Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
Everyone brings thier own winch and spare winch. Then the winch and line is thier responsibility. Standardize winches Oooops, everyone wants overweight, oversized Fords with G29 batteries that some other poor fool carts out to the field so they just have to walk up and fly. pfsiegel wrote: I would like to throw this topic out to the soaring exchange to see if there is any consensus of opinion on policy concerning winch line breaks during launch, particularly during man on man competition. What would be a good standard policy for line breaks that could be universally adopted for a contest series like the OVSS? Let's assume that there is an extra winch that is available for relaunch if a line break occurs. If during launch there is a line break during a mass launch or even during a slightly staggered launch, then an unfair advantage can be gained by the pilot who experienced the line break. Before any subsequent relaunch from the extra winch during the same round, the delay in that relaunch could allow the pilot to observe the scatter of sailplanes already launched for any obvious areas of lift. The obvious solution is to NOT allow any relaunch after a line break. This solution certainly discourages intentional line breakage by a pilot who is not happy with his launch or who just wants to be the last pilot to launch. However, there is very real possibility that the line may have been weakened by a previous line cross during launch phase or even when the timer was tapping down the chute after a previous launch. In this instance, the pilot who suffered the line break would be unfairly penalized for a problem that he was not responsible for. This hardly seems fair, particularly for an unfortunate pilot who may have traveled a fair distance to compete over a full weekend of flying. For better or worse, this no relaunch rule also discriminates against larger, heavier sailplanes. One possible solution might be to automatically bump the pilot to the next flight group. But what if this happens in the last flight group for the round? Or, what if more than one line break happens in the same flight group and there is only one extra winch? Maybe a quick retrieve of an already been launched winch for the relaunch? Should there be a time limit for when the relaunch must happen? What would that time be? Or should this be at the discretion of the launch master? It sure slows down a contest to have everyone land for a mass relaunch which makes that an unpopular solution. What about a compromise to allow one line break per day, with the provision that in the opinion of the launch master that there has not been an intentional attempt to break the line? Or??? RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format . RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
Jack Iafret wrote: Normally, I kind of keep to the back of the tree line but this is one of my few hot buttons-launching systems. FAI has a method, not good for us. ... With todays electronics, a controller should be able to be done for a reasonable amount (I think reasonable would be under $150-200). Actually, the current F3b winch test with the clamp meter works just fine for measuring the winches/batteries. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
Gee, guess I'm just a poor fool. :-) At 08:28 AM 5/20/2005, Michael Lachowski wrote: Oooops, everyone wants overweight, oversized Fords with G29 batteries that some other poor fool carts out to the field so they just have to walk up and fly. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], James V. Bacus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I have been reading this thread with interest, waiting to see which route you would follow in the US. Might I suggest that you consider looking at the rules that are supplied and actioned during BARCS competitions in the UK. We have been using winches for a while here as well and we have been flying man on man comps for longer so we do have a fair bit of knowledge on the subject. The rules we use in the UK, have proved to be very fair in use, and that is more important than any written words on the subject. There is always the possibility that a line break will occur that the pilot or winch driver has no control over, likewise there will always be line breaks that can be directly attributed to the actions of either pilot or winch driver, deliberate or accidental. Proving that would be impossible so it is best ignored completely. If a line break occurs then the pilot will loose out on some points, tough. An immediate relaunch will not see him too far behind the others and may even work to his benefit if the others have launched into sink. That is simply part of the game we play. We tend to allow any available winch to be used for a relaunch, not just the pilots own personal one. If the pilot deems to use their own after the line has been retrieved and repaired then that is up to the individual. The pilot also has the option to call for a relaunch immediately and land within one minute or attempt to fly out the slot if he/she feels that the air is good enough. Errors in judgement will and do happen, that too is part of the game. Enough of this speech, it is only my own personal opinion. Please, go to the BARCS web site and have a look at the rules they apply to their open competitions, it may just be your answer and is certainly worth a serious consideration. That is the way it is traditionally done in the OVSS, but where you are most likely to see line break action is in the last group with the strongest pilots, and that round is always filled so there will never be an empty slot to allow someone in. Chicago SOAR always restrings its winches with fresh #290 before a OVSS weekend. At 05:18 PM 5/16/2005, Jim Monaco wrote: I suggest that the order of the groups for seeded MOM send the lower seeds up first, then if a flight is delayed you get a tougher group rather than an easier group. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Ron Russell RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
Ron wrote: An immediate relaunch will not see him too far behind the others and may even work to his benefit if the others have launched into sink. That is simply part of the game we play. We tend to allow any available winch to be used for a relaunch, not just the pilots own personal one. If the pilot deems to use their own after the line has been retrieved and repaired then that is up to the individual. The pilot also has the option to call for a relaunch immediately and land within one minute or attempt to fly out the slot if he/she feels that the air is good enough. Errors in judgement will and do happen, that too is part of the game. Ron, What you miss is that we are not flying a slot time as in F3J. We have clubs here that have flown MOM formats for 20 years, and as technology and such have improved, this question has raised more of a issue to be addrssed here. Yes, in a slot time contest the guy who breaks the line is definately taking a hit, but here,there is not a slot but just a given task and the flier that relights can make the max with info gained after the fact. I agree that the F3J format has some self penalties that take care of many issues that arise, but for our circumstances, this is a constant issue. Use to, when our contests were smaller, bringing down the group was not really an issue,but now with 25-40 fliers and very long task times (13-15 minutes all day) we hustle to have as many rounds as we can get in. Marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
I would like to throw this topic out to the soaring exchange to see if there is any consensus of opinion on policy concerning winch line breaks during launch, particularly during man on man competition. What would be a good standard policy for line breaks that could be universally adopted for a contest series like the OVSS? Let's assume that there is an extra winch that is available for relaunch if a line break occurs. If during launch there is a line break during a mass launch or even during a slightly staggered launch, then an unfair advantage can be gained by the pilot who experienced the line break. Before any subsequent relaunch from the extra winch during the same round, the delay in that relaunch could allow the pilot to observe the scatter of sailplanes already launched for any obvious areas of lift. The obvious solution is to NOT allow any relaunch after a line break. This solution certainly discourages intentional line breakage by a pilot who is not happy with his launch or who just wants to be the last pilot to launch. However, there is very real possibility that the line may have been weakened by a previous line cross during launch phase or even when the timer was tapping down the chute after a previous launch. In this instance, the pilot who suffered the line break would be unfairly penalized for a problem that he was not responsible for. This hardly seems fair, particularly for an unfortunate pilot who may have traveled a fair distance to compete over a full weekend of flying. For better or worse, this no relaunch rule also discriminates against larger, heavier sailplanes. One possible solution might be to automatically bump the pilot to the next flight group. But what if this happens in the last flight group for the round? Or, what if more than one line break happens in the same flight group and there is only one extra winch? Maybe a quick retrieve of an already been launched winch for the relaunch? Should there be a time limit for when the relaunch must happen? What would that time be? Or should this be at the discretion of the launch master? It sure slows down a contest to have everyone land for a mass relaunch which makes that an unpopular solution. What about a compromise to allow one line break per day, with the provision that in the opinion of the launch master that there has not been an intentional attempt to break the line? Or??? RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
Paul, I too am somewhat dismayed. Whatever answer that is brought forth, someone will surely feel slighted. I too do not like the unfair, 2 minutes later relight, for the very reason that you state. I also do not like the low launch rule, especially, as you say, and I have seen, it was not the launching pilots error, but a line improperly retrieved; wrapped around the turn around, or even better, the turn around threaded backwards !!! Those of us who fly the larger airplanes are often held hostage, if you will, to the sponsoring clubs version of heavy line... whatever that might be. There is no standard called out, but I try to run 280lb on my winch, with few if any line breaks. Line condition, grass condition , wet / dry / new / last years or even worse It looks new line , also impacts the competitive edge. Let us not forget as well, not matter how hard we try, basically none of the winches at these MOM contests are truly matched, if they even look the same, we should consider ourselves lucky. Differences in brakes, brake hookups, Brake type for that matter, are usually different. I for one think that it is more appropriate to call them all down, IF the launch director determines a malfunction within X seconds, that not of the launching pilot, HOWEVER, Like you say, it tends to lead to a long contest day, and all it takes is one person to be the .. aahhPerp !! Great Question, I am interested in the outcome, but be fore warned, if we are not careful we could regulate ourselves outta the fun this is supposed to be.. Actually this needed to be covered last fall, during the planning phase for this year... 8-) Jack At 04:47 PM 5/16/2005, pfsiegel wrote: I would like to throw this topic out to the soaring exchange to see if there is any consensus of opinion on policy concerning winch line breaks during launch, particularly during man on man competition. What would be a good standard policy for line breaks that could be universally adopted for a contest series like the OVSS? Let's assume that there is an extra winch that is available for relaunch if a line break occurs. If during launch there is a line break during a mass launch or even during a slightly staggered launch, then an unfair advantage can be gained by the pilot who experienced the line break. Before any subsequent relaunch from the extra winch during the same round, the delay in that relaunch could allow the pilot to observe the scatter of sailplanes already launched for any obvious areas of lift. The obvious solution is to NOT allow any relaunch after a line break. This solution certainly discourages intentional line breakage by a pilot who is not happy with his launch or who just wants to be the last pilot to launch. However, there is very real possibility that the line may have been weakened by a previous line cross during launch phase or even when the timer was tapping down the chute after a previous launch. In this instance, the pilot who suffered the line break would be unfairly penalized for a problem that he was not responsible for. This hardly seems fair, particularly for an unfortunate pilot who may have traveled a fair distance to compete over a full weekend of flying. For better or worse, this no relaunch rule also discriminates against larger, heavier sailplanes. One possible solution might be to automatically bump the pilot to the next flight group. But what if this happens in the last flight group for the round? Or, what if more than one line break happens in the same flight group and there is only one extra winch? Maybe a quick retrieve of an already been launched winch for the relaunch? Should there be a time limit for when the relaunch must happen? What would that time be? Or should this be at the discretion of the launch master? It sure slows down a contest to have everyone land for a mass relaunch which makes that an unpopular solution. What about a compromise to allow one line break per day, with the provision that in the opinion of the launch master that there has not been an intentional attempt to break the line? Or??? RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format Jack Strother Granger, IN LSF V #117 //home.comcast.net/~strotherbj RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
Paul - In RMSA we fly all our contests as random MoM - not seeded. The rules are: 1. If the line break occurs to a novice they are allowed to relite on a free winch for the same round. While there might be an advantage, novices are not generally capable of using that advantage successfully. 2. For Sportsman or Masters, the pilot will be scheduled into the next available flight group (checking frequencies of course). 3. If there are no free slots available in a subsequent group (perhaps other pilots had breaks too and filled the slots or frequency conflicts) then we bring them down and refly the group. 4. For breaks in the last group of a round they are always brought down for a relaunch (if masters or sportsman). Generally bringing them down is not too much of a time hit if you do it promptly. We had much debate about relaunching in the same group and for the more seasoned competitors we felt it was too much of an advantage. When flying seeded MOM there will be the question of breaking the line to get into a later group. I suggest that the order of the groups for seeded MOM send the lower seeds up first, then if a flight is delayed you get a tougher group rather than an easier group. We use 290# braided and have very few line breaks so it is not really a big deal in practice. Hope this helps.. Jim Monaco Rocky Mountain Soaring Association Denver --- pfsiegel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would like to throw this topic out to the soaring exchange to see if there is any consensus of opinion on policy concerning winch line breaks during launch, particularly during man on man competition. What would be a good standard policy for line breaks that could be universally adopted for a contest series like the OVSS? Let's assume that there is an extra winch that is available for relaunch if a line break occurs. If during launch there is a line break during a mass launch or even during a slightly staggered launch, then an unfair advantage can be gained by the pilot who experienced the line break. Before any subsequent relaunch from the extra winch during the same round, the delay in that relaunch could allow the pilot to observe the scatter of sailplanes already launched for any obvious areas of lift. The obvious solution is to NOT allow any relaunch after a line break. This solution certainly discourages intentional line breakage by a pilot who is not happy with his launch or who just wants to be the last pilot to launch. However, there is very real possibility that the line may have been weakened by a previous line cross during launch phase or even when the timer was tapping down the chute after a previous launch. In this instance, the pilot who suffered the line break would be unfairly penalized for a problem that he was not responsible for. This hardly seems fair, particularly for an unfortunate pilot who may have traveled a fair distance to compete over a full weekend of flying. For better or worse, this no relaunch rule also discriminates against larger, heavier sailplanes. One possible solution might be to automatically bump the pilot to the next flight group. But what if this happens in the last flight group for the round? Or, what if more than one line break happens in the same flight group and there is only one extra winch? Maybe a quick retrieve of an already been launched winch for the relaunch? Should there be a time limit for when the relaunch must happen? What would that time be? Or should this be at the discretion of the launch master? It sure slows down a contest to have everyone land for a mass relaunch which makes that an unpopular solution. What about a compromise to allow one line break per day, with the provision that in the opinion of the launch master that there has not been an intentional attempt to break the line? Or??? RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format DeleteReplyForwardMove... RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
That is the way it is traditionally done in the OVSS, but where you are most likely to see line break action is in the last group with the strongest pilots, and that round is always filled so there will never be an empty slot to allow someone in. Chicago SOAR always restrings its winches with fresh #290 before a OVSS weekend. At 05:18 PM 5/16/2005, Jim Monaco wrote: I suggest that the order of the groups for seeded MOM send the lower seeds up first, then if a flight is delayed you get a tougher group rather than an easier group. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
Normally, I kind of keep to the back of the tree line but this is one of my few hot buttons-launching systems. FAI has a method, not good for us. I have proposed for years that we in AMA scheduled TD events use a winch system with some kind of limit device (sensor) other than the winch line. It could be motor current, it could be line tension, it could be power/second used or a bunch of combinations. Just so I don't ramble any more (I think you get the idea), if the winch system limited some parameter that kept the line from breaking under tension, then all line breaks belong to the club, not the pilot. This could then always be a relight for the group and no need for backup winches. I think all of our equipment would last a lot longer, both launch and flying equipment. Although this is not a prime concern to the competition minded, it could help those in the sportsman classes as well as the club treasury. Mike Wade does our winches as a club member but we still have to pay him for his trouble just like anyone else. I am not sure what the cost is/winch/year but my guess is we could have a couple more winches by now making MOM with club winches easier. With todays electronics, a controller should be able to be done for a reasonable amount (I think reasonable would be under $150-200). Making some noise Wadayathink? On 5/16/05, pfsiegel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would like to throw this topic out to the soaring exchange to see if there is any consensus of opinion on policy concerning winch line breaks during launch, particularly during man on man competition. What would be a good standard policy for line breaks that could be universally adopted for a contest series like the OVSS? Let's assume that there is an extra winch that is available for relaunch if a line break occurs. If during launch there is a line break during a mass launch or even during a slightly staggered launch, then an unfair advantage can be gained by the pilot who experienced the line break. Before any subsequent relaunch from the extra winch during the same round, the delay in that relaunch could allow the pilot to observe the scatter of sailplanes already launched for any obvious areas of lift. The obvious solution is to NOT allow any relaunch after a line break. This solution certainly discourages intentional line breakage by a pilot who is not happy with his launch or who just wants to be the last pilot to launch. However, there is very real possibility that the line may have been weakened by a previous line cross during launch phase or even when the timer was tapping down the chute after a previous launch. In this instance, the pilot who suffered the line break would be unfairly penalized for a problem that he was not responsible for. This hardly seems fair, particularly for an unfortunate pilot who may have traveled a fair distance to compete over a full weekend of flying. For better or worse, this no relaunch rule also discriminates against larger, heavier sailplanes. One possible solution might be to automatically bump the pilot to the next flight group. But what if this happens in the last flight group for the round? Or, what if more than one line break happens in the same flight group and there is only one extra winch? Maybe a quick retrieve of an already been launched winch for the relaunch? Should there be a time limit for when the relaunch must happen? What would that time be? Or should this be at the discretion of the launch master? It sure slows down a contest to have everyone land for a mass relaunch which makes that an unpopular solution. What about a compromise to allow one line break per day, with the provision that in the opinion of the launch master that there has not been an intentional attempt to break the line? Or??? RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jack Iafret Home and Hobbies Acc't. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
At 04:47 PM 5/16/2005, pfsiegel wrote: What about a compromise to allow one line break per day, with the provision that in the opinion of the launch master that there has not been an intentional attempt to break the line? Or??? Here's another compromise that I thought about at one time, but never posted. I may have talked to TK about it on one of our many car trips to or from an OVSS contest. (although I really hate mentioning this stuff one week before the series. Better off discussed post series, and perhaps limited to the OVSS yahoo group with the guys who fly the series.) Allow one line break a day. Additional line breaks in future rounds are allowed a re-launch, but cost you 30 seconds off the task time for the round. More than two line breaks in a flight group, the entire group has to relaunch, but those line breaks count and penalties are applied if applicable for those pilots (i.e. it wasn't their first one). If a pilot breaks the line on the relaunch, the flight counts and the 30 second penalty is applied. Just a suggestion. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
Complete relauch is the fairest, but any relight works.competitive edge hasn't ever proven to have caused a win. Complete relaunch is the fairest, but in fact a single relaunch has never ever resulted in the relauncher winning a contest. There's been plenty of chat about its 'possibility' or 'potential' but the reality is unless you know some one who isa crook that we fly with a lot, no one would bother to break a line for some advantage. It could be done doesn't mean it will be done. I was leading a contest recently in Australia, broke a line, relite and that line broke. My intention was to seal the deal by tricking them into finding the air for me thatI had managed to find all daybut I was hoist by my own petard. :-) If the contest has a no pop off or no line break rule, I ain't driv'n :-) I go to fly :-) Gordy
Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
Oh Gord Mister, Granted, I do not travel in the exalted circles that you travel, BUT I Have Seen, and so have a few others concerned with this subject, watch the Late launcher / re lighter on purpose, walk away with the win after an opps LINE Break, ...It Has happened, maybe not within the OVSS, then again maybe so... Do not ask me who, do not ask me when, just know that it has happened, and it was apparent. Thanks for sharing your war stories, I enjoy them Obviously, its a skill not to develope Mark Has the right idea, I will wait and see form whence it goes.. J At 06:11 PM 5/16/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Complete relauch is the fairest, but any relight works. competitive edge hasn't ever proven to have caused a win. Complete relaunch is the fairest, but in fact a single relaunch has never ever resulted in the relauncher winning a contest. There's been plenty of chat about its 'possibility' or 'potential' but the reality is unless you know some one who is a crook that we fly with a lot, no one would bother to break a line for some advantage. It could be done doesn't mean it will be done. I was leading a contest recently in Australia, broke a line, relite and that line broke. My intention was to seal the deal by tricking them into finding the air for me that I had managed to find all daybut I was hoist by my own petard. :-) If the contest has a no pop off or no line break rule, I ain't driv'n :-) I go to fly :-) Gordy Jack Strother Granger, IN LSF V #117 //home.comcast.net/~strotherbj
Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
I have gathered the data and present the followingFor what it's worth. Most contest start at 9:00 am (AT BEST) in an effort to increase readiness and decrease line breaks Contestants should be allowed to register and have a 3 min. MAX test flight; recorded on the score card less points. (timer must retrieve the line during the flight..It takes about that long to go get the chute an walk back) This flight would not be your god given rightthe window would be open from 8:15 to 8:45 (sorry about your luck 1st come 1st serve) In lieu of this semi impractical thought given socialization the night before and pressing the VOLUNTEERS we move on. Round one: Bring em all down Two-final : I like Jims suggestion of reverse order with the broken line moving up. finals: (like a track meet) you get one free the other you fly out. bring em down till we get a fair launch.(two breaks total for the contest) I have little pity for line breaks. This is a game/sport/event of assessing conditions and abilities.One of the better lessons I got from my mentor and bud Capt. Jack was a an afternoon where I pinched the tow ring between my fingers and learned how to tap the pedal with out the ring being pull from my fingers.A GRASSHOPPER If you got the biggest plane the heaviest foot you better be ready to max out from 75 ft.(it's all part of the game,how much ballast,wind) In (your) shorts.If you want to get the maxx launch bring your BALLS to the line and blame no one but yourself when you gotta come fly with me in the Fisher Price group.. P.S. The BBQ for Nats looks better than ever. - Original Message - From: James V. Bacus [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Soaring Soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy? That is the way it is traditionally done in the OVSS, but where you are most likely to see line break action is in the last group with the strongest pilots, and that round is always filled so there will never be an empty slot to allow someone in. Chicago SOAR always restrings its winches with fresh #290 before a OVSS weekend. At 05:18 PM 5/16/2005, Jim Monaco wrote: I suggest that the order of the groups for seeded MOM send the lower seeds up first, then if a flight is delayed you get a tougher group rather than an easier group. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
Most all the OVSS winches now use the 290# line. It is very hard to break. When out practicing, or playing, I haven't broken a line in a couple of years. I have broken lines at contests, including the NATS, I don't launch any differently there than normally, but the line at a contest is sometimes questionable, was crossed and dragged by the timer tapping down or a host of other mysteries that has caused it to be weak in just one small spot. While I guess it's possible that guys might try to purposely break a line, it seems a stretch to me (pun intended), moreover, if the line is good, it's hard or maybe not possible to break. When we stagger launches in seeded MOM, the high score is always launching first, the last guy always has a slight advantage, even then, lift is not often apparent right off launch. I suggest a time limit from first guy to last guy, maybe 2 minutes, but launch master uses his head If it's longer, you get bumped to the next round where it's tougher. If it's the last flight group, move fast. More than one break, everybody comes down. Seems like this is pretty much what we've been doing to date. It really sucks to be penalized for a line break, particularly when nearly every time, it's a weak line that causes the break. If someone has travelled a great distance to be essentially tossed out for a line break, it ain't so fun anymore. There's enough dumb things I can do to blow a contest, purposeful line breaks aren't in my bag of tricks to find the air. I don't believe that most pilots play that way; bad booga booga, not likely to really work, and might have the result Gordy got, and richly deserved, if he was really playing that way. We've done ok to date, seems to me. I agree that we don't want to regulate the fun out of contests, but if I break a line, I expect a way to get in the air to fly, that flight group or the next. Hey, the stakes are really high!! My .02 Barry On May 16, 2005, at 5:47 PM, pfsiegel wrote: I would like to throw this topic out to the soaring exchange to see if there is any consensus of opinion on policy concerning winch line breaks during launch, particularly during man on man competition. What would be a good standard policy for line breaks that could be universally adopted for a contest series like the OVSS? Let's assume that there is an extra winch that is available for relaunch if a line break occurs. If during launch there is a line break during a mass launch or even during a slightly staggered launch, then an unfair advantage can be gained by the pilot who experienced the line break. Before any subsequent relaunch from the extra winch during the same round, the delay in that relaunch could allow the pilot to observe the scatter of sailplanes already launched for any obvious areas of lift. The obvious solution is to NOT allow any relaunch after a line break. This solution certainly discourages intentional line breakage by a pilot who is not happy with his launch or who just wants to be the last pilot to launch. However, there is very real possibility that the line may have been weakened by a previous line cross during launch phase or even when the timer was tapping down the chute after a previous launch. In this instance, the pilot who suffered the line break would be unfairly penalized for a problem that he was not responsible for. This hardly seems fair, particularly for an unfortunate pilot who may have traveled a fair distance to compete over a full weekend of flying. For better or worse, this no relaunch rule also discriminates against larger, heavier sailplanes. One possible solution might be to automatically bump the pilot to the next flight group. But what if this happens in the last flight group for the round? Or, what if more than one line break happens in the same flight group and there is only one extra winch? Maybe a quick retrieve of an already been launched winch for the relaunch? Should there be a time limit for when the relaunch must happen? What would that time be? Or should this be at the discretion of the launch master? It sure slows down a contest to have everyone land for a mass relaunch which makes that an unpopular solution. What about a compromise to allow one line break per day, with the provision that in the opinion of the launch master that there has not been an intentional attempt to break the line? Or??? RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned
Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
We have some very wise CD's in the OVSS, and I am not worried about this issue a bit. Which ever way we go, it is the same for everyone. Let's try to maximize the fun next weekend, I am really looking forward to flying with everybody. At 07:58 PM 5/16/2005, Barry Andersen wrote: Hey, the stakes are really high!! Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
I like this idea a lot. It wont knock you out of the contest for more then one line break, but it will cost you something if it keeps happening. In addition, I like to reserve the weakest winches for the alternate re launches and usually don't bother using a battery charger on the back ups either. I will probably use these ideas for our Bob Steele Memorials Sunday events Lets see how it works. Mike Remus LOFT Glider Club Fort Wayne IN LSF Level 5 #112 Remember; Think small. Big ideas upset others! On Mon, 16 May 2005 18:09:13 -0500 James V. Bacus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At 04:47 PM 5/16/2005, pfsiegel wrote: What about a compromise to allow one line break per day, with the provision that in the opinion of the launch master that there has not been an intentional attempt to break the line? Or??? Here's another compromise that I thought about at one time, but never posted. I may have talked to TK about it on one of our many car trips to or from an OVSS contest. (although I really hate mentioning this stuff one week before the series. Better off discussed post series, and perhaps limited to the OVSS yahoo group with the guys who fly the series.) Allow one line break a day. Additional line breaks in future rounds are allowed a re-launch, but cost you 30 seconds off the task time for the round. More than two line breaks in a flight group, the entire group has to relaunch, but those line breaks count and penalties are applied if applicable for those pilots (i.e. it wasn't their first one). If a pilot breaks the line on the relaunch, the flight counts and the 30 second penalty is applied. Just a suggestion. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
On Monday 16 May 2005 07:37 pm, you wrote: I have gathered the data and present the followingFor what it's worth. Most contest start at 9:00 am (AT BEST) in an effort to increase readiness and decrease line breaks Contestants should be allowed to register and have a 3 min. MAX test flight; recorded on the score card less points. (timer must retrieve the line during the flight..It takes about that long to go get the chute an walk back) This flight would not be your god given rightthe window would be open from 8:15 to 8:45 (sorry about your luck 1st come 1st serve) In lieu of this semi impractical thought given socialization the night before and pressing the VOLUNTEERS we move on. Great suggestion for day one of two day contests for those road warriors who need to shake off the dust from a long drive in! I've always felt guilty asking for a trim flight but I guess that's the penalty for not being able to fly as often as I like, just a bit nervous on that first launch. Round one: Bring em all down Two-final : I like Jims suggestion of reverse order with the broken line moving up. finals: (like a track meet) you get one free the other you fly out. bring em down till we get a fair launch.(two breaks total for the contest) Second this idea. I have little pity for line breaks. This is a game/sport/event of assessing conditions and abilities.One of the better lessons I got from my mentor and bud Capt. Jack was a an afternoon where I pinched the tow ring between my fingers and learned how to tap the pedal with out the ring being pull from my fingers.A GRASSHOPPER If you got the biggest plane the heaviest foot you better be ready to max out from 75 ft.(it's all part of the game,how much ballast,wind) In (your) shorts.If you want to get the maxx launch bring your BALLS to the line and blame no one but yourself when you gotta come fly with me in the Fisher Price group. Sounds like a familiar group to me... . P.S. The BBQ for Nats looks better than ever. Got a new tent and screened in canopy..lets hope for warm, dry and no skeeters! (Yeah, right, it's the midwest, I forgot!) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] OVSS...line break policy?
I like Barry's thinking. The majority of line breaks I have seen have been the equipments fault.Even in stiff wind #290 is very hard to break. It is not that difficult to watch a launch and determine if it is excessive line tension that breaks the line. Usually much after 60 degrees. After 60 degrees, a launch should be flown out. And if the recovery launch is more than 45 seconds after last launch a re-flight of the whole group ensues. Steve Meyer SOAR LSF IV At 07:58 PM 5/16/2005, Barry Andersen wrote: Most all the OVSS winches now use the 290# line. It is very hard to break. When out practicing, or playing, I haven't broken a line in a couple of years. I have broken lines at contests, including the NATS, I don't launch any differently there than normally, but the line at a contest is sometimes questionable, was crossed and dragged by the timer tapping down or a host of other mysteries that has caused it to be weak in just one small spot. While I guess it's possible that guys might try to purposely break a line, it seems a stretch to me (pun intended), moreover, if the line is good, it's hard or maybe not possible to break. When we stagger launches in seeded MOM, the high score is always launching first, the last guy always has a slight advantage, even then, lift is not often apparent right off launch. I suggest a time limit from first guy to last guy, maybe 2 minutes, but launch master uses his head If it's longer, you get bumped to the next round where it's tougher. If it's the last flight group, move fast. More than one break, everybody comes down. Seems like this is pretty much what we've been doing to date. It really sucks to be penalized for a line break, particularly when nearly every time, it's a weak line that causes the break. If someone has travelled a great distance to be essentially tossed out for a line break, it ain't so fun anymore. There's enough dumb things I can do to blow a contest, purposeful line breaks aren't in my bag of tricks to find the air. I don't believe that most pilots play that way; bad booga booga, not likely to really work, and might have the result Gordy got, and richly deserved, if he was really playing that way. We've done ok to date, seems to me. I agree that we don't want to regulate the fun out of contests, but if I break a line, I expect a way to get in the air to fly, that flight group or the next. Hey, the stakes are really high!! My .02 Barry On May 16, 2005, at 5:47 PM, pfsiegel wrote: I would like to throw this topic out to the soaring exchange to see if there is any consensus of opinion on policy concerning winch line breaks during launch, particularly during man on man competition. What would be a good standard policy for line breaks that could be universally adopted for a contest series like the OVSS? RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
