[sqlite] Doc page revision request

[Petite Abeille]

> On Jul 22, 2015, at 12:40 AM, R.Smith  wrote:
> 
> Reminds me of the old saying:  I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a 
> frontal lobotomy!

Cheers to that! :D

[sqlite] Doc page revision request

[R.Smith]

On 2015-07-22 12:09 AM, Keith Medcalf wrote:

> It is not the word that is offensive (that is illogical and plainly 
> impossible).  It is the thing that is offended that is the problem -- the 
> gutter mind and carnal tendencies of the receiver -- I am sure there are 
> psychiatric descriptions of the disorder, but it is often linked to breast 
> feeding (or not breast feeding), drinking water, eating bread, or excessively 
> low self-esteem brought on by early religious zealotry and brain-washing.
>
> It is impossible for ME to offend YOU, it is YOU who caused yourself to be 
> offended by the thoughts you yourself conjured into your own mind.  Stop 
> whining and grow a pair or go see a therapist and get help with your 
> overactive imaginations.  I also understand that electroshock treatments can 
> be very effective in preventing people from causing themselves offense due to 
> their overactive imaginations (aversion therapy).

Couldn't agree more :)

To be fair though, I doubt the OP (Simon) had any thoughts on whether 
the offense is valid or not, or indeed the validity of the filter. He 
just faces a problem which happens to a lot of educators in that due to 
students having silly parents who use silly ISP's for medieval reasons, 
the students suffer holes in their education. So he tried to implore 
this forum to consider a few simple changes to circumvent the specific 
case of silliness so that we in effect help these students. I can't 
argue with that motive - but I still won't agree to the principle. I am 
however willing to join a lobby to besiege the ISP to filter better - 
and so should everyone within firing distance from it.

> In extreme cases, frontal lobotomy is also a highly effective treatment for 
> offense disorder.

Reminds me of the old saying:  I'd rather have a bottle in front of me 
than a frontal lobotomy!

[sqlite] Doc page revision request

[Bernardo Sulzbach]

Just to add some to the list of silly filters and silly silliness: at
home I can access everything, my school blocks wikipedia. I am not
kidding.

[sqlite] Doc page revision request

[R.Smith]

I have to agree with the web filter being at fault.

I am ambivalent to whether or not the word is innocuous or whether it 
can be misconstrued or even if, to some people, it is truly offensive.

What bothers me more is the idea that the rest of the World all needs to 
update their documentation (and way of communicating) because some 
incompetent web-filter design can't distinguish. What if tomorrow it 
starts regarding other innocuous words? Should we set the precedent of 
allowing it to dictate to us what can and cannot be said?
Fix the web-filter.
Plus, in my language, that "org" abbreviation is very offensive. So is 
"func". I doubt that should matter to the rest of the World though.

The irony is - these filters are so English-centric, I bet I can type a 
long list of words (and their colloquial abbreviations) in my native 
language, Dutch, French or Chinese that are thoroughly offensive and no 
filter would be any wiser.

I have compassion for people wanting their young to learn from the www 
but still be sheltered from the dangerous language one might encounter 
there. You can't have it both ways though, if you will use a web filter, 
the onus is on you to put pressure on the designers of that filter to do 
it better - not to ask the rest of the World to play nice with the 
filter. (If the latter worked, we wouldn't need any filters to start with).


That said, I also agree with Simon's second part about the WITH 
documentation would benefit from addition of more cte examples without 
recursion.

Cheers,
Ryan


On 2015-07-21 05:46 PM, Paul Sanderson wrote:
> The problem seems to be with the web filter and not the abbreviation
> cnt. I would suggest that the onus should be on them to adjust their...

> On 21 July 2015 at 16:34, Jim Callahan  
> wrote:
>> I Simon's point about idiotic web filters is valid.

[sqlite] Doc page revision request

[Keith Medcalf]

> I am ambivalent to whether or not the word is innocuous or whether it
> can be misconstrued or even if, to some people, it is truly offensive.

It is not the word that is offensive (that is illogical and plainly 
impossible).  It is the thing that is offended that is the problem -- the 
gutter mind and carnal tendencies of the receiver -- I am sure there are 
psychiatric descriptions of the disorder, but it is often linked to breast 
feeding (or not breast feeding), drinking water, eating bread, or excessively 
low self-esteem brought on by early religious zealotry and brain-washing.

It is impossible for ME to offend YOU, it is YOU who caused yourself to be 
offended by the thoughts you yourself conjured into your own mind.  Stop 
whining and grow a pair or go see a therapist and get help with your overactive 
imaginations.  I also understand that electroshock treatments can be very 
effective in preventing people from causing themselves offense due to their 
overactive imaginations (aversion therapy).  

In extreme cases, frontal lobotomy is also a highly effective treatment for 
offense disorder.

[sqlite] Doc page revision request

[Simon Slavin]

On 21 Jul 2015, at 4:46pm, Paul Sanderson  
wrote:

> The problem seems to be with the web filter and not the abbreviation
> cnt. I would suggest that the onus should be on them to adjust their
> filter to prevent filtering of an innocuous word (its only
> rude/offensive if the u is added).

Semantically, you're right.  But this is a web filter implemented by one of the 
big five ISPs here in Britain, set to its second most paranoid setting "Protect 
the children", and it filters out 'cnt' spelled just like that, replacing it 
with five asterisks.  The ISP has millions of customers and isn't going to 
change its filtering policy just because one user complained.  The student 
lives with their parents and has a younger sibling, and the father won't change 
the setting for his ISP customer profile.

I have seen the rude word spelled like that in SMS-chat.  You and I understand 
that if we block one form people will just move on to the next.  And I'm sure 
people who live in Penistone (a town in South Yorkshire) would agree with us.  
But that's not what the sort of people who use web-blockers think.

It seems an easy enough change and I thought it might be helpful to point it 
out.  No big problem if nothing is done about it, it's just one of my students 
out of many, and he can use the computers in the lab when he wants.

Simon.

[sqlite] Doc page revision request

[Paul Sanderson]

The problem seems to be with the web filter and not the abbreviation
cnt. I would suggest that the onus should be on them to adjust their
filter to prevent filtering of an innocuous word (its only
rude/offensive if the u is added).
Paul
www.sandersonforensics.com
skype: r3scue193
twitter: @sandersonforens
Tel +44 (0)1326 572786
http://sandersonforensics.com/forum/content.php?195-SQLite-Forensic-Toolkit
-Forensic Toolkit for SQLite
email from a work address for a fully functional demo licence


On 21 July 2015 at 16:34, Jim Callahan  
wrote:
> I Simon's point about idiotic web filters is valid.
>
> "Cnt" is innocuous in formal documentation where by context it clearly
> means "count", but think of how people type text messages. If an online
> chat board in html had text like messages then a machine learning algorithm
> (for a web filter) would tend to associate "cnt" with sexually explicit and
> racially offensive language that would not be appropriate for an elementary
> school aged child.
>
> By middle school the student and their friends are probably experimenting
> with the language
>
> Web  filters are sometimes used in corporations, government agencies and
> public facilities, so I can see why it might be an issue, even though "cnt"
> is completely innocuous in formal documentation in a way it would not be in
> a "how many ... does it take to change light bulb" joke or in a string of
> offensive expletives.
>
> It is a matter of context. And to a crudely programmed machine learning
> algorithm it is all html text with no context.
>
> Jim
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Bernardo Sulzbach <
> mafagafogigante at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> About using "cnt", it is by far not just this page. There are tons of
>> documentation and programming pages out there that use "cnt" instead
>> of "count".
>>
>> The last part of your message seems more valid, though.
>> ___
>> sqlite-users mailing list
>> sqlite-users at mailinglists.sqlite.org
>> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>>
> ___
> sqlite-users mailing list
> sqlite-users at mailinglists.sqlite.org
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users

[sqlite] Doc page revision request

[J Decker]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 3:51 PM, Bernardo Sulzbach <
mafagafogigante at gmail.com> wrote:

> Just to add some to the list of silly filters and silly silliness: at
> home I can access everything, my school blocks wikipedia. I am not
> kidding.
>
and wikipedia blocks knowledge of bosnian pyramids and ... why are all the
impact craters on the moon round?  Every single strike has been
perpendicular?

> ___
> sqlite-users mailing list
> sqlite-users at mailinglists.sqlite.org
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>

[sqlite] Doc page revision request

[Jonathan Moules]

For a slightly broader brushed overview of why the web-filter is wrong (a false 
positive), see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem

-Original Message-
From: sqlite-users-bounces at mailinglists.sqlite.org 
[mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@mailinglists.sqlite.org] On Behalf Of Bernardo 
Sulzbach
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2015 4:53 PM
To: General Discussion of SQLite Database
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Doc page revision request

> The problem seems to be with the web filter and not the abbreviation cnt.

Exactly. Let's not forget to mention that dick is a synonym for detective and 
that bitch is a female dog. "cnt" is fine in that context and the filter should 
likely be deactivated or updated.
Although it may be easier to just ask someone to replace stuff on that page, as 
I said before, "cnt" is used to mean "count" in many places, making it even 
clearer that the filter is the problem.

Good luck asking Oracle to update this:
http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/awt/List.html

On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Paul Sanderson  wrote:
> The problem seems to be with the web filter and not the abbreviation
> cnt. I would suggest that the onus should be on them to adjust their
> filter to prevent filtering of an innocuous word (its only
> rude/offensive if the u is added).
> Paul
> www.sandersonforensics.com
> skype: r3scue193
> twitter: @sandersonforens
> Tel +44 (0)1326 572786
> http://sandersonforensics.com/forum/content.php?195-SQLite-Forensic-To
> olkit
> -Forensic Toolkit for SQLite
> email from a work address for a fully functional demo licence
>
>
> On 21 July 2015 at 16:34, Jim Callahan  
> wrote:
>> I Simon's point about idiotic web filters is valid.
>>
>> "Cnt" is innocuous in formal documentation where by context it
>> clearly means "count", but think of how people type text messages. If
>> an online chat board in html had text like messages then a machine
>> learning algorithm (for a web filter) would tend to associate "cnt"
>> with sexually explicit and racially offensive language that would not
>> be appropriate for an elementary school aged child.
>>
>> By middle school the student and their friends are probably
>> experimenting with the language
>>
>> Web  filters are sometimes used in corporations, government agencies
>> and public facilities, so I can see why it might be an issue, even though 
>> "cnt"
>> is completely innocuous in formal documentation in a way it would not
>> be in a "how many ... does it take to change light bulb" joke or in a
>> string of offensive expletives.
>>
>> It is a matter of context. And to a crudely programmed machine
>> learning algorithm it is all html text with no context.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Bernardo Sulzbach <
>> mafagafogigante at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> About using "cnt", it is by far not just this page. There are tons
>>> of documentation and programming pages out there that use "cnt"
>>> instead of "count".
>>>
>>> The last part of your message seems more valid, though.
>>> ___
>>> sqlite-users mailing list
>>> sqlite-users at mailinglists.sqlite.org
>>> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>>>
>> ___
>> sqlite-users mailing list
>> sqlite-users at mailinglists.sqlite.org
>> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
> ___
> sqlite-users mailing list
> sqlite-users at mailinglists.sqlite.org
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users



--
Bernardo Sulzbach
___
sqlite-users mailing list
sqlite-users at mailinglists.sqlite.org
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users


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[sqlite] Doc page revision request

[Bernardo Sulzbach]

I understand that the filter is not something his father hacked with
Python in 10 minutes, but I don't think this will make anyone change
the page.
cnt is used by Oracle, Microsoft (there is even a .cnt extension if I
am not mistaken), and I'd also say that any big software company has
cnt somewhere.
And as Smith said, there are other languages out there. Even words
that are OK in Portugal Portuguese (puto, for instance) are not
family-friendly in Brazilian Portuguese.
So I guess that the lab computers will be the solution.

BTW, Google pointed me this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penistone
Damn, it exists.

[sqlite] Doc page revision request

[Simon Slavin]

Could someone take a look at



please ?  This page was inaccessible via a web filter used in one of my 
students' homes because of its use of the pseudo-word 'cnt'.  My guess is that 
this is because some online fora users use it as a form of a certain rude word 
used more commonly in British/Australian/etc. English than it is in American 
English.

Since this pseudo-word is just an arbitrary name, would it be possible to 
substitute its 9 mentions with whatever term it's an abbreviation of ?  I'm not 
certain but I think it means 'count'.  If COUNT is a reserved word in anything 
important (it's not in SQLite but perhaps the writer wants to avoid it anyway) 
some other word could be used.

Whoever wrote that page is obviously used to three letter abbreviations since 
'org' is used further down for an 'organisation' table.  That one doesn't seem 
to be a problem, or at least the filter report didn't mention it.

By the way, I think it easier to understand WITH when the explanation includes 
one or two examples of the Ordinary Common Table Expressions before it gets 
into recursion.  This allows the writer to explain the syntax and uses of WITH 
first, letting the student get used to those because they have to absorb the 
additional complications of RECURSIVE.  But that's just my opinion.

Of course, SQLite has sub-SELECTs as well, which may overlap with the use of 
WITH.

Simon.

[sqlite] Doc page revision request

[Bernardo Sulzbach]

> The problem seems to be with the web filter and not the abbreviation cnt.

Exactly. Let's not forget to mention that dick is a synonym for
detective and that bitch is a female dog. "cnt" is fine in that
context and the filter should likely be deactivated or updated.
Although it may be easier to just ask someone to replace stuff on that
page, as I said before, "cnt" is used to mean "count" in many places,
making it even clearer that the filter is the problem.

Good luck asking Oracle to update this:
http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/awt/List.html

On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Paul Sanderson
 wrote:
> The problem seems to be with the web filter and not the abbreviation
> cnt. I would suggest that the onus should be on them to adjust their
> filter to prevent filtering of an innocuous word (its only
> rude/offensive if the u is added).
> Paul
> www.sandersonforensics.com
> skype: r3scue193
> twitter: @sandersonforens
> Tel +44 (0)1326 572786
> http://sandersonforensics.com/forum/content.php?195-SQLite-Forensic-Toolkit
> -Forensic Toolkit for SQLite
> email from a work address for a fully functional demo licence
>
>
> On 21 July 2015 at 16:34, Jim Callahan  
> wrote:
>> I Simon's point about idiotic web filters is valid.
>>
>> "Cnt" is innocuous in formal documentation where by context it clearly
>> means "count", but think of how people type text messages. If an online
>> chat board in html had text like messages then a machine learning algorithm
>> (for a web filter) would tend to associate "cnt" with sexually explicit and
>> racially offensive language that would not be appropriate for an elementary
>> school aged child.
>>
>> By middle school the student and their friends are probably experimenting
>> with the language
>>
>> Web  filters are sometimes used in corporations, government agencies and
>> public facilities, so I can see why it might be an issue, even though "cnt"
>> is completely innocuous in formal documentation in a way it would not be in
>> a "how many ... does it take to change light bulb" joke or in a string of
>> offensive expletives.
>>
>> It is a matter of context. And to a crudely programmed machine learning
>> algorithm it is all html text with no context.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Bernardo Sulzbach <
>> mafagafogigante at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> About using "cnt", it is by far not just this page. There are tons of
>>> documentation and programming pages out there that use "cnt" instead
>>> of "count".
>>>
>>> The last part of your message seems more valid, though.
>>> ___
>>> sqlite-users mailing list
>>> sqlite-users at mailinglists.sqlite.org
>>> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>>>
>> ___
>> sqlite-users mailing list
>> sqlite-users at mailinglists.sqlite.org
>> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
> ___
> sqlite-users mailing list
> sqlite-users at mailinglists.sqlite.org
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users



-- 
Bernardo Sulzbach

[sqlite] Doc page revision request

[Bernardo Sulzbach]

About using "cnt", it is by far not just this page. There are tons of
documentation and programming pages out there that use "cnt" instead
of "count".

The last part of your message seems more valid, though.

[sqlite] Doc page revision request

[Jim Callahan]

I Simon's point about idiotic web filters is valid.

"Cnt" is innocuous in formal documentation where by context it clearly
means "count", but think of how people type text messages. If an online
chat board in html had text like messages then a machine learning algorithm
(for a web filter) would tend to associate "cnt" with sexually explicit and
racially offensive language that would not be appropriate for an elementary
school aged child.

By middle school the student and their friends are probably experimenting
with the language

Web  filters are sometimes used in corporations, government agencies and
public facilities, so I can see why it might be an issue, even though "cnt"
is completely innocuous in formal documentation in a way it would not be in
a "how many ... does it take to change light bulb" joke or in a string of
offensive expletives.

It is a matter of context. And to a crudely programmed machine learning
algorithm it is all html text with no context.

Jim


On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Bernardo Sulzbach <
mafagafogigante at gmail.com> wrote:

> About using "cnt", it is by far not just this page. There are tons of
> documentation and programming pages out there that use "cnt" instead
> of "count".
>
> The last part of your message seems more valid, though.
> ___
> sqlite-users mailing list
> sqlite-users at mailinglists.sqlite.org
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>