Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Christopher Crouzet]

I guess that this kind of comment only confirms how difficult it was for
them to market their product and get potential customers to understand its
purpose.

Disappointed to see Fabric Engine coming to an end.


On 28 October 2017 at 04:13, Gerbrand Nel  wrote:

> IMHO Fabric targeted a ideological market that doesn't exist. The people
> who loved ICE but needed to work in maya.
> People like me.
> Well I think most of "us" tried but gave up because it still lived in
> maya.
> You had to learn maya and fabric, and when something didn't work, you
> didn't know if it was maya, fabric, or you.
> Fabric was like covering a turd in chocolate.
> If you are careful, you only taste chocolate, but softimage was forgiving
> and turned us all into reckless 3d maniacs.
> There was no avoiding the turd!
> After about 3 months of this you realize that learning houdini just makes
> more sense.
> I'm sad to see another great piece of software go, but like Jonathan said:
> These folks should find their place in the sun soon!
> G
>
>
> On 2017/10/27 11:59 PM, Jonathan Moore wrote:
>
> MPC and PSYOP output some great work with Fabric Engine but in the end I
> always felt it was too narrowly aimed at senior TD's with plenty of
> programming experience. The success of ICE was fuelled by the compounds
> that acted as a gateway drug to the inner workings. I thought maybe that
> Kraken would develop into that gateway drug, but after seeing experienced
> riggers feeling out of their comfort zone, soon realised it wasn't to be.
>
> When Eric Mootz joined the team I thought maybe that would bring about
> tools for technically minded artists who weren't necessarily TD's.
>
> Whatever the reasons I feel for the FE team after all their hard efforts.
> But I feel as one door closes others will open for them, folk with that
> much talent don't remain jobless for long.
>
> On 27 October 2017 at 22:03, Matt Lind  wrote:
>
>> It likely died for the reason you just stated - you 'eventually' wanted to
>> learn.  Problem is most people had the same sentiments.
>>
>> They made the right move initially of targeting the space between the
>> other
>> DCCs, but I think staying there long term was a mistake.
>>
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 17:34:02 +
>> From: Andres Stephens 
>> Subject: RE: Softimage - not going away...
>> To: "Official Softimage Users Mailing List.
>>
>> This is devastating news!!! WTF!? I was betting on learning this and
>> eventually investing in it. I didn?t want to be locked into one software
>> the
>> more I got into proceduralism.  Why!?
>>
>> -Draise
>>
>>
>> --
>> Softimage Mailing List.
>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
>> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>>
>
>
>
> 
>  Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> 
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Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Gerbrand Nel]

IMHO Fabric targeted a ideological market that doesn't exist. The people 
who loved ICE but needed to work in maya.

People like me.
Well I think most of "us" tried but gave up because it still lived in maya.
You had to learn maya and fabric, and when something didn't work, you 
didn't know if it was maya, fabric, or you.

Fabric was like covering a turd in chocolate.
If you are careful, you only taste chocolate, but softimage was 
forgiving and turned us all into reckless 3d maniacs.

There was no avoiding the turd!
After about 3 months of this you realize that learning houdini just 
makes more sense.
I'm sad to see another great piece of software go, but like Jonathan 
said: These folks should find their place in the sun soon!

G

On 2017/10/27 11:59 PM, Jonathan Moore wrote:
MPC and PSYOP output some great work with Fabric Engine but in the end 
I always felt it was too narrowly aimed at senior TD's with plenty of 
programming experience. The success of ICE was fuelled by the 
compounds that acted as a gateway drug to the inner workings. I 
thought maybe that Kraken would develop into that gateway drug, but 
after seeing experienced riggers feeling out of their comfort zone, 
soon realised it wasn't to be.


When Eric Mootz joined the team I thought maybe that would bring about 
tools for technically minded artists who weren't necessarily TD's.


Whatever the reasons I feel for the FE team after all their hard 
efforts. But I feel as one door closes others will open for them, folk 
with that much talent don't remain jobless for long.


On 27 October 2017 at 22:03, Matt Lind > wrote:


It likely died for the reason you just stated - you 'eventually'
wanted to
learn.  Problem is most people had the same sentiments.

They made the right move initially of targeting the space between
the other
DCCs, but I think staying there long term was a mistake.


Matt


Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 17:34:02 +
From: Andres Stephens mailto:drais...@outlook.com>>
Subject: RE: Softimage - not going away...
To: "Official Softimage Users Mailing List.

This is devastating news!!! WTF!? I was betting on learning this and
eventually investing in it. I didn?t want to be locked into one
software the
more I got into proceduralism. Why!?

-Draise


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Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Jonathan Moore]

MPC and PSYOP output some great work with Fabric Engine but in the end I
always felt it was too narrowly aimed at senior TD's with plenty of
programming experience. The success of ICE was fuelled by the compounds
that acted as a gateway drug to the inner workings. I thought maybe that
Kraken would develop into that gateway drug, but after seeing experienced
riggers feeling out of their comfort zone, soon realised it wasn't to be.

When Eric Mootz joined the team I thought maybe that would bring about
tools for technically minded artists who weren't necessarily TD's.

Whatever the reasons I feel for the FE team after all their hard efforts.
But I feel as one door closes others will open for them, folk with that
much talent don't remain jobless for long.

On 27 October 2017 at 22:03, Matt Lind  wrote:

> It likely died for the reason you just stated - you 'eventually' wanted to
> learn.  Problem is most people had the same sentiments.
>
> They made the right move initially of targeting the space between the other
> DCCs, but I think staying there long term was a mistake.
>
>
> Matt
>
>
> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 17:34:02 +
> From: Andres Stephens 
> Subject: RE: Softimage - not going away...
> To: "Official Softimage Users Mailing List.
>
> This is devastating news!!! WTF!? I was betting on learning this and
> eventually investing in it. I didn?t want to be locked into one software
> the
> more I got into proceduralism.  Why!?
>
> -Draise
>
>
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>
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RE: Softimage - not going away...

[Matt Lind]

It likely died for the reason you just stated - you 'eventually' wanted to 
learn.  Problem is most people had the same sentiments.

They made the right move initially of targeting the space between the other 
DCCs, but I think staying there long term was a mistake.


Matt


Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 17:34:02 +
From: Andres Stephens 
Subject: RE: Softimage - not going away...
To: "Official Softimage Users Mailing List.

This is devastating news!!! WTF!? I was betting on learning this and 
eventually investing in it. I didn?t want to be locked into one software the 
more I got into proceduralism.  Why!?

-Draise


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Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Jonathan Moore]

That would be my hope too Mirko.

On 27 October 2017 at 18:39, Mirko Jankovic 
wrote:

> Well hopefully they will go to SideFX... but yea.. BETA vs VHS all over
> again
> ᐧ
>
> On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 7:37 PM, Jonathan Moore  > wrote:
>
>> That's really is sad that Fabric Engine couldn't survive commercially.
>>
>> Devastating news for a team exceptional ex-XSI talents.
>>
>> On 27 October 2017 at 18:34, Andres Stephens 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This is devastating news!!! WTF!? I was betting on learning this and
>>> eventually investing in it. I didn’t want to be locked into one software
>>> the more I got into proceduralism.  Why!?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Draise
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *pedro santos 
>>> *Sent: *Friday, October 27, 2017 12:27
>>> *To: *Official Softimage Users Mailing List.
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=9mxBLhh4wPOue0bitBwrCYYkxfHcpfCbUm6f4wr92aQ&s=_bZTxzcZolTCFwWrbBaP4VIvviTKvsqFIz24eCZExoM&e=
>>> 
>>> *Subject: *Re: Softimage - not going away...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Another hit :(
>>> fabricengine.com
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Mirko Jankovic <
>>> mirkoj.anima...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> It is really sad that years after SI is killed best possible replacement
>>> is still years away
>>>
>>> What are we talking about? Let's kill best software it is not so
>>> profitable as others and push back production workflow and progress 10
>>> years back who needs progress when you can charge subscription for
>>> every day getting close to where Softiamge already is (yes.. AD.. yes...)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [image:
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mailfoogae.appspot.com_t-3Fsender-3DabWlya29qLmFuaW1hdG9yQGdtYWlsLmNvbQ-253D-253D-26type-3Dzerocontent-26guid-3Debae5a00-2D7061-2D4f8a-2Da8cf-2D0e837e373792&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=9mxBLhh4wPOue0bitBwrCYYkxfHcpfCbUm6f4wr92aQ&s=lvvQU_1Tz-0pkfye45UegoC_oh6jgxhmJpf-0PGI9o4&e=]
>>> ᐧ
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Softimage Mailing List.
>>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
>>> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> [image: 
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__i.imgur.com_b4wkbKh.gif&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=9mxBLhh4wPOue0bitBwrCYYkxfHcpfCbUm6f4wr92aQ&s=OZGELL8ALFpEkCgCONqoEQhCByaciFM1MSQmn-wG47E&e=]
>>>
>>> Pedro Alpiarça dos Santos
>>>
>>>  probiner.xyz
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Softimage Mailing List.
>>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
>>> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Softimage Mailing List.
>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
>> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Mirko Jankovic
> *https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cgfolio.com_mirko-2Djankovic&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=9mxBLhh4wPOue0bitBwrCYYkxfHcpfCbUm6f4wr92aQ&s=F3tk6coKQOyyrgxuirbZ9ae_aRk_CIABt0ySnx80Om8&e=
> *
>
> Need to find freelancers fast?
> www.cgfolio.com
> 
>
> Need some help with rendering an Redshift project?
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> 

Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Mirko Jankovic]

Well hopefully they will go to SideFX... but yea.. BETA vs VHS all over
again
ᐧ

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 7:37 PM, Jonathan Moore 
wrote:

> That's really is sad that Fabric Engine couldn't survive commercially.
>
> Devastating news for a team exceptional ex-XSI talents.
>
> On 27 October 2017 at 18:34, Andres Stephens  wrote:
>
>> This is devastating news!!! WTF!? I was betting on learning this and
>> eventually investing in it. I didn’t want to be locked into one software
>> the more I got into proceduralism.  Why!?
>>
>>
>>
>> -Draise
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *pedro santos 
>> *Sent: *Friday, October 27, 2017 12:27
>> *To: *Official Softimage Users Mailing List.
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=q67ZfB9mGzXSdyPWlxoiZWUaxiXI2VE2lcD-NVRHC4c&s=SlBODTmseToywL8l27vrjJSHD03NY9QcYJgJ9waFB2M&e=
>> 
>> *Subject: *Re: Softimage - not going away...
>>
>>
>>
>> Another hit :(
>> fabricengine.com
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Mirko Jankovic <
>> mirkoj.anima...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It is really sad that years after SI is killed best possible replacement
>> is still years away
>>
>> What are we talking about? Let's kill best software it is not so
>> profitable as others and push back production workflow and progress 10
>> years back who needs progress when you can charge subscription for
>> every day getting close to where Softiamge already is (yes.. AD.. yes...)
>>
>>
>>
>> [image:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mailfoogae.appspot.com_t-3Fsender-3DabWlya29qLmFuaW1hdG9yQGdtYWlsLmNvbQ-253D-253D-26type-3Dzerocontent-26guid-3Debae5a00-2D7061-2D4f8a-2Da8cf-2D0e837e373792&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=q67ZfB9mGzXSdyPWlxoiZWUaxiXI2VE2lcD-NVRHC4c&s=cAbAAKUhU-yVtkB_Dg9acD_Z2BBSSDR2gpqKxYxqs58&e=]
>> ᐧ
>>
>>
>> --
>> Softimage Mailing List.
>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
>> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> [image: 
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__i.imgur.com_b4wkbKh.gif&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=q67ZfB9mGzXSdyPWlxoiZWUaxiXI2VE2lcD-NVRHC4c&s=3XmyRHKZuvYiL8GSCCYHObM1FTvR0pqb6Py67A7xi5c&e=]
>>
>> Pedro Alpiarça dos Santos
>>
>>  probiner.xyz
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Softimage Mailing List.
>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
>> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>>
>
>
> --
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>



-- 
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*https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cgfolio.com_mirko-2Djankovic&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=q67ZfB9mGzXSdyPWlxoiZWUaxiXI2VE2lcD-NVRHC4c&s=N1FGbU71-svuVzALSEKjJ49KrZWeGy6XOtpf6vzg2xA&e=
*

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Need some help with rendering an Redshift project?
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Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Jonathan Moore]

That's really is sad that Fabric Engine couldn't survive commercially.

Devastating news for a team exceptional ex-XSI talents.

On 27 October 2017 at 18:34, Andres Stephens  wrote:

> This is devastating news!!! WTF!? I was betting on learning this and
> eventually investing in it. I didn’t want to be locked into one software
> the more I got into proceduralism.  Why!?
>
>
>
> -Draise
>
>
>
> *From: *pedro santos 
> *Sent: *Friday, October 27, 2017 12:27
> *To: *Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=fGhvNtVcP4NrcFtMdGRsN2zvg4f6FD36O_BHdpjl9j0&s=hB5PfbxG7P0P-YSJSROYGgxXR5h7r_uXcA74mCtNYuY&e=
> forum/#!forum/xsi_list 
> *Subject: *Re: Softimage - not going away...
>
>
>
> Another hit :(
> fabricengine.com
> 
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Mirko Jankovic 
> wrote:
>
> It is really sad that years after SI is killed best possible replacement
> is still years away
>
> What are we talking about? Let's kill best software it is not so
> profitable as others and push back production workflow and progress 10
> years back who needs progress when you can charge subscription for
> every day getting close to where Softiamge already is (yes.. AD.. yes...)
>
>
>
> [image:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mailfoogae.appspot.com_t-3Fsender-3DabWlya29qLmFuaW1hdG9yQGdtYWlsLmNvbQ-253D-253D-26type-3Dzerocontent-26guid-3Debae5a00-2D7061-2D4f8a-2Da8cf-2D0e837e373792&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=fGhvNtVcP4NrcFtMdGRsN2zvg4f6FD36O_BHdpjl9j0&s=IJusmnOm4wCLpqHZmcGwbUj5wx6fjhODMpswtc4zhI8&e=]
> ᐧ
>
>
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>
>
>
>
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> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__i.imgur.com_b4wkbKh.gif&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=fGhvNtVcP4NrcFtMdGRsN2zvg4f6FD36O_BHdpjl9j0&s=QqpwuDsE8vql7eZH2y-gD-nl331e3-ei_wFdhBn07XA&e=]
>
> Pedro Alpiarça dos Santos
>
>  probiner.xyz
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>
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RE: Softimage - not going away...

[Andres Stephens]

This is devastating news!!! WTF!? I was betting on learning this and eventually 
investing in it. I didn’t want to be locked into one software the more I got 
into proceduralism.  Why!?

-Draise

From: pedro santos
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 12:27
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
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Subject: Re: Softimage - not going away...

Another hit :(
fabricengine.com

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Mirko Jankovic 
mailto:mirkoj.anima...@gmail.com>> wrote:
It is really sad that years after SI is killed best possible replacement is 
still years away
What are we talking about? Let's kill best software it is not so profitable as 
others and push back production workflow and progress 10 years back who 
needs progress when you can charge subscription for every day getting close to 
where Softiamge already is (yes.. AD.. yes...)

ᐧ

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Pedro Alpiarça dos Santos

 
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Re: Softimage - not going away...

[pedro santos]

Another hit :(
fabricengine.com


On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Mirko Jankovic 
wrote:

> It is really sad that years after SI is killed best possible replacement
> is still years away
> What are we talking about? Let's kill best software it is not so
> profitable as others and push back production workflow and progress 10
> years back who needs progress when you can charge subscription for
> every day getting close to where Softiamge already is (yes.. AD.. yes...)
>
> ᐧ
>
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> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>



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* probiner.xyz 

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Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Mirko Jankovic]

It is really sad that years after SI is killed best possible replacement is
still years away
What are we talking about? Let's kill best software it is not so profitable
as others and push back production workflow and progress 10 years back
who needs progress when you can charge subscription for every day getting
close to where Softiamge already is (yes.. AD.. yes...)

ᐧ
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Softimage Mailing List.
To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
"unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.

Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Jonathan Moore]

I agree Jordi. The area that I'm pushing SideFX on is UX not capabilities.

The original point of the discussion here was regarding which current DCC
is the most natural home for XSI artist's. The consensus on the recent
'Procedural in Motion' panel, which included Tim Bolland from Glassworks,
was that there currently isn't a single package replacement. It's likely to
be a mix of Houdini & Maya or Houdini and C4D depending on the type of work
your shop is known for. Houdini isn't currently a replacement for XSI and
it's still got a way to go in the UX department before it could be
considered a like for like replacement for XSI. Take rigging as an example.
16.5 contains lots of improvements to the rigging toolset but Michael
Goldfarb the lead TD for the Houdini rigging toolset freely admits that
rigging is far to technical at the moment and the UX aspect of rigging in
particular has a long way to go. Technically, there are some awesome
rigging tools in Houdini, but getting your rigs fit for purpose in a speedy
fashion still lags considerably behind Soft.

I've not been arguing against Houdini, but have simply been stating that I
don't believe it to be a like for like replacement to Softimage. It shows
the most potential of attaining that lofty goal but isn't there yet.

On 27 October 2017 at 17:10, Jordi Bares  wrote:

> Sorry if it feels like I am going on circles, I am trying to distill some
> important thoughts from this constructive chat.
>
> On 27 Oct 2017, at 16:59, Jonathan Moore 
> wrote:
>
> To be clear, I'm happy working with particles in Houdini (although I still
> turn to a Mootzoid powered XSI more regularly than Houdini). I'm speaking
> for the artists I support.
>
> Jordi, even those nodes you list require knowledge of local variables and
> VEX Expressions if
>
>
> That is the key word... “IF"
>
> you want finer control over the the default behaviour (and what creative
> worth their salt doesn't want to go beyond the default behaviours).
>
>
> Wouldn’t the finer control in any other package also imply you need to get
> a bit deeper and learn the idiosyncrasies of the tool?
>
> For example, in Softimage you have to accept you have to dive into ICE and
> you will surely have to understand all the variables exposed along with the
> “vocabulary” of nodes ICE provides which is not trivial.
>
> In a way, the more freedom you demand, the more knowledge the software
> demands from you and that is unescapable. It is only thanks to Mootozoid
> awesome tools that you don’t need to dive into flocking in Softimage.
>
> My 2 cents on a Friday
>
> Jb
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27 October 2017 at 15:03, Jordi Bares  wrote:
>
>> BTW, I am sure you guys are aware but there are some tools for flocking
>> like the ones you have in Cinema4D
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.sidefx.com_docs_houdini_nodes_dop_popcurveforce&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=9Q6aYm1tPdpCgZbM9fxgY7rTQYGzx4O1CW3TUuWkDqk&s=7t_rflP4snOlV17on7EHt78Q0GIAuVZ20sDnZj4RBus&e=
>> 
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.sidefx.com_docs_houdini_nodes_dop_popmetaballforce&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=9Q6aYm1tPdpCgZbM9fxgY7rTQYGzx4O1CW3TUuWkDqk&s=hHcZxtZnieHs9SDhnWUABuvVtogaEkL2_Vy1oov26fA&e=
>> 
>>
>> Out of the box, no need for programming
>>
>> jb
>>
>>
>>
>> On 27 Oct 2017, at 14:53, Jordi Bares  wrote:
>>
>> I see… indeed you have a few tools there it is true that for motion
>> graphics you have to deal with technical things in Houdini that nor XSI not
>> Cinema4D force you to… this is something gI would love them to tweak so I
>> will ask … who knows.
>>
>> jb
>>
>> On 27 Oct 2017, at 12:42, Jonathan Moore 
>> wrote:
>>
>> What do you exactly mean by “control of motion”
>>
>>
>> That's a very opened ended statement but my own interpretation was that
>> you don't get very far in motion design without a good understanding of a
>> DCC's particle system and motion paths in general. On that basis the most
>> obvious comparison is the intuitive nature of Mograph and X-Particles in
>> C4D to Particles in Houdini. You won't get far in Houdini particle effects
>> without expressions at the least and Vex Wrangles to match some of the
>> stock effects in X-Particles. C4D & X-Particles

Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Jordi Bares]

Sorry if it feels like I am going on circles, I am trying to distill some 
important thoughts from this constructive chat.

> On 27 Oct 2017, at 16:59, Jonathan Moore  wrote:
> 
> To be clear, I'm happy working with particles in Houdini (although I still 
> turn to a Mootzoid powered XSI more regularly than Houdini). I'm speaking for 
> the artists I support.
> 
> Jordi, even those nodes you list require knowledge of local variables and VEX 
> Expressions if

That is the key word... “IF"

> you want finer control over the the default behaviour (and what creative 
> worth their salt doesn't want to go beyond the default behaviours).

Wouldn’t the finer control in any other package also imply you need to get a 
bit deeper and learn the idiosyncrasies of the tool?

For example, in Softimage you have to accept you have to dive into ICE and you 
will surely have to understand all the variables exposed along with the 
“vocabulary” of nodes ICE provides which is not trivial.

In a way, the more freedom you demand, the more knowledge the software demands 
from you and that is unescapable. It is only thanks to Mootozoid awesome tools 
that you don’t need to dive into flocking in Softimage.

My 2 cents on a Friday

Jb 

> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 27 October 2017 at 15:03, Jordi Bares  > wrote:
> BTW, I am sure you guys are aware but there are some tools for flocking like 
> the ones you have in Cinema4D
> 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.sidefx.com_docs_houdini_nodes_dop_popcurveforce&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=hiZdB_nxUmdWTozFLmw1LA3uPlZeH7h5E4uPpVjLQPI&s=7G6mHkEGr7-PYt2-sPM44ZPtuaRRWxvBKaxOEDg3h7o&e=
>  
> 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.sidefx.com_docs_houdini_nodes_dop_popmetaballforce&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=hiZdB_nxUmdWTozFLmw1LA3uPlZeH7h5E4uPpVjLQPI&s=s80MFpZ3_j24IVsOopqT7htfaa22WT5aQJaOCMX2tmc&e=
>  
> 
> 
> Out of the box, no need for programming
> 
> jb
> 
> 
> 
>> On 27 Oct 2017, at 14:53, Jordi Bares > > wrote:
>> 
>> I see… indeed you have a few tools there it is true that for motion graphics 
>> you have to deal with technical things in Houdini that nor XSI not Cinema4D 
>> force you to… this is something gI would love them to tweak so I will ask … 
>> who knows.
>> 
>> jb
>> 
>>> On 27 Oct 2017, at 12:42, Jonathan Moore >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> What do you exactly mean by “control of motion”
>>> 
>>> That's a very opened ended statement but my own interpretation was that you 
>>> don't get very far in motion design without a good understanding of a DCC's 
>>> particle system and motion paths in general. On that basis the most obvious 
>>> comparison is the intuitive nature of Mograph and X-Particles in C4D to 
>>> Particles in Houdini. You won't get far in Houdini particle effects without 
>>> expressions at the least and Vex Wrangles to match some of the stock 
>>> effects in X-Particles. C4D & X-Particles both put intuitive UX front and 
>>> centre; the whole question/answer metaphor used in X-Particles is a UX tour 
>>> de force. When you couple that with the elegance of C4D's scene manager it 
>>> makes for a very intuitive workflow.
>>> 
>>> Houdini is without doubt the more powerful and flexible option, but C4D 
>>> enables a motion designer to get the task done faster and more intuitively.
>>> 
>>> On 27 October 2017 at 09:04, Jordi Bares >> > wrote:
>>> I am very interested in understanding the things others see in Houdini that 
>>> are wrong or not quite there.
>>> 
>>> What do you exactly mean by “control of motion”
>>> 
>>> Jb
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On 27 Oct 2017, at 00:48, Jonathan Moore >> > wrote:
>>> 
 The short answer to your question Phil is no. Control of motion in Houdini 
 isn't as easy or intuitive as it is with XSI/ICE. But the longer answer is 
 that you can easily build bespoke tools in Houdini to provide the exact 
 flavour of motion control you favour.
 
 Houdini gives you less out of the box but it's far easier to create 
 bespoke tools in Houdini than with any other DCC.
 
 On 27 October

Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Jonathan Moore]

To be clear, I'm happy working with particles in Houdini (although I still
turn to a Mootzoid powered XSI more regularly than Houdini). I'm speaking
for the artists I support.

Jordi, even those nodes you list require knowledge of local variables and
VEX Expressions if you want finer control over the the default behaviour
(and what creative worth their salt doesn't want to go beyond the default
behaviours).




On 27 October 2017 at 15:03, Jordi Bares  wrote:

> BTW, I am sure you guys are aware but there are some tools for flocking
> like the ones you have in Cinema4D
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.sidefx.com_docs_houdini_nodes_dop_popcurveforce&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=LnSwN7r2MYpeqTrq02xtc0yaL2tt2Z8s6qljJTRNLz0&s=tnYX57Hrlhkcs2kJ_yWq-EUJW-9HISzhzxk6d0hp4kw&e=
> 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.sidefx.com_docs_houdini_nodes_dop_popmetaballforce&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=LnSwN7r2MYpeqTrq02xtc0yaL2tt2Z8s6qljJTRNLz0&s=xn6t4Uqc-qEK-abdm0ETdwWGcg0XLzxHvK4HBUI_AUg&e=
> 
>
> Out of the box, no need for programming
>
> jb
>
>
>
> On 27 Oct 2017, at 14:53, Jordi Bares  wrote:
>
> I see… indeed you have a few tools there it is true that for motion
> graphics you have to deal with technical things in Houdini that nor XSI not
> Cinema4D force you to… this is something gI would love them to tweak so I
> will ask … who knows.
>
> jb
>
> On 27 Oct 2017, at 12:42, Jonathan Moore 
> wrote:
>
> What do you exactly mean by “control of motion”
>
>
> That's a very opened ended statement but my own interpretation was that
> you don't get very far in motion design without a good understanding of a
> DCC's particle system and motion paths in general. On that basis the most
> obvious comparison is the intuitive nature of Mograph and X-Particles in
> C4D to Particles in Houdini. You won't get far in Houdini particle effects
> without expressions at the least and Vex Wrangles to match some of the
> stock effects in X-Particles. C4D & X-Particles both put intuitive UX front
> and centre; the whole question/answer metaphor used in X-Particles is a UX
> tour de force. When you couple that with the elegance of C4D's scene
> manager it makes for a very intuitive workflow.
>
> Houdini is without doubt the more powerful and flexible option, but C4D
> enables a motion designer to get the task done faster and more intuitively.
>
> On 27 October 2017 at 09:04, Jordi Bares  wrote:
>
>> I am very interested in understanding the things others see in Houdini
>> that are wrong or not quite there.
>>
>> What do you exactly mean by “control of motion”
>>
>> Jb
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 27 Oct 2017, at 00:48, Jonathan Moore 
>> wrote:
>>
>> The short answer to your question Phil is no. Control of motion in
>> Houdini isn't as easy or intuitive as it is with XSI/ICE. But the longer
>> answer is that you can easily build bespoke tools in Houdini to provide the
>> exact flavour of motion control you favour.
>>
>> Houdini gives you less out of the box but it's far easier to create
>> bespoke tools in Houdini than with any other DCC.
>>
>> On 27 October 2017 at 00:18, phil harbath 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I would be interested to know if Motion Creation is as easy and powerful
>>> as it is in ICE,  I can find I can do whatever I want to do for the most
>>> part in ice, create point clouds in most any fashion, pop them in and out
>>> at any time, and apply animated colors to them as I see fit,  I would think
>>> that you do much of this in C4D but without the complete control you can
>>> get with ICE, however I wonder if the same ease of creation is there with
>>> Houdini.  I agree with others I would just assume continue to use
>>> Softimage/Ice, however, I worry about the day, Soft just doesn’t open.  I
>>> have had problems like this with other programs where just recently some
>>> updates whether it be windows 10 or the video drivers, have caused certain
>>> things to crash, and has caused me great anxiety.
>>>
>>> *From:* Jonathan Moore
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 26, 2017 7:07 PM
>>> *To:* Official Softimage Users Mailing 
>>> List.https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF

Friday Flashback #318

[Stephen Blair]

News from 1997:
First Sumatra-level 3D product to support new Intel architecture

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Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Jordi Bares]

BTW, I am sure you guys are aware but there are some tools for flocking like 
the ones you have in Cinema4D

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.sidefx.com_docs_houdini_nodes_dop_popcurveforce&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=HG4yc6di4pSPGmjjCQ4nMw4HMQzz-WNeoV_iUe2V20Y&s=ZAZwrCLfNzu1gwYSL6rpD8PdDhZ4Zl70odynEqbVLtY&e=
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.sidefx.com_docs_houdini_nodes_dop_popmetaballforce&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=HG4yc6di4pSPGmjjCQ4nMw4HMQzz-WNeoV_iUe2V20Y&s=LVL8fbw4IGn6v-DNxdiz_4nLFXHlulY4W5UpxYu0zdI&e=

Out of the box, no need for programming

jb



> On 27 Oct 2017, at 14:53, Jordi Bares  wrote:
> 
> I see… indeed you have a few tools there it is true that for motion graphics 
> you have to deal with technical things in Houdini that nor XSI not Cinema4D 
> force you to… this is something gI would love them to tweak so I will ask … 
> who knows.
> 
> jb
> 
>> On 27 Oct 2017, at 12:42, Jonathan Moore > > wrote:
>> 
>> What do you exactly mean by “control of motion”
>> 
>> That's a very opened ended statement but my own interpretation was that you 
>> don't get very far in motion design without a good understanding of a DCC's 
>> particle system and motion paths in general. On that basis the most obvious 
>> comparison is the intuitive nature of Mograph and X-Particles in C4D to 
>> Particles in Houdini. You won't get far in Houdini particle effects without 
>> expressions at the least and Vex Wrangles to match some of the stock effects 
>> in X-Particles. C4D & X-Particles both put intuitive UX front and centre; 
>> the whole question/answer metaphor used in X-Particles is a UX tour de 
>> force. When you couple that with the elegance of C4D's scene manager it 
>> makes for a very intuitive workflow.
>> 
>> Houdini is without doubt the more powerful and flexible option, but C4D 
>> enables a motion designer to get the task done faster and more intuitively.
>> 
>> On 27 October 2017 at 09:04, Jordi Bares > > wrote:
>> I am very interested in understanding the things others see in Houdini that 
>> are wrong or not quite there.
>> 
>> What do you exactly mean by “control of motion”
>> 
>> Jb
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On 27 Oct 2017, at 00:48, Jonathan Moore > > wrote:
>> 
>>> The short answer to your question Phil is no. Control of motion in Houdini 
>>> isn't as easy or intuitive as it is with XSI/ICE. But the longer answer is 
>>> that you can easily build bespoke tools in Houdini to provide the exact 
>>> flavour of motion control you favour.
>>> 
>>> Houdini gives you less out of the box but it's far easier to create bespoke 
>>> tools in Houdini than with any other DCC.
>>> 
>>> On 27 October 2017 at 00:18, phil harbath >> > wrote:
>>> I would be interested to know if Motion Creation is as easy and powerful as 
>>> it is in ICE,  I can find I can do whatever I want to do for the most part 
>>> in ice, create point clouds in most any fashion, pop them in and out at any 
>>> time, and apply animated colors to them as I see fit,  I would think that 
>>> you do much of this in C4D but without the complete control you can get 
>>> with ICE, however I wonder if the same ease of creation is there with 
>>> Houdini.  I agree with others I would just assume continue to use 
>>> Softimage/Ice, however, I worry about the day, Soft just doesn’t open.  I 
>>> have had problems like this with other programs where just recently some 
>>> updates whether it be windows 10 or the video drivers, have caused certain 
>>> things to crash, and has caused me great anxiety.
>>>  
>>> From: Jonathan Moore <>
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 7:07 PM
>>> To: Official Softimage Users Mailing 
>>> List.https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=HG4yc6di4pSPGmjjCQ4nMw4HMQzz-WNeoV_iUe2V20Y&s=iOiMTbZP6iKXDYk1V7Uh1Be7Oor2oWR2cuoYLea5vNA&e=
>>>  <>
>>> Subject: Re: Softimage - not going away...
>>>  
>>> Those coming from the likes C4D and After Effects doing wonderful stuff in 
>>> Houdini were in many cases already technical artists. One of the 
>>> Aixsponza/Entagma boys (Manuel) started out in XSI as it happens, the other 
>>> was skilled in Processing (Moritz). And Simon Holmedal was a math nerd long 
>>> before he gazed eyes on C4D, never mind Houdini. Ben Watt on the other hand 
>>> is a great example of a C4D artist not used to technical workflows who 
>>> rapidly adapted to using Houdini as his main platform.
>>>  
>>> Motion design is my thing and I encourage any artists I know to learn 
>>> Houdini, but sadly for some, things do

Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Jordi Bares]

I see… indeed you have a few tools there it is true that for motion graphics 
you have to deal with technical things in Houdini that nor XSI not Cinema4D 
force you to… this is something gI would love them to tweak so I will ask … who 
knows.

jb

> On 27 Oct 2017, at 12:42, Jonathan Moore  wrote:
> 
> What do you exactly mean by “control of motion”
> 
> That's a very opened ended statement but my own interpretation was that you 
> don't get very far in motion design without a good understanding of a DCC's 
> particle system and motion paths in general. On that basis the most obvious 
> comparison is the intuitive nature of Mograph and X-Particles in C4D to 
> Particles in Houdini. You won't get far in Houdini particle effects without 
> expressions at the least and Vex Wrangles to match some of the stock effects 
> in X-Particles. C4D & X-Particles both put intuitive UX front and centre; the 
> whole question/answer metaphor used in X-Particles is a UX tour de force. 
> When you couple that with the elegance of C4D's scene manager it makes for a 
> very intuitive workflow.
> 
> Houdini is without doubt the more powerful and flexible option, but C4D 
> enables a motion designer to get the task done faster and more intuitively.
> 
> On 27 October 2017 at 09:04, Jordi Bares  > wrote:
> I am very interested in understanding the things others see in Houdini that 
> are wrong or not quite there.
> 
> What do you exactly mean by “control of motion”
> 
> Jb
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 27 Oct 2017, at 00:48, Jonathan Moore  > wrote:
> 
>> The short answer to your question Phil is no. Control of motion in Houdini 
>> isn't as easy or intuitive as it is with XSI/ICE. But the longer answer is 
>> that you can easily build bespoke tools in Houdini to provide the exact 
>> flavour of motion control you favour.
>> 
>> Houdini gives you less out of the box but it's far easier to create bespoke 
>> tools in Houdini than with any other DCC.
>> 
>> On 27 October 2017 at 00:18, phil harbath > > wrote:
>> I would be interested to know if Motion Creation is as easy and powerful as 
>> it is in ICE,  I can find I can do whatever I want to do for the most part 
>> in ice, create point clouds in most any fashion, pop them in and out at any 
>> time, and apply animated colors to them as I see fit,  I would think that 
>> you do much of this in C4D but without the complete control you can get with 
>> ICE, however I wonder if the same ease of creation is there with Houdini.  I 
>> agree with others I would just assume continue to use Softimage/Ice, 
>> however, I worry about the day, Soft just doesn’t open.  I have had problems 
>> like this with other programs where just recently some updates whether it be 
>> windows 10 or the video drivers, have caused certain things to crash, and 
>> has caused me great anxiety.
>>  
>> From: Jonathan Moore <>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 7:07 PM
>> To: Official Softimage Users Mailing 
>> List.https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=5tFi1PqSa43D8reVogRSLLYRU2gjK6Y2Rklk-KYAhsA&s=7oM-a_-ay0vp5VRaPqCCH7fok2jFuUSAWxg83piov9U&e=
>>  <>
>> Subject: Re: Softimage - not going away...
>>  
>> Those coming from the likes C4D and After Effects doing wonderful stuff in 
>> Houdini were in many cases already technical artists. One of the 
>> Aixsponza/Entagma boys (Manuel) started out in XSI as it happens, the other 
>> was skilled in Processing (Moritz). And Simon Holmedal was a math nerd long 
>> before he gazed eyes on C4D, never mind Houdini. Ben Watt on the other hand 
>> is a great example of a C4D artist not used to technical workflows who 
>> rapidly adapted to using Houdini as his main platform.
>>  
>> Motion design is my thing and I encourage any artists I know to learn 
>> Houdini, but sadly for some, things don't click. At the moment I'm working 
>> with others on a Mograph/MASH type suite of tools for Houdini. Creating the 
>> cloners, effectors and falloffs of a typical motion graphics plugin suite is 
>> the easy  part, making it a 'gateway drug' into the delights of Houdini, a 
>> little harder! But we feel one of the major hooks is performance and luckily 
>> the v16 release cycle has seen critical SOP nodes become thread friendly 
>> (e.g. the Copy and Point SOP's for starters). C4D and Maya's motion design 
>> tools are throttled by a single threaded core, so a suite of tools in 
>> Houdini with similar capabilities, whilst being optimised for fully threaded 
>> workflows will hopefully provide further encouragement for motion artists to 
>> deepen their Houdini knowledge. ;)
>>  
>> On 26 October 2017 at 21:30, Jordi Bares > wrote:
>> No worries Jonathan..
>>  
>> It is nevertheless interesting that non-technical art

Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Jason S]

  
  
On 10/25/17 17:01, Mathieu Leclaire
  wrote:


  
  I hear you, but how will you compete
for a job when everyone else is using nail guns and you are only
using a hammer? If all these new kids can do the job 100x faster
then you can, why would they hire you instead? I'm not saying
you can't do a good job with a hammer, but it'll take more time
so you'll need to charge more money to compensate. You better
make sure you're freaking amazing with that hammer if you want
them to come back to you.
  


There is no doubt that becoming at least familiar if not functional
in a variety of solutions can be good practice and a goo measure (if
only for eventually down the line), 
The same goes for in general staying aware of the current state of
things.

But If we are still having this conversation almost 5 years post
eol, 
if only it was -mostly- about the force of habit or "comfort zones".

Or if even after serious evaluations and experiences, despite
reduced talent base and a number of other obstacles, XSI continues
to persists, I'd hardly think it's due to stubborn muscle memory... 
but mostly -because- of the main "problem" being :: XSI quite
arguably remains the nail gun in a great number of situations by a
still pretty considerable margin.

There is no doubt capability to do anything in alternatives are
there, 
(or even more capability or depth in some areas, -sometimes- more
performance in raw FPS, or sometimes not)
but similarly, if only the "speed of XSI" had to do with raw FPS, as
opposed to general "no-brainer-ism" or fixing things by merly
fiddling a little, or how in both time or requirements to get from A
to B in real life scenarios, can often be more efficient by like a
factor of 10
(without exaggeration), with little to no compromise in terms of
flexibility (mostly approachable).

In other words, in many fronts has XSI been the computer, and we've
been waiting for typewriters to first get lamps before getting
solid-state micro switchers.

Or creation in general in XSI -- like modeling?, rigging? shading?
scene/render management?  procedural process authoring? (all still
major parts of doing CG last time I checked) 
all remain comparatively quite a bit more intuitive, "direct", an
reliable.
(which I must admit may contribute to making XSI really comfortable)

And I think that will only change once exactly that situation would
considerably change.
(H v22? ... maybe?)
That, or once XSI would physically stop working, whichever comes
first (at this pace, it seems the latter would come first, while not
likely being anytime soon).

You know the old saying that "XSI has really good
  <>"
to this day relative to other solutions, we didn't know how good
Softimage "workflow" really was, until lots of us started to look at
other workflows.

In any event, you're an artist looking for jobs? learn what is the
most used out there.
If you're a shop or freelancer, and have the privilege and or
possibility of working with Soft while it's possible, -- apart that
you are benefiting from what is lined-up to be quite possibly if not
probably a one in a lifetime thing (or a one time only cumulative
combinations of things together at once), -- I think it's also
beneficial for the entire CG arena as it's already been to a quite
large degree, since keeping it alive also contributes to sustaining
what continues to be a definite reference, giving rise to all sorts
of constructive comparisons, ending-up being mostly around general
usability and around ... --workflow--.

Anyhoo, 
Cheers!
-J


  

--
Softimage Mailing List.
To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
"unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.

Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Jonathan Moore]

>
> What do you exactly mean by “control of motion”


That's a very opened ended statement but my own interpretation was that you
don't get very far in motion design without a good understanding of a DCC's
particle system and motion paths in general. On that basis the most obvious
comparison is the intuitive nature of Mograph and X-Particles in C4D to
Particles in Houdini. You won't get far in Houdini particle effects without
expressions at the least and Vex Wrangles to match some of the stock
effects in X-Particles. C4D & X-Particles both put intuitive UX front and
centre; the whole question/answer metaphor used in X-Particles is a UX tour
de force. When you couple that with the elegance of C4D's scene manager it
makes for a very intuitive workflow.

Houdini is without doubt the more powerful and flexible option, but C4D
enables a motion designer to get the task done faster and more intuitively.

On 27 October 2017 at 09:04, Jordi Bares  wrote:

> I am very interested in understanding the things others see in Houdini
> that are wrong or not quite there.
>
> What do you exactly mean by “control of motion”
>
> Jb
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 27 Oct 2017, at 00:48, Jonathan Moore 
> wrote:
>
> The short answer to your question Phil is no. Control of motion in Houdini
> isn't as easy or intuitive as it is with XSI/ICE. But the longer answer is
> that you can easily build bespoke tools in Houdini to provide the exact
> flavour of motion control you favour.
>
> Houdini gives you less out of the box but it's far easier to create
> bespoke tools in Houdini than with any other DCC.
>
> On 27 October 2017 at 00:18, phil harbath 
> wrote:
>
>> I would be interested to know if Motion Creation is as easy and powerful
>> as it is in ICE,  I can find I can do whatever I want to do for the most
>> part in ice, create point clouds in most any fashion, pop them in and out
>> at any time, and apply animated colors to them as I see fit,  I would think
>> that you do much of this in C4D but without the complete control you can
>> get with ICE, however I wonder if the same ease of creation is there with
>> Houdini.  I agree with others I would just assume continue to use
>> Softimage/Ice, however, I worry about the day, Soft just doesn’t open.  I
>> have had problems like this with other programs where just recently some
>> updates whether it be windows 10 or the video drivers, have caused certain
>> things to crash, and has caused me great anxiety.
>>
>> *From:* Jonathan Moore
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 26, 2017 7:07 PM
>> *To:* Official Softimage Users Mailing 
>> List.https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=RfOkQ55SiagKNkAHAUMnzk7eSAgZ1xhf4NPRa-D-XIA&s=g0dOTDIPJ-fvvdzrm4132h8mIPs0jDWfMIfnard1_ZU&e=
>> /forum/#!forum/xsi_list
>> *Subject:* Re: Softimage - not going away...
>>
>> Those coming from the likes C4D and After Effects doing wonderful stuff
>> in Houdini were in many cases already technical artists. One of the
>> Aixsponza/Entagma boys (Manuel) started out in XSI as it happens, the other
>> was skilled in Processing (Moritz). And Simon Holmedal was a math nerd long
>> before he gazed eyes on C4D, never mind Houdini. Ben Watt on the other hand
>> is a great example of a C4D artist not used to technical workflows who
>> rapidly adapted to using Houdini as his main platform.
>>
>> Motion design is my thing and I encourage any artists I know to learn
>> Houdini, but sadly for some, things don't click. At the moment I'm working
>> with others on a Mograph/MASH type suite of tools for Houdini. Creating the
>> cloners, effectors and falloffs of a typical motion graphics plugin suite
>> is the easy part, making it a 'gateway drug' into the delights of Houdini,
>> a little harder! But we feel one of the major hooks is performance and
>> luckily the v16 release cycle has seen critical SOP nodes become thread
>> friendly (e.g. the Copy and Point SOP's for starters). C4D and Maya's
>> motion design tools are throttled by a single threaded core, so a suite of
>> tools in Houdini with similar capabilities, whilst being optimised for
>> fully threaded workflows will hopefully provide further encouragement for
>> motion artists to deepen their Houdini knowledge. ;)
>>
>> On 26 October 2017 at 21:30, Jordi Bares  wrote:
>>
>>> No worries Jonathan..
>>>
>>> It is nevertheless interesting that non-technical artists like those
>>> coming from C4D and AfterEffects are jumping on Houdini and some really are
>>> doing amazing work the like we haven’t seen so may be it will be an
>>> evolution in the sense that understanding the processes may be fundamental
>>> for the type of work they intend to do.
>>>
>>> Anyway… good luck though
>>>
>>> hugs
>>> jb
>>>
>>>
>>> On 26 Oct 2017, at 19:41, Jonathan Moore 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I wasn't intending to pick holes Jordi, so apologies if it came over
>>> that way

Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Alex Doss]

PS:
I always knew I would miss *a lot* that "middle click" feature on a menu to
repeat its last operation.
And the ability to zoom in on a camera view. (SHIFT+Z) on Softimage.
Basically, all the strongest "workflow tricks" that softimage has.


On 27 October 2017 at 10:45, Alex Doss  wrote:

> Hi, I hope this time my post will make it to this list.
> As of now I have about 5 months of houdini experience. And I am totally in
> love with it, and love is growing by the minute.
> At this moment and personally, I feel the biggest fault in H is the UI
> real estate it seems to claim.
> As a Generalist/Td one has to access all aspects of a project during the
> course of a day. At the moment this is already fastidious.
> Way too many dives IN/OUT to have access a given param. Promoting is ok,
> but I consider it, to some extend, a waste of time since u have to "stop"
> to promote. And that doesnt usually place the param where u need it to be.
> (finger tips)
> Hou needs to improve VASTLY on filtering. (hello 16.5)
> Viewport Display filter (geometry, nulls, bones, curves, pointclouds, vdb,
> isolate selected (without scene interference) etc... )
> Tree view (Softimage explorer like) Urgently ! ( multi-selection, selected
> obj only, parameters only, takes, groups, material, stylesheets ,etc.. )
>
> Currently treeview has some filters i mentioned already in place, yet far
> from optimal. "Takes" have to be checked with a specialized  "treeview"
> like window. Thats quite similar to the obtuse "Mayan" approach. Aka 1
> editor per task. (Layer editor, Group editor, Take editor, StyleSheet
> editor )
>
> Blender has one really neat feature on its 'node view' where parameters
> are already exposed on the node's box:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__bensimonds.files.wordpress.com_2011_06_defocus-5Fe1.gif&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=j7Fek1CMAmp-pitj0OIJHRmXMbtXnBROvPPDoG56a88&s=Sc9c6FgXv6Kmc7RtrDIo5LAdHn5x7xC1ciakIz05aWc&e=
>
> So basically, I feel houdini's interface still remains too much on your
> face, as opposed to ur work. Granted Im only starting, but  that's my 2
> cents atm.
> Luv,
> Al.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27 October 2017 at 10:04, Jordi Bares  wrote:
>
>> I am very interested in understanding the things others see in Houdini
>> that are wrong or not quite there.
>>
>> What do you exactly mean by “control of motion”
>>
>> Jb
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 27 Oct 2017, at 00:48, Jonathan Moore 
>> wrote:
>>
>> The short answer to your question Phil is no. Control of motion in
>> Houdini isn't as easy or intuitive as it is with XSI/ICE. But the longer
>> answer is that you can easily build bespoke tools in Houdini to provide the
>> exact flavour of motion control you favour.
>>
>> Houdini gives you less out of the box but it's far easier to create
>> bespoke tools in Houdini than with any other DCC.
>>
>> On 27 October 2017 at 00:18, phil harbath 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I would be interested to know if Motion Creation is as easy and powerful
>>> as it is in ICE,  I can find I can do whatever I want to do for the most
>>> part in ice, create point clouds in most any fashion, pop them in and out
>>> at any time, and apply animated colors to them as I see fit,  I would think
>>> that you do much of this in C4D but without the complete control you can
>>> get with ICE, however I wonder if the same ease of creation is there with
>>> Houdini.  I agree with others I would just assume continue to use
>>> Softimage/Ice, however, I worry about the day, Soft just doesn’t open.  I
>>> have had problems like this with other programs where just recently some
>>> updates whether it be windows 10 or the video drivers, have caused certain
>>> things to crash, and has caused me great anxiety.
>>>
>>> *From:* Jonathan Moore
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 26, 2017 7:07 PM
>>> *To:* Official Softimage Users Mailing 
>>> List.https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=j7Fek1CMAmp-pitj0OIJHRmXMbtXnBROvPPDoG56a88&s=feS6NZgMADaMrp6PBjqL_gX5haoEBAu3viWphsZ_Vzg&e=
>>> /forum/#!forum/xsi_list
>>> *Subject:* Re: Softimage - not going away...
>>>
>>> Those coming from the likes C4D and After Effects doing wonderful stuff
>>> in Houdini were in many cases already technical artists. One of the
>>> Aixsponza/Entagma boys (Manuel) started out in XSI as it happens, the other
>>> was skilled in Processing (Moritz). And Simon Holmedal was a math nerd long
>>> before he gazed eyes on C4D, never mind Houdini. Ben Watt on the other hand
>>> is a great example of a C4D artist not used to technical workflows who
>>> rapidly adapted to using Houdini as his main platform.
>>>
>>> Motion design is my thing and I encourage any artists I know to learn
>>> Houdini, but sadly for some, things don't click. At the moment I'm working
>>> with o

Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Alex Doss]

Hi, I hope this time my post will make it to this list.
As of now I have about 5 months of houdini experience. And I am totally in
love with it, and love is growing by the minute.
At this moment and personally, I feel the biggest fault in H is the UI real
estate it seems to claim.
As a Generalist/Td one has to access all aspects of a project during the
course of a day. At the moment this is already fastidious.
Way too many dives IN/OUT to have access a given param. Promoting is ok,
but I consider it, to some extend, a waste of time since u have to "stop"
to promote. And that doesnt usually place the param where u need it to be.
(finger tips)
Hou needs to improve VASTLY on filtering. (hello 16.5)
Viewport Display filter (geometry, nulls, bones, curves, pointclouds, vdb,
isolate selected (without scene interference) etc... )
Tree view (Softimage explorer like) Urgently ! ( multi-selection, selected
obj only, parameters only, takes, groups, material, stylesheets ,etc.. )

Currently treeview has some filters i mentioned already in place, yet far
from optimal. "Takes" have to be checked with a specialized  "treeview"
like window. Thats quite similar to the obtuse "Mayan" approach. Aka 1
editor per task. (Layer editor, Group editor, Take editor, StyleSheet
editor )

Blender has one really neat feature on its 'node view' where parameters are
already exposed on the node's box:
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__bensimonds.files.wordpress.com_2011_06_defocus-5Fe1.gif&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=Wd_RyGDz-lg9sFrxP9AaL7w8BRt4WRlf2KoPR3t7JKw&s=aFeQpnoXniNfBvpjRgkA7B8SqipiNq_YU_y5h5j32hk&e=

So basically, I feel houdini's interface still remains too much on your
face, as opposed to ur work. Granted Im only starting, but  that's my 2
cents atm.
Luv,
Al.





On 27 October 2017 at 10:04, Jordi Bares  wrote:

> I am very interested in understanding the things others see in Houdini
> that are wrong or not quite there.
>
> What do you exactly mean by “control of motion”
>
> Jb
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 27 Oct 2017, at 00:48, Jonathan Moore 
> wrote:
>
> The short answer to your question Phil is no. Control of motion in Houdini
> isn't as easy or intuitive as it is with XSI/ICE. But the longer answer is
> that you can easily build bespoke tools in Houdini to provide the exact
> flavour of motion control you favour.
>
> Houdini gives you less out of the box but it's far easier to create
> bespoke tools in Houdini than with any other DCC.
>
> On 27 October 2017 at 00:18, phil harbath 
> wrote:
>
>> I would be interested to know if Motion Creation is as easy and powerful
>> as it is in ICE,  I can find I can do whatever I want to do for the most
>> part in ice, create point clouds in most any fashion, pop them in and out
>> at any time, and apply animated colors to them as I see fit,  I would think
>> that you do much of this in C4D but without the complete control you can
>> get with ICE, however I wonder if the same ease of creation is there with
>> Houdini.  I agree with others I would just assume continue to use
>> Softimage/Ice, however, I worry about the day, Soft just doesn’t open.  I
>> have had problems like this with other programs where just recently some
>> updates whether it be windows 10 or the video drivers, have caused certain
>> things to crash, and has caused me great anxiety.
>>
>> *From:* Jonathan Moore
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 26, 2017 7:07 PM
>> *To:* Official Softimage Users Mailing 
>> List.https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=Wd_RyGDz-lg9sFrxP9AaL7w8BRt4WRlf2KoPR3t7JKw&s=Uj1fm4e20gXXCIzSDZmB2MW2yj4mYOdBO8-kUqZBSQA&e=
>> /forum/#!forum/xsi_list
>> *Subject:* Re: Softimage - not going away...
>>
>> Those coming from the likes C4D and After Effects doing wonderful stuff
>> in Houdini were in many cases already technical artists. One of the
>> Aixsponza/Entagma boys (Manuel) started out in XSI as it happens, the other
>> was skilled in Processing (Moritz). And Simon Holmedal was a math nerd long
>> before he gazed eyes on C4D, never mind Houdini. Ben Watt on the other hand
>> is a great example of a C4D artist not used to technical workflows who
>> rapidly adapted to using Houdini as his main platform.
>>
>> Motion design is my thing and I encourage any artists I know to learn
>> Houdini, but sadly for some, things don't click. At the moment I'm working
>> with others on a Mograph/MASH type suite of tools for Houdini. Creating the
>> cloners, effectors and falloffs of a typical motion graphics plugin suite
>> is the easy part, making it a 'gateway drug' into the delights of Houdini,
>> a little harder! But we feel one of the major hooks is performance and
>> luckily the v16 release cycle has seen critical SOP nodes become thread
>> friendly (e.g. the Copy and Point SOP'

Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Jordi Bares]

I am very interested in understanding the things others see in Houdini that are 
wrong or not quite there.

What do you exactly mean by “control of motion”

Jb

Sent from my iPhone

> On 27 Oct 2017, at 00:48, Jonathan Moore  wrote:
> 
> The short answer to your question Phil is no. Control of motion in Houdini 
> isn't as easy or intuitive as it is with XSI/ICE. But the longer answer is 
> that you can easily build bespoke tools in Houdini to provide the exact 
> flavour of motion control you favour.
> 
> Houdini gives you less out of the box but it's far easier to create bespoke 
> tools in Houdini than with any other DCC.
> 
>> On 27 October 2017 at 00:18, phil harbath  
>> wrote:
>> I would be interested to know if Motion Creation is as easy and powerful as 
>> it is in ICE,  I can find I can do whatever I want to do for the most part 
>> in ice, create point clouds in most any fashion, pop them in and out at any 
>> time, and apply animated colors to them as I see fit,  I would think that 
>> you do much of this in C4D but without the complete control you can get with 
>> ICE, however I wonder if the same ease of creation is there with Houdini.  I 
>> agree with others I would just assume continue to use Softimage/Ice, 
>> however, I worry about the day, Soft just doesn’t open.  I have had problems 
>> like this with other programs where just recently some updates whether it be 
>> windows 10 or the video drivers, have caused certain things to crash, and 
>> has caused me great anxiety.
>>  
>> From: Jonathan Moore
>> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 7:07 PM
>> To: Official Softimage Users Mailing 
>> List.https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=HMenLmc1uNJ3rjPOyl1s4u5K9nSTxbps_xDuoTXndRQ&s=Cg7kGi-IltcalneHNg8GUnm6OAvxNw5Ox4JoLW6pLvs&e=
>> Subject: Re: Softimage - not going away...
>>  
>> Those coming from the likes C4D and After Effects doing wonderful stuff in 
>> Houdini were in many cases already technical artists. One of the 
>> Aixsponza/Entagma boys (Manuel) started out in XSI as it happens, the other 
>> was skilled in Processing (Moritz). And Simon Holmedal was a math nerd long 
>> before he gazed eyes on C4D, never mind Houdini. Ben Watt on the other hand 
>> is a great example of a C4D artist not used to technical workflows who 
>> rapidly adapted to using Houdini as his main platform.  
>>  
>> Motion design is my thing and I encourage any artists I know to learn 
>> Houdini, but sadly for some, things don't click. At the moment I'm working 
>> with others on a Mograph/MASH type suite of tools for Houdini. Creating the 
>> cloners,  effectors and falloffs of a typical motion graphics plugin suite 
>> is the easy part, making it a 'gateway drug' into the delights of Houdini, a 
>> little harder! But we feel one of the major hooks is performance and luckily 
>> the v16 release cycle has seen critical SOP nodes become thread friendly 
>> (e.g. the Copy and Point SOP's for starters). C4D and Maya's motion design 
>> tools are throttled by a single threaded core, so a suite of tools in 
>> Houdini with similar capabilities, whilst being optimised for fully threaded 
>> workflows will hopefully provide further encouragement for motion artists to 
>> deepen their Houdini knowledge. ;)
>>  
>>> On 26 October 2017 at 21:30, Jordi Bares  wrote:
>>> No worries Jonathan..
>>>  
>>> It is nevertheless interesting that non-technical artists like those coming 
>>> from C4D and AfterEffects are jumping on Houdini and some really are doing 
>>> amazing work the like we haven’t seen so may be it will be an evolution in 
>>> the sense that understanding the processes may be fundamental for the type 
>>> of work they intend to do.
>>>  
>>> Anyway… good luck though
>>>  
>>> hugs
>>> jb
>>>  
 On 26 Oct 2017, at 19:41, Jonathan Moore  wrote:
  
 I wasn't intending to pick holes Jordi, so apologies if it came over that 
 way. But yes, be it nodal shading, nodal compositing or full  featured 
 end to end procedural modeling and animation; nodes scare the bejesus out 
 of a many artists. Personally, I find nodes a more visually descriptive 
 view of things but have come to realise there are many that don't share my 
 view.  :)
  
> On 26 October 2017 at 19:29, Jordi Bares  wrote:
> Indeed you are right, I probably have a skewed vision due to the fact 
> that everyone is now exposed to Nuke (and here XSI) which have node based 
> approaches but may be outside is not so obvious.
>  
> I hope you have fun though.  ;-)
> jb
>  
>  
>> On 26 Oct 2017, at 18:44, Jonathan Moore  
>> wrote:
>>  
>> Jordi, I'm only recounting the feedback I get from the artists I 
>> support. Some of these artists find nodal approaches per se as being 
>> technical.
>>  
>>>

Re: Softimage - not going away...

[Jordi Bares]

If your field is motion graphics and nonVFX FX... well then it’s clear you have 
to accept a certain level of programming and maths and tinkering with the 
software and how is architected.

Very interesting to invest time on higher manipulation layer... look forward to 
see that. 

Jb

Sent from my iPhone

> On 27 Oct 2017, at 00:07, Jonathan Moore  wrote:
> 
> Those coming from the likes C4D and After Effects doing wonderful stuff in 
> Houdini were in many cases already technical artists. One of the 
> Aixsponza/Entagma boys (Manuel) started out in XSI as it happens, the other 
> was skilled in Processing (Moritz). And Simon Holmedal was a math nerd long 
> before he gazed eyes on C4D, never mind Houdini. Ben Watt on the other hand 
> is a great example of a C4D artist not used to technical workflows who 
> rapidly adapted to using Houdini as his main platform.
> 
> Motion design is my thing and I encourage any artists I know to learn 
> Houdini, but sadly for some, things don't click. At the moment I'm working 
> with others on a Mograph/MASH type suite of tools for Houdini. Creating the 
> cloners, effectors and falloffs of a typical motion graphics plugin suite is 
> the easy part, making it a 'gateway drug' into the delights of Houdini, a 
> little harder! But we feel one of the major hooks is performance and luckily 
> the v16 release cycle has seen critical SOP nodes become thread friendly 
> (e.g. the Copy and Point SOP's for starters). C4D and Maya's motion design 
> tools are throttled by a single threaded core, so a suite of tools in Houdini 
> with similar capabilities, whilst being optimised for fully threaded 
> workflows will hopefully provide further encouragement for motion artists to 
> deepen their Houdini knowledge. ;)
> 
>> On 26 October 2017 at 21:30, Jordi Bares  wrote:
>> No worries Jonathan..
>> 
>> It is nevertheless interesting that non-technical artists like those coming 
>> from C4D and AfterEffects are jumping on Houdini and some really are doing 
>> amazing work the like we haven’t seen so may be it will be an evolution in 
>> the sense that understanding the processes may be fundamental for the type 
>> of work they intend to do.
>> 
>> Anyway… good luck though
>> 
>> hugs
>> jb
>> 
>>> On 26 Oct 2017, at 19:41, Jonathan Moore  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I wasn't intending to pick holes Jordi, so apologies if it came over that 
>>> way. But yes, be it nodal shading, nodal compositing or full featured end 
>>> to end procedural modeling and animation; nodes scare the bejesus out of a 
>>> many artists. Personally, I find nodes a more visually descriptive view of 
>>> things but have come to realise there are many that don't share my view.  :)
>>> 
>>> On 26 October 2017 at 19:29, Jordi Bares  wrote:
 Indeed you are right, I probably have a skewed vision due to the fact that 
 everyone is now exposed to Nuke (and here XSI) which have node based 
 approaches but may be outside is not so obvious.
 
 I hope you have fun though.  ;-)
 jb
 
 
> On 26 Oct 2017, at 18:44, Jonathan Moore  
> wrote:
> 
> Jordi, I'm only recounting the feedback I get from the artists I support. 
> Some of these artists find nodal approaches per se as being technical.
> 
> You, I and most on this list know this not to be the case, but we have to 
> be considerate that not all artists are wired the same as us.
> 
>> On 26 October 2017 at 18:13, Jordi Bares  wrote:
>> Could you give me an example of various stages of a production where you 
>> need those skills? I can only see a few places where you do and others 
>> that you might if you want to do complex stuff (like modern abstract 
>> motion graphics for example)
>> 
>> Let’s also remember, only recently we have Wrangle nodes and although 
>> they are awesome, you didn’t even have them a few years back yet you 
>> were able to do anything (slower of course) in other manners. A good 
>> example is the new Point Wrangle versus the old Point SOP.
>> 
>> I still think for Previz, Modelling, Animation (not technical FX 
>> animation), Layout, Shading, Texturing, Lighting and Rendering you need 
>> Zero skills.
>> 
>> But may be I am missing something.
>> jb
>> 
>> 
 On 26 Oct 2017, at 17:29, Jonathan Moore  
 wrote:
 
 The only way to learn a language well is to fully immerse into it, 
 same thing here… Houdini is not hard any more, UX and specially a more 
 viewport centric approach makes it very easy to start.
 True there is some vocabulary and weird things in a few areas but 
 those come easy if you really go for it.
>>> 
>>> I say this as a Houdini fan. Houdini is only an easy transition for 
>>> technical artists. I support teams of artists from fine art backgrounds 
>>> as well as technical artists and those with a fine art background even