Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Hello Everyone, Thanks to everyone for your input and thoughts. I think Steve probably nailed it. The entire water path has a direct effect. I think I'll take the precaution and go big while the boiler is off. Also, thanks for pointing out that redline sight glass is still available. I'd forgotten all about it. Another question has come up during this process concerning the ends for the sight glass. I have always disliked the sight glass ends that are a fitting with a nut and a piece of silicon tubing compressing against the sight glass. I've never had any problems with them, I just dislike them. (I can be quite opinionated. grin) What I am doing for this project is building sight glass ends very similar (if not a direct copy) to the ones that Larry Herget builds for his locomotives. The end fittings seal with an O-ring against the top edge of the sight glass with truss rods pulling the two ends tight against the glass. Larry reminded me to heat the end of the sight glass tubing to melt it slightly to form a smooth, flat sealing edge. I really like the looks and function of his setup. Does anyone have another design that they would not mind sharing? While on the sight glass subject, does anyone have a light on their sight glass to aid in seeing the water level? I saw it once and thought it was a good idea. Obviously I'm pursuing a sight glass, but I still want an LED setup like Rishon's. I'm under the impression that it's coming. Yippee! Later, Trent Harry Wade wrote: although since the upper passage passes only pass steam or air I doubt if this needs to be messed with. I'd say Steve is hitting on the right question which is, does the effect of capillary action occur primarily in the feed line, equally along the entire tube path, or mostly at or near the surface? My guess is that it occurs equally along entire length of the water path and that to get an improvement in reading accuracy the entire lower passageway needs to be enlarged, along with the glass, or little real improvement will be seen.
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
At 11:11 AM 5/30/01 -0500, you wrote: I think we're talking about very similar designs, if not the same thing. Trent We're talking about exactly the same thing. The difference in the two is that one puts radial compression (through the ring) on the glass, the other puts axial (end) compression on the glass. I don't know which one the glass is better able to withstand, axial loads or radial loads, if there's a difference at all. Of course with the small pressures and forces we're working with I think this is all a great lot of hair splitting. That's one of the good things about Ga1, it's so forgiving that if you take care of a few basic details there's very little that won't work. Cheers, Harry
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Trent, If you make a glass of the OD seal type, it is useful to get metric O-rings because they come in 1mm cross-section, which makes quite a small unit. Peter
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Hello Everyone, I would like to know peoples thoughts and/or experiences about eliminating, or at least reducing, capillary action in a sight glass. Would there be any advantage to having a larger diameter sight glass if the supply (water end) tubing was small (1/8) diameter? What about for the top (steam end) of the glass? My knowledge doesn't give me an answer one way or another. Just guessing, I would expect no real advantage to a larger sight glass if the rest of the system was not up-sized as well. Thanks in advance for your help. Later, Trent
RE: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Trent, Your question re capillary action in a sight glass is a good one. I want to hear from the experts, too. But my guess is that the diameter of the sight glass is the critical dimension, because it is the surface tension of the water at the liquid/gas interface that causes the capillary action. Steve
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Trent et all, I'm no expert but I believe Steve is correct in his analysis. I bet a larger dia sight glass would make a difference- I have less of a problem with my 3/4 locos. A longer sight glass MAY help but usually, by design- and wisely, the bottom of the sight glass should only extend to the safe low point of the boiler water level. which could admit vapor to the tube when the water is lower. Does a blowdown on the glass help if the loco is stopped. I certainly have a problem on most of my 45mm gauge locos except the Merlin Hunslet which utilizes the water tubes going to two plates --no tube as such. OK Harry where are you? Wade into it!! Geoff. Hello Everyone, I would like to know peoples thoughts and/or experiences about eliminating, or at least reducing, capillary action in a sight glass. Would there be any advantage to having a larger diameter sight glass if the supply (water end) tubing was small (1/8) diameter? What about for the top (steam end) of the glass? My knowledge doesn't give me an answer one way or another. Just guessing, I would expect no real advantage to a larger sight glass if the rest of the system was not up-sized as well. Thanks in advance for your help. Later, Trent
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
At 11:48 AM 5/29/01 -0700, you wrote: I'm no expert but I believe Steve is correct in his analysis. OK Harry where are you? Wade into it!! Geoff. Geoff, I do too, although since the upper passage passes only pass steam or air I doubt if this needs to be messed with. I'd say Steve is hitting on the right question which is, does the effect of capillary action occur primarily in the feed line, equally along the entire tube path, or mostly at or near the surface? My guess is that it occurs equally along entire length of the water path and that to get an improvement in reading accuracy the entire lower passageway needs to be enlarged, along with the glass, or little real improvement will be seen. If on the other hand I'm wrong, and we all know what the chances of that are (*), and the majority of the effect of capillary action takes place in the visible area of the glass, then going to a larger glass will affect the most improvement. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Cheers, Harry (*) 50/50
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Harry et al, I have often wondered why manufacturers dont make the tubing and glass of larger dia-is it because of possible glass tube breakage due to the pressure.? Then couldn't thicker walled glass tubing could be used.? Even the 3/4 scale glasses aren't much larger than our little locos. In the case of the 1985 Merlin Hunslet, the glass plate on the water level indicator is thicker and fastened with a number of screws. It reads accurately yet the tubes leading into it are pretty standard. One of Tom Cooper's inventions??--He sure had some!--Like a huge butane tank and and an equally big boiler. All for long running. Not a perfect loco by today's standards but still very accurate to the prototype. No I'm not selling it!! Geoff. . Geoff, I do too, although since the upper passage passes only pass steam or air I doubt if this needs to be messed with. I'd say Steve is hitting on the right question which is, does the effect of capillary action occur primarily in the feed line, equally along the entire tube path, or mostly at or near the surface? My guess is that it occurs equally along entire length of the water path and that to get an improvement in reading accuracy the entire lower passageway needs to be enlarged, along with the glass, or little real improvement will be seen. If on the other hand I'm wrong, and we all know what the chances of that are (*), and the majority of the effect of capillary action takes place in the visible area of the glass, then going to a larger glass will affect the most improvement. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Cheers, Harry (*) 50/50
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
At 04:48 PM 5/29/01 -0700, you wrote: Harry et al, I have often wondered why manufacturers dont make the tubing and glass of larger dia Geoff, They do, in every imaginable size. It's borosilicate glass and it's the same thing that's used for laboratory equipment. Pyrex Red Line is one of the best known and for a while they made it in sizes that could be used by live steamers. They still make gauge glass for all types of full size aplications but I don't know if Red Line tube is still made in small sizes. Cheers, Harry
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
It still is. Sulfur Springs sells it. It does help as does the angled painted plate in back of the glass. You know the barber poll look. Phil.P. Reading,Pa. At 04:48 PM 5/29/01 -0700, you wrote: Harry et al, I have often wondered why manufacturers dont make the tubing and glass of larger dia Geoff, They do, in every imaginable size. It's borosilicate glass and it's the same thing that's used for laboratory equipment. Pyrex Red Line is one of the best known and for a while they made it in sizes that could be used by live steamers. They still make gauge glass for all types of full size aplications but I don't know if Red Line tube is still made in small sizes. Cheers, Harry
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Gentlemen You have caught me on the hop I have a Ruby kit under development, just need more hours in the day. Cheers Paul Trevaskis
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Hello Everyone, Maybe I'm missing something. Wouldn't there have to be a bushing silver brazed into the backhead (or somewhere) on the boiler to use a glow plug as a level sensor? If you were going to do that you might as well just go ahead and put a regular sight glass in. Right? Modifying the boiler is exactly what I'm trying to get around. Like I said, I may be missing exactly what is being said about the glow plug. As for the blinking LED, in my thinking, it should only blink when the water level needs attention. Or should only glow when attention is needed. IMO Now a new twist on the subject. In mold making, we have brass plugs that have a soft rubber sleeve on one end and a socket head screw through the middle. The brass is held in place and the screw tightened therefore expanding the rubber to seal off against the sides of the cooling line in the mold. I don't remember ever dislodging one of the plugs during pressure testing. I have a feeling that it would be quite a rememberable event if one had given way. grin Could something like this be used? I'm thinking, drill a suitable size hole in the boiler, insert one of the brass inserts (modified with a hole for the water to pass) to accept the line for the sight glass and tighten it up in the hole. Sounds like a L O N G shot, but it may spawn another idea. I might have to give it a try on a pressure vessel other than my Ruby's boiler to see if it will withstand 150 PSI or so in thin tubing. Ahh, the ideas are rolling now. grin Later, Trent [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm thinking a cheap glo-plug with the coil snipped and straightened. Then fill in the cavity so that the 'water drop effect' doesn't get you. If placed close to the burner on a Ruby this should also evaporate any water that bridged the gap. Blinking LEDs are not an issue. Radio Shack sells LEDs that already have the flashing circuit built in.
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
At 08:17 PM 5/3/01 -0500, you wrote: Maybe I'm missing something. Wouldn't there have to be a bushing silver brazed into the backhead (or somewhere) on the boiler to use a glow plug as a level sensor? If you were going to do that you might as well just go ahead and put a regular sight glass in. Right? Trent Trent, You aren't missing anything. But maybe what is needed is sideways thinking, as Mike Chaney pointed out. The penetration needed for a working steam fitting and the penetration needed for an electrode are, or CAN be, two completely different things. I could see an electrode being made from a #2-56 screw. That would be roughly a #9 BA. In my opinion a thread this small could be made straight into 1/16 copper sheet without a bushing and be successful. A .078 hole is considerably different than the 3/8 or so hole needed to fit a bushing for a fitting. Regards, Harry Wade Nashville, Tn
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Harry, I'd have never thought of using #2-56 threads without a bushing on the boiler. More food for thought. Later, Trent Harry Wade wrote: I could see an electrode being made from a #2-56 screw. In my opinion a thread this small could be made straight into 1/16 copper sheet without a bushing and be successful.
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
I really like the idea of an electronic water level indicator. My track is ground level, if I could adapt an electronic indicator to my FrankS and Ruby that would turn on when the water reaches a predetermined level then I would not have to stand on my head to look at a site glass or stop every 15 minutes to add water to the boiler. My thought is that if something could be adapted through the pressure relief fitting then an additional hole would not have to be drilled and tapped into the boiler. mp --- Trent Dowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Everyone, Maybe I'm missing something. Wouldn't there have to be a bushing silver brazed into the backhead (or somewhere) on the boiler to use a glow plug as a level sensor? If you were going to do that you might as well just go ahead and put a regular sight glass in. Right? Modifying the boiler is exactly what I'm trying to get around. Like I said, I may be missing exactly what is being said about the glow plug. As for the blinking LED, in my thinking, it should only blink when the water level needs attention. Or should only glow when attention is needed. IMO Now a new twist on the subject. In mold making, we have brass plugs that have a soft rubber sleeve on one end and a socket head screw through the middle. The brass is held in place and the screw tightened therefore expanding the rubber to seal off against the sides of the cooling line in the mold. I don't remember ever dislodging one of the plugs during pressure testing. I have a feeling that it would be quite a rememberable event if one had given way. grin Could something like this be used? I'm thinking, drill a suitable size hole in the boiler, insert one of the brass inserts (modified with a hole for the water to pass) to accept the line for the sight glass and tighten it up in the hole. Sounds like a L O N G shot, but it may spawn another idea. I might have to give it a try on a pressure vessel other than my Ruby's boiler to see if it will withstand 150 PSI or so in thin tubing. Ahh, the ideas are rolling now. grin Later, Trent [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm thinking a cheap glo-plug with the coil snipped and straightened. Then fill in the cavity so that the 'water drop effect' doesn't get you. If placed close to the burner on a Ruby this should also evaporate any water that bridged the gap. Blinking LEDs are not an issue. Radio Shack sells LEDs that already have the flashing circuit built in. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Use a miniature spark (not glow) plug at the desired water level, so that the resistance between the center electrode and the shell electrode would greatly increase once the water level dropped below that level? Probably would want a generous gap between the electrodes to avoid the lingering water drop situation. Charles - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 10:51 PM Subject: Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass? It very well could be that simple. I'm going to have to experiment now. The hardest part will be getting the wire out through the metal turret without leaks. Should be possible with an enamel-coated wire. I'll get back to you... ;] Trot, the thinkerin', fox... On Tue, 1 May 2001, Trent Dowler wrote: Now, my non electronics mind started to work. If a simple electrode (wire?) were to be placed down through the existing steam fitting, insulated from the actual fittings and boiler, and the other contact was the boiler itself, could the water act as the conductor between the two contacts ot trigger a simple electronics circuit to light an LED when the contact was broken (no water conductance between the two contacts)? Will the distilled water conduct enough current to actually be of use? Would it be simpler to light an LED and then it go out when the water level drops to the low level? Sounds too simple. Anyone with ideas out there? Later, Trent /\_/\TrotFox\ Always remember, ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ There is a \./ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative.
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Trent, Your thoughts seem to be right, give it a try and let us know! Terry Griner Columbus Ohio USA [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/01/01 11:24PM Hello Everyone, This is a somewhat old subject, but I'm determined to find a simple solution to putting a sight glass on my Ruby without completely rebuilding the boiler. Another (lurking) lister e-mailed me with a thought that seems very possible. It was suggested that an electronic sight glass like the one found on the new Rishon locomotive be used on the Ruby. I did a small (VERY small) amount of research on the possibilities but I'm no electronics person. I have e-mailed Paul Trevaskis from Rishon about more information about the one that they use on their new engine but haven't heard back from him yet. I saw it at DH and really liked it (engine and electronics circuit). The circuit seemed simple, but I never saw the support parts (PC board, sensors, components, etc.) for it so it may be a real monster of a project. In the most simple terms, when the water level reaches the lowest desired level, an LED lights on the bunker signaling the operator that it's time to top off the boiler. Now, my non electronics mind started to work. If a simple electrode (wire?) were to be placed down through the existing steam fitting, insulated from the actual fittings and boiler, and the other contact was the boiler itself, could the water act as the conductor between the two contacts ot trigger a simple electronics circuit to light an LED when the contact was broken (no water conductance between the two contacts)? Will the distilled water conduct enough current to actually be of use? Would it be simpler to light an LED and then it go out when the water level drops to the low level? Sounds too simple. Anyone with ideas out there? Later, Trent
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
I'm thinking a cheap glo-plug with the coil snipped and straightened.
Then fill in the cavity so that the 'water drop effect' doesn't get you.
If placed close to the burner on a Ruby this should also evaporate any
water that bridged the gap.
Blinking LEDs are not an issue. Radio Shack sells LEDs that already have
the flashing circuit built in. All you have to do is supply power and it
blinks all by itself.
Trot, the fox who needs time to play! {:(
On Tue, 1 May 2001, Trent Dowler wrote:
Trot and Everyone,
Rishon has apparently gone to the LED sight glass on several (if not all) of their
locomotives so it must be working well for them. Their Mason Bogie description
mentions the blinking LED sight glass. Blinking would be nice, but I'd settle for
ON or OFF at this point. If memory serves me well, Rishon places two bushings in
the backhead to accomodate the contacts for the sight glass. Corrections anyone?
/\_/\TrotFox\ Always remember,
( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ There is a
\./ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative.
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Outdated transistors are not a big deal. If the plans can be found I could update the specs to allow for current production devices. I'm sure I can find an SK cross-reference book somewhere without too much difficulty. ;] I'm expecting that they would only be used for switching and if this is the case the specific devices are not crucial. So long as the transistors are the same type (PNP, NPN, FET, MOSFET...) and have similar specs. Trot, the bipolar, fox... }=] On Tue, 1 May 2001, Harry Wade wrote: At 10:24 PM 5/1/01 -0500, you wrote: Trent, It's not new. Either Peter Dupen or Roy Amsbury (both 1st medal winners for locomotives at Model Engineer (London) Exhibitions) described an electronic water level indicator system in Model Engineer magazine 20 or so years ago. If I remember correctly it used insulated backhead sensors, roughly resembling spark plugs, through detector circuit and LEDS. The circuitry was relatively simple. Whatcha' wanna bet Paul's is an adaption of that? :-) I can look up the dates if anyone is interested. The problem might be, as I have runn into before, that the transistors called for in the circuits are now long obsolete and discontiued. Regards, Harry Wade Nashville, Tn /\_/\TrotFox\ Always remember, ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ There is a \./ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative.
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Or just use a three channel radio to turn up the speed on that modified servo-driven water pump in the tender. };] Trot, the hands-off, fox... =] On Wed, 2 May 2001, Charles Brumbelow wrote: If this works, you can put the LED on top of the cab roof or dome, see it at a distance, and run squirt/pump more water in the boiler. Useful if you are using R/C and thus not handling the controls up close. Charles /\_/\TrotFox\ Always remember, ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ There is a \./ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative.
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
What is your thought on using a glow plug by snipping the filement at the body then stretching it out. The lingering water drops could be helped by filling the cavity in the plug with hi-temp epoxy... Trot, the R/C-enabled, fox... On Wed, 2 May 2001, Charles Brumbelow wrote: Use a miniature spark (not glow) plug at the desired water level, so that the resistance between the center electrode and the shell electrode would greatly increase once the water level dropped below that level? Probably would want a generous gap between the electrodes to avoid the lingering water drop situation. Charles /\_/\TrotFox\ Always remember, ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ There is a \./ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative.
RE: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Regarding the sensors for an electronic water level gauge: I have not seen the articles that Harry refers to, but I suspect that simple continuity sensors (using the electrical continuity of water) to close a circuit would not be reliable enough. Two of them might work if set up in a wheatstone bridge or comparator circuit arrangement. The assumption would be that if both sensors were exposed to steam then they would have equivalent circuit resistance. If the lower one were immersed in boiler water, then it would exhibit a different resistance and unbalance the bridge circuit. Some fiddling with circuit values would be required to make it work, and electronic components are not critical and readily available, as Trot says. Optical sensors might be another method to detect boiler water level by using LED's and optical sensors. I am still thinking about this one. Regards, Steve
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Trant asked:- To seal the wire from leaks, could epoxy be used between it and the turret? It has sealing ability and is non conductive. Might have a problem with temperature or shrinkage. I'm not sure. Long shot here, but what about high temp silicone? It stays pliable, is oil and water resistant, and obviously has sealing abilities. Probably couldn't stand up to 40 PSI though without our cutting a shallow groove in the turret nut for it to grip into. thinking out loud Think sideways! It doesn't have to be a piece of wire. Why not use an insulator threaded internally and externally and sealed with PTFE (Teflon) tape - just like all the other fittings which we poke into our boilers? If I had any real interest (and if others hadn't got there before me) I'd invent one. Mike
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
In theory, PURE water will not conduct electricity. It is the impurities that are normally found in water that do. Being that we use distilled water, but put it in a copper vessel, conductivity may not be a constant. It is worth the effort to do an experiment though. That would be the easiest to implement. I'm not sure how a moisture detector works, but another possible way is a simple float switch. While water is in the boiler, the float lifts off the contacts and the circuit is open. When the level drops, so does the float and Voilia! The circuit is completed. However it is done it must be able to handle quite a bit of heat. Trent Dowler wrote: It was suggested that an electronic sight glass like the one found on the new Rishon locomotive be used on the Ruby. SNIP Sounds too simple. Anyone with ideas out there? The best ideas often are!
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
In a message dated 01-05-02 07:50:19 EDT, you write: Will the distilled water conduct enough current to actually be of use? If I recall correctly from many, many years ago in chemestry that distilled water will not conduct electrical current. I may be wrong but there has to be something in the water,(salt, minerals, acid, etc.) for it to conduct elecrticity. Salty
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
I don't know about distilled water but the DI water here at work has a resistance in the 3M range. Distilled water should be a good deal more conductive but you must remember that we do not have to actually use this current carrying capacity to turn on the LED. We only need to sense the current flow to be able to control a switch. A Darlington transistor setup should be able to get us what we need. As soon as I'm able to see what the resistance of a glass of distilled water is I'll be able to tell you more. :] It's all about circuit design! Trot, the electrical, fox... /\_/\TrotFox\ Always remember, ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ There is a \./ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative.
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Hello Everyone, This is a somewhat old subject, but I'm determined to find a simple solution to putting a sight glass on my Ruby without completely rebuilding the boiler. Another (lurking) lister e-mailed me with a thought that seems very possible. It was suggested that an electronic sight glass like the one found on the new Rishon locomotive be used on the Ruby. I did a small (VERY small) amount of research on the possibilities but I'm no electronics person. I have e-mailed Paul Trevaskis from Rishon about more information about the one that they use on their new engine but haven't heard back from him yet. I saw it at DH and really liked it (engine and electronics circuit). The circuit seemed simple, but I never saw the support parts (PC board, sensors, components, etc.) for it so it may be a real monster of a project. In the most simple terms, when the water level reaches the lowest desired level, an LED lights on the bunker signaling the operator that it's time to top off the boiler. Now, my non electronics mind started to work. If a simple electrode (wire?) were to be placed down through the existing steam fitting, insulated from the actual fittings and boiler, and the other contact was the boiler itself, could the water act as the conductor between the two contacts ot trigger a simple electronics circuit to light an LED when the contact was broken (no water conductance between the two contacts)? Will the distilled water conduct enough current to actually be of use? Would it be simpler to light an LED and then it go out when the water level drops to the low level? Sounds too simple. Anyone with ideas out there? Later, Trent
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
It very well could be that simple. I'm going to have to experiment now. The hardest part will be getting the wire out through the metal turret without leaks. Should be possible with an enamel-coated wire. I'll get back to you... ;] Trot, the thinkerin', fox... On Tue, 1 May 2001, Trent Dowler wrote: Now, my non electronics mind started to work. If a simple electrode (wire?) were to be placed down through the existing steam fitting, insulated from the actual fittings and boiler, and the other contact was the boiler itself, could the water act as the conductor between the two contacts ot trigger a simple electronics circuit to light an LED when the contact was broken (no water conductance between the two contacts)? Will the distilled water conduct enough current to actually be of use? Would it be simpler to light an LED and then it go out when the water level drops to the low level? Sounds too simple. Anyone with ideas out there? Later, Trent /\_/\TrotFox\ Always remember, ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ There is a \./ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative.
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Trot and Everyone, Rishon has apparently gone to the LED sight glass on several (if not all) of their locomotives so it must be working well for them. Their Mason Bogie description mentions the blinking LED sight glass. Blinking would be nice, but I'd settle for ON or OFF at this point. If memory serves me well, Rishon places two bushings in the backhead to accomodate the contacts for the sight glass. Corrections anyone? To seal the wire from leaks, could epoxy be used between it and the turret? It has sealing ability and is non conductive. Might have a problem with temperature or shrinkage. I'm not sure. Long shot here, but what about high temp silicone? It stays pliable, is oil and water resistant, and obviously has sealing abilities. Probably couldn't stand up to 40 PSI though without our cutting a shallow groove in the turret nut for it to grip into. thinking out loud The turret nut on my Ruby is either really tight, or has Locktite on it. Either way, it's tight! If I can get it out without destroying it I might can tell more what we have to deal with there. Someone else (Salty?) mentioned that the turret nut hole was extremely small. Looking from the side plug (which wasn't nearly as tight) I can certainly see what they meant. Keep me up to date on what you figure out. If I make any new discoveries I'll do the same. Anyone else out there with any ideas? Later, Trent [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It very well could be that simple. I'm going to have to experiment now. The hardest part will be getting the wire out through the metal turret without leaks. Should be possible with an enamel-coated wire. I'll get back to you... ;]
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
At 10:24 PM 5/1/01 -0500, you wrote: Would it be simpler to light an LED and then it go out when the water level drops to the low level? Sounds too simple. Anyone with ideas out there? Later, Trent Trent, It's not new. Either Peter Dupen or Roy Amsbury (both 1st medal winners for locomotives at Model Engineer (London) Exhibitions) described an electronic water level indicator system in Model Engineer magazine 20 or so years ago. If I remember correctly it used insulated backhead sensors, roughly resembling spark plugs, through detector circuit and LEDS. The circuitry was relatively simple. Whatcha' wanna bet Paul's is an adaption of that? :-) I can look up the dates if anyone is interested. The problem might be, as I have runn into before, that the transistors called for in the circuits are now long obsolete and discontiued. Regards, Harry Wade Nashville, Tn
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Trent, I recall someone putting a sight glass on a Roundhouse boiler by drilling up through the bottom and mounting a banjo fitting with the rear boiler support bolt. The top of the glass was connected at the backhead fill plug. This might be worth considering with the Ruby, since you have a good place to connect the top, and the support post on the bottom of the boiler looks like it might lend itself to being turned into a tube best regards, -Vance- Vance Bass FHPB Railroad Supply Co. 6933 Cherry Hills Loop NE Albuquerque, NM 87111 USA http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass/fhpb/
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
At 09:16 PM 4/11/01 -0500, you wrote: After reading Harry's post, I tend to think that he has hit the nail on the head with his predictions (or perhaps past experience?) Trent, Not by experience, at least in the Failed Experiment sense. The installation parameters for water gauges were learned early-on and it never occurred to me to question or circumvent those, although there are always several ways to skin a cat. The gauge must, by the most direct means tolerable, form a continuous connection between an entry point beneath the surface of the water with an entry point within the steam space. If you can find a way to do that you have it made. What will happen in this loop arrangement is a matter of thermodynamics, with a little physics thrown in. The loop will fill with water because as steam replaces air in the boiler system and enters the atmosphere of the tube it will condense (we assume the tube is less warm than the surfaces of the boiler) and since the accumulating slug of water is held captive and can't be moved up or out by inbalance in steam or atmospheric pressures, it will remain in the tube as condensate. As the accumulated water rises in the glass, it will not except by the purest coincidence reflect the level of water in the boiler. Also, water gauges with very small tubes, like ours, are quite erratic due to the influence of capillary action on the height of the water in the glass. A small tube will tend to draw fluid in thus tending to give a level reading that is higher that the actual fluid level in the vessel being gauged. But it's not unheard-of for a thin glass to resist fluid also, giving a lower than actual reading. A gauge installation solution that involves a longish run of thin tube to get to the water or the steam space is likely to suffer more than usual from capillary problems. Cheers, Harry
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Trent, The only thing I saw that is close to the idea of a sight glass on a Ruby is a set of articles in "Steam in the Garden" about additions to BAGRS loco. There was a description/ plan for installing a sight glass on the vertical boiler, could this be what you are thinking of? Terry Griner Columbus Ohio USA [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/11/01 10:16PM I wish I could remember more about the sight glass setup, or at least where I saw it. I have so many old magazines it could have been from 20 years ago. After reading Harry's post, I tend to think that he has hit the nail on the head with his predictions (or perhaps past experience?) with the glass filling with condensate and giving a false reading. At the same time I think that there surely has to be a simple solution. But what is it? I have a pressure gauge on my Ruby but have not figured out as of yet how to help predict water level with the reading. Maybe I'm not supposed to be able to. Input anyone? Later, Trent Harry Wade wrote: Such a loop would eventually fill with condensate and show full all the time. If the gauge had a lower blowdown valve and you purged the gauge, it would show completely empty (steam only) until it filled with condensate again.
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
If you remember where you saw it, I'd be interested in seeing it (or a picture at least). Unless I'm missing something, it seems to me a tube coming out of the turret down to the bottom of the boiler and back up to the turret would not show current water level, but act more like a 'P' trap in a sink. There would be nothing to put water into it nor any impetus for the water to leave it. There has to be a difference in elevation of the ends for it to work. (Perhaps if you turned the engine on its side, this arrangement would work.) Trent Dowler wrote: Didn't I see a write up in a magazine a while back about a sight glass that didn't require modifications to the Ruby boiler? I have it in my head that it used a tube going into the boiler from the top existing plug on the boiler for the regulator, extending to near the bottom and was vented from the other end of the sight glass back to one of the fittings on the steam regulator.
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
At 08:34 AM 4/11/01 -0500, you wrote: Unless I'm missing something, it seems to me a tube coming out of the turret down to the bottom of the boiler and back up to the turret would not show current water level, but act more like a 'P' trap in a sink. Chris, No, you aren't mising anything. Such a loop would eventually fill with condensate and show full all the time. If the gauge had a lower blowdown valve and you purged the gauge, it would show completely empty (steam only) until it filled with condensate again. Cheers, Harry
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Perhaps it would be possible to run two tubes, one longer than the other. That may give you the two "take off" points you need for a glass. Personally, I think it may be easier to just put in a "monocock" arrangement, where you have a valve on a line that begins just above the flue. If you open this valve and get steam, you need to put water in. Otherwise, you're good. Most steam locomotives had this kind of arrangement, except they had three different valves set at varying heights. (a tri-cock) This was a backup to the water glass. I've thought about doing something like that for my Ruby bash, but haven't gotten around to it. (as with a lot of things.) Later, K
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Has anyone ever taken the top nut off the turret? If that goes thru into the boiler, I have had my Ruby almost totally disassembled. I doubt if there is enough space for a small tube, unless it was a very small tube, to go through the nut and into the boiler without restricting the steam flow through the block to the lubricator and cylinders. I'm not saying it cannot be done but I would get ahold of another nut before I started to attempt to install a tube through one. Salty
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
I wish I could remember more about the sight glass setup, or at least where I saw it. I have so many old magazines it could have been from 20 years ago. After reading Harry's post, I tend to think that he has hit the nail on the head with his predictions (or perhaps past experience?) with the glass filling with condensate and giving a false reading. At the same time I think that there surely has to be a simple solution. But what is it? I have a pressure gauge on my Ruby but have not figured out as of yet how to help predict water level with the reading. Maybe I'm not supposed to be able to. Input anyone? Later, Trent Harry Wade wrote: Such a loop would eventually fill with condensate and show full all the time. If the gauge had a lower blowdown valve and you purged the gauge, it would show completely empty (steam only) until it filled with condensate again.
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
At 11:33 AM 4/9/01 -0500, you wrote: So, does anyone have any thoughts on adding a sight glass to the Ruby? and tapped directly into the backhead or is a brass fitting required? (Brazing in a brass fitting there would be a bit of a chore. . . ) How does one attach a glass anyway? Two connections linked by a solid object makes screwing them in impractical. Chris, Actually a water gauge isn't typically a solid object. The glass is usually seperate, ie "loose", from the upper and lower gauge fittings, and is installed between the two in a "gland" arrangement using compressible packing. In miniature gauges the glands are most often two compression nuts with rubber sealing rings. Thus the two end fittings of the glass can be screwed into boiler mounting bushings and aligned, and the sight glass tube, with the compression nuts, is slipped into the assembly and tightened. When retrofitting an existing boiler there are two dangers for the unaware; first, disturbing an existing silver solder seam, and burning up the fine threads in existing boiler penetrations. For more on this subject pick up the next issue of Small Scale Steam Hobbyist where I will have an article which covers the subject of boiler retrofitting in sickening detail. Also, when thinking of the material for boiler fittings and attachments, particularly of bushings, bronze should be the material of choice rather than brass. Regards, Harry Wade Nashville, Tn
Re: Ruby - How about a sight glass?
Hello, Call me crazy if you want to (some of you have already done that) but didn't I see a write up in a magazine a while back about a sight glass that didn't require modifications to the Ruby boiler? I can't find the article (or maybe it was a web page) but I have it in my head that it used a tube going into the boiler from the top existing plug on the boiler for the regulator, extending to near the bottom and was vented from the other end of the sight glass back to one of the fittings on the steam regulator. I may have this so terribly twisted around that it's impossible to figure out. Sounds plausible to me though. Any thoughts? Later, Trent
