't do that, even though all the locals said it is done daily.So the rules are bent daily. Marc Gellart wrote: Jeff, What Kaluf did is SOP at AMA during the week, and since you were not in an official event, that is where everyone flies at AMA in an uncontrolled environment. I will admit, it is not a great B site, but to control frequencies, all fliers have to work from center on any open flying day. There is talk of a frquency control program that would cover the entire site, but I think it is far in the future. Even when the MIST guys have the field for a contest, if guys show up with power ships or such, after a conflab to concur on frequencies, usually they can proceed to south end and fly. And FF'ers are there many days that soaring is going on, so, sometimes you have a FF model end up on the site too. I know it is a hassle sometimes when you are doing such specialized flying, but what was done is the norm. Marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Fw: [RCSE] For Sale-Airtronics Adante Sailplane
Price reduced to $135.00 + $15.00 shipping (priority mail + insurance ) I also have pictures that I can send to you. A.B. - Original Message - From: A. B. Lyles [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 4:02 PM Subject: [RCSE] For Sale-Airtronics Adante Sailplane For sale NIB good condition Airtronics Adante. WS 99, WA 880 , full span flaperons, foam wing cores, balsa wing sheeting, Quabeck Airfoil, FG fuse, Airtronics quality. $135.00 + shipping. Thanks A.B.[EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Nats Issue and AMA ED
In six years of flying during the week at Muncie, I have never herd or seen anyone flying at the soaring site with their card/note in the freq. control box. All the sailplane flying I have seen during the week has taken place at Central. It actually is much more convenient than the soaring site. Also, I have never heard any of the MISS guys complaining. Actually, I feel it would be unwise to fly on the soaring site during the week. Probably the best way to get shot down at Muncie I can think of. Ray Hayes http://www.skybench.com Home of Wood Crafters - Original Message - From: Jeff Steifel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Marc Gellart [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Ray Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Dan Kitching [EMAIL PROTECTED]; RCSE soaring@airage.com Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Nats Issue and AMA ED That's not totally true Marc. The locals were saying that on normal days the guys flying gliders (really one or two). Go over to our soaring area. The leave their cards on the boards and put a note that they are over at the soaring area. Kaluf told us we couldn't do that, even though all the locals said it is done daily.So the rules are bent daily. Marc Gellart wrote: Jeff, What Kaluf did is SOP at AMA during the week, and since you were not in an official event, that is where everyone flies at AMA in an uncontrolled environment. I will admit, it is not a great B site, but to control frequencies, all fliers have to work from center on any open flying day. There is talk of a frquency control program that would cover the entire site, but I think it is far in the future. Even when the MIST guys have the field for a contest, if guys show up with power ships or such, after a conflab to concur on frequencies, usually they can proceed to south end and fly. And FF'ers are there many days that soaring is going on, so, sometimes you have a FF model end up on the site too. I know it is a hassle sometimes when you are doing such specialized flying, but what was done is the norm. Marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] New AMA Executive Director
Here's an idea - why not someone from the R/C soaring community as the new AMA Executive Director? If you are interested or know some one who might be a good candidate, why not pop an email to a member of the selection committee? Here they are: Andy Argenio [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dave Mathewson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Richard Hanson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Let's get a modeler that has good business sense not a business type that doesn't understand our hobby, Jim Deck RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] F3X shirts?
Title: F3X shirts? When do the F3B and F3J shirts become available? Id like to support the teams by buying several. TIA gv
RE: [RCSE] F3X shirts?
Title: F3X shirts? The F3J team shirt design is in progress, should not be much longer. The team appreciates your support and is looking forward to getting these available. Jim Jim Monaco President - Rocky Mountain Soaring Association Denver, CO http://www.rmsadenver.com From: George Voss [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 9:37 AM To: RCSE Subject: [RCSE] F3X shirts? When do the F3B and F3J shirts become available? Id like to support the teams by buying several. TIA gv
[RCSE] Some Thoughts on AMA
All the comments I have read on this exchange over the last two days bring to mind some ideas that have been boiling in my mind for a couple of years regarding the Academy of Model Aeronautics and how it is organized. First, a little background regarding me. I have been a model airplane hobbyist for forty-eight years. My father and his brother were modelers before me. Like many others in the RC soaring branch of the hobby, I have built and flown FF, CL, RC gas, and electric models over the years, but have been pretty much exclusive to RC soaring for the last fifteen years. I fly with the Soaring League of North Texas (SLNT) in the Dallas/ Ft Worth area and am an AMA contest director. I think you could say I am an active contest flyer. Holding thirty-one club contests a year, SLNT may be the most active competition club in the country. There are thirteen unlimited sailplane contests including two separate contest days of the Texas National Tournament (TNT) each year. We will complete a total of fifteen handlaunch/DLG contests this year. There were also three RES events including one at TNT. I have flown in all but about three of these events over the past five or six years and have been CD of all the handlaunch events for the last six years. Attendance at these competitions has ranged from about eight to forty-five entrants with the average being between fifteen and twenty per event. Except for this year, SLNT has obtained AMA sanctions for about fourteen of these contests each year for at least as many years as I have been involved. My issue with the organization of AMA is that AMA is governed by an executive council made up of elected regional vice presidents. These officers are elected by AMA members within a geographic area regardless of their interest in the various disciplines of the hobby. For the most part geographical areas are irrelevent to the issues affecting AMA. It is clear to me that this system is doing a poor job of representing and dealing with the needs of a large portion of the hobby, including soaring. Model aviation has evolved into a diverse set of disciplines with many AMA members specializing in just one or a small subset of these disciplines. There do not seem to be many pylon racers who fly sailplanes, helicopters, indoor free flight, and control line carrier as well. How effectively are they represented by their regional vice president? I believe that this system should be replaced by a realignment of the governing board along the lines of special interest groups representing the modeling disciplines. Each special interest group should function as a separate division of the organization with its own funding and staff. The executive council should be made up of the heads of these groups with some form of proportional representation based on the number of members in each group. Members having interests in multiple special interest groups should be given the opportunity to join multiple groups paying dues reflecting these multiple interests. The current organization of AMA is a legacy of the state of the sport in the 1930's and 1940's when the academy was formed. Just making a model fly was a major achievement in those days. With rare exceptions, free flight was the only choice. Competition was primarily segmented along the lines of the age of the flyer and how the free flight models were powered. Junior, Senior, and Open flyers flew glider, rubber, or gas free flight models in AMA events. The interests of modelers in Virginia were different from those in California and representation was needed primarily to address those regional interests. Today, age group competition is almost non-existent. Flyers travel the whole country to fly in AMA events within their special interests. There are at least eight different segments of RC soaring each having their own needs regarding safety, insurance, flying sites, air space, competition regulation, radio frequency control, and launch equipment issues. These segments include electric, flat land thermal, slope, dynamic, hand launch, aero-tow, F3J, and F3B. AMA's regional vice presidents, for the most part, have no awareness let alone informed positions regarding any of these segments or their specialized issues and yet they govern our sport. The AMA contest sanction packages I have received recently have each had several pages of information and a waiver form regarding the use of jet turbine engines in my sailplane contests. AMA says we should not fly gliders higher than 400 feet AGL, but those same packages also included forms for measuring and filing for altitude records for models flying up to several thousand feet high. The safety column in Model Aviation has a lot of information about people cutting their fingers on propellers, but nothing about a dynamic soarer traveling at speeds so fast that if its wing were to hit you in the neck it would remove
Re: [RCSE] Some Thoughts on AMA
Very well written and I agree with, well, everything you said. This is, IMHO, very good constructive criticism. -Mike Smith At 12:18 PM 11/1/2005, Tim Bennett wrote: All the comments I have read on this exchange over the last two days bring to mind some ideas that have been boiling in my mind for a couple of years regarding the Academy of Model Aeronautics and how it is organized. First, a little background regarding me. I have been a model airplane hobbyist for forty-eight years. My father and his brother were modelers before me. Like many others in the RC soaring branch of the hobby, I have built and flown FF, CL, RC gas, and electric models over the years, but have been pretty much exclusive to RC soaring for the last fifteen years. I fly with the Soaring League of North Texas (SLNT) in the Dallas/ Ft Worth area and am an AMA contest director. I think you could say I am an active contest flyer. Holding thirty-one club contests a year, SLNT may be the most active competition club in the country. There are thirteen unlimited sailplane contests including two separate contest days of the Texas National Tournament (TNT) each year. We will complete a total of fifteen handlaunch/DLG contests this year. There were also three RES events including one at TNT. I have flown in all but about three of these events over the past five or six years and have been CD of all the handlaunch events for the last six years. Attendance at these competitions has ranged from about eight to forty-five entrants with the average being between fifteen and twenty per event. Except for this year, SLNT has obtained AMA sanctions for about fourteen of these contests each year for at least as many years as I have been involved. My issue with the organization of AMA is that AMA is governed by an executive council made up of elected regional vice presidents. These officers are elected by AMA members within a geographic area regardless of their interest in the various disciplines of the hobby. For the most part geographical areas are irrelevent to the issues affecting AMA. It is clear to me that this system is doing a poor job of representing and dealing with the needs of a large portion of the hobby, including soaring. Model aviation has evolved into a diverse set of disciplines with many AMA members specializing in just one or a small subset of these disciplines. There do not seem to be many pylon racers who fly sailplanes, helicopters, indoor free flight, and control line carrier as well. How effectively are they represented by their regional vice president? I believe that this system should be replaced by a realignment of the governing board along the lines of special interest groups representing the modeling disciplines. Each special interest group should function as a separate division of the organization with its own funding and staff. The executive council should be made up of the heads of these groups with some form of proportional representation based on the number of members in each group. Members having interests in multiple special interest groups should be given the opportunity to join multiple groups paying dues reflecting these multiple interests. The current organization of AMA is a legacy of the state of the sport in the 1930's and 1940's when the academy was formed. Just making a model fly was a major achievement in those days. With rare exceptions, free flight was the only choice. Competition was primarily segmented along the lines of the age of the flyer and how the free flight models were powered. Junior, Senior, and Open flyers flew glider, rubber, or gas free flight models in AMA events. The interests of modelers in Virginia were different from those in California and representation was needed primarily to address those regional interests. Today, age group competition is almost non-existent. Flyers travel the whole country to fly in AMA events within their special interests. There are at least eight different segments of RC soaring each having their own needs regarding safety, insurance, flying sites, air space, competition regulation, radio frequency control, and launch equipment issues. These segments include electric, flat land thermal, slope, dynamic, hand launch, aero-tow, F3J, and F3B. AMA's regional vice presidents, for the most part, have no awareness let alone informed positions regarding any of these segments or their specialized issues and yet they govern our sport. The AMA contest sanction packages I have received recently have each had several pages of information and a waiver form regarding the use of jet turbine engines in my sailplane contests. AMA says we should not fly gliders higher than 400 feet AGL, but those same packages also included forms for measuring and filing for altitude records for models flying up to several thousand feet high. The safety column in Model Aviation has a lot of information about people cutting their fingers on propellers, but nothing
Re: [RCSE] Some Thoughts on AMA
Tim, take off your flame suit. I think you covered the topic very well and I am in agreement with your thoughts. I've spoken to the editor of the AMA magazine. It was clear to me that he felt that the soaring community was a tiny part of our hobby. He still seems to think that control line flying is the end all of the hobby. Sad to see Mike Garton leave and that soaring has been significantly reduced in the magazine. The lack of coverage of the NATS is further evidence that the AMA is out of touch with what is happening within our hobby. Ed - Original Message - From: Tim Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: RCSE Soaring soaring@airage.com Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 2:18 PM Subject: [RCSE] Some Thoughts on AMA All the comments I have read on this exchange over the last two days bring to mind some ideas that have been boiling in my mind for a couple of years regarding the Academy of Model Aeronautics and how it is organized. First, a little background regarding me. I have been a model airplane hobbyist for forty-eight years. My father and his brother were modelers before me. Like many others in the RC soaring branch of the hobby, I have built and flown FF, CL, RC gas, and electric models over the years, but have been pretty much exclusive to RC soaring for the last fifteen years. I fly with the Soaring League of North Texas (SLNT) in the Dallas/ Ft Worth area and am an AMA contest director. I think you could say I am an active contest flyer. Holding thirty-one club contests a year, SLNT may be the most active competition club in the country. There are thirteen unlimited sailplane contests including two separate contest days of the Texas National Tournament (TNT) each year. We will complete a total of fifteen handlaunch/DLG contests this year. There were also three RES events including one at TNT. I have flown in all but about three of these events over the past five or six years and have been CD of all the handlaunch events for the last six years. Attendance at these competitions has ranged from about eight to forty-five entrants with the average being between fifteen and twenty per event. Except for this year, SLNT has obtained AMA sanctions for about fourteen of these contests each year for at least as many years as I have been involved. My issue with the organization of AMA is that AMA is governed by an executive council made up of elected regional vice presidents. These officers are elected by AMA members within a geographic area regardless of their interest in the various disciplines of the hobby. For the most part geographical areas are irrelevent to the issues affecting AMA. It is clear to me that this system is doing a poor job of representing and dealing with the needs of a large portion of the hobby, including soaring. Model aviation has evolved into a diverse set of disciplines with many AMA members specializing in just one or a small subset of these disciplines. There do not seem to be many pylon racers who fly sailplanes, helicopters, indoor free flight, and control line carrier as well. How effectively are they represented by their regional vice president? I believe that this system should be replaced by a realignment of the governing board along the lines of special interest groups representing the modeling disciplines. Each special interest group should function as a separate division of the organization with its own funding and staff. The executive council should be made up of the heads of these groups with some form of proportional representation based on the number of members in each group. Members having interests in multiple special interest groups should be given the opportunity to join multiple groups paying dues reflecting these multiple interests. The current organization of AMA is a legacy of the state of the sport in the 1930's and 1940's when the academy was formed. Just making a model fly was a major achievement in those days. With rare exceptions, free flight was the only choice. Competition was primarily segmented along the lines of the age of the flyer and how the free flight models were powered. Junior, Senior, and Open flyers flew glider, rubber, or gas free flight models in AMA events. The interests of modelers in Virginia were different from those in California and representation was needed primarily to address those regional interests. Today, age group competition is almost non-existent. Flyers travel the whole country to fly in AMA events within their special interests. There are at least eight different segments of RC soaring each having their own needs regarding safety, insurance, flying sites, air space, competition regulation, radio frequency control, and launch equipment issues. These segments include electric, flat land thermal, slope, dynamic, hand launch, aero-tow, F3J, and F3B. AMA's regional vice presidents, for the most part, have no awareness let alone
Re: [RCSE] Some Thoughts on AMA
Very good analysis, and I agree with all. Browne Goodwin
Re: [RCSE] Some Thoughts on AMA
Wow. A great and well-reasoned article. I couldn't agree more. Tim Bennett wrote: All the comments I have read on this exchange over the last two days bring to mind some ideas that have been boiling in my mind for a couple of years regarding the Academy of Model Aeronautics and how it is organized. Tim Bennett -- Ben Wilson Web Developer/Consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] cell: 502.836.8551 home: 502.290.0624 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Some Thoughts on AMA
Very well written. I agree with you. This would make a very good letter to the Magazine and executive council to stir things up. One thing; remove the part about DS removing someones head. In case you don't remember Dave Brown almost outlawed slope combat. I talked to him about it and he was an idiot about it. I also spoke with Dave Mathews about it and he too was unwilling to discus it. So I don't think we want to represent our dangerous side right now. Tim Bennett wrote: All the comments I have read on this exchange over the last two days bring to mind some ideas that have been boiling in my mind for a couple of years regarding the Academy of Model Aeronautics and how it is organized. snip -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Model Aviation Editor's reply
Fellow forum members, I normally don't post private responses in this forum but, by posting this portion of Bob Hunt's (MA Editor) reply to my comments on the 2005 NATS MA issue, I can lower my blood pressure a few points. The portion follows: I appreciate your comments, but please understand that this was not a Nats Issue. There was a Nats overview report by Mark (Sorry you didn't like it), and that's all we intend to do in the future. We published 271 pages of Nats reports on a daily basis on the web, and that's how we have decided to cover the Nats from here on. I'm a competitor, too, and at first I didn't like the idea either. Now I find it to be the only reasonable way to produce proper coverage and in a timely manner. The competitor is now in the minority in AMA. In fact, less than 5 percent of our membership compete in any manner at all. We simply cannot justify devoting all of 1/12 of our yearly editorial pages to just one meet - even if it is the Nats. The daily reporting concept gives up to the minute news and it will continue to be how we report on the Nats. Hopefully next year's Nats overview in Model Aviation will be written from a more acceptable perspective. We are trying to adjust our magazine coverage to reflect the actual membership and their interests. Tough job... One wonders if we'll see more soaring content in future issues? Probably not until we can figure out how to hang our sailplanes by the nose ala' the aircraft on this month's cover. Let's see now - if competition is a minority then competitive soaring must be ... Thanks for letting me vent - I feel much better now, Jim Deck RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Model Aviation Editor's reply
I am not at all surprised by the response your recevied from Hunt. I too have spoken with him and received a similar reaction. From his point of view, we hardly exist. Further, he seems to think that his personal interests trump those of his membership. I do realize that someone has to make decisions that will not always please everyone but Hunt displays a rather arragont attitude that does not wear well with me. I guess I thought we were their customers not their serfs. Maybe if we attached a control line to our gliders, slope models and DS planes Hunt would have a more receptive attitude. Ed Original Message - From: Jim Deck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: RCSE soaring@airage.com Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 3:17 PM Subject: [RCSE] Model Aviation Editor's reply Fellow forum members, I normally don't post private responses in this forum but, by posting this portion of Bob Hunt's (MA Editor) reply to my comments on the 2005 NATS MA issue, I can lower my blood pressure a few points. The portion follows: I appreciate your comments, but please understand that this was not a Nats Issue. There was a Nats overview report by Mark (Sorry you didn't like it), and that's all we intend to do in the future. We published 271 pages of Nats reports on a daily basis on the web, and that's how we have decided to cover the Nats from here on. I'm a competitor, too, and at first I didn't like the idea either. Now I find it to be the only reasonable way to produce proper coverage and in a timely manner. The competitor is now in the minority in AMA. In fact, less than 5 percent of our membership compete in any manner at all. We simply cannot justify devoting all of 1/12 of our yearly editorial pages to just one meet - even if it is the Nats. The daily reporting concept gives up to the minute news and it will continue to be how we report on the Nats. Hopefully next year's Nats overview in Model Aviation will be written from a more acceptable perspective. We are trying to adjust our magazine coverage to reflect the actual membership and their interests. Tough job... One wonders if we'll see more soaring content in future issues? Probably not until we can figure out how to hang our sailplanes by the nose ala' the aircraft on this month's cover. Let's see now - if competition is a minority then competitive soaring must be ... Thanks for letting me vent - I feel much better now, Jim Deck RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Some Thoughts on AMA
Sad to see Mike Garton leave and that soaring has been significantly reduced in the magazine. The lack of coverage of the NATS is further evidence that the AMA is out of touch with what is happening within our hobby. Ed, The amount of soaring coverage has not changed. Mike had every other month. I have the column now and it is still every other month. Several have inquired to see if we could get it back to every month but I don't think that will happen. The AMA is not out of touch at all with Soaring. I'm sure every discipline of modeling is having their own discussion as to how they were slighted on the coverage. The fact of the matter like or not, is NATS is a big event. There is simply no way to adequately give each event proper coverage. So, a balance has to be acheived. I think they did a pretty good job of covering everything. Was it enough? Certainly not. As I have noted several times in the Soaring Column, I am only the medium to bring it to you. If anyone has input then send it to me and I will do everything possible to report on it. I think we are expecting too much out of the organization. Look at the EAA, their membership is consistent with AMA and they have the same issues regarding coverage of the various aspects of Experimental aircraft. At the annual Oshkosh fly in, there is always one group or another that felt they weren't placed in a good location, food was inadequate, etc.. For what we pay, I believe we get a good value. It is not perfect, never will be and someone will always be unhappy. AMA is what we make it. If you don't like what is happening, vote for a new President or District VP and make you thoughts known. Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ Soaring- Model Aviation RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Some Thoughts on AMA
Tim, I agree 100 percent. Also, that is probably the most well written and thought out post I have seen on RCSE all year. Kudos to you my man. See Ya, Pat McCleave Wichita, KS From: Tim Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2005/11/01 Tue PM 03:18:21 EST To: RCSE Soaring soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] Some Thoughts on AMA All the comments I have read on this exchange over the last two days bring to mind some ideas that have been boiling in my mind for a couple of years regarding the Academy of Model Aeronautics and how it is organized. First, a little background regarding me. I have been a model airplane hobbyist for forty-eight years. My father and his brother were modelers before me. Like many others in the RC soaring branch of the hobby, I have built and flown FF, CL, RC gas, and electric models over the years, but have been pretty much exclusive to RC soaring for the last fifteen years. I fly with the Soaring League of North Texas (SLNT) in the Dallas/ Ft Worth area and am an AMA contest director. I think you could say I am an active contest flyer. Holding thirty-one club contests a year, SLNT may be the most active competition club in the country. There are thirteen unlimited sailplane contests including two separate contest days of the Texas National Tournament (TNT) each year. We will complete a total of fifteen handlaunch/DLG contests this year. There were also three RES events including one at TNT. I have flown in all but about three of these events over the past five or six years and have been CD of all the handlaunch events for the last six years. Attendance at these competitions has ranged from about eight to forty-five entrants with the average being between fifteen and twenty per event. Except for this year, SLNT has obtained AMA sanctions for about fourteen of these contests each year for at least as many years as I have been involved. My issue with the organization of AMA is that AMA is governed by an executive council made up of elected regional vice presidents. These officers are elected by AMA members within a geographic area regardless of their interest in the various disciplines of the hobby. For the most part geographical areas are irrelevent to the issues affecting AMA. It is clear to me that this system is doing a poor job of representing and dealing with the needs of a large portion of the hobby, including soaring. Model aviation has evolved into a diverse set of disciplines with many AMA members specializing in just one or a small subset of these disciplines. There do not seem to be many pylon racers who fly sailplanes, helicopters, indoor free flight, and control line carrier as well. How effectively are they represented by their regional vice president? I believe that this system should be replaced by a realignment of the governing board along the lines of special interest groups representing the modeling disciplines. Each special interest group should function as a separate division of the organization with its own funding and staff. The executive council should be made up of the heads of these groups with some form of proportional representation based on the number of members in each group. Members having interests in multiple special interest groups should be given the opportunity to join multiple groups paying dues reflecting these multiple interests. The current organization of AMA is a legacy of the state of the sport in the 1930's and 1940's when the academy was formed. Just making a model fly was a major achievement in those days. With rare exceptions, free flight was the only choice. Competition was primarily segmented along the lines of the age of the flyer and how the free flight models were powered. Junior, Senior, and Open flyers flew glider, rubber, or gas free flight models in AMA events. The interests of modelers in Virginia were different from those in California and representation was needed primarily to address those regional interests. Today, age group competition is almost non-existent. Flyers travel the whole country to fly in AMA events within their special interests. There are at least eight different segments of RC soaring each having their own needs regarding safety, insurance, flying sites, air space, competition regulation, radio frequency control, and launch equipment issues. These segments include electric, flat land thermal, slope, dynamic, hand launch, aero-tow, F3J, and F3B. AMA's regional vice presidents, for the most part, have no awareness let alone informed positions regarding any of these segments or their specialized issues and yet they govern our sport. The AMA contest sanction packages I have received recently have each had several pages of information and a waiver form regarding the use of jet turbine engines in my sailplane contests. AMA says we should not fly gliders
Re: [RCSE] Model Aviation Editor's reply
I was going to hold my tongue on this whole topic, but this sort of set me off. (It's raining here and GPS is setting in!) We simply cannot justify devoting all of 1/12 of our yearly editorial pages to just one meet - even if it is the Nats. But they can justify putting an entire magazine sized product guide (ad) in the middle of the magazine (upsidedown). I won't even look at the product guide let alone actually order from it. My dream would be for all of us glider guys (that only fly at glider fields or non fields) get together and form our own group for insuring ourselves and the fields for glider only and specified E-powered activities. The insurance for our type of activities is very reasonble, think about it, there really isn't a lot of risk. I'm not renewing my AMA membership, I haven't used it for 3 years. I may renew if I end up moving to an area with an active field, but the insurance for accessing the site would be the only real reason. The less than $10.00 insurance isn't worth the $50+ dollar membership. I look at the pretty pictures in the magazine and then throw it away. My $0.02 worth Mark Mech www.aerofoam.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] ED's reply to Jim Deck
If you will permit me a moment's insanity: this response is nothing but unadulterated, unabashed, ridiculousgarbage. And, if I weren't who I am, I'd use lots stronger language than that. What group, if it has a competition, doesn't devote substantial time/energy/space to reporting its NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP? (Go ahead, Visalia flyers, flame away.). Can you imagine the NFL downplaying the Super Bowl? Or MBL the World Series? It's rare that someone's aimless regurgitations get my ire up, but this one absolutely takesthe cake. Maybe sometime I'll let you know how I REALLY feel about it. Dana The competitor is now in the minority in AMA. In fact, less than 5 percentof our membership compete in any manner at all. We simply cannot justifydevoting all of 1/12 of our yearly editorial pages to just one meet - evenif it is the Nats.
Re: [RCSE] Some Thoughts on AMA
Tim, I have some comments inserted. I don't disagree in principal with your ideas, however this method would be completely impractical. My issue with the organization of AMA is that AMA is governed by an executive council made up of elected regional vice presidents. These officers are elected by AMA members within a geographic area regardless of their interest in the various disciplines of the hobby. For the most part geographical areas are irrelevent to the issues affecting AMA. It is clear to me that this system is doing a poor job of representing and dealing with the needs of a large portion of the hobby, including soaring. Model aviation has evolved into a diverse set of disciplines with many AMA members specializing in just one or a small subset of these disciplines. There do not seem to be many pylon racers who fly sailplanes, helicopters, indoor free flight, and control line carrier as well. How effectively are they represented by their regional vice president? You answered your own question in one of your sentences, model aviation has evolved into a diverse set of disciplines with AMA members specializing. For this reason alone having reps for each discipline is impractical. Also, maybe you are involved in one aspect, but I would disagree and say that there are many more multi faceted modelers than ever before. Example, I do soaring, GS aerobatics and have ventured back into helicopters. I believe that this system should be replaced by a realignment of the governing board along the lines of special interest groups representing the modeling disciplines. Each special interest group should function as a separate division of the organization with its own funding and staff. The executive council should be made up of the heads of these groups with some form of proportional representation based on the number of members in each group. Members having interests in multiple special interest groups should be given the opportunity to join multiple groups paying dues reflecting these multiple interests. Sigs are involved in virtually every aspect of the AMA. The fact is competition is a very small part of the AMA. I think the stats are something less than 2% of AMA members compete. The current organization of AMA is a legacy of the state of the sport in the 1930's and 1940's when the academy was formed. Just making a model fly was a major achievement in those days. With rare exceptions, free flight was the only choice. Competition was primarily segmented along the lines of the age of the flyer and how the free flight models were powered. Junior, Senior, and Open flyers flew glider, rubber, or gas free flight models in AMA events. The interests of modelers in Virginia were different from those in California and representation was needed primarily to address those regional interests. Again, to diverse to have representation in this manner. Today, age group competition is almost non-existent. Flyers travel the whole country to fly in AMA events within their special interests. There are at least eight different segments of RC soaring each having their own needs regarding safety, insurance, flying sites, air space, competition regulation, radio frequency control, and launch equipment issues. These segments include electric, flat land thermal, slope, dynamic, hand launch, aero-tow, F3J, and F3B. AMA's regional vice presidents, for the most part, have no awareness let alone informed positions regarding any of these segments or their specialized issues and yet they govern our sport. The leadership is charged with overseeing the general interests of modelers. To have specific knowledge of each discipline is unrealistic. Just like a CEO of a big company, he/she doesn't have intimate knowledge of every aspect of the corporation. Not possible. The AMA contest sanction packages I have received recently have each had several pages of information and a waiver form regarding the use of jet turbine engines in my sailplane contests. AMA says we should not fly gliders higher than 400 feet AGL, but those same packages also included forms for measuring and filing for altitude records for models flying up to several thousand feet high. The safety column in Model Aviation has a lot of information about people cutting their fingers on propellers, but nothing about a dynamic soarer traveling at speeds so fast that if its wing were to hit you in the neck it would remove your head without knocking you off your feet (300+ MPH). The soaring community needs AMA to address these issues and represent soaring's needs more than it needs to represent all the flyers from region 7 versus those from region 8. We need representatives that know that a hand launch glider doesn't use a jet turbine engine. We need to not be paying insurance premiums for helicopters and fifty-pound, multi-engine meat grinders when we fly ten ounce floaters. This is a matter of economics. To break
Re: [RCSE] Model Aviation Editor's reply
Wow, less than 5%? Sure isn't that number in our club, or the soaring clubs around Southern California. More like 50%, and in our club that number is higher. We use competitions as one way to fly together. These are not cut throat, yet they are competitive. I must be really out of touch with the rest of the AMA world, because less than 5% is a really small number. So for every twenty modelers only one flies competitively? JE -- Erickson Architects John R. Erickson, AIA The competitor is now in the minority in AMA. In fact, less than 5 percent of our membership compete in any manner at all. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Model Aviation Editor's reply
John, count your blessing, you are very fortunate to belong to a good club in a good area of the country, I envey you Californians. Enjoy Ray Hayes http://www.skybench.com Home of Wood Crafters - Original Message - From: John Erickson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jim Deck [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Soaring List soaring@airage.com Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Model Aviation Editor's reply Wow, less than 5%? Sure isn't that number in our club, or the soaring clubs around Southern California. More like 50%, and in our club that number is higher. We use competitions as one way to fly together. These are not cut throat, yet they are competitive. I must be really out of touch with the rest of the AMA world, because less than 5% is a really small number. So for every twenty modelers only one flies competitively? JE -- Erickson Architects John R. Erickson, AIA The competitor is now in the minority in AMA. In fact, less than 5 percent of our membership compete in any manner at all. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] ED's reply to Jim Deck
Hmm, sorta casts some doubts on the necessity of having the grand shrine to the AMA and it's competitive spirit in Muncie. If it doesn't really reflect the needs of the members, why are we supporting it? I don't mind the web only coverage. Print magazines are on the way out. Sure wish we could opt out of paying for the MA rag. Big disconnect at AMA, not all the managers are playing from the same playbook. Lee Estingoy Overland Park, KS - Original Message - From: Dana Flemming To: soaring Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 4:05 PM Subject: [RCSE] ED's reply to Jim Deck If you will permit me a moment's insanity: this response is nothing but unadulterated, unabashed, ridiculousgarbage. And, if I weren't who I am, I'd use lots stronger language than that. What group, if it has a competition, doesn't devote substantial time/energy/space to reporting its NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP? (Go ahead, Visalia flyers, flame away.). Can you imagine the NFL downplaying the Super Bowl? Or MBL the World Series? It's rare that someone's aimless regurgitations get my ire up, but this one absolutely takesthe cake. Maybe sometime I'll let you know how I REALLY feel about it. Dana The competitor is now in the minority in AMA. In fact, less than 5 percentof our membership compete in any manner at all. We simply cannot justifydevoting all of 1/12 of our yearly editorial pages to just one meet - evenif it is the Nats.
[RCSE] Re: Some thoughts on AMA
Well, it's an interesting argument. Not taking a side at this point, but let me ask this question: If the regional VP's aren't representing your soaring interests well, can you say it's not because of a lack of contact with your particular interest group? In other words, how often does your club communicate to the regional V.P., and I mean more than mailing him a copy of your newsletter (though that's a good start)? How often do you talk to the veep or e-mail him? Do they get regular invites to the club contests? Do they know how many people are flying gliders in their district? I'm asking have you tried to meet them at least half-way, or are you passively hoping they get it by some kind of osmosis? Because even in a small region, it's a LOT of clubs for one guy to deal with, each one by itself is probably a blip on their radar, unless it presents some problem or special situation. All those clubs have different and sometimes competing interests, all vying for attention. The ones that push their intersts most, that remain top of mind, they influence the trends in the decision making. That's also the way our actual government tends to work: the squeaky wheel and all that. Sailplaners tend to be iconoclasts in a hobby that attracts iconoclastic people. I think the process using regional Veeps that's in place can work for us just fine, if we remember to stay fully engaged with it. If the veep has a particular preference in the hobby, and it doesn't favor our needs, well, you can also vote for new veeps that better recognize your needs. Democracy is not a good system for the lazy or the indifferent: it's a contact sport, and you don't win if you don't play. Can't be a lone eagle and complain the flocks get the better free seed. By shifting the AMA structure towards reps from interest groups, I think you actually make it less fair than you feel it is now: you turn it into a popularity contest that can be affected by lobbying, and the commercial interests of the hobby would tend to override the member interests. There's a reason it's called an academy, versus an association; the distinctions are subtle, but real. But this is an interesting topic of discussion, I'd like to hear other's opinions as well. -mark RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Some Thoughts on AMA
Tim, Well thought out points. No flame suit necessary. I appreciate you and others sharing your insights. One very minor correction to your note. The AMA says we should not fly over 400' AGL within 3 miles of an airport, not just anywhere. I would venture to guess that we in the sailplane community would have the same or less representation in the new AMA you envision, then we have now. Why? Sheer numbers. Only the AMA knows how many people check off soaring as their primary interest each year on their AMA membership renewals. My guess is that it's about 2-5% of the total membership. My guess is based on magazine ad coverage, vendor product mixes, and club availability for soaring activities. We would have representation that understands sailplanes and who we are. After all, this rep. would be some kind of sailplane pilot, I presume. But that rep. would have a very small % of any vote. Again my guess would be 5%. The ~70% sport power flyer, who pays his dues just to belong to a club which has a field, would dominate the AMA's agendas. Very small groups, (ala any FAI task) would have virtually no voice, unless the collective leadership thought it important that the USA have FAI teams, and fund them. Regardless of how the AMA is governed, IMHO the vision of the AMA had better change fast, just to remain relevant. The fast growing segment of small electrics is creating large numbers of pilots who have no need of a large field, and frankly, no need for the AMA. Much like a lot of slope flyers, and RC car drivers. Note, I did not say these pilots are any less disciplined or frequency aware than the average AMA pilot. I personally know of an informal group of pilots who only fly small electrics. They are more active and getting larger than the long established AMA soaring club I belong to. Many, but not all are AMA members. They are not an official AMA club. They are sport flyers, responsible, and a great bunch of guys. But they don't need the AMA, as they can fly on any 2-3 acres of open land. I wish I could offer a better vision for the future of the AMA. Frankly, I cannot. There is already a pressure within the AMA for different membership fees, based on percieved liability. Think jets, vs. DLG's. Dave Brown brought this up in the magazine sometime in the past year. No way the small electric flyers will join the AMA if all they do is fly 10-20 oz planes in school ballfields and neighborhood parks. Yet their numbers are tremendous. Yes the existing establishment within the AMA wouldn't stand for that kind of change. Perhaps, eventually, we may come to the state the Brits are in, as David Alchin pointed out. The BARCS, a separate umbrella organization just for soaring. But that's a different can of worms. :) I can't say wether a large umbrella (present AMA) or many small umbrellas would better the respective members of each. Jon Stone RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] An analogy (regarding Model Aviation magazine)
I've been thinking about the MA editor's response to my comments and come up with the following: If the editors of Chicago's newspapers adopted a similar policy, then articles regarding the recent World Series win of the Chicago White Sox would have ceased to appear before the Sunday editions following the night of their awesome win. Dana Flemming made a good point with his Super Bowl comparison. We still read about these events long, long after they occur. Jim Deck RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Model Aviation Editor's reply
Remember John that sadly the RC world and AMA world is much bigger than soaring alone. I agree that soaring pilots in general seem to compete more than our powered brethren. But at the power clubs I belong to it is a tiny group that competes. My local power club has 475 members. Something like 10 to 15 of us compete at anything, maybe. My other power club is about the same or less even. Look at giant scale planes. IMAA membership, which shuns competition to the point of writing it into their mission statement, has just under 10,000 members. IMAC, which exists for the sole purpose of competition, has 900 members. Of those 900 IMAC members only 500 compete in any given year. Simple fact is that AMA-wide most guys simply do not compete. Want a real hoot? Look at how many competed in which NATS events: Radio Control = 630 total Soaring = 151 (counts multiple event entries) Pattern = 113 Scale Aerobatics (IMAC) = 107 Pylon = 82 Control Line = 223 total (6 events) FREE FLIGHT = 348 !!! (nearly the same total as for soaring + pattern + IMAC) All totaled only 0.8% of AMA members entered at the NATS. The number is actually lower due to multiple entries. I liked the near real time NATS coverage. Hopefully it will expand and improve as time goes by. Why wait 3 to 4 months to get information you can get that very day?? Frankly, I'd be OK with the print mag going away. But that's just me, and you know how I am!! WEM John Erickson wrote: Wow, less than 5%? Sure isn't that number in our club, or the soaring clubs around Southern California. More like 50%, and in our club that number is higher. We use competitions as one way to fly together. These are not cut throat, yet they are competitive. I must be really out of touch with the rest of the AMA world, because less than 5% is a really small number. So for every twenty modelers only one flies competitively? RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Some Thoughts on AMA
My gut reaction to the well written suggestion is that the proposed changes would result in the splintering of the organization and the resultant arguments for turf and the dividing of the budget would result in it's demise. I believe that there is much greater strength as one association for all model aircraft disciplines than there would be in multiple associations for individual disciplines. I definitely fear that the suggested changes would cause such a breakup. I support the concept that the AMA is not working as well as it might currently, but I am not sure that the geographical regions concept is at the root of any problems. Most successful large national companies have a Regional structure within them. I think there needs to be more geographical responsibility and involvement for the individual disciplines. Reporting to the Regional VP should be small Committees (3-4 people?) for the various disciplines of the model aircraft hobby active in that region. The committees would coordinate activities and support the AMA members in their region involved in the individual disciplines. In todays wired world, communication between regions should be relatively effective. Members of the Regional committees could report to a National level Committee for their discipline. National decisions could be reached through coordination of the national committees. I would like to see an AMA Flying Field Acquisition Program started that would take a set amount of money from each annual dues ($5?) plus donations and use that money to acquire land in each region. That land could be leased to local AMA club(s) for $500 per year to cover AMA administration costs associated with the land management. Over a few decades all regions should have one or two flying fields that shouldn't be closed on them. I suspect we all wish that such a program had been started 20 years ago. Perhaps each AMA region should form an AMA Review Committee to review regional input on organization changes and pass that up to AMA HQ for membership vote. I do suspect that regional inputs will differ based on local regional perceived problems... that will need to be resolved at the national level and through voting. As to the future of the Nats - I think it would be brighter if it toured the Nation, perhaps using a future network of AMA flying fields. But that is an old issue that was resolved by centralized AMA thinking. I can't seem to locate a membership number in the AMA mag (I think it should be right up front with the list of officers, but I may have missed it.) but I suspect that the number of entrants in the Nats is a very small percentage of the membership and that a hard core number of entrants come from the AMA center of the universe area... year after year. If it were to move about the country I think more total members would attend and/or participate. My 2¢ Bob Goldsmith RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Model Aviation Editor's reply
Yes, the world outside of RC soaring is very different. The soaring world is pushed by technology and competition, while the typical power club is based on sport/fun flying. Take a Paragon from the late 1970's, a state of the art TD plane and compare that to the state of the art today. Night and day differences. (although many of the tasks are the same...ar!) Now look at what a typical glow sport plane, etc. looked like 30 years ago compared to today. Not much has changed here, but the guys still have fun making them fly. There are groups that pylon race Quickees and F1, and fly pattern, etc. but it's only a small percentage compared to all the sport, non-competitive flyers out there. It sounds like someone should did up the facts from the AMA on who is flying what so a constructive conversation can continue on. I personally will always be classified as a soaring pilot, although I started as a very little kid flying CL FF, and now fly glow, gasoline, electric, turbine, and gravity powered models. And sometimes I even get paid to fly them. ;-) Norm PBSS -Original Message- From: John Erickson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 2:15 PM To: Jim Deck; Soaring List Subject: Re: [RCSE] Model Aviation Editor's reply Wow, less than 5%? Sure isn't that number in our club, or the soaring clubs around Southern California. More like 50%, and in our club that number is higher. We use competitions as one way to fly together. These are not cut throat, yet they are competitive. I must be really out of touch with the rest of the AMA world, because less than 5% is a really small number. So for every twenty modelers only one flies competitively? JE -- Erickson Architects John R. Erickson, AIA The competitor is now in the minority in AMA. In fact, less than 5 percent of our membership compete in any manner at all. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Some Thoughts on AMA
The acquisition program was started 10-15 years ago in California but, it never came to about. I don't know definitely why. I wouldn't like to see a regional field paid for out of my dues. California is a long state, even if it was set up in the center of the state the majority of us would never use it, except for another club's contest, due to the distrance we would have to travel. Fresno is 170 miles from Sacramento and San Francisco and 250 miles from LA. I would like to see an AMA Flying Field Acquisition Program started that would take a set amount of money from each annual dues ($5?) plus donations and use that money to acquire land in each region. That land could be leased to local AMA club(s) for $500 per year to cover AMA administration costs associated with the land management. Over a few decades all regions should have one or two flying fields that shouldn't be closed on them. I suspect we all wish that such a program had been started 20 years ago. My 2¢ Bob Goldsmith George Meyers Fresno, California RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] ISO manuals for Dodgson Windsong
Looks like the free new-old glider I got is indeed a Windsong. If anybody knows where I can get a look at a PDF or plain text copy of the manuals for one, I'd appreciate it. It's in pretty good shape for being around 20 years old and kept lord knows where. The H stab pivot is a little bollixed up, binds a bit and looks like it was sloppily field-repaired with scabs of raw balsa hotstuffed on the outsides, needs to be pulled and re-done, the rudder is very weak, it's only hinged on one side, with an internal hidden linkage in the bottom that gives very little resistance to the airstream, lets the rudder flop about and not have much authority. The fuse just needs come cleaning, sanding/filling, and paint. Perfect winter project. And a canopy: If I can find a picture or drawing of the canopy, full-size, it would help me build a replacement. The wings are in remarkably good shape: a going-over with the monokote iron and they are good to go. The linkages for flaps (ingenious) and the ailerons seem to be smooth with good action, so I'll throw some 12-dollar full-sized, high-torque servos on those and see what happens. I have an old gold Aristocraft 720 radio from the 80's with electronic flap-elevator mix that should fit this bird pertty well. Might as well go retro all the way, huh? ;-) I figure about 40 bucks in servos and etc. and I'll have this thing ready to go! Now I've just got to find about ten acres to fly if over while I figure it out;-) Did I mention this sucker is BIG? It's wingspan is wider than my garage door! Whee! Anybody with manuals they could scan and e-mail me, please let me know. Thanks! -mark RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Model Aviation Editor's reply
On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 02:33:12PM -0800, Norman E. Timbs, Jr. wrote: | Yes, the world outside of RC soaring is very different. The soaring | world is pushed by technology and competition, while the typical | power club is based on sport/fun flying. There are powered plane competitions too, and they're just as `pushed' by technology as the soaring world. And most soaring pilots don't compete, just like most powered pilots don't compete. | Take a Paragon from the late 1970's, a state of the art TD plane and | compare that to the state of the art today. Night and day | differences. What's so different? It's probably lighter and stronger. Perhaps bigger. More servos, maybe. Perhaps it has a vario in it, and a more modern receiver. Perhaps the new model was an ARF, and your old plane a kit. But I don't see any _fundamental_ differences. You still need to get it up there somehow. You still need to `read' it to find lift (though the vario may change that somewhat.) And really, the `state of the art' powered planes have changed similarly. The engines on glow planes may not have changed much (though gas as opposed to glow is a lot more popular on the big planes than it used to be), but the rest of the planes have changed just as much as the rest of the plane in the glider world. | Now look at what a typical glow sport plane But you're already pigeon-holing the `powered sport planes' by saying `glow'. What about the electrics? Electrics are entering the powered plane competitions now, and doing well! You're also pigeon-holed them by saying `powered plane clubs'. Park fliers don't even need clubs or dedicated fields -- just go and fly them wherever. This is a far more fundamental change in the hobby than any improvements we've seen in glider construction. Or the recent trend towards ARFs -- that is quite apparant both in the gliding and powered models. Another fundamental change in the hobby. | etc. looked like 30 years ago compared to today. Not much has | changed here I disagree. I think the changes to the gliders are relatively minor in the grand scheme of thing, and similar minor changes have been made to powered planes. (However, as mentioned before, electrics and ARFs coming of age, those are pretty major changes.) Give it 10 or 20 more years ... we may be whining about gas/glow coverage in the AMA magazine, lumping it with free flight and control line as things that `nobody does anymore'. (Though of course it still won't be quite true.) | but the guys still have fun making them fly. Well, hopefully EVERYBODY is having fun making their chosen planes fly. If not, why bother? | There are groups that pylon race Quickees and F1, and fly pattern, | etc. but it's only a small percentage compared to all the sport, | non-competitive flyers out there. And the same is true of soaring pilots. Certainly, I know far more soaring pilots that don't compete than who do compete. (I've competed in a few fun-flys. They were sanctioned AMA events. Does that count?) The (vocal?) members of this list are not representative of the soaring community -- this list tends to attract people who compete. But only a very small percentage of the community is a member of this list. -- Doug McLaren, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mankind has a perfect record in aviation; we never left one up there! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Some Thoughts on AMA
As Tim stated, History is everything sometimes and it is here. Just take a good look at the rule book and tell me whan the last time that was really orgainzed correctly. More to come later. Marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: Re: [RCSE] Nats Issue and AMA ED
Well Jeff, I guess since I never fly there I do not know what I am talking about. I have never flown the 6x6 in any club event that MIST has had that I was there for in a number of years. The only event we fly the 6x6 is our OVSS Fall Round Up other than the Nats and hopefully the team trials again. Not even the MIST RES contest and Ray Hayes' Woodcrafters is there. Ya, if you trust going up to the 6x6 and leaving frequency control to the unknown with $1500- $2000 in the air, then go, but I think that this is what the prudent folks do on the IAC. Sometimes, what you are told by someone is not the practice by the majority. Marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Model Aviation Editor's reply
Bob Hunt is a nice guy, and a real good guy to work for... BUT... interesting he should say that. In this very Nats issue he still managed to get 8 pages of detailed CL competition with full color pictures. CL is always going to get main stream coverage because he likes CL. Life is not fair, and that's the way it is. The problem for the way they want to cover the Nats is that there is no time for a soaring pilot to do that type of coverage. I don't know how it is for the other events, but we get there early, fly all day, catch some dinner with a group of friends, and you are too tired to do anything else. Try reviewing all the days pictures, pick the 4 or 5 best, and try to write something positive after having very intense contest days. It's hard to reflect that much each night after the intense contest mindset all day, I tried it... I'll never do that again. My contest scores also reflected this schedule, repeat, I'll never do that again. I can write an excellent article after I get home, unwind, look at all the pix, and think about all the good things that we experienced together, but not johnny on the spot in Muncie. Good Luck to anyone that wants to try that next year. At 03:17 PM 11/1/2005, Jim Deck wrote: The competitor is now in the minority in AMA. In fact, less than 5 percent of our membership compete in any manner at all. We simply cannot justify devoting all of 1/12 of our yearly editorial pages to just one meet - even if it is the Nats. The daily reporting concept gives up to the minute news and it will continue to be how we report on the Nats. Hopefully next year's Nats overview in Model Aviation will be written from a more acceptable perspective. We are trying to adjust our magazine coverage to reflect the actual membership and their interests. Tough job... Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Some Thoughts on AMA
George L Meyers wrote: The acquisition program was started 10-15 years ago in California but, it never came to about. I don't know definitely why. The District X Regional Flying Site proposed for Visalia, CA died due to environmental concerns on the part of Fish and Wildlife. Seems that some backhoe tracks formed a potential habitat for a small fish last seen 150 miles away in the Sierra. End of that story. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Windsong Manuals
Mark, yesterday I picked up a NIB Saratoga Windsong (Shipped from Dodgson in Dec 1982 - still in perfect condition and I don't believe any of the pieces other than instructions have been outside the box). So I just happen to have the building instructions and a Dodgson products flyer sitting on my desk today. If you'll send me a fax number or an address for copies I'll be happy to send some your direction. Typical Bob Dodgson there is enough information to build and set up the plane but for full understanding (and added confusion to some) it takes both plans and instructions. If you need additional help after seeing the instructions - let me know and I'll see if I can help. [EMAIL PROTECTED] aka: wifeswarrior Ok to call direct to my desk (541)431-3044. If I don't answer have me paged. Ken Eaton Scheduler 541.342.1201 x332 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Some Thoughts on Soaring!
Stopped in Buffalo today after a rainy day of demoing beach cleaners in Toronto (yeah I sold some :-)... In any case after gorging on Buffalo wings and Killians, I met up with Kurt from Niagrafrontier Models to take custody of a brand new F5J ship, the Pulsar 2005. This is a 78" organic construction ship with a unique plug in nose cone. The only thing that is not in the nose are the rudder and elevator servos, they stay with the back part of the fuse and the tail boom. This is an xtail ship that packs into a really small case, and battery changes are a snap. This thing is sooo light that it needs a wooden case to keep in on the ground when its apart. Kurt is a great guy, a working stiff like the rest of us, who enjoys supplying and flying F5J stuff. He really knows this part of the hobby and from the past years results, the Pulsar line has proven itself worth dealing. For you guys who love to complain about the hobby and its suppliers, don't bother with Kurt, he'll disappoint you with friendly, interested service. :-) For the others who have been thinking about getting involved in F5J Speed 400 competitons, take a look. The Poly Pulsar has been the most popular because of its ease to thermal, but if you want the challenge of full control (like I do) the 2005 is the way to go. http://www.nfmodels.com/contact.html Gordylouisville or bust!
[RCSE] Stylus For Sale $250 shipped!
Stylus with: Glider Card 50 Model Memory Card 1650mAh battery pack Ch 39 Module Ch 35 Module 92185 PCM Rx (Ch 39) Neck Strap DSC Cord All Manuals I bought this transmitter new in 2001 and have kept it in a case when I'm not using it to fly. It's in excellent condition with two exceptions. The antenna has a very small kink toward the base but still extends and retracts fully. The lever that ejects the cards stopped working two weeks ago. The Rx works fine and has the old style plugs. The antenna was shortened and soldered to an integral antenna in a fuselage. I've since put the antenna back to the stock length and flown it several times. $250 for everything shipped CONUS Mike Las Vegas, NV RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] An apology
It was bad form of me to post part of a private reply w/o the permission of the editor of Model Aviation regardless of my good intentions. I apologize to the RCSE forum for my bad behavior and the poor example it sets. Jim Deck RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] JR Tx Module For Sale
Brand new Ch43 Tx Module. $25 Shipped Mike Las Vegas, NV RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Model Aviation Editor's reply
On the other hand John, I belong to three clubs in my area and don't believe that any of the members are competitors in any events of any type. Fred -Original Message- From: John Erickson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:15 PM To: Jim Deck; Soaring List Subject: Re: [RCSE] Model Aviation Editor's reply Wow, less than 5%? Sure isn't that number in our club, or the soaring clubs around Southern California. More like 50%, and in our club that number is higher. We use competitions as one way to fly together. These are not cut throat, yet they are competitive. I must be really out of touch with the rest of the AMA world, because less than 5% is a really small number. So for every twenty modelers only one flies competitively? JE -- Erickson Architects John R. Erickson, AIA The competitor is now in the minority in AMA. In fact, less than 5 percent of our membership compete in any manner at all. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] JR Tx Module SOLD
As always, thank you RCSE! Mike RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
