Re: [RCSE] A good reason to use 5 cells
Hi Sheldon! On Dec 30, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Sheldon-YNT uDesign wrote: Lastly, I just gotta ask the question...How many pilots out there can really, I mean REALLY, tell the difference??? Does it make THAT much difference if your servo moves .0x seconds faster? Can you REALLY feel or see it? Yes. I have a Pike Superior that never felt quite right to me. It felt sluggish and I felt I was behind the plane. After Visalia, I switched the stab servo (which was a JR DS368) for a Volz Micro Maxx. Problem solved. The plane now feels distinctly more lively. Do you REALLY think THAT is going to make you the next WC or get you down on time and on the spot??? No, but the plane handles much better than before and is more enjoyable to fly. The proper approach to get more powerful or faster servos, IMHO...Buy more powerful or faster servos to begin with!!! Exactly. It never ceases to amaze me that some people will put over $1500 into an aircraft (power, glider, heli) and then try to save a few dollars on the servos! Amen to that! Same goes for batteries. For these high end planes, it makes sense to install the very finest gear available. That's my $.02 ~ Happy New Year to all! Happy New Year! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] A good reason to use 5 cells
Dittos Bill. Don't guys run even bigger packs on individual sets of servos on IMAC ships? Marc Sent with Wireless Sync from Verizon Wireless Original Message From: Bill's Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 12/29/05 11:27 am To: soaring@airage.com soaring@airage.com Subj: Re: [RCSE] A good reason to use 5 cells [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Barry is a very intelligent guy so likely forgot to mention that he's got a voltage regulator between his 5 cells and the system to protect things. A voltage regulator insures that your digital servos and RX don't get too much of a good thing, Every digital servo that I am aware of, and I run most of them from JR281's to 8611's and Futaba 9252's, CAN take 6 volts without a problem. Old wives tale. 7.2 volts is a different thing. But I love this myth about needing a regulator with 5-cell packs. I have run 5-cell packs (Nicad NiMH) in everything from D/HLG to molded TD to helis to 40% giant scale aerobatic planes for several years, ALL with digitals of various sizes, with not a single problem. Run a regulator if it makes you feel better, but it is totally unnecessary. And even in my big aerobatic planes I cannot tell the difference between flight #1 and #5 (when I charge). The very worst thing that you may observe is a slight jitter when you first turn on. Lasts about 15 seconds as the surface charge goes away. And to the point about stalling, etc. causing a need for a regulator. Sorry, the regulator does nothing there. A stalled servo pulls what a stalled servo pulls, irrespective of a regulator. Most OEM plugs are rated at 3 amps continuos (means no real rise in temp at that amperage) which is well below the full stall current for most glider digitals, and right at stall current for say an 8611 or 9252. WEM RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] A good reason to use 5 cells
Here's my $.02 on the whole thing... First, just about all modern-day equipment, digital or analog, can handle the nominal 6V that we associate with a 5-cell pack. That being said... There are 2 problems with running a 5-cell pack: 1) A 5-cell pack is nominally rated at 6.0V BUT...Hot off the charger it is substantially more than the nominal 6.0V (check it some time for yourself). That is where the jitters you hear about come in AND it does subject your system components to some pretty harsh treatment. Fortunately it doesn't last very long BUT it is over-stressing your components to some degree. 2) A 5-cell pack, with the same mah rating as a 4-cell pack, will provide LESS flight time than the 4-cell pack...PERIOD. 5-cells gives you more voltage, when you give your equipment more voltage (V), it draws more current (A). It'll make that servo seem faster and more powerful but the cost is in current draw, which saps your battery more, and yes, it might shorten your servo life a tad. Keep in mind, particularly with analog servos, that those little tiny gears are typically not designed for that extra oomph that you're getting either (keep spares on-hand G). Lastly, I just gotta ask the question...How many pilots out there can really, I mean REALLY, tell the difference??? Does it make THAT much difference if your servo moves .0x seconds faster? Can you REALLY feel or see it? Do you REALLY think THAT is going to make you the next WC or get you down on time and on the spot??? The proper approach to get more powerful or faster servos, IMHO...Buy more powerful or faster servos to begin with!!! It never ceases to amaze me that some people will put over $1500 into an aircraft (power, glider, heli) and then try to save a few dollars on the servos! That's my $.02 ~ Happy New Year to all! -Sheldon- YNT uDesign A Soaring Nationals Supporter -Original Message- From: Marc Gellart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 11:48 AM To: Bill's Email; soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] A good reason to use 5 cells Dittos Bill. Don't guys run even bigger packs on individual sets of servos on IMAC ships? Marc Sent with Wireless Sync from Verizon Wireless Original Message From: Bill's Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 12/29/05 11:27 am To: soaring@airage.com soaring@airage.com Subj: Re: [RCSE] A good reason to use 5 cells [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Barry is a very intelligent guy so likely forgot to mention that he's got a voltage regulator between his 5 cells and the system to protect things. A voltage regulator insures that your digital servos and RX don't get too much of a good thing, Every digital servo that I am aware of, and I run most of them from JR281's to 8611's and Futaba 9252's, CAN take 6 volts without a problem. Old wives tale. 7.2 volts is a different thing. But I love this myth about needing a regulator with 5-cell packs. I have run 5-cell packs (Nicad NiMH) in everything from D/HLG to molded TD to helis to 40% giant scale aerobatic planes for several years, ALL with digitals of various sizes, with not a single problem. Run a regulator if it makes you feel better, but it is totally unnecessary. And even in my big aerobatic planes I cannot tell the difference between flight #1 and #5 (when I charge). The very worst thing that you may observe is a slight jitter when you first turn on. Lasts about 15 seconds as the surface charge goes away. And to the point about stalling, etc. causing a need for a regulator. Sorry, the regulator does nothing there. A stalled servo pulls what a stalled servo pulls, irrespective of a regulator. Most OEM plugs are rated at 3 amps continuos (means no real rise in temp at that amperage) which is well below the full stall current for most glider digitals, and right at stall current for say an 8611 or 9252. WEM RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] A good reason to use 5 cells
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Barry is a very intelligent guy so likely forgot to mention that he's got a voltage regulator between his 5 cells and the system to protect things. A voltage regulator insures that your digital servos and RX don't get too much of a good thing, Every digital servo that I am aware of, and I run most of them from JR281's to 8611's and Futaba 9252's, CAN take 6 volts without a problem. Old wives tale. 7.2 volts is a different thing. But I love this myth about needing a regulator with 5-cell packs. I have run 5-cell packs (Nicad NiMH) in everything from D/HLG to molded TD to helis to 40% giant scale aerobatic planes for several years, ALL with digitals of various sizes, with not a single problem. Run a regulator if it makes you feel better, but it is totally unnecessary. And even in my big aerobatic planes I cannot tell the difference between flight #1 and #5 (when I charge). The very worst thing that you may observe is a slight jitter when you first turn on. Lasts about 15 seconds as the surface charge goes away. And to the point about stalling, etc. causing a need for a regulator. Sorry, the regulator does nothing there. A stalled servo pulls what a stalled servo pulls, irrespective of a regulator. Most OEM plugs are rated at 3 amps continuos (means no real rise in temp at that amperage) which is well below the full stall current for most glider digitals, and right at stall current for say an 8611 or 9252. WEM RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] A good reason to use 5 cells
Guys, I've been running 5 cells for at least 10 years now. Faster is better... more available torque is better. I have never seen a servo that moves faster than my thumb. If my servo is faster, I can move in (closer to the servo) on the output arm (or longer horn at the Control surface), providing better mechanical advantage or leverage (equating to more power at the control surface). My point is we need to be responsible about our servo and linkage installs. I constantly see people running the longest servo output arm, and the shortest flap horn - and then dialing down the throw in the radio... you're gonna blow servos up all the time doing that. I try to set up my linkage, so that I what I require as max travel will be accomplished with close to the maximum settings in the radio. In other words - I'll use percentages here and flap as a control surface - my flap travels 90 degrees at 100% throw as designated in the radio. If I have to back off on that setting say back to 50% - that means I'm working the servo twice as hard. Again - that's a study in how to blow up servos... the control surface will move really fast though Don't let people fool you into saying that less torque or slower servos are better we are always behind the model... slow the servo down and you'll get even farther behind the model 2 1/2 cents worth... send the check to... D __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: Re: [RCSE] A good reason to use 5 cells
Thank goodness for some sanity here... Anyone that wants less, I want in my flight group. Marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] A good reason to use 5 cells
On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 11:14:13AM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: |In fact we seldom run any specific voltage for a consistent period of |time in our use of the models. Well, you probably do if you're using a voltage regulator or a BEC. But beyond that, you're right -- a 4 cell pack will start at 5.6 volts and drop to about 4.8 volts (at which point you'd probably better be thinking about charging sometime soon. You may have 30% of your capacity left, but you don't want to push it.) |A voltage regulator insures that your digital servos and RX don't get |too much of a good thing, and yet keeps the optimum voltage maintained |for not only performance but more importantly OPERATION! Some digital |servos need to have a minimum of more than 3.6v to operate at all. And most receivers will peter out at voltages around that point as well (though there are a few low voltage RXs meant for single cell LiPo use.) If your (4 cell) battery pack is at 3.6 volts, either 1) it's really close to totally dead, or 2) one of your cells shorted out. #2 is rare -- it's more common for a cell to fail open or to at least develop a really high internal resistance. Fortunately, that usually happens gradually and to older batteries, so some battery maintenance will detect it and take care of it in most cases. If you had a 5 cell pack and it was giving 4.8 volts, it's just as dead as the 4 cell pack at 3.6 volts. Sure, it may still run your RX and servos, but it's going to be down to 3.6 volts and lower within a very few minutes ... perhaps in less than one minute. Personally, if safely/reliablity is what you're after, I'd suggest going for two smaller 4 cell RX packs rather than one bigger 5 cell RX pack. (Now, if you want more speed and/or more torque, then go for five cells if your gear can handle it. But it probably costs you more in reliability than it gains.) |Try your system with a three cell pack to find where your loads take |the system and your servos. So using 5 cells with a voltage regulator |can provide a level of safety and keep your servos operating at the |torque and speeds you paid for listed on the box. Isn't the idea of a 5 cell pack to get your servos operating *beyond* the torques and speeds listed on the box? |Those who use 5 cells without a regulator can be torturing your |system (5 cells peaked exceed 6 volts) 5 cells peaked is right at 7.0 volts. If your 5 cell pack drops to 6.0 volts, that's 1.2 volts per cell, and your pack is likely to be over 50% discharged at that point. |that means your system...connectors, switch, voltage regulator in |your RX, the power pin lands on the board of your RX connecting |all the servos to the power, wing connectors, servo amplifier and |servo motor brushes are getting one heck of a power jolt at |first... The switch, pins, and connectors don't care signifigantly about 4 cells vs. 5 cells. Sure, 5 cells will give you higher currents and therefore more resistive heating, but that's pretty much insigifigant for a RX pack unless something is very wrong (like having some stalled servos or a short circuit.) (Now, the electronics, voltage regulators, RX, amplifiers -- they may care.) |Its just about wire and the energy its submitted to, low power, low |glow :-) Personally, the only thing I want glowing on my plane is the LEDs I put on it so I can see it at night. That, and if it's a glow plane, well, the glow plug is allowed to glow, though you can't see it. Anything else glowing is probably a bad thing. (A few sparks in a brushed motor -- that's permissible as well. But it's not really glowing ...) -- Doug McLaren, [EMAIL PROTECTED] An unbreakable toy is useful for breaking other toys. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] A good reason to use 5 cells
On Dec 29, 2005, at 11:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Barry is a very intelligent guy so likely forgot to mention that he's got a voltage regulator between his 5 cells and the system to protect things.Well, I think Gordy is trying to be nice in his own way. I know I'm not running a voltage regulator and glad to hear validation from a couple of soaring lightweights that they don't either. Anyone who's flown much with me knows that intelligence doesn't preclude doing really dumb things with a sailplane.Barry
Re: [RCSE] A good reason to use 5 cells
Wheww... I'm glad to hear that Barry, because we know Salesmen are rarely 100% correct. And in this case, Gordy is 50% correct or is that 50% wrong? :-) Steve Meyer SOAR, LSF IV At 06:22 PM 12/29/2005, Barry Andersen wrote: On Dec 29, 2005, at 11:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Barry is a very intelligent guy so likely forgot to mention that he's got a voltage regulator between his 5 cells and the system to protect things. Well, I think Gordy is trying to be nice in his own way. I know I'm not running a voltage regulator and glad to hear validation from a couple of soaring lightweights that they don't either. Anyone who's flown much with me knows that intelligence doesn't preclude doing really dumb things with a sailplane. Barry
Re: [RCSE] A good reason to use 5 cells
At 12:15 PM 12/29/2005, Daryl Perkins wrote: Guys, I've been running 5 cells for at least 10 years now. Faster is better... more available torque is better. ... I also have been running five cell packs, but only in my Escapes. They just fit better so why add lead when you can add power. The extra speed is nice. I am a true believer in what Daryl stated, he was able to put into words what I believe and practice, ... well... except maybe about my thumbs being faster than the servo. :-) If I can make a five cell pack fit I will use it. Now I have to figure out what Barry sold me Steve Meyer SOAR, LSF IV RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] A good reason to use 5 cells
ROFL for a number of reasons!!! ;-)) At 06:22 PM 12/29/2005, Barry Andersen wrote: On Dec 29, 2005, at 11:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Barry is a very intelligent guy so likely forgot to mention that he's got a voltage regulator between his 5 cells and the system to protect things. Well, I think Gordy is trying to be nice in his own way. I know I'm not running a voltage regulator and glad to hear validation from a couple of soaring lightweights that they don't either. Anyone who's flown much with me knows that intelligence doesn't preclude doing really dumb things with a sailplane. Barry Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537 LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net
