[RCSE] An Argument For Handlaunch
I am perfectly willing to accept the premise that if two days were scheduled for DLG that 60 or more participants would show up. As a RES/Open flyer who has argued in the past for 2 days of RES, 2 days of Open and 1 day of 2 Meter -- only to be unambiguously persuaded that that we could never change in spite of the unmistakable trend toward higher participation in RES than 2 Meter -- one simple question: what do you cut to accommodate 2 days of DLG? One of the days occupied by 60+ 2 Meter guys, the only day occupied by 90+ RES guys or one of the two days occupied by 100+ guys in the premier Open class? How about one of the two days which is permanently dedicated to the U.S. FAI championship -- which may be more sacrosanct than even the other five days? You make a compelling case, so does everyone else. What do you do? I've decided that when I have time to schedule it I'll go to the Nats and fly whatever they are offering. They do a great job of hosting contests. And its the only game in town. Happy Landings, Don -- dharban dharban's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=31927 View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=901555 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
What are you ranting about? He didn't insult you! I read his post (thank you for quoting it in yours) several times over, and in no way does he slight you or anyone else that attended the German event. In fact, he says the words AT LEAST a half dozen of our top...pilots. By simple definition of the English language, that means as a minimum, and likely more, which of course would include YOU and the others you named. He probably only listed the names he did because he knows them or knows more about them or was directly aware that they went to that competition because of his involvement in the NATS. He wrote a very well written, well thought out post in SUPPORT of HLG/DLG flying. YOU, on the other hand chose to reply in a very negative way and to make it worse, verbally beat your chest and exclaimed to the world how wonderful and cool you are, which in my 50 years of life I have found usually means that just the opposite is true. The truly best very rarely ever talk about themselves, or even talk at all. They just simply go out there and do their thing, no matter what it is, and take what enjoyment from the activity that they can, and if it's competition, then you can bet that they just as quietly probably beat the pants off the likes of you. Think before you spout off like you just did. -Keith just another silent flyer who flies for fun now -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 9:00 PM To: Ben Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: soaring@airage.com; LASS Soaring List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch. Ben, I have never been so insulted as what you have posted here. Perhaps Jeff and Bret are just as insulted. I have been flying HLG longer than you are probably old, old enough for me to be your father and grandfather! Just so you know, there were three other US pilots at the German Open, yet you never acknowledge US!! I have flown HLG long before anybody ever thought about HLG contests. I flew in Dave Thornburg's HLG contest, and even designed a 66 HLG for it which parallels what we fly today. I fly HLG/DLG because it gives me the enjoyment and independence of not having to wait for winch lines or frequency control. Jeff Carr, Bret Carr and I supported our US group and flew. We may not be the creme of the crop that Oleg, Bruce, Paul or Phil may be, but we participate for each of our own reasons. You make it sound like we are invisible to the rest of the group. I think you are somewhat lost. I design and build DLGs because I enjoy the opportunity that they offer me. Of the US group, besides Oleg who flew his 5 year old Taboo designs, I was the only US guy there flying My Own design!!! DLG pilots fly DLG for one basic reason, it allows each of us to fly independently and to not depend on waiting for winches or any other complaints from others. I can go out and fly in the AM, Noon hour, or PM, and enjoy my time hunting the elusive thermal. Contests are not the only thing that matters in this world when it comes to flying. Some of us design, others fly, but in the end we fly fly fly!. In my opinion, the AMA does not know what DLG is doing for the world of soaring. TD contests will be going by the wayside. Bruce Davidson put it quite plainly at the German Open to me, why should he travel 10 hours, fly three or 4 flights then drive back from a TD contest, when he can fly DLG, many rounds and many flights and have the enjoyment of not having to just do spot landings. I will go to more DLG contests than TD contests this year and I am perhaps giving up TD contest entirely. I can do the social event at HLG/DLG contests and still get the technical and design satisfaction of DLG flying. After all What is DLG but a subclass of TD. Perhaps we should be saying that TD is really a subclass of HLG/DLG because we used to thermal out TD ships from Hand launches when we test glided TD ships! Personally I see DLG support by the AMA replacing F3B and even perhaps F3J, as a world class group. So I think you owe Jeff, Bret and Me an apology for not recognizing us as participants at the German Open at the same level as Oleg, Bruce, Paul, Phil and the rest. Don't forget, Bret did make the Junior flyoffs and did place in that realm! Please come back when you realize there are others who fly also. Thermals, Chris Adams LSF 348 Lvl V (#8) Original Message Subject: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch. From: Ben Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, July 29, 2008 7:15 pm To: soaring@airage.com, LASS Soaring List [EMAIL PROTECTED] So y'all have probably heard my whining about the lack of 2 days of handlaunch at the NATS, so let me pitch you my argument for it and for better attention paid to handlaunch by soaring in general. This is the product of a number of discussions I've had with a number of people involved with soaring at different levels over
[RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
Might as well put in my two cents, which is worth the same two cents as everyone else's two cents. Compared to many of you, with decades of experience, I am a relative newbie to RC flying ( 5 years ) and soaring ( 4 1/2 years ) I probably flew my first club contest 4 years ago and my first Eastern Soaring League contest 3 years ago. I think that Ben makes some good arguments for an expanded HLG/DLG presence at the NATs. As a member of a soaring club I observe that DLG soaring has been growing fast among club members. When I started, 5 years ago, there were a couple of guys throwing the older design HLGs, but they were rare to be seen on the field. Their HLGs were more for their off field flying. Today it is hard to make a visit to the field on the weekend when there are not DLGs soaring toward the heavens. And they are usually the same guys who are launching winched planes. DLG has just become an extension of their flying enjoyment. Our club has even changed our field layout and operational rules to make room for the DLG crowd, a crowd that I joined last year. I am still a big plane guy, but the attraction of the convenience and the intimacy of DLGs grows stronger. And the lack of extra equipment is a big plus. The Eastern Soaring League now has a separate series of DLG contests with an ever growing number of participants. We will have an ESL HLG contest at our field this weekend. We are no Polecat, with all the pageantry, but we have 25 pilots registered. I don't have national statistics or a world view of the DLG community, but from within my own limited view, it would seem that the DLG community has reached the point were a two day contest would be merited at the NATs. I do believe that there would be greater participation if the event were two days. As Ben suggests, I think it would rival some of the other categories for participation. Of course there is always the challenge of fitting in new events into the schedule. Do you extend the NATs or do you shrink some other event? RES participation really grew this year. Some say it is the emergence of the modern RES designs. Others say it was due to a change in contest schedule and sequence. But that is for others to figure out. BTW, I have never been to the NATs or any contest in Europe. The Eastern Soaring League contest series has been the limit of my big contest experience. But I am thinking I am ready for the NATs, perhaps next year, time and finances permitting. I think Ben made some good points. Ed Anderson A contest soaring newbie Original Message Subject: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch. From: Ben Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, July 29, 2008 7:15 pm To: soaring@airage.com, LASS Soaring List [EMAIL PROTECTED] So y'all have probably heard my whining about the lack of 2 days of handlaunch at the NATS, so let me pitch you my argument for it and for better attention paid to handlaunch by soaring in general. This is the product of a number of discussions I've had with a number of people involved with soaring at different levels over the past couple of years, so here goes: +++ I deleted the rest for brevity Ed ) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
Chris, Dude lighten up. The article was about DLG and what it is doing for Soairng in General not about specific pilots. Sure he mentioned the top dogs in his last email to help make his point, but he also mentioned all you and how well each of you did in his earlier article on the German Open. See Ya, Pat McCleave Wichita, KS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ben, I have never been so insulted as what you have posted here. Perhaps Jeff and Bret are just as insulted. I have been flying HLG longer than you are probably old, old enough for me to be your father and grandfather! Just so you know, there were three other US pilots at the German Open, yet you never acknowledge US!! I have flown HLG long before anybody ever thought about HLG contests. I flew in Dave Thornburg's HLG contest, and even designed a 66 HLG for it which parallels what we fly today. I fly HLG/DLG because it gives me the enjoyment and independence of not having to wait for winch lines or frequency control. Jeff Carr, Bret Carr and I supported our US group and flew. We may not be the creme of the crop that Oleg, Bruce, Paul or Phil may be, but we participate for each of our own reasons. You make it sound like we are invisible to the rest of the group. I think you are somewhat lost. I design and build DLGs because I enjoy the opportunity that they offer me. Of the US group, besides Oleg who flew his 5 year old Taboo designs, I was the only US guy there flying My Own design!!! DLG pilots fly DLG for one basic reason, it allows each of us to fly independently and to not depend on waiting for winches or any other complaints from others. I can go out and fly in the AM, Noon hour, or PM, and enjoy my time hunting the elusive thermal. Contests are not the only thing that matters in this world when it comes to flying. Some of us design, others fly, but in the end we fly fly fly!. In my opinion, the AMA does not know what DLG is doing for the world of soaring. TD contests will be going by the wayside. Bruce Davidson put it quite plainly at the German Open to me, why should he travel 10 hours, fly three or 4 flights then drive back from a TD contest, when he can fly DLG, many rounds and many flights and have the enjoyment of not having to just do spot landings. I will go to more DLG contests than TD contests this year and I am perhaps giving up TD contest entirely. I can do the social event at HLG/DLG contests and still get the technical and design satisfaction of DLG flying. After all What is DLG but a subclass of TD. Perhaps we should be saying that TD is really a subclass of HLG/DLG because we used to thermal out TD ships from Hand launches when we test glided TD ships! Personally I see DLG support by the AMA replacing F3B and even perhaps F3J, as a world class group. So I think you owe Jeff, Bret and Me an apology for not recognizing us as participants at the German Open at the same level as Oleg, Bruce, Paul, Phil and the rest. Don't forget, Bret did make the Junior flyoffs and did place in that realm! Please come back when you realize there are others who fly also. Thermals, Chris Adams LSF 348 Lvl V (#8) Original Message Subject: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch. From: Ben Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, July 29, 2008 7:15 pm To: soaring@airage.com, LASS Soaring List [EMAIL PROTECTED] So y'all have probably heard my whining about the lack of 2 days of handlaunch at the NATS, so let me pitch you my argument for it and for better attention paid to handlaunch by soaring in general. This is the product of a number of discussions I've had with a number of people involved with soaring at different levels over the past couple of years, so here goes: AN INTRODUCTION I've been in soaring since 2003, and have been to the NATS the last 4 years in some capacity or another. My first love is handlaunch, but I'm also a big fan of RES and Unlimited stuff. I also got the international-style bug last year towing for an F3J team at the NATS. Second, let me state that I have helped Denny Maize over the last 3 years organize his Polecat Challenge. In those years, it's gone from a pretty well attended contest (40 pilots) to last year, which had 93 registered and paid pilots. Around 80 or so flew. (Yes, we managed to top the IHLGF this year, but that might just be a statistical wobble, or it could be the Red Bull girls, pig roast or huge soaring raffle). As I was intimately involved with the registration of the pilots and the gathering and reporting of information about that contest as well as the NATS last year, I've got a somewhat unique perspective into handlaunch and soaring. I stress handlaunch and soaring there, because the crossover between HL and TD is pretty well delineated. There are a lot of people doing HL and more doing TD, but there is only modest
Re: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
Ben, I have never been so insulted as what you have posted here. Perhaps Jeff and Bret are just as insulted. I went to the NATS last year. Came in 33rd. in Unlimited. No one mentioned my name as attending. Should I be insulted? I'm not, as I do not need the pat on the back from my fellow man to be happy. I am plenty happy in my own mind with 33rd. Usually I am down about 100 more places. Bravo to everyone who took the time, effort and expense to attend in the German F3K event. Mark RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
Hey Ben, thanks for the passionate write up. I, for one, whole heartedly agree with you. Particularly about the part about HL being the best and most productive gateway, or portal to RC soaring. As you know there is so much talk about how to get new people, and young people into Rc Soaring, and darn it if the answer isn't HL. I would certainly hope that we can bring about enough influence to get 2 days of HL at the next NATS. Even without beer on tap at the field, we will have a good turnout. Thanks for your post, and your passion for soaring in general. Cheers, Mike Smith Original Message Subject: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.From: Ben Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Tue, July 29, 2008 7:15 pmTo: soaring@airage.com, LASS Soaring List[EMAIL PROTECTED]So y'all have probably heard my whining about the lack of 2 days of handlaunch at the NATS, so let me pitch you my argument for it and for better attention paid to handlaunch by soaring in general. This is the product of a number of discussions I've had with a number of people involved with soaring at different levels over the past couple of years, so here goes:AN INTRODUCTIONI've been in soaring since 2003, and have been to the NATS the last 4 years in some capacity or another. My first love is handlaunch, but I'm also a big fan of RES and Unlimited stuff. I also got the international-style bug last year towing for an F3J team at the NATS.Second, let me state that I have helped Denny Maize over the last 3 years organize his Polecat Challenge. In those years, it's gone from a pretty well attended contest (40 pilots) to last year, which had 93 registered and paid pilots. Around 80 or so flew. (Yes, we managed to top the IHLGF this year, but that might just be a statistical "wobble", or it could be the Red Bull girls, pig roast or huge soaring raffle).As I was intimately involved with the registration of the pilots and the gathering and reporting of information about that contest as well as the NATS last year, I've got a somewhat unique perspective into handlaunch and soaring. I stress "handlaunch and soaring" there, because the crossover between HL and TD is pretty well delineated. There are a lot of people doing HL and more doing TD, but there is only modest intersection between the two.SOME NUMBERSAt the Polecat Challenge, out of the 80-some pilots:13 of them were "Novices", meaning that they hadn't flown a contest before.29 of them were Sportsmen.The rest were experts.The average age for handlaunch competitors skews much younger than soaring in general (this is empirical)Last year at the NATS when I did the coverage for the NATSNews, I had to hunt and peck for guys who were new to soaring or the NATS - and that was out of 100+ pilots. I think I counted maybe 5 or 6 that were new to soaring or to the NATS. Many of them were in handlaunch (I brought at least two of them with me). I'm not covering the NATS this year, but attendance is the same as last year, but with RES attendance way up, so I'm assuming things stayed the same. Someone contradict me on that if I'm wrong.I spoke with a number of the new guys at the Polecat and a large number of them had never flown sailplanes before getting into handlaunch - but they had flown some sort of R/C. Helis, electrics, some gas, etc. Handlaunch is drawing people from other R/C niches to soaring. That's a good direction for us.WHY TWO DAYS AT THE NATSWell, frankly, because when I tell handlaunch people to "come to the NATS," they all say "I would, but only if it's a two-day contest". And I swear to you I didn't put that quote in their teeth! I will lay a $5 bet that the first two-day handlaunch contest at the NATS draws at least as many pilots as 2-meter, and maybe even as many as RES. I've spoken to at least that many people - and the handlaunch community is pretty damn tight - we'll support it. Period.Now, about the recent German contest - the German Open this year (just last weekend, same as NATS HL) drew away at least a half dozen of our top handlaunch pilots FROM THEIR OWN NATIONAL COMPETITION. Oleg Golovidov, Phil Barnes, Paul Anderson and Bruce Davidson, all past IHLGF or Polecat winners, didn't go to their own NATS because there is a better contest -- in Germany. 112 pilots from all around Europe, Sweden, Norway, Ukraine, etc etc. Huge. Beer on tap *at the field*!We've now got two serious and large contests - the IHLGF and the Polecat - but we don't have a "NATS" that is worth going to, and therefore isn't considered a "National" contest by anyone in the HL community. I don't want to get into that whole "Is the NATS a fun-fly?" argument again, but I would like to make Handlaunch at the NATS worth going to...SUMMARY* Handlaunch is attracting more new pilots* Handlaunch is attracting a younger audience* Handlaunch is acting as the "gateway" into soaring in generalIf you hold it, they will come.If you bring more handlaunchers to the NATS, you are bringing more (and more young) people into
RE: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
Bravo Mark, Now on to something that I SHOULD be upset about. I just got an email from AARPHOLY CRAP...isnt that the sign of the coming apocalypse? Oh man, it's just prostrate exams and midnight trips to the bathroom from here on out. So whose going to Visalia this year? Tom Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:31:53 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch. To: soaring@airage.comBen, I have never been so insulted as what you have posted here. Perhaps Jeff and Bret are just as insulted. I went to the NATS last year. Came in 33rd. in Unlimited. No one mentioned my name as attending. Should I be insulted? I'm not, as I do not need the pat on the back from my fellow man to be happy. I am plenty happy in my own mind with 33rd. Usually I am down about 100 more places. Bravo to everyone who took the time, effort and expense to attend in the German F3K event. MarkRCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format _ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008
RE: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
Oh, and Chris... I am so sorry I didn't mention you in my response to Bens post. You are so great. You deserve mention in every post about handlaunch and soaring. I mean without you where would we be right? Get over yourself. Bens post was sorighton point, and was not exclusionary. Unless of course you only read posts to see if they are talking about you, or for some other self centered reasons. Seriously, posts like yours are best left to your therapist, and not good for soaring or this exchange. Of course my rant here is my own personal opinion, and perhaps I should talk to my therapist about it. Mike Original Message Subject: RE: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Tue, July 29, 2008 9:00 pmTo: "Ben Wilson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: soaring@airage.com, "LASS Soaring List"[EMAIL PROTECTED]Ben,I have never been so insulted as what you have posted here. PerhapsJeff and Bret are just as insulted.I have been flying HLG longer than you are probably old, old enough forme to be your father and grandfather!Just so you know, there were three other US pilots at the German Open,yet you never acknowledge US!!I have flown HLG long before anybody ever thought about HLG contests. Iflew in Dave Thornburg's HLG contest, and even designed a 66" HLG for itwhich parallels what we fly today.I fly HLG/DLG because it gives me the enjoyment and independence of nothaving to wait for winch lines or frequency control.Jeff Carr, Bret Carr and I supported our US group and flew. We may notbe the creme of the crop that Oleg, Bruce, Paul or Phil may be, but weparticipate for each of our own reasons. You make it sound like we areinvisible to the rest of the group. I think you are somewhat lost.I design and build DLGs because I enjoy the opportunity that they offerme. Of the US group, besides Oleg who flew his 5 year old Taboodesigns, I was the only US guy there flying My Own design!!!DLG pilots fly DLG for one basic reason, it allows each of us to flyindependently and to not depend on waiting for winches or any othercomplaints from others. I can go out and fly in the AM, Noon hour, orPM, and enjoy my time hunting the elusive thermal. Contests are not theonly thing that matters in this world when it comes to flying. Some ofus design, others fly, but in the end we fly fly fly!.In my opinion, the AMA does not know what DLG is doing for the world ofsoaring. TD contests will be going by the wayside. Bruce Davidson putit quite plainly at the German Open to me, "why should he travel 10hours, fly three or 4 flights then drive back from a TD contest", whenhe can fly DLG, many rounds and many flights and have the enjoyment ofnot having to just do spot landings.I will go to more DLG contests than TD contests this year and I amperhaps giving up TD contest entirely. I can do the social event atHLG/DLG contests and still get the technical and design satisfaction ofDLG flying. After all What is DLG but a subclass of TD. Perhaps weshould be saying that TD is really a subclass of HLG/DLG because we usedto thermal out TD ships from Hand launches when we test glided TD ships!Personally I see DLG support by the AMA replacing F3B and even perhapsF3J, as a world class group.So I think you owe Jeff, Bret and Me an apology for not recognizing usas participants at the German Open at the same level as Oleg, Bruce,Paul, Phil and the rest.Don't forget, Bret did make the Junior flyoffs and did place in thatrealm!Please come back when you realize there are others who fly also.Thermals,Chris AdamsLSF 348 Lvl V (#8) Original Message ---- Subject: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch. From: Ben Wilson ben@thelocust.org Date: Tue, July 29, 2008 7:15 pm To: soaring@airage.com, LASS Soaring List soaring@louisvillesoaring.org So y'all have probably heard my whining about the lack of 2 days of handlaunch at the NATS, so let me pitch you my argument for it and for better attention paid to handlaunch by soaring in general. This is the product of a number of discussions I've had with a number of people involved with soaring at different levels over the past couple of years, so here goes: AN INTRODUCTION I've been in soaring since 2003, and have been to the NATS the last 4 years in some capacity or another. My first love is handlaunch, but I'm also a big fan of RES and Unlimited stuff. I also got the international-style bug last year towing for an F3J team at the NATS. Second, let me state that I have helped Denny Maize over the last 3 years organize his Polecat Challenge. In those years, it's gone from a pretty well attended contest (40 pilots) to last year, which had 93 registered and paid pilots. Around 80 or so flew. (Yes, we managed to top the IHLGF this year, but that might just be a statistical "wobble", or it could be the Red Bull girls, pig roast or huge soaring raffle). As I was intimately involved with the registration of the pilots and the gathering and report
RE: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
Yeah.BUT.You also get to eat off the Senior side of the menu!!! -Sheldon- From: TG Bean [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 11:06 AM To: Mark Miller; soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch. Bravo Mark, Now on to something that I SHOULD be upset about. I just got an email from AARPHOLY CRAP...isnt that the sign of the coming apocalypse? Oh man, it's just prostrate exams and midnight trips to the bathroom from here on out. So whose going to Visalia this year? Tom Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:31:53 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch. To: soaring@airage.com Ben, I have never been so insulted as what you have posted here. Perhaps Jeff and Bret are just as insulted. I went to the NATS last year. Came in 33rd. in Unlimited. No one mentioned my name as attending. Should I be insulted? I'm not, as I do not need the pat on the back from my fellow man to be happy. I am plenty happy in my own mind with 33rd. Usually I am down about 100 more places. Bravo to everyone who took the time, effort and expense to attend in the German F3K event. Mark RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format _ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. Help protect your kids. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_fa mily_safety_072008
RE: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
Oh Yes, please send me an applications. LOL Chris Original Message Subject: RE: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch. From: TG Bean [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, July 30, 2008 8:05 am To: Mark Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED], soaring@airage.com Bravo Mark, Now on to something that I SHOULD be upset about. I just got an email from AARPHOLY CRAP...isnt that the sign of the coming apocalypse? Oh man, it's just prostrate exams and midnight trips to the bathroom from here on out. So whose going to Visalia this year? Tom Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:31:53 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch. To: soaring@airage.com Ben, I have never been so insulted as what you have posted here. Perhaps Jeff and Bret are just as insulted. I went to the NATS last year. Came in 33rd. in Unlimited. No one mentioned my name as attending. Should I be insulted? I'm not, as I do not need the pat on the back from my fellow man to be happy. I am plenty happy in my own mind with 33rd. Usually I am down about 100 more places. Bravo to everyone who took the time, effort and expense to attend in the German F3K event. Mark RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format _ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
Now on to something that I SHOULD be upset about. I just got an email from AARPHOLY C**P...isnt that the sign of the coming apocalypse? Oh man, it's just prostrate exams and midnight trips to the bathroom from here on out. Uhhh, you're not prostrate for a prostate exam. That's the other Doc working with the long TV tube. Been there, done that. Leave a book on the clothes hamper in the outhouse. You get decent discounts with your AARP card if you remember where you put it. 2 day DLG at the Nats! Great idea! I appreciate all the dialog on this topic. Already put 11,000 miles on the truck this year driving around the US for discus events. If there's a 2-day at the Nats, it definitely goes on my ToDo list. Let's see, north to St. Louis and turn right. Drive on 'til the first star on the left. Ooops. Nope, that's Polecat. Of course the real humiliation about being a bottom-feeder like myself is showing up at Poway and having Gordy beat you at your own game. Thanks Ben for the write-ups. Thanks Chris and the Carrs and all the guys who represented the US at the German F3K. Some of the them have been going on their own nickel for several years. Please keep up the great effort. Now the challenge is making the NATS the 3rd major US national contest for discus. How do we collectively help make it happen? - Dave R RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
I also agree with Ben in that Handlaunch is breathing new life into soaring. We have seen it here in St. Louis. While there may not be many new members produced from it yet it sure has rekindled excitement from many of the current members. I, like Chris, go back to the beginnings of HLG. I built a Sunbird when Dave's article came out and have been with it ever since. I designed some old style HLG javelin type models and loved them. I have not participated much since DLG came about mostly because I had other things I wanted to do but I'm restarting again. I like the amount you get to fly, the simplicity of it all and the contest format makes you think more than I have to in TD. Do I launch again and risk that 2 minute flight or do I walk away and see where the chips fall? for example. What I would like to see, and I do not know how realistic it is, would be a beginners class of handlaunch. Something where you do not need a $600 DLG machine or a $400 used beater where you spend more time chasing wing de laminations than flying. Something where you can learn flying and thermaling skills and move your way into the big leagues. I do not know if it is wood built ups on a mini high start or not. While that format is fun it is really just all up, last down over and over. Maybe a 1 meter DLG class? I'm not bright enough to figure it all out but I feel there needs to be something. Mark Miller Missing the NATS Greatly RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
Hey Mark, Does the Sidewinder from Polecata fill the bill, or is that still a little beyond what you were thinking for target price? Just curious. Mike Original Message Subject: Re: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.From: Mark Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Wed, July 30, 2008 11:51 amTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED], TG Bean [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: soaring@airage.comI also agree with Ben in that Handlaunch is breathing new life into soaring. We have seen it here in St. Louis. While there may not be many new members produced from it yet it sure has rekindled excitement from many of the current members. I, like Chris, go back to the beginnings of HLG. I built a Sunbird when Dave's article came out and have been with it ever since. I designed some old style HLG javelin type models and loved them. I have not participated much since DLG came about mostly because I had other things I wanted to do but I'm restarting again. I like the amount you get to fly, the simplicity of it all and the contest format makes you think more than I have to in TD. "Do I launch again and risk that 2 minute flight or do I walk away and see where the chips fall?" for example.What I would like to see, and I do not know how realistic it is, would be a beginners class of handlaunch. Something where you do not need a $600 DLG machine or a $400 used beater where you spend more time chasing wing de laminations than flying. Something where you can learn flying and thermaling skills and move your way into the big leagues. I do not know if it is wood built ups on a mini high start or not. While that format is fun it is really just all up, last down over and over. Maybe a 1 meter DLG class? I'm not bright enough to figure it all out but I feel there needs to be something. Mark MillerMissing the NATS GreatlyRCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to soaring-request@airage.com. Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
- Original Message From: Ben Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...let me pitch you my argument for...better attention paid to handlaunch by soaring in general. Well, Ben, after hearing about how all you young bucks were having fun with these HL planes, I got me one of 'em and went to try 'er out. But I couldn't figger the dagnab thing out. First of all, there wasn't no towhook or nothin'. Then I noticed this little black popsicle stick jabbed through the end of one of the wings, and I thought maybe that was where I was spozed to hook on the winch line, but I couldn't get the ring to stay on. Daggondest thing I ever saw. And I got to thinking, even if I could, wouldn't the winch just yank 'er along sideways? So I give the whole thing up as a bad job and went to fly 'er on the slope, which she ain't too bad if the wind ain't a-blowin too strong. Maybe next time I see you, you can give me some pointers about what I'm doin' wrong.
Re: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
Mike, The Sidewinder is close but I think $300 for the kit may still be a bit much for the young folks when you consider the all up cost will be about $425 if you build it yourself. Louisville's little Lee has progressed very nicely flying a bunch of woodies early on and getting the most out of them. If there was a similar kind of plane for handlaunch it may bring the really young crowd in earlier. I doubt Lee could have gone for a Sidewinder a year or so ago. The issue to me is that the first step in handlaunch has a tall cost of entry. My son Brendan who is 21 now bought a used XP-4 from Jeff Carr last year. It just about tapped out his life savings even though it was a fair price for a used XP-4. He had a tip strike a few months ago and delaminated the skin. It is fixable but time is short right now. The Gambler is more like what I was thinking. It has decent performance and is cheap to get flying. Now if only there were contests based on this kind of plane. Just think of the new talent it could attract and when they get to the point of going for a big bagged plane they will have all the skills they learned in the more beginner class. Mark Miller - Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mark Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: soaring@airage.com Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 4:17:56 PM Subject: RE: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch. Hey Mark, Does the Sidewinder from Polecata fill the bill, or is that still a little beyond what you were thinking for target price? Just curious. Mike Original Message Subject: Re: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch. From: Mark Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, July 30, 2008 11:51 am To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], TG Bean [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: soaring@airage.com I also agree with Ben in that Handlaunch is breathing new life into soaring. We have seen it here in St. Louis. While there may not be many new members produced from it yet it sure has rekindled excitement from many of the current members. I, like Chris, go back to the beginnings of HLG. I built a Sunbird when Dave's article came out and have been with it ever since. I designed some old style HLG javelin type models and loved them. I have not participated much since DLG came about mostly because I had other things I wanted to do but I'm restarting again. I like the amount you get to fly, the simplicity of it all and the contest format makes you think more than I have to in TD. Do I launch again and risk that 2 minute flight or do I walk away and see where the chips fall? for example. What I would like to see, and I do not know how realistic it is, would be a beginners class of handlaunch. Something where you do not need a $600 DLG machine or a $400 used beater where you spend more time chasing wing de laminations than flying. Something where you can learn flying and thermaling skills and move your way into the big leagues. I do not know if it is wood built ups on a mini high start or not. While that format is fun it is really just all up, last down over and over. Maybe a 1 meter DLG class? I'm not bright enough to figure it all out but I feel there needs to be something. Mark Miller Missing the NATS Greatly RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
So y'all have probably heard my whining about the lack of 2 days of handlaunch at the NATS, so let me pitch you my argument for it and for better attention paid to handlaunch by soaring in general. This is the product of a number of discussions I've had with a number of people involved with soaring at different levels over the past couple of years, so here goes: AN INTRODUCTION I've been in soaring since 2003, and have been to the NATS the last 4 years in some capacity or another. My first love is handlaunch, but I'm also a big fan of RES and Unlimited stuff. I also got the international-style bug last year towing for an F3J team at the NATS. Second, let me state that I have helped Denny Maize over the last 3 years organize his Polecat Challenge. In those years, it's gone from a pretty well attended contest (40 pilots) to last year, which had 93 registered and paid pilots. Around 80 or so flew. (Yes, we managed to top the IHLGF this year, but that might just be a statistical wobble, or it could be the Red Bull girls, pig roast or huge soaring raffle). As I was intimately involved with the registration of the pilots and the gathering and reporting of information about that contest as well as the NATS last year, I've got a somewhat unique perspective into handlaunch and soaring. I stress handlaunch and soaring there, because the crossover between HL and TD is pretty well delineated. There are a lot of people doing HL and more doing TD, but there is only modest intersection between the two. SOME NUMBERS At the Polecat Challenge, out of the 80-some pilots: 13 of them were Novices, meaning that they hadn't flown a contest before. 29 of them were Sportsmen. The rest were experts. The average age for handlaunch competitors skews much younger than soaring in general (this is empirical) Last year at the NATS when I did the coverage for the NATSNews, I had to hunt and peck for guys who were new to soaring or the NATS - and that was out of 100+ pilots. I think I counted maybe 5 or 6 that were new to soaring or to the NATS. Many of them were in handlaunch (I brought at least two of them with me). I'm not covering the NATS this year, but attendance is the same as last year, but with RES attendance way up, so I'm assuming things stayed the same. Someone contradict me on that if I'm wrong. I spoke with a number of the new guys at the Polecat and a large number of them had never flown sailplanes before getting into handlaunch - but they had flown some sort of R/C. Helis, electrics, some gas, etc. Handlaunch is drawing people from other R/C niches to soaring. That's a good direction for us. WHY TWO DAYS AT THE NATS Well, frankly, because when I tell handlaunch people to come to the NATS, they all say I would, but only if it's a two-day contest. And I swear to you I didn't put that quote in their teeth! I will lay a $5 bet that the first two-day handlaunch contest at the NATS draws at least as many pilots as 2-meter, and maybe even as many as RES. I've spoken to at least that many people - and the handlaunch community is pretty damn tight - we'll support it. Period. Now, about the recent German contest - the German Open this year (just last weekend, same as NATS HL) drew away at least a half dozen of our top handlaunch pilots FROM THEIR OWN NATIONAL COMPETITION. Oleg Golovidov, Phil Barnes, Paul Anderson and Bruce Davidson, all past IHLGF or Polecat winners, didn't go to their own NATS because there is a better contest -- in Germany. 112 pilots from all around Europe, Sweden, Norway, Ukraine, etc etc. Huge. Beer on tap *at the field*! We've now got two serious and large contests - the IHLGF and the Polecat - but we don't have a NATS that is worth going to, and therefore isn't considered a National contest by anyone in the HL community. I don't want to get into that whole Is the NATS a fun-fly? argument again, but I would like to make Handlaunch at the NATS worth going to... SUMMARY * Handlaunch is attracting more new pilots * Handlaunch is attracting a younger audience * Handlaunch is acting as the gateway into soaring in general If you hold it, they will come. If you bring more handlaunchers to the NATS, you are bringing more (and more young) people into soaring. If you bring more people into soaring, it is a good thing(tm). And finally - F3K is official now and is going to have it's first-ever World Champs in 2011. It is never early enough to start supporting it. Some of you on the RCSE have already heard this before and I appreciate you listening! I am happy to say we *are* making progress on it. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
Well for what it's worth. I like to fly contests and have had help learning how to practice from arguably some of the best pilots in the country. I fly only RES and unlimited at this point as far as contests go, but I do have a hand launch and really like flying that as well. If I were going to pony up for a contest for handlaunch and I had to travel, I would rather pay the extra money and go to Europe for a multitude of reasons. 1. Better Beer 2. More things to see (more interesting) 3. Amsterdam (I wont even go into why I like Amsterdam) 4. Far easier to talk my wife into going and frankly I would rather be with her in a foreign country than being alone in Muncie.5. A chance to meet the Americans I would like to meet (since apparently they are going to the European contest anyway.) So to be honest if they added a day in Muncie, but there were a contest in Europe...I would still go to Europe. Just my two Euro's Tom _ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008
RE: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
Ben, I have never been so insulted as what you have posted here. Perhaps Jeff and Bret are just as insulted. I have been flying HLG longer than you are probably old, old enough for me to be your father and grandfather! Just so you know, there were three other US pilots at the German Open, yet you never acknowledge US!! I have flown HLG long before anybody ever thought about HLG contests. I flew in Dave Thornburg's HLG contest, and even designed a 66 HLG for it which parallels what we fly today. I fly HLG/DLG because it gives me the enjoyment and independence of not having to wait for winch lines or frequency control. Jeff Carr, Bret Carr and I supported our US group and flew. We may not be the creme of the crop that Oleg, Bruce, Paul or Phil may be, but we participate for each of our own reasons. You make it sound like we are invisible to the rest of the group. I think you are somewhat lost. I design and build DLGs because I enjoy the opportunity that they offer me. Of the US group, besides Oleg who flew his 5 year old Taboo designs, I was the only US guy there flying My Own design!!! DLG pilots fly DLG for one basic reason, it allows each of us to fly independently and to not depend on waiting for winches or any other complaints from others. I can go out and fly in the AM, Noon hour, or PM, and enjoy my time hunting the elusive thermal. Contests are not the only thing that matters in this world when it comes to flying. Some of us design, others fly, but in the end we fly fly fly!. In my opinion, the AMA does not know what DLG is doing for the world of soaring. TD contests will be going by the wayside. Bruce Davidson put it quite plainly at the German Open to me, why should he travel 10 hours, fly three or 4 flights then drive back from a TD contest, when he can fly DLG, many rounds and many flights and have the enjoyment of not having to just do spot landings. I will go to more DLG contests than TD contests this year and I am perhaps giving up TD contest entirely. I can do the social event at HLG/DLG contests and still get the technical and design satisfaction of DLG flying. After all What is DLG but a subclass of TD. Perhaps we should be saying that TD is really a subclass of HLG/DLG because we used to thermal out TD ships from Hand launches when we test glided TD ships! Personally I see DLG support by the AMA replacing F3B and even perhaps F3J, as a world class group. So I think you owe Jeff, Bret and Me an apology for not recognizing us as participants at the German Open at the same level as Oleg, Bruce, Paul, Phil and the rest. Don't forget, Bret did make the Junior flyoffs and did place in that realm! Please come back when you realize there are others who fly also. Thermals, Chris Adams LSF 348 Lvl V (#8) Original Message Subject: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch. From: Ben Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, July 29, 2008 7:15 pm To: soaring@airage.com, LASS Soaring List [EMAIL PROTECTED] So y'all have probably heard my whining about the lack of 2 days of handlaunch at the NATS, so let me pitch you my argument for it and for better attention paid to handlaunch by soaring in general. This is the product of a number of discussions I've had with a number of people involved with soaring at different levels over the past couple of years, so here goes: AN INTRODUCTION I've been in soaring since 2003, and have been to the NATS the last 4 years in some capacity or another. My first love is handlaunch, but I'm also a big fan of RES and Unlimited stuff. I also got the international-style bug last year towing for an F3J team at the NATS. Second, let me state that I have helped Denny Maize over the last 3 years organize his Polecat Challenge. In those years, it's gone from a pretty well attended contest (40 pilots) to last year, which had 93 registered and paid pilots. Around 80 or so flew. (Yes, we managed to top the IHLGF this year, but that might just be a statistical wobble, or it could be the Red Bull girls, pig roast or huge soaring raffle). As I was intimately involved with the registration of the pilots and the gathering and reporting of information about that contest as well as the NATS last year, I've got a somewhat unique perspective into handlaunch and soaring. I stress handlaunch and soaring there, because the crossover between HL and TD is pretty well delineated. There are a lot of people doing HL and more doing TD, but there is only modest intersection between the two. SOME NUMBERS At the Polecat Challenge, out of the 80-some pilots: 13 of them were Novices, meaning that they hadn't flown a contest before. 29 of them were Sportsmen. The rest were experts. The average age for handlaunch competitors skews much younger than soaring in general (this is empirical) Last year at the NATS when I did the coverage for the NATSNews, I had to hunt and peck for guys who were new to soaring or the NATS
Re: [RCSE] An argument for handlaunch.
Those are great reasons! MM 1. Better Beer 2. More things to see (more interesting) 3. Amsterdam (I wont even go into why I like Amsterdam) 4. Far easier to talk my wife into going and frankly I would rather be with her in a foreign country than being alone in Muncie. 5. A chance to meet the Americans I would like to meet (since apparently they are going to the European contest anyway.) So to be honest if they added a day in Muncie, but there were a contest in Europe...I would still go to Europe. Just my two Euro's Tom RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
