Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?
So for DP and JW to beat us, they would have the shortest time on the tow, and a hunski landing. The TD portion would bury those that did not get their time. I predict some folks might stress the equipment in order to gain advantage. AMA TD rules have the CD responsible for the launch equipment. If you think there are line break issues now, wait till a speedy as well as high launch becomes the strategy. Not saying it's bad or good, just that's how I would play by those rules. F3J requires you to bring your own launch equipment. If you break a line, or sprain a linebacker towman, it's your issue, not the CD's. WinchDoc ...back to lurking... -- Original message -- From: Craig Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] After watching the World F3J I had an idea for a contest... Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD format. You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write that time down on your card... For example if it were a 10 min task and you towed for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you flew a perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it was a 6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would throw more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest Suggestions ? Comments? Craig
[RCSE] Real Balls available again!
Just a quick note to let you all know that I have a few sets of Real Balls available. $300 shipped. Personal check or MO Payable to: Douglass Boyd 1740 SW Pheasant Dr Beaverton, OR 97006 I can also do PayPal+3% Thanks for looking! WinchDoc
[RCSE] Ballast mold
One ballast mold left out of this batch. After this ther aint no more. $65 shipped in CONUS Here's a link to description and pix: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=798390 Thanks for looking! WinchDoc
[RCSE] WTS: Ballast slug mold
Hey all, I've been flying slope a lot lately, and as a result, I have been making a few slope related items. One such item is a ballast slug mold. I know nobody in their right mind would want to ballast a TD plane, so this is mostly for you slopers... I built a batch of these and have a few left over in case anyone here is interested in getting one. It's a 2 x 4 x 1-1/2 aluminum block with various size holes bored thru it, with troughs on the sides. 7 holes total, you can cast: 11mm 0.433 12mm 0.472 14mm 0.551 15mm 0.590 18mm 0.708 19mm 0.748 20mm 0.787 I will also put the slots in the edges for pouring 1/8 and 1/4 thick strips. Comes with a plate to close the troughs for pouring. Check these links for pix: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=798390 http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=780596 Thanks for looking! WinchDoc
Re: [RCSE] Benchmark Sailplanes
Skeeter...
[RCSE] Last set of Real Balls sold
Thanks for looking! Winchdoc
[RCSE] One set Real Balls left
I just wanted to let you all know I have one set of "Real Balls" left from this batch. Maybe I can knock someone off the fence that has been thinking about getting a set. "Real Balls" are $300 a set shipped in the CONUS. There is a mini how-to online at: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5870797postcount=1 Thanks for looking. Doug
Re: [RCSE] RealBalls...
I am he of who he speaks I have an abbreviated webpage at monkeytumble.com and "Real Balls" are currently IN STOCK! Douglass Boyd -- Original message -- From: -Les [EMAIL PROTECTED] OK, who is it that makes the Realballs for winchesDoug Boyd? Anyone have a web site reference or e-mail -Les Grammer -NWSSRCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Mark Smith at the Masters
I was at an SC2 contest in the mid '70's and they had a format that included a round of speed. Mark was flying a Windfree, as usual. I was hanging out in the pits wherea guy was putting a pound of lead in his Craft-Air Windrifter in anticipation of the speed run. Mark was there as well, and watched this guy loading up his plane. Mark reaches into his pocket, and pulls out a chunk of lead about 1/2 the size of a Las Vegas Dice, and says, "Well I better go ballast my plane, too." He won the speed round. WinchDoc
[RCSE] Real Balls are shipping now
I want to say thanks to everyone that has sent in an order, your "Real Balls" are on the way even as we speak. (except those that wanted delayed shipping) I currently have "Real Balls" in stock and ready for immediate shipment. If you bought one of the surplus winches from the AMA, you might want to get a set of "Real Balls" to bring it back up to spec. If you have been thinking about getting a set of ball bearing endplates to fit your Ford Longshaft winch motor, now is the time to get your order in while there is NO WAITING LIST. Thanks for looking, WinchDoc
[RCSE] Real Balls available now!
"Real Balls" Ball bearing endcaps for the Ford Longshaft starter motor are available now. Lots of folks have been waiting for me to get a batch out. Well now's the time! These have the Gold anodized finned brush cap, adjustable timing, and grease fittings for easy annual maintnance. If you have wanted a set for your winch, now is the time to place an order.Price is $300 shipped in the CONUS. I'm not sure how long they will remain in stock. They sell out pretty quickly, and I'll be working on some other projectsafter this (kitchen remodel) so it may be a while before I get another batch in the works.Personal check or MO Payable to:Douglass Boyd1740 SW Pheasant DrBeaverton, OR97006
[RCSE] Real Balls update
I have had some difficulty in getting the CNC lathe work done on the "Real Balls" finned brushcap. I don't really want to make them without the trademark fins. Good news, I have it that the lathe work for the finned brushcaps will be started this week. This means that I will be shipping gold anodized"Real Balls" by the end of July. Those of you that are on the "I want Real Balls" list will have first crack at them. I will be sending out an announcement when I'm ready for you to send $$$ very soon. I excited about getting a new batch of "RB" out to you all! I might even have to go fly TD again, as I've been mostly hanging out on the slopes these days. Now, where did I stash that ICON? Thanks for your patience Doug Boyd
Re: [RCSE] First Plane
I saw Darwin's Lil T out at the 'Dust Bowl' flying site north of Phx. That spot is probably a shopping mall now. My first sailplane was a 12ft "Bong Boomer" designed by Maynard Hill for altitude records. It had a HUGE stick built fuselage that could hold a gallon can of fuel. I had a small 2oz tank on mine and flew it with a Mcoy .19 motor. Maybe Darwin remembers my hat? Doc -- Original message -- From: "Darwin N. Barrie" [EMAIL PROTECTED] First sailplane was a Midwest Lil T as well. Had an .049 on the front and flew hundreds of times when I was 10 years old. Had a park near my house and would fly almost everyday. Later put an OS 10 on it. Lost it later when the radio switch failed.Have always had a sailplane in the fleet. DArwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ - Original Message - From: Mike Fox To: Soaring@airage.com Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 2:00 PM Subject: [RCSE] First Plane First Sailplane was a Midwest lil' T. Highly modified of course. Before that we were flying these Foam planes you can buy at k-mart for kids. Put twoservos in them (Rudder Elevator) a Cox TD 020 power pod on top. Proformance Sucked, but we were soaring. Mike Fox
[RCSE] Paging Mart Falarski
Ping me ASAP!!! your perscription is ready Doc
[RCSE] Real Balls available soon...
I know a lot of folks have been waiting patiently for "Real Balls" ball bearing endplates to become available again. I will be starting a big batch o' "balls" in about 3 weeks. What I need to know is HOW MANY to make. If you want a set of "Real Balls" now would be a good time to let me know. They will be $300.00/set including shipping, and will have the finned brushcap GOLD anodized for extra cool pit racing beauty. I don't want any $$$ yet, just a firm, "By Jingos, I want a set!" from you. As soon as I get close, I'll hit you up for the money. I'm making my build list now, so if you're interested, send me an E-mail titled: "I want "Real Balls" with your contact info, and how many sets you want. now go fly something... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] need source for winch turnarounds
I have a few left in stock, they are $75 each shipped. I just sent a batch to Tom Copp (Mr. F3X.com) and he will have them for sale at Visalia. Come and Get 'em!!! (free plug for ya TC) These pulleys work well with braided line ormonofilament, as they have a larger diameter sheave than other pulleys. This means the mono dosen't have to bend around such a small radius, and the bearing RPM is lower for any given line speed. The only downside is that you can't pull the chute thru the pulley at the end of the day. If you absolutely HAVE to be able to pull the chute thru your turnaround, Tim Mcann's pulley will allow this. I just never saw it as a big requirement, as you have to go up there and get the pulley at the end of the day anyway, and clanging the chute thru the turnaround is a good way to bugger the pulley, and over stress the chute. IMHO, the larger diameter far outweighs the chute clearance thing. WinchDoc what is the best winch turnaround? and where do i get it? thanks for ur help bob
[RCSE] paging Chris Corven
Chris, Please ping me back! WinchDoc
[RCSE] calling Glauco Lago, Cliff Bryan
Please ping me back.
Re: [RCSE] anybody seen the winchdoc?
Try [EMAIL PROTECTED] and it's a hut in the woods, not a jungle. mostly need to be wary of alien abduction, not pythons. -- Original message -- I tried to ping him through the email link on his website http://www.monkeytumble.com/winchdoc/index.htm and it comes right back...I am worried for his safety, what with him living in the jungle and all Anybody have an alternate email for him? TIA Mark Montreal-- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.1 - Release Date: 2005-04-01 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Continuous Loop Winch?
I remember an article in Model Builder or RCM many years ago where they did a setup like that. The major problem to solve was the extra line drag on the ground. This was waaay back before Rahm was making winches, and before retrievers were in widespread use. Doc
[RCSE] Where is the WinchDoctor?
Where is the WinchDoctor? a. abducted by aliens again. b. computer P.M.S. c. promotion at work leaves no leftover time d. all of the above Hey folks, I'm not really trying to ignore anyone. My day job has been pretty hectic as I have new duties and I've been busy getting things spun up. I will not be able to respond to individual email for a week or so. Turnarounds: out of stock for now I will be working on turnarounds before Christmas, but I do not expect to get them back from anodizing before the first of the year. "Real Balls" out of stock for now I will be starting a batch o' balls in January, and I'll put a post when they are ready. WinchDoctor Winches: Everyone that has alreadypaid money or traded goods will get winches right after the first of the year. I am postponing any new winch production for a while. I am currently evaluating design features on the WDW, and I will be incorporating them in future builds. The winch works well as it is, but I know it can be better. I also want to develop an F3B winch.But thenthere's that nasty old work thing, and I never know when those aliens will come around again looking for me. I have several other projects in the works, but the backburner is getting pretty full. I did get out to the slope last weekend (first time in months)to maiden my Wizard Compact BPVX. What a sweet flying plane! No bad habits, almost boring to fly, (not boring, but easy). Yeah, Bozo, I deserve this one. WinchDoc d. all of the above...
[RCSE] Paging CHRIS CORVEN
Chris, I need to hear from you right away. WinchDoc
Re: [RCSE] Hitec 5125 digi wing servos
I have the 5125's in my NYX on the ailerons, and my Stratos SR ailerons. They work great, no problems so far. Graig Greening makes some really nice mounts for DS368 as well as the Hitec 5125 flat servos. I can make my own mounts for the flatties, but I bought some of the DS368 mounts, and I like them just fine. It really chaps me the wrong way to saw lugs off a $70 servo and glue it in. I also like Harley's hat brackets as well, but ya gotta make 'em yerself. (Harley is a REAL modeler) WinchDoc Snowed in in the hut this week... RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] special balloons for seaming fiberglass fuselages.
Harley, I've used some that have some sort of release agent allready applied. The dry ones work better for fuselages. Rolled in a foil packet I'ts great fun asking the guy at the pharmacy for THE REALLY BIG ONES };^)~ Doug. Ages back when I fiddled with glass fuselages, one method of seaming the two halves taped together was to use long balloons to slip inside to expand and press against the interior. They were good quality, not toy balloons. I suspect they had some medical application. Do you know of the application and possible source of such balloons? RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Real Balls BLEM $200
I have 1 set of Real Balls that has a small cosmetic flaw, (the grease fitting is not dead nuts in the center of the finned brushcap) everything else is made to spec. The front plate is perfect. BUUt, for this minor imperfection, I'll sell this set for $200 shipped in the CONUS. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Real Balls for the Bag Lady
I just sent Al Bag Lady Wedworth a set of Real Balls for his winch. So now, the Bag Lady will have Real Balls... If he offers to show them to you and he's wearing that kilt... be afraid, be verry afraid!!! WinchDoc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] F3J pulleys on WinchDoctor's website
My personal webmaster Elvis, has added some pix of the F3B-F3J turnaround See it at: http://www.monkeytumble.com/winchdoc/ THankyou verrry much RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] F3J Pulleys IN STOCK (blatent plug)
The ol' WinchDoctor has his F3J/F3B pulleys ready to ship. Look for pix on the website soon. Lightweight CNC machined aluminum anodized bitchen' Blood Red. Large diameter ball bearing pulley for lower bearing speed at high line speeds. Swings open to let line in/out. Comes with quick pin for F3J use, and 1/4-20 bolt and chain for F3B use. $75 shipped in CONUS Thanks for looking Doc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] XICA fuselage 4 sale
I have a Xica fuse for sale. It has my rev1 wingeron hardware already installed, a ballast box, aluminum stab bellcrank, and molded CF split rudder speed brake. It is brick house strong. I probably will never get to using it . If you don't know what a Xica is, you probably don't want one. $75 + shipping Some pix of the split rudder on my website: http://www.monkeytumble.com/winchdoc/othercreations.htm (The Xica is a big-air slope rocket designed by Ken Stuhr a while back. It features wingerons, flying stab, and usually no rudder. Known to be really darn fast on the front side.) Doc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Winch one-way bearing/sprag clutch
One simple way to do this is to use a bicycle sprocket and a length of drive chain to engage or disengage it. There are more elegant or elaborate methods, but the sprocket thing does work. WinchDoc All; Curious about trying to convert my FLS equipped winch into something more like an F3B-type winch, wherein the drum is driven by the motor, but prevented from paying out line under tension. It seems that most of the dedicated F3B winches employ some sort of sprag clutch or one-way bearing which can be disengaged so that line can be pulled off the drum for the next launch. Having never had the opportunity to tear into one, can someone lend some insight into how these are engineered, and what hardware is used? My FLS-based winch has an F3B style drum on it (not the traditional AMA-style drum) which is supported at both ends. The drum itself has a shaft which extends from the far end, and is supported by a bearing; this may provide me the opportunity to replace the existing bearing with a one-way bearing if I can develop an understanding of how they are installed, and how they can be overidden. Thanks all Dave RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Bandsaw blade how tight?
I tighten mine to B sharp not even April yet!! Question: How tight should I keep the blade? Best answer I've heard so far was until it makes a D-flat sound when you pluck it. But it seems there is little consensus on this. So far I've been keeping it quite loose and just babying the heck out of it. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE]
If I have a choice between a 3115 winch motor with a shunt and one without, which do I want and why?? Thanks..Brian The shunt coil is a smaller third coil found in the #3115 motor. It is a rev limiter of sorts. It does not do much at the speeds we run our winches. I usually snip the lead, and ignore it. Don't bother trying to remove the coil, as the pole shoes are torqued in by that MONGO fella. WinchDoc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Vulcan plans GOT EM THANKS
Thanks to everyone that responded. Winchdoc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] STM Slope Pilot ID Guide
Cousin Dieter said: The Mr. Unpretentious type is rare, but it does exist. I suppose they fly unobtainium airplanes, ya? Cuzzin Duggy RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] What is a good black stain for bottom of wing.
I have used india ink in a cheapo airbrush to do obeechi. Weighs almost nothing. Works best if you spray it indoors over white carpet. WinchDoc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] Who sells winches?
Hey Doc, What do I ask for when I go to the car parts place to ask for a 6 volt long shaft ford motor. I tell them the Lester # 3110 number and they just give me a strange look and say huh? Do you know what model and year auto the 6v went on? Tell him a pre 1956 straight six. Tell him you are restoring an old truck you found in your uncle's chicken coop under a bunch of tarps. Make sure you mention that it still had the origonal window sticker on it. Then watch him drool. Does the six volter have a shunt coil? NO the six volt field coils have just 2 sets of windings. Be advised, that there is also a 12V motor that has no shunt, but the windings are thinner (0.032) on the 12v coils than the thicker (0.062)6V fields. BTW for a humorous, non-technical dissertation on winch motors, etc, read In Search of the 12V winch on my website at: http://www.monkeytumble.com/winchdoc/12VoltWinch.htm Does cutting the shunt coil lose help the speed of the motors? In therory, yes. At the speeds that we run our motors when we launch, no. My batteries seems to take a premature dump! I only get about 12 launches and the motors start to moan, both retrieve and launch. Could my cables be inadequate? Do the cables get warm? Bigger is better on battery cables. Use #2 or bigger for your cables. There could be a lot of things going on here, but if it is happening on both your retriever and winch, I would look at the batteries themselves. Borrow some other batteries and experiment. Brushes go bad and affect performance as well, but rarely do they crap out on the winch and retriever at exactly the same time. Is there any advantage to running two six volt batteries in series like the Davis guys do? In batteries, the general rule is more mass equals more capacity. Two huge 6V batteries have more capacity than one 12V battery. The 2 6V batteries is a great setup, but most folks don't want to mess with that. That should give me more capacity right? I test the batteries right off the charger and I read 14 volts with the 12 volters and about 7.5 with the sixers. Is this normal? A freshly charged battery will always show more voltage right off the charger. Apply a launching load to it and it will drop down to normal. P.S. What is the current price of Real Balls. Are the balls on both end plates or just the one? There are ball bearings in the front plate as well as the back plate. Real Balls are dimensionally the same as the stock plates. Simply take off the old ones and bolt on the performance. Real Balls Ball Bearing end plates are $250/ set plus shipping. Bad news is they are currently OUT OF STOCK BUT I will have more on the way soon. I will make a post when they are available. If you want to get on a waiting list, send me an E-mail with I WANT REAL BALLS in the title block. Put your shipping address and how many sets you want in th main body. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Re: winch problem
Hey John, I sounds like trouble in the brush area for sure. We are pretty rough on our motors, we push 12V thru a 6V motor, then we power retrieve for the next launch. This puts a lot of electrical as well as mechanical wear on the brushes and commutator. I change out brushes every season, same time I swap out the solenoids. There are 2 bare brushes, (grounded) and 2 insulated brushes (12V+) in your motor. Check to see which one got toasted. I recently repaired a club winch that had the brushes worn down so much that the brush spring that holds the brush in contact with the commutator had bottomed out and the brush was free to rattle around. This winch was seriously bogging down, and even sparking in that area. In fact, the brushes had unevenly worn down SO much at an angle that one had worn down to a point. The commutator was scarred up from the arcing. This arcing also can ruin the brush spring's temper, and they can then snap in half. (bad thing) To get this winch back up and working right, I replaced the brushes and brush springs.I replaced the armature as well. Now everything is good as new. Now the bad part... Sometimes the field coils can have a short in them, and this is really hard to find. The fix for that is to remove the motor body and have the coils changed out. I don't even mess with removing the field coils. They are torqued in by this big guy called MONGO, and they use a special square end tool that fits the pole shoe screws. You will see that some of them show attempts of removal, and they get pretty ugly. 8^( Here's what I want you to do: take a couple of digital snaps of the affected area and shoot them off to me, I will see if there is anything else going on. Most likely, you can get away with just changing out the brushes and springs, if the arcing and frying did not go too far. WARNING SHAMELESS PLUG FOLLOWS I have the brushes available, $10 a set. I also have a tune up kit that includes the brushes, new brush springs, and a special tool to align the brush holders for $25. Doc Doc , I've got a sick winch . To date I've never had a problem with it other than brush changes and the like. I put that down to regular maintenance . Yesterday, On launch, The winch started to bog . (it never bogs !!) I put it down to maybe a low battery / bad battery connection. On the next launch ... Same thing . I looked at the winch and it had smoke coming from the brush/commutator area . On inspection, I found the wires that attach to one of the bushes fried through . What I think happened is that it shorted against the case , But then I've been known to be wrong before ;0 Should I take it to a repair shop to be sure. Or is there anything I can check myself ? All the best , John McCloskey RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] model airplane business
Easy... All you have to do is start out with 80K-100K a year... Just out of curiosity does anyone know if you could make it in the model airplane industry? 30k-50k / year. what kind of volumn does zagi do? _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] Is wingeron - pitcheron possible with dihedral wing?
I have flown a few different pitcheron planes, and also crashed almost as many, so I am somewhat qualified to ramble on this subject. Most of the successful pitcheron airplanes use airfoils with very low pitching moment. What this means is that they tend to be more on the semisymetrical side rather than really cambered. (like the Hobie) when you change the angle of attack up and down like you will on a pitcheron flight, there is a lot of extra drag that comes from these changes. This is where ppitcherons get the reputation of stalling really bad at slow speeds and high AOA. I have never flown a pitcheron with polyhedral, but I have seen the pix of the Elf. I would be curious how much extra yaw gets introduced when you twist 'em up. If it were MY hobie hawk, I would resist the urge to modify it, and keep it more or less stock, just my opinion. There are much better pitcherons already out there that you could get now. But, I also understand the can't leave well enough alone syndrome. We do what we feel like. Good luck Winchdoc A dude named Harris Nelson can be contacted through http://www.northcountyflyingmachines.com He made a ship called the Elf that was a pitcheron polyhedral. Take a look at http://www.northcountyflyingmachines.com/history.htm down at the bottom for his composite ships. I'm developing an unhealthy fascination with his Shrike. -J On Thu, 23 May 2002, Brian Joder - OUTBOUND Ind. wrote: Hello all, Question for you aerodynamic geniuses out there: What problems would I face if I converted a rudder/elevator ship to a rudder/elevator/wingeron ship - with a wing that has dihedral? In my scenario, lets assume the wingeron/pitcheron hardware that rotates the wings works perfectly - no binding, no slop. The real question I have is the wing I want to use has built in dihedral starting about 1/3 of the way out - will this dihedral cause handling problems, or is the airfoil more critical? Why go to this trouble you ask? Because it's interesting!??... and this wing will not accept ailerons! Any takers on this one? (OK - it's a Hobie Hawk I'm talking about - there, I said it!) B-man http://www.hobiehawkinfo.com __ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] Ford long shaft ID
I just got a rebuilt Ford long shaft starter motor (5.75) from one of the RCSE members. He thought it was a 3110 but was not 100% sure and there are absolutely no numbers on the unit. Is there someway I can positively identify which motor this really is? Those FLS motors have been rebuilt more times than my old Harley, and the only way I know od to tell for sure is to look inside at the field coils. The armatures are the same for #3110 #3115, so the field coils are the only wat to tell. Measure the thickness of the field coil 'wire' (the wires are actually flat copper) If they mic out at 0.062 (1/16) or more, you have the #3110 AKA 6V coils. The #3115 (12V) coils are around half that thickness, 0.032 For a humorous, non-technical dissertation on field coils, read In Search of the Twelve-Volt Winch on my website http://www.monkeytumble.com/winchdoc/articles.htm Hope this helps, Winchdoc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] FOR SALE RnR milennium
For Sale RnR Milennium V-tail kit white on top red on bottom. No time to finish Wings are NIB, Fuselage is completly finished and set up for Volz micromaxx servos (not included, but negotiable) including CF pushrods All the difficult stuff for the V-tail has been done with CNC machined jigs and fixtures. You cut out ailerons/flaps and servo holes and install wing servos. RnR price is $875 buy mine for $600 + shipping Pix available Winchdoc
[RCSE] The rule of thumb for bandsaws
I just got a new bandsaw. It's a cheapo made in China but the price was right. What are the rules of thumb regarding blade tension? HA HA HA I get it, rule of thumb, bandsaw The rule of thumb for bandsaws is, KEEP YOUR THUMBS OUT OF THE BANDSAW Bandsaw tension depends on the composition and pitch of the blade, and what material you are cutting. More tension will prematurely wear the bearings on a cheapo bandsaw. I would start out tight, run it for a few seconds and back off the tension and listen to it. You will find a spot where it is tight, but makes a 'better sound' . I have seen the ol' winch doctor give it a thunk, and tune it like a guitar string. (not running) I forget what key he tuned it to, tho. Doug RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Mallory Metal
15 years or so ago, in my handgun speed shooting days, I became friends with an ex-race car mechanic (Jim Wizard Ward for you car freaks from the 60s) who would make barrel weights for his guns out of what he called 'Mallory Metal'. I didn't pay a whole lot of attention, as the resulting weight was far too much for my taste, and I never figured out what it really was, but Holy Hernia, Batman! Was that stuff heavy...'course he had access to a machine shop and who knows how hard it was to tool. Mallory metal is one of the tungsten alloys used for counterweights, etc. http://www.cmwinc.com/cmwmet.htm Get your money out, it ain't cheap. At least it is not as hard to work as say, Tungsten carbide which requires diamond abrasives and lots of shop time to cut up. Doc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] E-mail blocking works great! thanks!
Thanks for all the help with the e-mail blocking feature! Doc
[RCSE] Not a NEW Product...
"Real Balls" are back in stock. Those that have had back orders for "Real Balls", your stuff will ship before Christmas. I will be taking orders for WinchDoctor winches after the first of the year. If you don't know whar "Real Balls" are, ask Jack Strother what he thinks of them. WinchDoc
[RCSE] WinchDoctor Website
The old "free" website went bye-bye. I have been pretty busy building winch parts. I don't have the time/inclination to fool around with websites, but my close personal friend, ELVIS is now maintaing my website. He and I will be updating it as soon as I get all the new pix to him. new website:http://www.monkeytumble.com/winchdoc/ Folks have asked about prices and availability: Complete Winch Doctor Winch: $900.00 includes turnaround, foorswitch wiring,just needs line, 'chute. shipped FOB Portland OR "Real Balls" bearing plates replace stock ones exactly $200.00 fits Tim Mcann's winch kit, Rahm, etc. "Real Balls" will be ready about mid January. "Savage Drums" winch drums $200.00 Winch Doctor Winch kit: includes "Real Balls" "Savage Drums" brake assy,frame. No footswitch or turnaround, no motor or wiring $450.00 The bad news is that they are not yet ready. I will make a post when they will be available. Doug
[RCSE] WinchDoctor's short course on Batteries
It was raining pretty good last night here in the Pacific Northwet, and I decided to pay a visit to the Winch doctor's hut in the woods. He was busy in his secret underground machine shop working on some secret project, and told me, "Sorry, eyes only. Need-to-know basis only, you know what I mean..." then he winked, and said "You'll find out soon enough, it will revolutionize everything! Too bad they stole my motorized scooter idea.." He was starting to rant, and I wanted to distract him So I asked , "Hey doc, what sort of battery should I get to run my winch? He held up his thumb, squinted at it, and read from some really tiny print, Rule O' Thumb regarding winch batteries: 1 Size matters. Get the biggest, heaviest battery that you are willing to carry from the car to the launch zone. At least it should weigh the same as your winch, so when you carry them both, your arms will have a balanced load, and you won't walk in a wide circle... 2 If you can get someone else to carry it, disregard the above. 3 The F3B folks have specific limits, namely, "275 Amperes, DIN, or 310 Amperes IEC, or 460 Amperes SAE, OR 455 Amperes EN, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera..." 4 If you are going to fly all day with no charger on backup feed, I suggest deep-cycle marine type. These are rated in "minutes of reserve" 5 Regular 'car batteries' (usually rated in CCA) work great if they are freshly charged, or kept on backup feed. They really suffer if you suck 'em down low, but they can dump the current faster for snappier launches. Oops, I think I wasn't supposed to tell youthat..." I asked him about what brand I should get, and he tells me "If your LongShaft has "Real Balls", you need a big Trojan." "Yeah, I know," I said, "I get that all the time..." "I mean your winch motor, Mr. gutter-mind!" He scowled at me,"Trojan batteries, in the maroon case." "I wish they'd pay me to say that, but NOO! To think how many sales I've sent their way, they would toss me a free battery or something..." The Winchdoctor was beginning to rant again, so I bid him farewell and went home through the rain. I suppose I will have to wait till next visit to ask him about the urban legend about putting your winch battery on bare concrete being bad for it. Doug
Re: [RCSE] WinchDoctor's short course on Batteries
While I would never dare to contradict the word of the good Doctor, I would like to offer another battery option. Bill Malvey is right, Optima is a great battery, nothing wrong with it, as a matter of fact I was thinking about getting one for me to replace my worn out leaky Trojan. Not having them leak all over is a big plus. I'm talking about batteries, here... Doug RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] re: pitcheron retainment
The plane you remember is the legendary Kestrel by Tom Feldvebel. He moved to New Mexico, not AZ. It's all composite, and very fast. Largely made from a rare composite material known as obtainamite, it is even more elusive than unobtainium, in that you just _might_ be able to obtain one. I have one in my quiver, and it is very fast and cool, it has a gear-driven speed brake that works like the F-15 brake. The wingeron hardware is machined from aluminum and features ball bearings for the wings to pivot. This is the most advanced and positive wingeron hardware I have seen. Oh, yeah, I made the hardware. Doc - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 9:20 AM Subject: [RCSE] re: pitcheron retainment I have only seen one pitcheron plane, but my sources have it that it is a very capable plane. It was about 50 span, all composite and very fast. The main rod was used for both wing support and control movements. He had a very nice machined aluminum mechanism in the fuse that allowed slop free control to the wings. He also had a speed brake that popped up from the aft fuse. I think he moved to Arizona now, although I can't remeber his name. Ken RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] caulking for bag, which one?
I use the cheapest, white latex caulk I can get. 99cents at home depot when on sale. Your bag will seal better if it can fold flat without any big wrinkles in it. Doc - Original Message - From: Martin Cleary To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 8:05 PM Subject: [RCSE] caulking for bag, which one? I am going to make another attempt at bagging a composite wing. I'd like to try using the method a plastic sheet with caulking on 3 sides. Is there a best caulk(or a material to stay away from)? Thanks, Martin RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Winch Power was Wing Abuse
Hey there all, I was over at the WinchDoctor's hut in the woods this evening, and we got to talking about winch power. Winch power, he said, ...is like the kind of power that those evil overloards in all those Sci-fi flicks you watch strive to get... something like *ULTIMATE POWER* beyond your wildest dreams... He narrowed his eyes, and it's usually their undoing. They get too greedy for power, and their long shaft power crystal or whatever kind of gizmo it is, folds their wings at the top of the launch, Ker-Whack! ...and they plummet into a pool of hot lava filled with hungry alligators. They were not used to it, they just don't know how to handle it. They didn't know what they were dealing with. I asked the Winch Doc which movie that was, and he just scowled at me. He's been scowling a lot lately, maybe he needs to go flying. He shook his head, and muttered, Real Balls REAL BALLS, I tell you, maybe gliderkind was not ready for such power, perhaps I should NEVER have developed them... Now his brow was frought with worry, and his hair resembled Einstein's tousled mop. I told him that the CA fumes must have been getting to him. Wait a minute, this is not like New-Clear power or anything, it's a universal standard for power. What we really want is consistant power across the country co that a winch you fly on on Ohio has the same relative power as one in Florida, or California. He began to explain, Long, long, ago, before the Bird of Time, the winches you would find were powered by various different kinds of motors. Most of them were electric, but some were gas powered, and some winches were wench powered! He reminded me about the Swinnch that Dave Thornburg designed some 30 years ago. (Sorry, Dave) So one day someone decided that all the winch motors should be sort of the same. They picked the Ford 'longshaft' starter motor, because there were many all over and you could always get one at the junkyard for a mere $10.00 ...when the F3B winch wars setteled down those europeans picked a Bosch motor that was common to their junkyards. We also want to keep the machinery relativly simple to reproduce with minimal tools. The F3B guys knew how important it was to have universal power across everyones's winches. The quest for power got to the point that they were running motors on 36volts, cooling them with dry ice, anything to get that edge of extra power, because who launches highest, wins I know that we don't have any restrictive rules limiting the winches used in AMA thermal duration, but most of the winches have about the same power output, due to the Ford motor, Real Ballsball bearing end plates, the sort-of standard 3 diameter hub, and the braided nylon line. Someday that may change if enough people push for it. My point is that everyone wants more power, lighter wing loading, faster servos, brighter, whiter, teeth, higher launches, etc, etc, etc... it's just human nature, and for the most part, there is no turning back. But wait, there is a way to have your RES stick built plane, and zoom your moldie, too, all on the same winch. If you have Real Balls installed on your winch, you can just retard the timing and reduce the power output. Back east they call it ReTaaaH Dead When you get to the NATS, remember that the winches all have relativly the same power output, like the horsepower specs for Rolls-Royce: adequate Fly what you like, that's where the fun is. - Original Message - From: Andy Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Wing Abuse All this talk about winch-proof wings is getting to me. I made the mistake of questioning the more-power-is-better approach to launching on another forum and was summarily covered in dogma. Seems I just didn't understand... But I have to ask - why not put a little effort into the winches themselves? Seems like an awful lot of time/money/effort is going into wing strength that is only needed during launch. I found a write-up in a 30-year old Model Builder (great mag) the other day for a gas-powered winch with an adjustable clutch. It would launch the lightest built up model or a macho unlimited, no pulsing, no breakage. The clutch automatically compensates for gusts as well. Why did this never catch on? One analogy to current launch technique is to say that cordless drills should run at one (high) speed, no clutch - and that fastener manufacturers should invest heavily in materials and designs that are able to withstand the incredible force applied by the drill. Would that make sense? So let's hear from the experts, from people who've been around since before 12 volt winches and carbon fiber, from people who competed in the 70's with Windfrees and other such designs... but please keep your anger to yourselves, I'm not interested in being chewed out again. I just really want to know why winches don't have
[RCSE] Celeb's of R/C Soaring Thermal Deathmatch 2001
...yeah, AMA thermal contests are really just _landing_ contests_yadda yadda... They should emphasize SOARING not LANDING well, we need something to seperate the men from the boys... I could outfly the Joe guy with one hand tied behind my back, it's just that he's better at landing... wah, wah, wah. YOU'VE HEARD IT ALL!!! YOU'VE SAID IT ALL NOW IT IS TIME TO PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR THUMBS ARE!!! CELEBERITY THERMAL DEATHMATCH 2001!!! A new twist on the rules, man-on-man with winches, emphasizes SOARING not LANDING calls weenies, weenies! You can change planes to suit the conditions like golf clubs! no skunk bite rules allowed The Portland Area Sailplane Society is going to hold such a contest on Saturday, June 2nd. We'll see how we like the idea! I think it has potential. Here's the link: http://www.monkeytumble.com/pass/tmp/td_dm_2001.htm WinchDoc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] Model building tools
One of my favorite modeling tools is my CNC mill... RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] winch launches
I think what a lot of folk ar just beginning to realise is that launching off of AMA style braided line VS F3B monofilament requires 2 slightly different techniques. Mono filament has the ability to store energy in the form of stretch, which is why most mono launches load the winch down to stall B/4 the launch. (the F3B legal winches have a bit less power than a Ford LS motor even without "Real Balls") Launching off braided or twisted nylon line requires better use of the line speed as there is much less energy stored in the line in the form of stretch. Last year at Pasadena, they were using dacron line, which has even less stretch than the nylon, and the power curve of a good launch was different again. For a humorous, non-techincal dissertation on zoom launching, you can read "Zoom Launching" on my website at http://members.nbci.com/winchdoc/ Also, be sure to read the safety related articles there as well. WinchDoc - Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Winch doc sez hi starts are NOT a mistake
Hi starts are NOT a mistake. They are great for short flying sessions. I like the short upstart type for landing practice or low level thermalling practice. They don't take up much room and you don't have to lug that big battery around. BUUUT there's nothing like a full power FLS winch launch, especially if the winch is equipped with "Real Balls" ball bearing endplates. The Winch Doc says his unit will eventually be available ... I am currently building Winch Doctor winch kits and complete winches. I expect to be shipping kits in January, and the complete winches in early Feburary. Now would be a good time to get on the build list. Doc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] The opposite of Gravity?
My good friend Nino "the mindboggler" Savante once told me that the opposite of gravity is, of course, comedy. Winchdoc - Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [RCSE] molds and CNC router requirements
--- Original Message --- "Aaron Coffey" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wrote on Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:17:27 +0800 -- SNIPO Is a 3 or 5 axis CNC router used to mill wing molds? What is considered acceptable accuracy in the mold? .5, 1, 1.5, or 2 thousandths of an inch? Are there any sites dealing with making a router? SNIP Hi Aaron, most of the CNC cut molds in the soaring community are cut on 3 axis machines. A ball nosed end mill is used to contour tangent to the curved surfaces. Whenever the surface is perpindicular to the spindle axis, the only contact point is at the theoretical center of the mill, which is essentially just pushing tha material around. This is where all that nasty mold polishing comes from. If you can make your molds on a 5 ax machine, (GET YOUR MONEY OUT)you can adjust the spindle to cut at 5-10 degrees off perpindicular and do away with a lot of the polishing. As far as accuracy goes, I would think you could get away with as loose as 0.01" in some places. The profile of a surface callouts usually associated with airfoil shapes found in jet engines and wind tunnel models is 0.002", and you would need a good coordinate measuring machine to tell you how close you get. Most good pattern makers can measure with a loft gage and get within 0.005". Repeatability is more important than the accuracy on any CNC tool. The routers you see are good for 0.005" -0.010" depending on the material and how fast you want to go. My CNC mill is an older one and it is good for about 0.002" or better with a little of that "machinist tricks" added. Our new Mori-Seiki mills are good to 0.0002" accuracy and 0.5" repeatablity. You can expect to pay (like, WAY more) than $10,000 for one of those. Winch Doc - Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [RCSE] molds and CNC router requirements
--- Original Message --- "Aaron Coffey" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wrote on Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:17:27 +0800 -- SNIPO Is a 3 or 5 axis CNC router used to mill wing molds? What is considered acceptable accuracy in the mold? .5, 1, 1.5, or 2 thousandths of an inch? Are there any sites dealing with making a router? SNIP Hi Aaron, most of the CNC cut molds in the soaring community are cut on 3 axis machines. A ball nosed end mill is used to contour tangent to the curved surfaces. Whenever the surface is perpindicular to the spindle axis, the only contact point is at the theoretical center of the mill, which is essentially just pushing tha material around. This is where all that nasty mold polishing comes from. If you can make your molds on a 5 ax machine, (GET YOUR MONEY OUT)you can adjust the spindle to cut at 5-10 degrees off perpindicular and do away with a lot of the polishing. As far as accuracy goes, I would think you could get away with as loose as 0.01" in some places. The profile of a surface callouts usually associated with airfoil shapes found in jet engines and wind tunnel models is 0.002", and you would need a good coordinate measuring machine to tell you how close you get. Most good pattern makers can measure with a loft gage and get within 0.005". Repeatability is more important than the accuracy on any CNC tool. The routers you see are good for 0.005" -0.010" depending on the material and how fast you want to go. My CNC mill is an older one and it is good for about 0.002" or better with a little of that "machinist tricks" added. Our new Mori-Seiki mills are good to 0.0002" accuracy and 0.5" repeatablity. You can expect to pay (like, WAY more) than $10,000 for one of those. Winch Doc - Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [RCSE] vac bag connector
Go to the auto parts store or hardware store and get a metal tire valve, screw out the center part, and toss it in the junk box for later. solder a brass barbed nipple (sounds kinky)into the tire valve. Voila! The Winchdoctor --- Original Message --- "Jason Werner" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wrote on Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:40:33 -0400 -- Morning folks! I have a quick need for a vac bag connector. This is the actual piece that connects the bag to the hose. The airtight "nipple". I know that ACP and CST and several other online stores sell this stuff. I have several connectors already...but I need more and TODAY! Ideally I am looking for a "local" alternative to this. i.e. what these are used for to begin with. Home Depot had no idea what I was talking about :) Any ideas? Jason Werner RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Calling Pete Stairs, Skip Miller
Pete Stairs, or Skip Miller, please contact me! I lost your message. Doug Boyd - Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Calling Jimmy Prouty
Jimmy Prouty Please contact your winch doctor... RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Cure for Thumb Flying
I used to be a thumb flier, but the ol' WinchDoc cured me a long time ago. He also got me out of the Coupled aileron rudder habit, too. Check his website for opinionated facts!!! http://members.xoom.com/winchdoc/xcontrl.html Doug RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Pasadena 3 FUNction rules?
What will the rules be for the Pasadena 3 FUNction contest on April 29 30? Winchdoc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Re: turnaround
In a message dated 11/21/1999 3:40:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, It was written: OK Gordy.. What makes Walts turnaround so damn good??? Allow me to put in my Y2 cents worth. Walt's turnaround that is supplied with the Little Big Winch is a great turnaround. I have seen them up close and they are well built. In fact, they are a simplified copy of the turnarounds I made for the Portland area sailplane society several years ago. They are still going strong. You won't go wrong with one of his turnarounds if you are planning to fly AMA/LSF type events particurlarly where you would want to use a retriever. Walt is a great guy and a member of PASS. Wierd disclaimer: Walt makes winches. I make winches. We "sort of" compete for your launching dollars, but our ultimate goal (both of us) is to get your sailplanes up. Winchdoc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
