Re: Scene crash on startup - any advice
Thank you both Peter and Matt for your lengthy replies. I've found your replies informative and interesting. I am trying best possible to work to best practices and feel a little reassured! I am not doing much else other than laying out the models in the scene. I do have some geo in there (landscape) and some models I have made local. In summary the scene is a large camera move that flies through a village that is fairly dense with houses. I have built 3 variations of house with windows/doors/chimneys and so it is modular so I can avoid any repetition and build a custom house. This inevitably means I have reference models inside reference models. However through research I have not gone more than 2 levels deep with them and arranged the embedded ref models inside nulls for any SRT transforms. All models have master files that I have setup and refer back to when I make any changes. I think where I have gone wrong is if I want to make another variation of a house on the fly, I have taken a house model and made the top part of the hierarchy local and duplicated sub parts which are still referenced in. In doing this it has prompted me to share or copy material libraries. If I want another variation. I should build it in master file and bring it back in. I have done this 4/5 times in say 40 models, so I know where to fix it. Another workflow I could be using (should be using?) is stand ins. I did do a test render on Friday without using them and with a basic lightning setup up it munched it up. I am not overly concerned about the scene being to heavy now. I am unsure of this crossover as to when I should be using standins verses ref models. This is a separate conversation I am sure. I also have a deadline looming and need the darn shot rendered! Thanks, Jon On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Matt Lind speye...@hotmail.com wrote: A scene size of 53 MB containing mostly referenced models indicates there is still a lot of data, such as animation (FCurves) or data applied on top of the referenced models in model deltas, still in the scene. the first thing to try is rolling back your scene to a previous version (including referenced models) if you have been using source control. The done fixing hidden cluster error indicates a geometry problem. With a scene containing many referenced models, it's likely one or more models was imported into the scene as a referenced model, modified in some way that applied a dependency which needs geometry information, and the referenced model was later edited offline outside the scene. Next time the scene opens, Softimage is surprised because the referenced model is in a different state than the last time the scene was saved and has all this dependency data it doesn't know what to do with, so mayhem breaks out. For example, if you applied an object-to-cluster constraint, the constraint operator has a dependency on the cluster. If you delete the cluster from the referenced model outside the scene, the next time the scene opens and uses that model, Softimage will see the constraint operator and try to connect to a now non-existent cluster, then get confused. There are some topology operators which generate hidden clusters behind the curtains from user view which are used as a scratchpad for calculations. It's very possible the above scenario has occurred and the operator's cluster in question cannot reconnect to it's dependencies because one or more of it's inputs has disappeared from the model being changed outside the scene. One test is to open each referenced model locally in an empty scene. Check the script log before doing any work on each model, if you get the error message again, then you've found the problem. Freeze its modeling construction history using Freeze M, then export to update the .emdl. If you know of constraints or other operators, such as object-to-cluster, and have knowingly deleted the cluster, then try recreating the cluster to satisfy the scene next time it is opened. If all the models import successfully into empty scenes, then reopen the original scene and see if the error still occurs. If it does, then the problem is likely caused by data local to the scene and not in a referenced model. Data in model deltas is considered local to the scene, not the model. However, it's unlikely the problem is in model deltas if it's giving you 'hidden cluster' errors, but in the rare chance it is, check the 'removed items' section of the delta and cross reference it with the other categories for dangling entries. Every item appearing in the removed items list will have an associated entry in another category of the model delta. for example, if you import the referenced model, change it's position, then undo that action, there will be entries in the 'stored positions' category to record the position change, and an associated entry in the 'removed items' category to undo that position change (All the
Re: Scene crash on startup - any advice
Hi Peter, ha ha I'm happy to hear both workflows! each scenario is different seeings I explained more about the shot and that it needs rendering! Localizing everything has been on my mind! seeings that the models are locked versions. I have named all my materials (I did a pass of going through each master model file converting my shaders to arnold + tweaks and deleting unused materials through the external files tool) but do confess from one house model to the next I shall have duplicate materials that will be essentially connecting the same texture file. Particularly the wood texture that services all the wooden beams that are a feature of the houses. I have a lot of material libraries and am sure I could consolidate this to a global material library. I shall be kicking out multiple passes but more separating out objects with mattes rather than a set of channels to recomp. I am finding I am getting good results from Arnold and don't overly want to complicate things nor have the time. A decent compositior would tear my head off for saying this I'm sure! I have held up on the scene until later today. I felt it be productive that I light another scene (seeings I can open it!!) besides it made me feel better! I'm gonna check out the scntoc manager later but back at work/uni tomorrow so failing this I shall save a reference version of the scene then localize it all. Thanks again, Jon On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 11:17 AM, pete...@skynet.be wrote: Well, I’m going to suggest the exact opposite of before [image: Smile]. Why don’t you try and localize EVERYTHING to the scene (did you get to open it when offloading the models?) – make sure all geometry is frozen and delete all unneeded clusters. and do a good cleanup of the materials - assuming you have named you materials it’s just a matter of selecting all corresponding parts and assign them to the same material (one single wood material, one single metal material,... for the whole of the scene) Also remove unused materials and clips – and do it repeatedly – it never hurts to click those buttons too often. You can also merge all objects with the same material (eg all chimneys, all rivets,...) which can drastically reduce the amount of objects without resorting to clusters. If you just want to render a single beauty pass – you can merge complete houses - you’ll end up with clusters and cluster materials – which is no good for working with passes. It’s basically consolidating your scene, flattening it down, removing all dependencies. This makes it ‘uneditable’ – but since you are ready to render that’s fine. It’s actually not uncommon for film pipelines to include this as an automated step when sending off the scene to render. (saving it as a separate render only version – that only serves that purpose: getting your renders out.) *From:* Jon Hunt jonathan.m.h...@gmail.com *Sent:* Sunday, August 03, 2014 10:34 AM *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com *Subject:* Re: Scene crash on startup - any advice Thank you both Peter and Matt for your lengthy replies. I've found your replies informative and interesting. I am trying best possible to work to best practices and feel a little reassured! I am not doing much else other than laying out the models in the scene. I do have some geo in there (landscape) and some models I have made local. In summary the scene is a large camera move that flies through a village that is fairly dense with houses. I have built 3 variations of house with windows/doors/chimneys and so it is modular so I can avoid any repetition and build a custom house. This inevitably means I have reference models inside reference models. However through research I have not gone more than 2 levels deep with them and arranged the embedded ref models inside nulls for any SRT transforms. All models have master files that I have setup and refer back to when I make any changes. I think where I have gone wrong is if I want to make another variation of a house on the fly, I have taken a house model and made the top part of the hierarchy local and duplicated sub parts which are still referenced in. In doing this it has prompted me to share or copy material libraries. If I want another variation. I should build it in master file and bring it back in. I have done this 4/5 times in say 40 models, so I know where to fix it. Another workflow I could be using (should be using?) is stand ins. I did do a test render on Friday without using them and with a basic lightning setup up it munched it up. I am not overly concerned about the scene being to heavy now. I am unsure of this crossover as to when I should be using standins verses ref models. This is a separate conversation I am sure. I also have a deadline looming and need the darn shot rendered! Thanks, Jon On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Matt Lind speye...@hotmail.com wrote: A scene size of 53 MB containing mostly referenced models
Re: Scene crash on startup - any advice
ha ha I'm happy to hear both workflows! each scenario is different seeings I explained more about the shot and that it needs rendering! think of it in photoshop terms: on one hand you work in layers, adjustment layers and groups – to be able to make modifications but at some point you flatten – all or part of it – to simplify, because you have to for certain things, for performance or to export the final version that’s used elsewhere – while keeping the layered version of course. Making one huge 3D scene where everything is interconnected, non-destructive, procedural, modifiable is great – especially while going through design changes – but at some point it can become counterproductive and consolidating things can be your way out. The balance between these two is not a simple black and white thing – no absolute rules. Sometimes you need a mixture of both, sometimes either extreme. And when you run into trouble on one end, it might be worth trying the opposite approach. I think it’s an important skill to acquire, to understand these strategies, to know when to simplify and consolidate and when not to – ideally before things start to fall apart . The photoshop analogy is far from perfect btw: flattening makes a file smaller and lighter. Localizing models is going to make the scene bigger I hope you get your shot/shots out – and can consider such things when things calm down. ... but do confess from one house model to the next I shall have duplicate materials that will be essentially connecting the same texture file. a few duplicate materials or a couple of libraries is far from a problem – if you kept an eye on things you’re fine. But I’ve run into scenes with thousands of unnamed materials, that are all just the same default phong. It’s always worth it to go over what you have done - the more you can clean up, the less bloat the software has to deal with. You’ll run into situations where this becomes the difference between being able to achieve what you’re after or not. About working in passes – again there’s no absolute rules. Sometimes you’re better off with passes and channels for absolutely everything, combining hundreds of passes in comp – sometimes a single pass and the odd mask or two. Afaik - the industry is moving a bit away again from multi-pass towards beauty rendering – in no small amount because of Arnold. But there’s still a lot to be said for being able to tweak in comp – and avoiding 3D re-renders. ... From: Jon Hunt Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2014 1:35 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Scene crash on startup - any advice Hi Peter, ha ha I'm happy to hear both workflows! each scenario is different seeings I explained more about the shot and that it needs rendering! Localizing everything has been on my mind! seeings that the models are locked versions. I have named all my materials (I did a pass of going through each master model file converting my shaders to arnold + tweaks and deleting unused materials through the external files tool) but do confess from one house model to the next I shall have duplicate materials that will be essentially connecting the same texture file. Particularly the wood texture that services all the wooden beams that are a feature of the houses. I have a lot of material libraries and am sure I could consolidate this to a global material library. I shall be kicking out multiple passes but more separating out objects with mattes rather than a set of channels to recomp. I am finding I am getting good results from Arnold and don't overly want to complicate things nor have the time. A decent compositior would tear my head off for saying this I'm sure! I have held up on the scene until later today. I felt it be productive that I light another scene (seeings I can open it!!) besides it made me feel better! I'm gonna check out the scntoc manager later but back at work/uni tomorrow so failing this I shall save a reference version of the scene then localize it all. Thanks again, Jon On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 11:17 AM, pete...@skynet.be wrote: Well, I’m going to suggest the exact opposite of before . Why don’t you try and localize EVERYTHING to the scene (did you get to open it when offloading the models?) – make sure all geometry is frozen and delete all unneeded clusters. and do a good cleanup of the materials - assuming you have named you materials it’s just a matter of selecting all corresponding parts and assign them to the same material (one single wood material, one single metal material,... for the whole of the scene) Also remove unused materials and clips – and do it repeatedly – it never hurts to click those buttons too often. You can also merge all objects with the same material (eg all chimneys, all rivets,...) which can drastically reduce the amount of objects without resorting to clusters. If you just want to render a single beauty pass – you can
Re: OT Maya: Spring Dynamics in Maya
We have to ask why do autodesk feel the need to add bonus tool. They should just come with the software. On 2 August 2014 01:22, Sebastien Sterling sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Will, Maya bonus tools might be what you are looking for (free addon for maya): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5oPTUHN-5U#t=67 Dynamic joints added in bonus tools 2013 Hope this helps. Give everyone at PB my best ;P On 1 August 2014 22:52, Jeremie Passerin gerem@gmail.com wrote: Hey Will, I think they attach rig to a simulated hair strand... I'm not quite sure but heard something like that. Also MT_springs = Gear Springs. It's part of the contribution from Helge to Gear. The code is open source by the way, so it shouldn't be too difficult to port it to Maya. Good luck in your research. Jeremie On 1 August 2014 14:12, Will Sharkey willjshar...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I posted this at maya_he3d google group but there is so little traffic, only 2 posts over there today and I think they were all from me! I wonder if you all could shed some light on spring dynamics in Maya, maybe something similar to mt springs or the cool spring solvers in gear. What are some good solutions or tools to achieve this? I noticed there is a Jiggle Deformer but that seems point based as opposed to an offset on a controller. Any information would be much appreciated. Thanks!
Re: OT Maya: Spring Dynamics in Maya
I always got the impression it was a support thing. Sort of like Gmail being in 'beta phase' for a decade. On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Ben Beckett nebbeck...@gmail.com wrote: We have to ask why do autodesk feel the need to add bonus tool. They should just come with the software. On 2 August 2014 01:22, Sebastien Sterling sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Will, Maya bonus tools might be what you are looking for (free addon for maya): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5oPTUHN-5U#t=67 Dynamic joints added in bonus tools 2013 Hope this helps. Give everyone at PB my best ;P On 1 August 2014 22:52, Jeremie Passerin gerem@gmail.com wrote: Hey Will, I think they attach rig to a simulated hair strand... I'm not quite sure but heard something like that. Also MT_springs = Gear Springs. It's part of the contribution from Helge to Gear. The code is open source by the way, so it shouldn't be too difficult to port it to Maya. Good luck in your research. Jeremie On 1 August 2014 14:12, Will Sharkey willjshar...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I posted this at maya_he3d google group but there is so little traffic, only 2 posts over there today and I think they were all from me! I wonder if you all could shed some light on spring dynamics in Maya, maybe something similar to mt springs or the cool spring solvers in gear. What are some good solutions or tools to achieve this? I noticed there is a Jiggle Deformer but that seems point based as opposed to an offset on a controller. Any information would be much appreciated. Thanks!
Re: OT Maya: Spring Dynamics in Maya
A strong indication that even devs working on it know that the software their evil overlords are hawking is worse then fucking dirt on the artist. On 4 August 2014 00:52, Ben Barker ben.bar...@gmail.com wrote: I always got the impression it was a support thing. Sort of like Gmail being in 'beta phase' for a decade. On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Ben Beckett nebbeck...@gmail.com wrote: We have to ask why do autodesk feel the need to add bonus tool. They should just come with the software. On 2 August 2014 01:22, Sebastien Sterling sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Will, Maya bonus tools might be what you are looking for (free addon for maya): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5oPTUHN-5U#t=67 Dynamic joints added in bonus tools 2013 Hope this helps. Give everyone at PB my best ;P On 1 August 2014 22:52, Jeremie Passerin gerem@gmail.com wrote: Hey Will, I think they attach rig to a simulated hair strand... I'm not quite sure but heard something like that. Also MT_springs = Gear Springs. It's part of the contribution from Helge to Gear. The code is open source by the way, so it shouldn't be too difficult to port it to Maya. Good luck in your research. Jeremie On 1 August 2014 14:12, Will Sharkey willjshar...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I posted this at maya_he3d google group but there is so little traffic, only 2 posts over there today and I think they were all from me! I wonder if you all could shed some light on spring dynamics in Maya, maybe something similar to mt springs or the cool spring solvers in gear. What are some good solutions or tools to achieve this? I noticed there is a Jiggle Deformer but that seems point based as opposed to an offset on a controller. Any information would be much appreciated. Thanks!
