Re: boiler insulation
Dear Geoff, Sorry for the delay in answering. > To correct myself on the A3, there wasn't much play in the valve gear, > it was in the reverser and the linkage to the valve gear, more for my > satisfaction than the expectation of better running, as it runs very > well now. It is the same set of components that we are talking about - the reverser and all the links between the valve and the reverser. As I indicated in my original email about this problem, the running qualities amazingly are not that much affected by the asymmetry in the actual openings of the steam inlets. (This asymmetry is due to the wrong valve setting, due to the play in the above components which results in a `lag' or `hysteresis'.) But the actuall pulling power may be affected. I have only `tested by eye' on a very primitive bicycle air pomp. Probably proper testing on constant pressure of air or steam with load on wheels would provide the answer to the possible power loss and irregularity of running which this discussed asymmetry may cause. > > I did assemble a C&S Mogul--the play in all parts of the valve gear was > "overplayed".--It was sloppy! There was one fellow, whose name I can't > recall, who solved the problem by manufacturing all new valve gear! > Probably the only way to sure success! I appreciate your input and > experience on assembly and testing. Let's put it like this: it is indeed somewhat looser than I would have expected it to be. I found that the major contribution to this play in the C&S Mogul comes from the small `die block' in the expansion link which is probably about 0.2-0.3mm too small. I actually asked the amazingly quick and helpful Aster Service to send me the replacement blocks, but they were identical in size (surprise, surprise... ) Of course fabricating new blocks would take maybe 5 minutes for someone with the proper tools and machining experience but I have got neither, so I will at some stage perhaps look for someone to do this for me. An additional offender is the centre bushing in the supports/mountings of both the expansion links. The play there is as much as 0.2mm and again the replacement story repeats itself... Altogether there are not that many other links and I find that if this 0.5mm play would be reduced or eliminated, there would perhaps be 0.1-0.2 at most left altogether. But, in agreement with your findings and opinion, this may be perhaps cosmetic. What is however most alarming for me (as I have absolutely no experience with Stephenson valve gear and reversers) it seems that the running on very, very small opening of the valve gear with reverser just off the centre position, while it indeed slows the running speed significantly, also induces a rather violent and irregular running characteristic. I wonder whether this is also the case in real life, full size engines? If not, can this be helped in a simplified small-scale engine? Is this a matter of timing which can be changed or does the valve gear need to be altered in order to provide different timing characteristics? Thank you for all the help and happy steaming! Zbigniew > > Steam on, > > Geoff. > > > > > > > > Dear Geoff, > >Thank you for your kind words. As I elaborated on in another email > >just sent, I am still hesitant about the gap. Measurements convince > >me, although the extra amount of work and the need to shop for the > >components may be a strong counter-argument. I haven't decided yet. > >I have to remark that my efforts to keep every Joule of energy in > >place should make me a perfect Dutchman;^)! But as to my origins, > >they are more steam-and-narrow-gauge-land than under-water-land! > >I am most intrigued by your work on removing the play in the valve > >gear. I believe this is a long researched phenomenon in the C&S Mogul, > >but I have recently been playing around with the valve gear wondering > >if the play of about 1 mm should not be reduced... (the steam inlets > >in the cylinders are about 1.5 mm!!) In effect symmetrical steam > >transfer is only possible in one direction (say forward) while > >the other direction will be strongly asymmetrical (only one side of the > >cylinder will receive steam). Surprisingly, air test only shows > >later activation of the movement in the asymmetrical direction, not > >a much more violent and irregular (un-smooth) running. In fact, for > >small openings of the reverser the running is very nervous and violent > >in both directions (symmetrical and asymmetrical steam inlet opening) > >to the same degree. This would mean that there is little practical > >need for removing the play, it would only shorten the dead region > >in the reverser range but not improve the running for small opening. > >Happy steaming! > >Zbigniew > > > > >
Re: boiler insulation
Dear Geoff, Thank you for your kind words. As I elaborated on in another email just sent, I am still hesitant about the gap. Measurements convince me, although the extra amount of work and the need to shop for the components may be a strong counter-argument. I haven't decided yet. I have to remark that my efforts to keep every Joule of energy in place should make me a perfect Dutchman;^)! But as to my origins, they are more steam-and-narrow-gauge-land than under-water-land! I am most intrigued by your work on removing the play in the valve gear. I believe this is a long researched phenomenon in the C&S Mogul, but I have recently been playing around with the valve gear wondering if the play of about 1 mm should not be reduced... (the steam inlets in the cylinders are about 1.5 mm!!) In effect symmetrical steam transfer is only possible in one direction (say forward) while the other direction will be strongly asymmetrical (only one side of the cylinder will receive steam). Surprisingly, air test only shows later activation of the movement in the asymmetrical direction, not a much more violent and irregular (un-smooth) running. In fact, for small openings of the reverser the running is very nervous and violent in both directions (symmetrical and asymmetrical steam inlet opening) to the same degree. This would mean that there is little practical need for removing the play, it would only shorten the dead region in the reverser range but not improve the running for small opening. Happy steaming! Zbigniew > Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > X-Listserver: Macjordomo 1.5 - Macintosh Listserver > Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 16:27:18 -0700 > From: Geoff Spenceley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Hi, Steve, Tony, and Zbigniew, > > Thanks for all the information on boiler insulation, it's very informative > with great ideas and I shall keep it my files for future reference! Thanks > to all three of you--and others who contributed! But as that knowledgeable > Dutchman noted, he'll probably use the air space for the time being, so > will I. The damp air in Humboldt County should do it and I can breath in a > little hot air, er, with Tony's help! > > But for now I am working on reducing the play in the reversing of the > valve gear of the Aster Flying S, some of which I have accomplished (with > a Sherline I've owned for 25 years!)!). I have also received some great > ideas from Lindsay Crow, the renowned Aussie who has assembled 57 Asters! > Also, I worry about the the way the lubricator is placed.- I suspect that > there may be a problem with oil reaching the outside cyls. More coming from > Lindsay on that too, which should help. > > These Ausssies have some wonderful Railroads too with wonderful GTGs. but > remember: You can call an Englishman an Aussie, but never, NEVAH I say; > call an Aussie an Englishman, those ex-convicts will kill you. > > Geoff. > > > > > > >
Re: boiler insulation
Dear Tony, Thank you for the great account of the temperature testing! This is, of course, the way to proceed, to carry out precise measurements. I have in fact reconsidered the issue after I read your results and associated the obvious benefit of insulating with ceramic sheet with another idea of a sandwich-like insulator structure (I lost the reference to whoever suggested it, sorry). The sandwich idea really appeals to me! Sandwich-like structures have been successfully applied in many areas and also in heat insulation. In fact, it seems possible to kill a couple of birds with it. A sandwich-like composition of ceramic sheet and aluminium foil should provide almost space-age insulating properties and can be made to be waterproof on the side of the boiler. I would probably opt for two layers of 0.5-1.0 mm ceramic sheet between three layers of aluminium foil. However, I would put a thin layer of isolation between the boiler and the aluminium - I think copper and aluminium have very different electrochemical potentials which may lead to corrosion of the boiler even without any water! Perhaps painting the boiler with heat resistant silver paint (like that used for home radiators) would be sufficient to protect the boiler from corrosion. Alternatively, isolating aluminium with a layer of thin glass fibre fabric like that used in small blankets for home (kitchen) fire extinguishing may be another option. They are extremely smooth and would not accumulate any water (the reason for not using ceramic sheet or wool like stuff in direct contact with the boiler), but I am not certain if they are just plain woven fibre or coated with some stuff. Fixing the lot in place and around sensitive places with some heat resistant silicone kit (some work up to 400 C) should provide enough protection from air, steam and water from above and any other side, like the smoke box. However, I would perhaps leave the sandwich open from the bottom (small narrow gap or a few holes) to let possible air/steam/water escape. Now, this seems to be a lot of consideration for the little engine that I am putting together. It is a stock Aster C&S Mogul, and I am sure there are many of them running without any insulation just like Aster intended. I gather from various comments that an absolute majority of Asters don't have any insulation around the boiler, but the only other Aster in my possession - Frank S is insulated, perhaps to prove its exceptional status;^)! Concluding, the measurement arguments are most convincing. So far, after having eliminated the corrosion argument, other than cost, mess and work, I see no reason for not applying insulation. 30+ deg. C temperature difference measured means a lot of heat, probably more than my out-of-the blue 5%. The difference in engine size and boiler type etc. may however matter a lot. Still, I would expect larger relative loss of heat for smaller rather than larger engines (of the same design) due to larger surface/volume ratio of smaller engines. Best regards and happy steaming! Zbigniew PS While extensive dwelling on the subject of heat escape should make me a perfect Dutchmen;^), I'm not - I just happen to live under the sea...!
Re: boiler insulation
> I like your "On the matter of insulation remember that whatever we use, it > is the layer of air trapped between boiler shell and wrapper that provides > the reduction in heat transfer" > > Perhaps this is why Aster doesn't put insulation on all their boilers? Just > a good air space. > > Geoff Geoff, First many thanks to everyone who replied to my question. Second: Mike is right that the air *trapped* is a great insulator. Trapped is important here. If the space is too large, air begins to circulate and most of its insulating properties are lost due to the way of heat exchange called convection. I believe this process starts playing a role when the space is about 1cm which would mean that the 2-3mm space that we usually have between the boiler and the wrapper is still well below. Wool like materials (natural, mineral or glass substitutes) work by trapping the air in tiny cavities and this is why they can be used to fill large spaces and provide great insulation properties of the air. This of course makes foam plastic a great insulator too and I believe this is also the reason why wood and not very dense cardboard are good insulators. For those ultimately budget oriented;^) old newspapers provide great thermal insulation! But there are of course better and much better insulators than the air. I believe argon is used to fill the space between glass panes in, double or triple, insulated windows. Pumping out the air would also greatly improve isolation properties. Asbest and its modern ceramic replacements have much better insulation properties, this is why they are used for oven insulation and in our steamers for insulating the smokebox! In conclusion - either calculations or tests would probably provide the definitive answer. Trapped air in 2-3mm space is great if it does not move (entirely enclosed, no holes etc) But we still have another way of heat conduction called radiation which will transfer the heat from the boiler to the wrapper. Air will probably not shield much of this. Better insulator might (eg ceramic sheet). Ultimately, these are probably not such great heat losses after all, I would be surprised if they exceed 5% of the total energy used. So I will probably stick to the empty space since I am concerned about the moisture accumulation in or under the insulation and the subsequent corrosion of the boiler. I run engines in the rain and high humidity conditions (Netherlands) I have also already observed corrosion on the gas tank in the tender, but I must admit that I left it filled with water for a prolonged period. This leads me to another question, would it not be better to use oil (as good a heat conductor as water) or some kind of gel to fill the container around the gas tank?? I would think that gel providing either a great heat conduction or heat (storage) capacity might be good. Happy steaming! Zbigniew
boiler insulation
Dear Friends, I have about 2.0-2.5mm space between the boiler and the jacket and I wonder whether insulating the boiler would be a good idea and what the best material for this would be. I am considering ceramic sheet like the one used for the smokebox insulation or mineral or glass wool. The only thing that I am concerned with would be possible moisture accumulation and corrosion to the boiler. Many thanks for any advice! Happy steaming, Zbigniew
Re: Lead weights in a Ruby/Forney
> Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 11:12:30 -0600 > From: VR Bass <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > On 5 Sep 2002 at 11:45, Walt Gray wrote: > > Any comment on the effect on the lead of the temperatures in the smoke box? > > I predict it won't last long. I optimistically (and foolishly) tried putting a Not only that but it would not be healthy either (all this lead vapour!)... Zbyszek
Re: Argyle conversion
> I have a Bachmann (plastic, 1:22.5) "Lyn" on my shelf here next to > my Argyll, and I doubt it would be an easy conversion. The outside > frames are a major stumbling block. In addition, "Lyn" was a 2-4-2T > with large drivers and inside valve gear. > > But a bigger problem is that "Lyn" was made for export, and to my > knowledge that Baldwin model did not sell here in the US. > > However, noting your comment about NZ and Oz, check out the NA class > in use on the 'Puffing Billy' railway ( > http://www.puffingbilly.com.au/fan/ ). These are a similar Baldin > design, with outside frames and a 2-6-2T wheel arrangement. Maybe > you could bend history the other way, and re-import an Aussie loco? > > Pete > Pete, I remember `Lyn' was among products offered by djb engineering. http://www.djbengineering.co.uk/ Unfortunately David Bailey seems to have suspended business. With regard to hte NA class, http://www.argyleloco.com.au/ will provide you with some more info (including possible 2nd hand locos). Cheers, Zby Standard Disclaimer (unfortunately... ;^)
Re: Tender Hand Pump
> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:10:46 -0400 > From: "robbandcheryl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Has any one experimented with a tender pump into a Goodall valve? > > I have been thinking about that my self. > The same thougth that I had! I wondered if I could feed my Frank S from the tender or side tanks in this way... Zby_S
Travel info: Aster dealers in Tokyo/Japan
Dear Friends, I am going to Tokyo and Kyoto for a short trip and I wondered if Japan is a good place for Aster deals. I suppose I should email Aster if they have a representative in Tokyo but I wondered if any of you have some knowledge of good model RR's shops in Tokyo or Kyoto (carrying Aster for example)... Any hints on 1:1 narrow gauge steam attractions around the place would also be most appreciated! Best RR'ing wishes, Zbigniew Amsterdam
Re: Accucraft speculation
Well spotted, and a very nice engine! Let's hope this will be Accucraft's next release... I guess it is two cylinder engine. In fact cylinders and other drive parts are not drawn. If you would like to have a better look go to http://www.cwi.nl/~zbyszek/AC/ACshayN.jpg for a normal size picture and to http://www.cwi.nl/~zbyszek/AC/ACshay.jpg for a somewhat bigger one;^) best wishes, Zby PS DJB in England makes a very similar early style Shay
Re: Ruby Tender
Hi Don, Roundhouse in UK sells separately the tender from their William loco. I hope it is not too wide for Ruby. William is 125mm wide so I suppose so is the tender Check http://roundhouse-eng.com/ go to Parts Good luck Zbigniew > Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:30:02 -0500 > From: "Don Plasterer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I am looking for a tender to go behind my Ruby. I'm not very > good at scratch building but don't mind doing a "bash". Does > anyone know of a small tender (non-sloped back)? Metal or > plastic.
Re: TURNTABLE
> > I am looking for turntable ( 45mm gauge, more than 80cm long ). > Please tell me how to get it. > > Jun Kitsukawa Lotus lokstation sells their own 80cm turntable (1:22.5 or 1:32) but it is rather expensive: Full automat 6150DM, manual 2900DM and some options in between. Fortunately for you the yen/dm exchange rate is probably getting beter each day. Here is some info in German: http://195.96.33.26/domains/lotuslok/eigene_drehscheibe_d.html I have no relation with Lotus Lokstation neither have I ever bougth anyting from them. Zbigniew
Re: minimum radius Climax by DJB Engineering
Fellow Live Steamers, I thought that you may be interested in the (tentative) outcome of the DJB Climax radius question. I spoke on the phone with my friend today and he is so desperate to get this loco that he actually considers (moving to another country...;) not I'm just joking here. Things are not that desperate but he does consider changing his rails to USA trains 3m radius instead of LGB R3 in case the Climax can't make it on R3 ... Pretty drastic if you ask me but then as Lloyd said this hobby is like gambling and other bad habits... I only wonder how he is going to fit this 3m radius in his back yard!! I think he has the same width as mine which is just over 6m wide... For a (live steam) addict there is no impossible thing it would seem... Happy steaming! Zbigniew Amsterdam PS I have no association with DJB (unfortunately) but they seem to have a very interesting British range and a few new US items. The (T-boiler 2 cylinder) Shay is so pretty!!
what to do in New Zealand??
Hi People, Is there anything to do train-wise (narrow gauge steam/garden railways, G-scale shops) in New Zealand?? Totally unexpectedly I will be in Auckland from 20 April to 24 April. Thank you, Zbigniew
Re: minimum radius Climax by DJB Engineering
> Why not write to David Bailey DAVID BAILEY and ask? > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Vance and Mike, The seemingly obvious way to get this info by asking DJB Engineering directly did not seem to work very reliably for my friend. When asked what the minimum radius is they quoted 1.40m but asked whether it runs on R3 the answer was 'it should be no problem...' Of course I understand that nobody in their right senses uses LGB rail for live steam in England, having their own excellent products like Peco or Tenmillee and somewhat more space to run their trains. I can therefore imagine that DJB people don't even have R3 piece of rail to try out... But for my friend this info is absolutely critical so I hoped one of you will have the loco of know someone who has it and can try it out on R3. Zbigniew
minimum radius Climax by DJB Engineering
Fellow Live Steamers, A friend of mine wants to buy a class A Climax by DJB Engineering. Normally speaking this would not be a problem but the trouble is he lives under the sea, just as I do... As you can imagine, obtaining a piece of dry land is difficult so we live here like a shoal of fish, all one on top of another so to speak... The largest radius that he managed to sqeeze into his 'garden' is LGB R3 radius. Now the question is: Has anyone got one of these Climaxes or can otherwise verify whether it will run on R3??? For my friend this is critical, so if you know the answer or know someone who has this loco please let me know! Thanks! Zbigniew Netherlands.
Re: good Alisan Shay
> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:43:47 -0800 > From: Clark Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Well it looks like I'm late with my Saturday trial run report on my > Shay. I did run it and attempted to steam it with out using a suction > fan. I serviced the engine and lit the wicks and left the auxiliary air > doors on the left side open. We waited 30 minutes with no steam. When > I couldn't stand it anymore I applied the fan and we had steam in less > than 2 minutes. I had to refill the alcohol tank before departing. I > had used a full tank of alcohol trying to raise steam in the first 30 > minutes. [...] Dear Clark, Thank you very much for doing the tests and sorry for the delay in replying. As Geoff pointed out too, it is good to know the definitive answer to the pot boiler question. I am surprised that Aster put it wrong in their manual. But I am sorry that you waisted the whole tank of alcohol!! Should we ever meet, I will recompense this with interest in your favourite blend of C2H5OH (unless you are tea-total). As to the speed, it seems that the Shay can run relatively slowly. With the RC, I think it could be operated `realistically'. > > Zbigniew, I'm sure you will be well satisfied with the C & S mogul. > They are very good runners and pull several cars. They are easy to R/C > and if you can get copies of Larry Bangham's articles in Steam in the > Garden you will see his many modifications. His just runs super. I > especially like the electric servo operated water pump in the tender and > his whistle. Yes, the Mogul has now been reinstated. The modifications you mentioned are just what I would most want on the Mogul! I will certainly look for the articles. > Good Luck with what ever you get and be sure to share it with us. Of course I will, Many thanks again! Zbigniew
Re: good Alisan Shay
Many thanks to everyone who replied about the Alisan Shay, Clark, Jim, Geoff and Tony. I hope I listed all of you. It is wonderful that one can just ask a question on this list and get an instant response from more knowledgable ones at the other side of the world. Anyway back to the Shay, I gave it a good look last Saturday and indeed, it is a lovely little Shay. Very delicate, maybe even the smallest ever produced in live steam. This particular one has most likely been put together from a kit by the previous owner and stood on a display shelf for more than twenty years. The dust has been wiped off but could still be seen on the detail and in all the corners and joints. It has never been fired, this is obvious, but it was also obvious that before it is fired, it would have to be disasambled almost entirely and put together to a working condition. Some tuning and maybe replacment of sealings would be necessary. I spotted one wheel set having the problem described by Geoff (too much spacing - gears not mashing). Probably all would need to be modified in a simple way, washers or springs with thrust balls. This is one of the reasons I decided not to buy this particular one. Without instructions (there is no box either) and with almost no experience, I am a bit afraid to embark on a project like this. It would also be too time consuming for me, but I know I am probably below average of you with regard to the time I can spend on this hobby. Another thing is the limited amount of space for RC. I start understanding why some of you prefer 1:20. I would even say that if we take the 1:1 twelve inch to the foot models as the reference which allows being stepped on, our models should be accesible to fingers. The inch is derived from a thumb's width, so the scale one inch to the foot seems most practical for live steam. 1:12 thus, not quite an unknown scale! So considering all the above, and the fact that gas seems somewhat more comfortable to me, I decided to let this particular one go. The shop owner asks the equivallent of some 2700 USD and this seems a lot to me, but maybe it's interesting to one of you. In such a case, please let me know and I will put you in touch with the shop-keeper. I would give his coordinates in Holland here but I suppose I would then be violating some of the list regulations. So thanks again for all the info. I have learned a lot from it! Happy steaming,' Zbigniew
Re: How good is Alisan Shay?
> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:32:39 -0500 > From: "James S. Burns, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The speed is slow > due to gears, but prototypical geared engines all ran slow. It looks > good with several log cars behind it. The gears give it good power, as > they did in real scale. I like mine. Jim Burns Thank you Jim, I guess where you have two live steamers you will have two opinions...;^) So yours runs slow. That is a good thing because I like it slow. Unfortunately Clark's runs fast;^) I guess, I will have a look myself. Thanks, Zbigniew
Re: How good is Alisan Shay?
Clark, many thanks for your extensive reply! Of course I noticed you with your Shay in your national steam-up 98 web coverage. > > I wonder how difficult it is to steam and to control? > > Mine runs just fine. The fire was too hot to suit me so I changed the > wicks from fiber strings to 100 mesh screen wire rolled into a tube for > the 1st and 3rd wick tubes and left the center one with fiber wicks cut > short, about 1/4 inch above metal tube. The center one acts like a > pilot light for the metal ones. As with all meths engines you need a > fan to provide the starting draft. Hmm, the Aster manual/catalogue says that the pot boiler is an exception and can be used without the fan. I am confused. > > Also its capacity is quite small, 140cc. This probably > > means a rather short running time... > But it does have a bunker hand pump which can be used to refill the > boiler while under steam. That's a good thing! Not mentioned in the catalogue but I hope that it is a standard option (not installed by the previous owner of yours). > A engine that old will have dried out seals and such. There will be a > few steam leaks but those can be fixed. I know what you are talking about... I once bought an almost unused car which essentially stood in a garage for 20 year. I got it running in the end but it nearly ended up in the scrap yard. > > Also acquiring it would mean postponing the Aster C&S Mogul > > kit for substantial length of time, so I have to think hard. > Well I paid $1900 USD for mine. It was not new but had seen light That is considerably less than what the shop asks (equivalent of some 3000 USD) I have noticed them (used and rebuilt) a couple of times in the past on the swap for around 2000 USD. But of course the guy in the shop wants to get his part too. > usage. It runs just fine. I get around 20-25 minutes per tank full of > fuel. I have to refill the boiler once during that time. You can > refill the fuel tank while in steam if you want. You must close the > firing valve. Leave the blower on low and refill the tank. Then open > the firing valve and away you go. I wonder if you have RC installed. I only want to run with RC, so that is why I asked whether you can control it well. I mean how good is the response of the steam regulator and the Stephenson valve gear. > small engine. The Alisan Shay is geared too high and runs very fast. > It is hard to slow it down to scale. speed. This is because the > Japanese modelers like to run their engines fast. So the Shay is a > speed demon when geared 1:2. It would be much better geared 1:4. This is a serious disadvantage for me. I like running real slow and hearing the steam. I guess it can be regeared but it seems like a waste to attack an immaculate collectors item which peacefully slept for more than twenty years... Thanks again, Zbigniew
Re: How good is Alisan Shay?
> In truth, that Shay is a fascinating loco to run, one of the most > impressive features is the very fine three cyl engine. I did not assemble I expected a great reproduction of the engine from Aster. So I'm glad you confirm it. > it from a kit but I believe it was assembled by the retail store whence I > purchased it. (1979) . OK, so they were also in kit form. I will have to give it a good look. > I understand that Aster provided the kit with the engine portion already > assembled--good thinking!! The drive gears and the gears on the wheels > were not meshing properly and I found it necessary to install a thrust > ball and spring on the axle ends opposite the gears in order to keep them > properly engaged without binding. No doubt there are other means of > solving that problem. Thank you for the hints! > Gotta go, I had a complete knee replacement 3 weeks ago and that cotton > picking surgeon has stolen my old knee! > Geoff. Good luck! Zbigniew
How good is Alisan Shay?
Fellow live steamers, Does anyone of you have any experience with the Aster Alisan Shay? I wonder how difficult it is to steam and to control? >From the Netherlands point of view it is also important to know how sensitive it is to cold weather. The boiler is the pot type, and from what I understand this is not being used on recent Aster (or anyone else's) releases. Also its capacity is quite small, 140cc. This probably means a rather short running time... I have no experience at all with methyl fueling but I would be willing to try it. There is a Shay for sale which has reportedly never been steamed yet (in 23 years!!) A good opportunity for collectors but I need a well working machine... Also acquiring it would mean postponing the Aster C&S Mogul kit for substantial length of time, so I have to think hard. Please share your own or recounted opinions! Thank you, Zbigniew PS I believe Alishan is a more appropriate spelling of the name, see http://www.atmos.ucla.edu/~cwhung/alishan.html
Re: Wilesco Spreewald...anyone run one yet?
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:54:41 -0700 > From: "VR Bass" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > [...] > OK, I know there a protype for it, but it's not a particularly appealing > one to my eye. And if ZS puts his ruler to it, we will probably > discover that it's too long in this direction, too short in that one. In this case you don't need a ruler Vance . Can see it with a naked eye...;^) Zbigniew
Re: puffing billy Rlwy and Zbigniew,
> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 20:09:40 +1100 > From: "Gordon Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Zbigniew, > I was glad to see your final infection with steam took place on > our Railway.. > If you can remeber the trip,after the first station[Menzies Creek] the > train ran down hill with long views out to the right hand side over [...] Dear Gordon, Thank you very much for the note! I was actually going to ask on the list whether you have ever produced this loco because it did not escape my attention that you have it in your logo. Maybe I will be fortunate enough to come across it some time. Or maybe you will start making it again at some stage...? Puffing Billy is going to celebrate 100 years birthday next year, that should be a good opportunity for someone to make it more popular. It has such unique motive power! The Garratt is just brilliant. I got the book about it at the Belgrave station. In live steam this would be a true dream to have... And I suppose a nightmare to make... Apparently (if I can see it right in Vance's web pages) a firm called DJB in England makes a distant cousin of the NA class loco the 2-4-2 Baldwin of the Lynton & Barnstaple. (This is the same loco as the one Bachmann released.) This is however by far not as pretty (personal bias here) as the NA class... Unfortunately I did not go further than the Menzies Creek station. I had only half a day for this trip and so I could only travel the first part. Gives me a good reason to go there again!! I will have a good look at the Argyle shed then;^). Best wishes, Zbigniew
Re: Frank S (was Axle pumps and such )
> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:33:05 + > From: Sam Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I believe Frank S was of a class of loco produced for Heersfeld(SP/)bahn? > German Military Railways in WWII. Though many lines in occupied territory > tended to be 750/760mm ga it is my understanding that these locos were run > on metre ga lines. Whether they were readily convertible or turned out of Sam, the very prototype of the Heeresfeldbahn Frank S by Henschel run on the Rugen Island (which was not an occupied territory, at least was not perceived as such). And the Rugen line is 750mm gauge. I still haven't located this loco type in Poland but I guess there must have been a few. I wonder what gauge they used. In Austria they used 760mm mainly if not exclusively. > the works to a specific gauge I don't know. I will have to get Mary to do > some translation for me; I will dig my German language book in the subject > out tonight to clarify the issue. I will be really interested to know! > > >Actually the whole issue of scale/gauge correctness is not quite well > >applicable to European engines. There are examples of locomotives > >which ran on several different gauges, either they were produced that > >way or regauged when moved from one line to another. > > I'm not entirely in agreement here. I think this is an over generalisation > and not typical. I said there are examples. I did not say they all were produced for various gauges. Some were and some were not. > The locos produced in WWII and some industrial designs were by their nature > intended to be turned out in different gauges. Designs where a single loco > could have its gauge readily converted I think were fairly rare. The Take the quite famous Px48 Polish narrow gauge loco. Produced after the war in thousands I think, exported around the place, and run in Poland on a multitude of gauges from 750 to meter gauge. I would be happy to provide you with many examples of locomotives which were regauged in Poland, and I can give you examples of quite interesting gauges used. Still I have little data (due to little interest) on German or French or Italian narrow gauge, in that sense my statement possibly is an over generalisation. On the other hand, just yesterday I localised some info on the Puffing Billy Baldwins and you can check yourself the different gauges listed which this standard design happily shared. What a beautiful loco by the way!!! http://www.pbr.org.au/heritage/baldwin.htm Happy steaming! Zbigniew
Re: Frank S (was Axle pumps and such)
Richard, By the way, there is a great page of information about another Heeresfeldbahn Borsig loco 0-10-0. It looks a lot like Frank, so I thought you might enjoy it. http://www.snafu.de/~zipkat/aquarius/aquarius.html (notice that is 750mm which also run on 600mm in 1942/43) Zbigniew
Re: Frank S (was Axle pumps and such)
Richard, By the way, there is a great page of information about another Heeresfeldbahn Borsig loco 0-10-0. It looks a lot like Frank, so I thought you might enjoy it. http://www.snafu.de/~zipkat/aquarius/aquarius.html (notice that is 750mm which also run on 600mm in 1942/43) Zbigniew.
Re: Axle pumps and such (was Goodall Valve)
> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:28:01 -0700 > From: "VR Bass" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [...] > By the way, while we're on the topic of Frank S, I thought of that > engine when we were discussing water glasses. The Frank takes > an approach I've seen on Wilesco stationary engines, but not on > any other locomotive model. It has a large (ca. 2.5cm) porthole on > the backhead. You can look right into the boiler through it. It never > fogs up, and never gets bubbles or other locks. I wonder why it's Indeed it works quite well, but I suppose that water glass has a more prototypical appeal and that is why it is mostly used. > not used more often? You could hide it behind a clamshell firedoor, > for example.. I don't think this would work.. The glass is located in the upper half of the boiler and the firedoor really should be in the lower half. That's where the gas burner is located. Zbigniew
Frank S (was Axle pumps and such )
Richard, by all means I did not want to discourage you from buying the Frank. The drawings in Slezak book are 1:100 and I cannot say for 100% that the dimensions are really wrong. I will continue looking for more detailed information. Sam Evans tries to find out whether any of the Frank's prototypes run on the meter gauge. To me these issues do not matter terribly much. The locomotive goes well with some of the LGB rolling stock and runs on the readily available 45mm track. Zbigniew
Re: Axle pumps and such (was Goodall Valve)
> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:29:11 -0800 > From: Richard Finlayson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [...] > > The Frank S. is an awesome engine that takes second to none IMO. In > addition to the fine engineering and running characteristics, it's > a scale > model (for meter gauge on 45mm). And for the prices that show up on Swap > Shop they have to be one of the best values (intermittently) available. [...] Richard, I am more than pleased to hear you have such a high estime of what is my first live steamer. I like it too and I think it performs quite well. Unfortunately I have to disilusion you as to its `scale'. It is close to 1:22.5 but I think LGB provided Aster with their own drawings in which they usually reshape the model as to boost its `cuteness'. This is done by making the model taller than it should be so vertical scale works to some +/- 1:20. Also the width is often affected. To date I have been unable to get precise drawings of the Frank prototype but from the ones I found in Slezak book on Austria NG RR's this cuteness theory seems to be verified. As to scale/gauge relationship which you mentioned, this is actually a misunderstanding. The metre gauge although present in some parts of Europe is by far not the only narrow gauge! Frank's prototype probably never actually ran on the metre gauge. Most if not all ran on 760mm and perhaps on some other neighbouring gauges ranging from 600 to 900. But a metre gauge seems unlikely to me although I would be most interested in being proven wrong. Actually the whole issue of scale/gauge correctness is not quite well applicable to European engines. There are examples of locomotives which ran on several different gauges, either they were produced that way or regauged when moved from one line to another. Happy steaming! Zbigniew Amsterdam
bio
Dear Live Steamers, Following Vance's final threat, here is my short train/steam bio. Although I was born in the space era really (Gagarin's flight) and in most countries steam was a history then, I had the fortune of being born in Poland. My parents rented a small house which was probably not farther than 50 yards from the Radom main train station. I cannot verify this any more since the house is no more, the entrance to the tunnel for passengers under the station is in that exact location... My daily trips from the kindergarten at the age of two became a delight when I discovered a turntable with steam engines being rotated which I could watch through a hole in the concrete fence at an appropriate height. Around the same time ,I got started with the RR modeling. Quite advanced stuff;^) battery powered 0 scale, metal rails, bakelite body of the locomotive, tin metal rolling stock. I still have a few pieces;^( and until very recently I was not able to determine the manufacturer. Most surprisingly an article in Model Railroader a few years ago solved the mystery. The East German firm Zeuke which used to produce TT stuff started with 0 scale before they moved to TT! To cut a long story short, if you start like me you are bound to come back to it at some stage (I have to admit there were some years without trains in between). Around the late 80's, already in Holland, Eindhoven, I was looking again at model trains. This time it was something even bigger than 0 scale. A few LGB pieces on the shelf looked very attractive and a 88/89 LGB catalogue had two pictures which turned into a dream: the Pennsy and C&S moguls looked just awesome and opened up to me a completely unknown world of modern American narrow gauge steam. Unfortunately the price was prohibitive. A couple years later MR came with an option Bachmann Classic pennsy set was the first G train I bought. Many of you will attest that once you make that first move you are hooked and the prices/space and other problems get smaller as the disease progresses. Again we have to make a jump to make the story shorter. Electrical stuff was and is nice but there was something very relevant missing in them. I kept thinking how one could improve smoke or even steam' generation from these engines. The sound of most advanced digital stuff is just plain annoying. Moving aquaria, as Vance once called electrically driven steam engine models, weren't completely satisfying... Around that time I started traveling a little and visited some of the famous or completely unknown narrow gauge lines in operation. Durango and Silverton, Sroda Wielkopolska and the Puffing Billy line. I think this was the last one where I got the revelation!! It was April 98 very moist day in the Australian bush, I was in the first wagon behind double headed engines. The steam overwhelmed me, this was what I missed all this time and there was no way back. Frank S was ordered after some half a year search for this loco. I decided to start with it since quality and reliability really matter to me after 10+ LGB/Aster engines. Moreover it was supposedly an easy starter. It beautifully fulfilled all promises (although it may need some tuning as Vance pointed out). My newly designed Fir Forest Railroad has an engine and 1 wagon now. I am thinking about getting myself the Aster C&S Mogul to pull stacks of US outline, but if I could get hold of the models of two (Baldwin?) engines which pulled the train in Belgrave I would probably give them preference. Ok that's it, it turned out to be quite long, sorry for that. Zbigniew Amsterdam PS Phyl, I think the closest I found in pronunciation to my name is Zbigniew;^). The easier version which some people use is Zbyszek, so choose the one you prefer!
Re: what scale is that? (was Welcome ...)
> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 22:16:25 +1030 > From: "Kathy & Phil Creer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Thank you, Zbigniew > You have given me the best laugh in a couple of weeks! > (How do you pronounce Zbigniew, anyway?) > Best Regards, > Phil Creer > The Toenail Ridge Shortline > Adelaide, Sth Australia > http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/9452 > (Phil is pronounced "fill") :) > Phil, sorry for the late reply. The trouble with the name Zbigniew is that it is pronounced Zbigniew. How do you explain such a thing? Here's an attempt at an English transliteration, but it falls somewhat short because English just doesn't have this combination of sounds: z-b-i-g-ny-ef The ny is one sound, a bit like 'new' without the w. Just to make things simpler, there is an informal version of my name (like Bill for William, Bob for Robert etc) which is written Zbyszek. However, this is no easier to pronounce. Here's an attempted transliteration: z-b-i-sh-ek. The i is short and a bit like in 'in'. You may chance upon my name in some international news reports because there is an American diplomat called Zbigniew Brzezinski. If you ever hear anything about him on radio or television, this will give you an idea of the pronounciation. If not, you could try to find a local Pole and ask him or her. It's not an unusual name in Poland, but it certainly has some unusual attempts at pronounciation in the rest of the world! Thanks for your interest! Zbigniew.
Re: morrelen and conurbation
> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:43:17 -0700 > From: "VR Bass" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Gosh Vance! I thought I knew a few words. Looking up morrelen did > > not yield any entries. Can you provide a definition or daffynition > > if you are so inclined? > > That was aimed specifically at Zbigniew -- it's a Dutch word that > means "fiddle with" or "muck around with". > Ok Vance, now that you have publically associated me with the Dutch, I simply have to clarify this embarrassing issue and write my bio. Expect it in one of the following emails! > Now you can add some international sophistication to your > trackside conversation. "Hey! Don't morrel with that switch until I > get this hooked up!" Very well said. I must admit that during the past 13 years I spent in Holland I have never come across this word but then I haven't tried much... Your use of the word is perfect though. I wonder how you got hold of it? Do you have Dutch descendants or wife??? According to Van Dale, the ultimate reference on proper Dutch (as if such thing existed;^) morrelen is: to fiddle, to fumble. Examples: Hij zat aan zijn bromfiets te morrelen - he was tinkering/fiddling = (around) with his mopen. Aan deze criteria kan niet gemorreld worden - these criteria cannot be = tampered with. aan een deur morrelen - fiddle at a door. Of course you know what Van Dale is, but to our friends who associate vandals with nordic barbarians or with hooligans demolishing bus stops and telephone boxes, it is a name of the major Dutch dictionary author. They have more of such brilliant verbal associations;^) a reason in itself to get to know a few/learn some Dutch;^);^);^). Zbigniew Amsterdam
Re: Goodall Valve
Many thanks to everyone who enlightened us newbies about the Goodall valve! Thanks especially to Carl for providing the pictures and to Clark for extended description. Seems like a good `temporary' option for me. I need to check with Sulphur unless I get someone in NL who sells it. I don't think I am going to drill the boiler soon although I would prefer filling in from the tender rather than the bottle. The axle pump seems interesting I know it is mounted standard on some Asters. I always wondered whether it wouldn't cause too much drag and jerky running?? Especially at low speeds my Frank doesn't have much power, sometimes it cannot even push itself (it has some kind of a dead spot).. But then I guess Frank is really just a toy compared to full grown engines which most of you run. Thanks again, and Happy steaming! Zbigniew Amsterdam
Re: Bantam
> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 18:55:03 +1030 > From: "Kathy & Phil Creer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Forgive the ignorance of a novice, but what is a Goodall valve? My bantam > arrived 6 days ago, already has had R/C added and a 4-wheel tender to store > the radio gear, also i cast a lead front buffer beam to counteract the > tail-heaviness. It runs like a clock but not for long enough so I'd love to > know of a way to top the boiler whilst under pressure. Being another novice I will second this question. Actually, I have already heard and read about this valve many times but I have never seen it... From what I understood people put it on the steam dome in case of Frank S. What does it look like?? I am not sure I want to have anything sticking out from the steam dome.. On related matter, there seems to be some room for external water supply in the tender of Frank, how difficult is to make an installation which would get it to the boiler under pressure? I have seen the (hand-)pomps listed in catalogues, so the rest should be the water tank and the pipe with some sort of a fitting going into the boiler. Has anyone sorted it out for Frank S? Happy steaming, Zbigniew
Re: what scale is that? (was Welcome ...)
> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:47:57 -0700 > From: "VR Bass" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > And this begs the question: "where do we get all these ridiculous > scales, anyway?" I suppose we can lay it all on the fact that we're > too lazy to lay our own track (to the correctly scaled gauge). So, 1 You got to the very point... > gauge it is, and we do our best with the scales. 1:20 should work > out very nicely as a scale for metric models, while 1:24 and 1:12 (!) > make things very simple using imperial measurements. And we forget that the track does not scale! The ties are different for 45mm which should represent 2ft, 3ft, 1m or standard gauge. This phenomenon is sometimes called `the law of conservation of nuisance' Happy steaming, Zbigniew
Re: what scale is that? (was Welcome ...)
> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:40:22 -0700 > From: "VR Bass" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Zbigniew, good commentary about various scales. The information > you sent brings up a few more thoughts, too: Thanks Vance, As usuall you have some good points to add! > Unfortunately, North American prototypes are almost non-existent in > ANY scale from the commercial makers. Your comment could also > be made about 1:32, unfortunately. But the overal proportions are I would not say this. Aster has made a few and is still releasing new pearls in 1:32. > the correct ones, and thus it must be mentioned. Making a model > to the correct scale is no harder than to any other scale. True but with almost every model to a different scale it is difficult to keep them in one stable. But no big deal. Live stemers don't care too much about scale. And I certainly agree that a good model will be succesful in any scale, whether it is 1:19 or 1:24 or anything else. A brilliant model can even set a scale/gauge on its own. > > 1:22.5 is relatively well represented in live steam > > Again, this scale is devoted almost exclusively to European metre- > gauge prototypes. Why? Because it's the correct scale for metre Yes, this argument is often used but the reality is as far or even father away from this than 3ft is from 1meter. The thing is, that quite often the prototypes taken for 1:22.5 45mm gauge used 600mm 750mm 760mm and several more exotic gauges and not necessarily 1000mm. But of course personally I am glad that all these models are produced to one scale of 1:22.5 and not a multitude of scales reflecting the multitude of gauges... > the US. All those Aster narrow gauge engines are wonderful and in > high demand, but they're all out of production. Yes this is a problem and I don't quite understand whether the market is not really that attractive for narrow gauge Aster or they have too much work with their large volume electric LGB/Aster products.. I mean, wouldn't the live steam world be a better place if we had, say the WSL#12 and the K-28 and the Harz 2-10-2 available in live steam?? Just dreaming, Zbigniew Amsterdam, Holland
Re: what scale is that? (was Welcome ...)
> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:25:58 - > From: "Mike Chaney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Z.R. Struzik wrote:- > > > 1:20.3 is virtually non-existant in live steam > > You mean that Ron Brown, Gordon Watson and I have been wasting our time for > the last few years? 1:20.3 is THE scale for 3' narrow gauge live steam. Perhaps it just means that you need to do more to be notified as large volume producers. Granted, I was aware of the Heisler and the Shays for Catatonk. (By the way did this 24t Shay got out of the pilot model stage yet?) Excuses for forgetting to mention these. As to THE scale of choise I hope we can be entitled to our own preferences. > > See http://www.mikechaney.fsnet.co.uk Mike, thanks for the link. Very nice locos! Happy large scale steaming, Zbigniew Amsterdam, Holland > Mike (still butting in - I promise to introduce myself before long.) > PS I need to find some time to write my bio as well, sorry...
Re: what scale is that? (was Welcome ...)
> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:04:51 -0600 > From: "VR Bass" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > The next thing that's confusing me is this business of What scale are > > modeling anyhow? > > The Roundhouse are nominally 1:19. They were originally > designed to model 2-ft gauge engines on 0 gauge track (32mm > between the rails). Thus, their scale is 16mm/ft, or 1:19. > > 1:20.3 (15mm/ft) is correct for 3-ft narrow gauge (US and > elsewhere) on 1 gauge track (45mm). > > 1:22.5 is correct for meter narrow gauge (European and elsewhere, > but not US) on 1 gauge track. > Sorry for jumping in Vance. I know your have been promoting absolute scale/gauge correctness but let me point out (again) that this does not facilitate interchange of rolling stock as much as one common scale would (say 1:22.5). The argument that the gauge is not always correct for one scale is relatively weak from a narrow gauge point of practice - in real life narrow gauge lines, especially in Europe, would often regauge the rolling stock from one gauge to another. So my scale summary would be slightly different: 1:22.5 is a good choice and so is any other scale 1:19 or 1:20.3 as long as you stay consistent. 1:19 is probably most commonly represented in live steam although many products are generic models. 1:20.3 is virtually non-existant in live steam and still weak as a standard (although Bachman and Accucraft are quickly introducing very good electricaly driven locomotives) 1:22.5 is relatively well represented in live steam and let's hope this range will grow further. Regner produces the whole range of European (mainly German) locos. Beautiful 1:22.5 locomotives are also produced by Aster. In fact only the Mogul is exactly 1:22.5, but there are several in 1:23: which is very close: Climax, Alisan Shay, Baldwin tank. Frank S is `LGB scale' really: 1:22.5 in length, some 1:20 in height. Another 1:22.5 live steam product is Roundhouse SR&RL#24. I don't actually believe this from the dimensions in their folder but I must give Roundhouse the benefit of the doubt. Also the Argyle SR&RL Forney is 1:22.5. > railways, Roundhouse is splendid out of the box. For European > narrow gauge, they're a bit too large, but can be modified fairly Too large or too small? Maybe just right? There is no reason why Roundhouse 1:19 models on 45mm track should not represent European 850mm prototypes. I don't know if this gauge actually existed but why not use it in our gardens? Two very close gauges did exist in Europe: 800mm and 900mm. Happy scale steaming! Zbigniew Amsterdam, Holland
Re: what scale is that? (was Welcome ...)
> > I mean, wouldn't the live steam world be a better place if we had, say > > the WSL#12 and the K-28 and the Harz 2-10-2 available in live steam?? OK, I have to correct myself. Harz 2-10-2 is available from Regner. Zbigniew Amsterdam Holland
