RE: Hello, all.

[Daniel Honig]

Christian,
  Glad to know your hear lurking!

  I think that was my original point when bringing up Barracuda.

  Struts can learn alot from Barracuda going forward.  Each
  certainly has its' place of superiority but due to the focus
  of Barracuda being architecture which I've always thought
  it demonstratedThe intellectual mind share between
  the two projects can only be helpful for both!

-Daniel

-Original Message-
From: Christian Cryder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 9:26 PM
To: Struts Developers List
Subject: RE: Hello, all.


Hi guys,

Normally I just lurk here, but I did want to comment on a stmt pertaining to
Barraucda.

> >Barracuda is an impressive framework. It also has quite a
> >powerful event model which struts lacks. The rendering seems
> >tied to XMLC however.

Barracuda, as its currently implemented _is_ tied to XMLC in two specific
places: it uses XMLC to load the DOMs, and it uses XMLC to actually render
the processed DOMs. But that's it - everything else is specific to the DOM
api; we designed it that way intentionally. So decoupling from XMLC is
fairly straightforward - you provide something to load the DOM, and you
provide a renderer to actually stream the processed DOM back to the client.
That's it. Now, we don't have another loader/renderer currently in the
project, but that is on the todo list (Q1 2003 hopefully).

> >it must be said from this experience that struts certainly
> >doesnt tie you down to a particular view technology. :-)

Just to be clear, Barracuda doesn't tie you to a particular rendering
technology either; it is possible to use just the event model and to skip
the component stuff altogether. Heck, you could actually probably use
Barracuda as your controller and JSPs to render if you really wanted to.
What Barracuda _doesn't_ try to do is make it any easier to JSP related
stuff...if you need to use JSPs, then there are plenty of frameworks out
there to consider (and Struts is certainly among the best I've seen).

> Struts is exciting because it has such momentum.  Barracuda is
> exciting because it is the most complete MVC framework I've seen.

I think this is a fair assessment (of course I'm biased ;-) Struts does have
momentum, but the question is "why"? After all, MS's .NET stuff has momentum
too...

My point here is simply that momentum does not _necessarily/automatically_
mean something is good; coporate interests on both sides of the isle
regularly try their hardest to generate momentum as a means to achieving
developer adoption. This is particularly true of MS, but Sun does it
too...there are many reasons that they have hitched their horses to the JSP
wagon, but one of the major ones has to do with positioning against MS's ASP
(not the architectural pro's/con's of JSP over and against other
alternatives).

Now, please note that I'm _not_ suggesting that all of Struts momentum has
been manufactured; if you're stuck with JSP, then Struts is a lifesaver. The
great thing about a project like Struts (and other open-source efforts) is
that most of the growth comes from the community, rather than the industry;
its driven from the grassroots.

What I _am_ saying however, is that Barracuda was not created for the
purpose of generating momentum (well, maybe that's what Lutris wanted). The
primary focus of the developers involved, however, was to step back and say
"let's try really rethinking this whole problem space and see if we can come
up with a way to really do it right". And so we evaluated all the other
approaches we could find, and tried to learn from them, and tried to apply
lessons learned from client-server development in a stated environment. But
the emphasis was on architecture, not momentum.

I've always felt that if Barracuda could get the architecture right, then it
would make it much easier to build the type of RAD tool integration that
made client server development so much easier, and that in turn would take
care of any momentum issues. What actually amazes me is the measure of
adoption Barracuda has already achieved, given the fact that we've still
been focusing on architecture rather than ease of use.

At any rate, I've digressed. Sorry to take up Struts bandwidth talking about
Barracuda, but I think that both projects have good ideas and figure a
little intellectual cross-pollination never hurt anyone.

Cheers!
Christian
--
Christian Cryder [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Internet Architect, ATMReports.com
Barracuda - http://barracuda.enhydra.org
--
"Coffee? I could quit anytime, just not today"


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RE: Hello, all.

[Christian Cryder]

Hi guys,

Normally I just lurk here, but I did want to comment on a stmt pertaining to
Barraucda.

> >Barracuda is an impressive framework. It also has quite a
> >powerful event model which struts lacks. The rendering seems
> >tied to XMLC however.

Barracuda, as its currently implemented _is_ tied to XMLC in two specific
places: it uses XMLC to load the DOMs, and it uses XMLC to actually render
the processed DOMs. But that's it - everything else is specific to the DOM
api; we designed it that way intentionally. So decoupling from XMLC is
fairly straightforward - you provide something to load the DOM, and you
provide a renderer to actually stream the processed DOM back to the client.
That's it. Now, we don't have another loader/renderer currently in the
project, but that is on the todo list (Q1 2003 hopefully).

> >it must be said from this experience that struts certainly
> >doesnt tie you down to a particular view technology. :-)

Just to be clear, Barracuda doesn't tie you to a particular rendering
technology either; it is possible to use just the event model and to skip
the component stuff altogether. Heck, you could actually probably use
Barracuda as your controller and JSPs to render if you really wanted to.
What Barracuda _doesn't_ try to do is make it any easier to JSP related
stuff...if you need to use JSPs, then there are plenty of frameworks out
there to consider (and Struts is certainly among the best I've seen).

> Struts is exciting because it has such momentum.  Barracuda is
> exciting because it is the most complete MVC framework I've seen.

I think this is a fair assessment (of course I'm biased ;-) Struts does have
momentum, but the question is "why"? After all, MS's .NET stuff has momentum
too...

My point here is simply that momentum does not _necessarily/automatically_
mean something is good; coporate interests on both sides of the isle
regularly try their hardest to generate momentum as a means to achieving
developer adoption. This is particularly true of MS, but Sun does it
too...there are many reasons that they have hitched their horses to the JSP
wagon, but one of the major ones has to do with positioning against MS's ASP
(not the architectural pro's/con's of JSP over and against other
alternatives).

Now, please note that I'm _not_ suggesting that all of Struts momentum has
been manufactured; if you're stuck with JSP, then Struts is a lifesaver. The
great thing about a project like Struts (and other open-source efforts) is
that most of the growth comes from the community, rather than the industry;
its driven from the grassroots.

What I _am_ saying however, is that Barracuda was not created for the
purpose of generating momentum (well, maybe that's what Lutris wanted). The
primary focus of the developers involved, however, was to step back and say
"let's try really rethinking this whole problem space and see if we can come
up with a way to really do it right". And so we evaluated all the other
approaches we could find, and tried to learn from them, and tried to apply
lessons learned from client-server development in a stated environment. But
the emphasis was on architecture, not momentum.

I've always felt that if Barracuda could get the architecture right, then it
would make it much easier to build the type of RAD tool integration that
made client server development so much easier, and that in turn would take
care of any momentum issues. What actually amazes me is the measure of
adoption Barracuda has already achieved, given the fact that we've still
been focusing on architecture rather than ease of use.

At any rate, I've digressed. Sorry to take up Struts bandwidth talking about
Barracuda, but I think that both projects have good ideas and figure a
little intellectual cross-pollination never hurt anyone.

Cheers!
Christian
--
Christian Cryder [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Internet Architect, ATMReports.com
Barracuda - http://barracuda.enhydra.org
--
"Coffee? I could quit anytime, just not today"


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

RE: Hello, all.

[Daniel Honig]

Yep

Glad everyone agrees.

Personally I think Christian Cryder did a very impressive job.
However design and elegance often aren't what matters at the end of the day.

I'll contradict that with saying elegance always pays off!

But who has written a book about Barracuda?...

There are a few companies in the city that have
evolved there one frameworks that are similar to Barracuda.

I have used the good design from Barracuda to evalute the appropriateness
of some of these approaches.

Struts is exciting because it has such momentum.  Barracuda is exciting
because it is the most complete MVC framework I've seen.

It is far beyond velocity, webwork and others that have been mentioned
within this forum.  I fully believe in time we'll have much of
what is missing within struts.  Let's keep being pragmatic
and not over complicate the ease of use that got us excited
in the first place and gradually evolve struts to scale
to the most challenging environments that may need
such things as action chains, component models and event models.

-Daniel

-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 9:43 PM
To: Struts Developers List
Subject: RE: Hello, all.


Yep.
Same decision I made. Im glad I went with struts.
:-)

-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 10:34
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Hello, all.




>From: "Andrew Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Struts Developers List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: Hello, all.
>Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:17:26 +0800
>
>Barracuda is an impressive framework. It also has quite a powerful event
>model which struts lacks.
>The rendering seems tied to XMLC however. Ive not used Barracuda myself so
>dont know how hard it would be to make it play with a different view
>technology. That said, using a DOM approach for rendering has substantial
>advantages. As it happens Im also using a non jsp DOM based rendering
>approach (not xmlc though) for the view in my struts app - and it must be
>said from this experience that struts certainly doesnt tie you down to a
>particular view technology. :-)
>
>
>Interesting to note that many of the things that struts lacks compared to
>frameworks such as Barracuda are addressed in the JSF spec - events,
>component models, etc...
>Im very much looking forward to Struts for JSF...
>

This is a direct result of Struts not trying to be everything to everyone.
The main Struts functionality (action controller) is unlikely to become a
standard as far as i can tell.  So, Struts fits nicely into a comprehensive
web framework composed of various standards and your own code.  I'd much
rather develop apps that use standards and appropriate toolkits like Struts
than with something like Barracuda.


>
>-Original Message-----
>From: Daniel Honig [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 04:59
>To: Struts Developers List
>Subject: RE: Hello, all.
>
>
>In order to stick my head out so it can be cut off...
>
>
>Well I think that Struts rocks first off...
>
>But when you compare it to a framework like:
>http://barracuda.enhydra.org/
>http://barracuda.enhydra.org/cvs_source/Barracuda/docs/what_the_heck_is_bar
r
>acuda.html
>
>
>It seems clear to me that struts is not as elegant.
>
>Struts does not as clearly seperate M-V-C.
>
>Struts lacks a component model that Barracuda cleanly identifies.
>
>
>And I think this is fine.  I wouldn't want to introduce Barracuda to alot
>of
>developer's
>because it is more complex.   Struts is a simple way of achieving the same
>goal
>and pragmatism is one of the values I prize most in this profession.
>
>-Daniel
>
>-Original Message-
>From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 11:58 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: Hello, all.
>
>
>You'll want to join the struts-user list to learn more about Struts and get
>help with any questions you might have.  The struts-dev list is used by
>developers to discuss bugs, enhancements, and general topics concerning the
>framework's development.
>
>David
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Joseph Ottinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: "Struts Developers List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: Struts Developers List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: Hello, all.
> >Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:45:14 -0500 (EST)
> >
> >Then enlighten me? I wouldn't have joined the list at all if I hadn't
>been
> >interested in learning more. Dave had a substantive point, one I
>responded
>

RE: Hello, all.

[Andrew Hill]

Yep.
Same decision I made. Im glad I went with struts.
:-)

-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 10:34
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Hello, all.




>From: "Andrew Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Struts Developers List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: Hello, all.
>Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:17:26 +0800
>
>Barracuda is an impressive framework. It also has quite a powerful event
>model which struts lacks.
>The rendering seems tied to XMLC however. Ive not used Barracuda myself so
>dont know how hard it would be to make it play with a different view
>technology. That said, using a DOM approach for rendering has substantial
>advantages. As it happens Im also using a non jsp DOM based rendering
>approach (not xmlc though) for the view in my struts app - and it must be
>said from this experience that struts certainly doesnt tie you down to a
>particular view technology. :-)
>
>
>Interesting to note that many of the things that struts lacks compared to
>frameworks such as Barracuda are addressed in the JSF spec - events,
>component models, etc...
>Im very much looking forward to Struts for JSF...
>

This is a direct result of Struts not trying to be everything to everyone.
The main Struts functionality (action controller) is unlikely to become a
standard as far as i can tell.  So, Struts fits nicely into a comprehensive
web framework composed of various standards and your own code.  I'd much
rather develop apps that use standards and appropriate toolkits like Struts
than with something like Barracuda.


>
>-Original Message-
>From: Daniel Honig [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 04:59
>To: Struts Developers List
>Subject: RE: Hello, all.
>
>
>In order to stick my head out so it can be cut off...
>
>
>Well I think that Struts rocks first off...
>
>But when you compare it to a framework like:
>http://barracuda.enhydra.org/
>http://barracuda.enhydra.org/cvs_source/Barracuda/docs/what_the_heck_is_bar
r
>acuda.html
>
>
>It seems clear to me that struts is not as elegant.
>
>Struts does not as clearly seperate M-V-C.
>
>Struts lacks a component model that Barracuda cleanly identifies.
>
>
>And I think this is fine.  I wouldn't want to introduce Barracuda to alot
>of
>developer's
>because it is more complex.   Struts is a simple way of achieving the same
>goal
>and pragmatism is one of the values I prize most in this profession.
>
>-Daniel
>
>-Original Message-
>From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 11:58 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: Hello, all.
>
>
>You'll want to join the struts-user list to learn more about Struts and get
>help with any questions you might have.  The struts-dev list is used by
>developers to discuss bugs, enhancements, and general topics concerning the
>framework's development.
>
>David
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Joseph Ottinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: "Struts Developers List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: Struts Developers List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: Hello, all.
> >Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:45:14 -0500 (EST)
> >
> >Then enlighten me? I wouldn't have joined the list at all if I hadn't
>been
> >interested in learning more. Dave had a substantive point, one I
>responded
> >to. Where I erred once, I'm sure I can err again; I'm trying to prevent
> >that if I can.
> >
> >On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, micael wrote:
> >
> > > Joseph, you are making a fool out of yourself.  You seem to have no
>idea
> > > how little you know.
> > >
> > > At 11:08 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, David Graham wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Joseph,
> > > > > I noticed you quoted me on your site but you left out the
>important
> >point
> > > > > that Struts has never and will never dictate a model or view layer
> > > > > technology.  Struts gives you total freedom because at its core
>it's
> >simply
> > > > > an action controller.  The taglibs will be replaced by standards
> >like JSTL
> > > > > and JSF.
> > > >
> > > >Actually, I did note those things, while my definition of a "model"
> > > >differs slightly from yours. I made a point out of mentioning in my
> > > >introductory email here that I retracted one of my criticisms,
>center

RE: Hello, all.

[David Graham]

From: "Andrew Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Developers List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Hello, all.
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:17:26 +0800

Barracuda is an impressive framework. It also has quite a powerful event
model which struts lacks.
The rendering seems tied to XMLC however. Ive not used Barracuda myself so
dont know how hard it would be to make it play with a different view
technology. That said, using a DOM approach for rendering has substantial
advantages. As it happens Im also using a non jsp DOM based rendering
approach (not xmlc though) for the view in my struts app - and it must be
said from this experience that struts certainly doesnt tie you down to a
particular view technology. :-)


Interesting to note that many of the things that struts lacks compared to
frameworks such as Barracuda are addressed in the JSF spec - events,
component models, etc...
Im very much looking forward to Struts for JSF...



This is a direct result of Struts not trying to be everything to everyone.  
The main Struts functionality (action controller) is unlikely to become a 
standard as far as i can tell.  So, Struts fits nicely into a comprehensive 
web framework composed of various standards and your own code.  I'd much 
rather develop apps that use standards and appropriate toolkits like Struts 
than with something like Barracuda.



-Original Message-
From: Daniel Honig [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 04:59
To: Struts Developers List
Subject: RE: Hello, all.


In order to stick my head out so it can be cut off...


Well I think that Struts rocks first off...

But when you compare it to a framework like:
http://barracuda.enhydra.org/
http://barracuda.enhydra.org/cvs_source/Barracuda/docs/what_the_heck_is_barr
acuda.html


It seems clear to me that struts is not as elegant.

Struts does not as clearly seperate M-V-C.

Struts lacks a component model that Barracuda cleanly identifies.


And I think this is fine.  I wouldn't want to introduce Barracuda to alot 
of
developer's
because it is more complex.   Struts is a simple way of achieving the same
goal
and pragmatism is one of the values I prize most in this profession.

-Daniel

-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 11:58 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Hello, all.


You'll want to join the struts-user list to learn more about Struts and get
help with any questions you might have.  The struts-dev list is used by
developers to discuss bugs, enhancements, and general topics concerning the
framework's development.

David






>From: Joseph Ottinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: "Struts Developers List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: Struts Developers List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: Hello, all.
>Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:45:14 -0500 (EST)
>
>Then enlighten me? I wouldn't have joined the list at all if I hadn't 
been
>interested in learning more. Dave had a substantive point, one I 
responded
>to. Where I erred once, I'm sure I can err again; I'm trying to prevent
>that if I can.
>
>On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, micael wrote:
>
> > Joseph, you are making a fool out of yourself.  You seem to have no 
idea
> > how little you know.
> >
> > At 11:08 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, David Graham wrote:
> > >
> > > > Joseph,
> > > > I noticed you quoted me on your site but you left out the 
important
>point
> > > > that Struts has never and will never dictate a model or view layer
> > > > technology.  Struts gives you total freedom because at its core 
it's
>simply
> > > > an action controller.  The taglibs will be replaced by standards
>like JSTL
> > > > and JSF.
> > >
> > >Actually, I did note those things, while my definition of a "model"
> > >differs slightly from yours. I made a point out of mentioning in my
> > >introductory email here that I retracted one of my criticisms, 
centered
> > >around your point.
> > >
> > > > I had never heard of your site before someone posted it on this 
list
>and I
> > > > don't intend to visit it often.  Struts does not need a defense on
>your
> > > > site.  *You* need to actually build a meaningful app using Struts
>and then
> > > > make a judgement.  The only "defense" of Struts I'll offer is 
this:
> > > > Thousands of successful web applications have been produced 
quickly
>and
> > > > cheaply using Struts.  Struts is the most popular Java web MVC
> > > framework for
> > > > a reason.  I suggest you fin

RE: Hello, all.

[Andrew Hill]

Barracuda is an impressive framework. It also has quite a powerful event
model which struts lacks.
The rendering seems tied to XMLC however. Ive not used Barracuda myself so
dont know how hard it would be to make it play with a different view
technology. That said, using a DOM approach for rendering has substantial
advantages. As it happens Im also using a non jsp DOM based rendering
approach (not xmlc though) for the view in my struts app - and it must be
said from this experience that struts certainly doesnt tie you down to a
particular view technology. :-)


Interesting to note that many of the things that struts lacks compared to
frameworks such as Barracuda are addressed in the JSF spec - events,
component models, etc...
Im very much looking forward to Struts for JSF...


-Original Message-
From: Daniel Honig [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 04:59
To: Struts Developers List
Subject: RE: Hello, all.


In order to stick my head out so it can be cut off...


Well I think that Struts rocks first off...

But when you compare it to a framework like:
http://barracuda.enhydra.org/
http://barracuda.enhydra.org/cvs_source/Barracuda/docs/what_the_heck_is_barr
acuda.html


It seems clear to me that struts is not as elegant.

Struts does not as clearly seperate M-V-C.

Struts lacks a component model that Barracuda cleanly identifies.


And I think this is fine.  I wouldn't want to introduce Barracuda to alot of
developer's
because it is more complex.   Struts is a simple way of achieving the same
goal
and pragmatism is one of the values I prize most in this profession.

-Daniel

-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 11:58 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Hello, all.


You'll want to join the struts-user list to learn more about Struts and get
help with any questions you might have.  The struts-dev list is used by
developers to discuss bugs, enhancements, and general topics concerning the
framework's development.

David






>From: Joseph Ottinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: "Struts Developers List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: Struts Developers List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: Hello, all.
>Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:45:14 -0500 (EST)
>
>Then enlighten me? I wouldn't have joined the list at all if I hadn't been
>interested in learning more. Dave had a substantive point, one I responded
>to. Where I erred once, I'm sure I can err again; I'm trying to prevent
>that if I can.
>
>On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, micael wrote:
>
> > Joseph, you are making a fool out of yourself.  You seem to have no idea
> > how little you know.
> >
> > At 11:08 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, David Graham wrote:
> > >
> > > > Joseph,
> > > > I noticed you quoted me on your site but you left out the important
>point
> > > > that Struts has never and will never dictate a model or view layer
> > > > technology.  Struts gives you total freedom because at its core it's
>simply
> > > > an action controller.  The taglibs will be replaced by standards
>like JSTL
> > > > and JSF.
> > >
> > >Actually, I did note those things, while my definition of a "model"
> > >differs slightly from yours. I made a point out of mentioning in my
> > >introductory email here that I retracted one of my criticisms, centered
> > >around your point.
> > >
> > > > I had never heard of your site before someone posted it on this list
>and I
> > > > don't intend to visit it often.  Struts does not need a defense on
>your
> > > > site.  *You* need to actually build a meaningful app using Struts
>and then
> > > > make a judgement.  The only "defense" of Struts I'll offer is this:
> > > > Thousands of successful web applications have been produced quickly
>and
> > > > cheaply using Struts.  Struts is the most popular Java web MVC
> > > framework for
> > > > a reason.  I suggest you find out why.
> > >
> > >Lots of points here!
> > >
> > >For one thing, it's okay - my site has no banners, no sponsors begging
>for
> > >extra traffic. Whether you visit often or not, well, hey - that's up to
> > >you. As far as using struts: I've deployed struts apps, "meaningful"
>ones.
> > >I've found other frameworks to be more appropriate for more situations.
> > >"Most popular" is fairly well beyond doubt, and I've never claimed
> > >otherwise (nor would I)... but then again, Windows is the "most
>popular&

RE: Hello, all.

[Daniel Honig]

In order to stick my head out so it can be cut off...


Well I think that Struts rocks first off...

But when you compare it to a framework like:
http://barracuda.enhydra.org/
http://barracuda.enhydra.org/cvs_source/Barracuda/docs/what_the_heck_is_barr
acuda.html


It seems clear to me that struts is not as elegant.

Struts does not as clearly seperate M-V-C.

Struts lacks a component model that Barracuda cleanly identifies.


And I think this is fine.  I wouldn't want to introduce Barracuda to alot of
developer's
because it is more complex.   Struts is a simple way of achieving the same
goal
and pragmatism is one of the values I prize most in this profession.

-Daniel

-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 11:58 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Hello, all.


You'll want to join the struts-user list to learn more about Struts and get
help with any questions you might have.  The struts-dev list is used by
developers to discuss bugs, enhancements, and general topics concerning the
framework's development.

David






>From: Joseph Ottinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: "Struts Developers List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: Struts Developers List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: Hello, all.
>Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:45:14 -0500 (EST)
>
>Then enlighten me? I wouldn't have joined the list at all if I hadn't been
>interested in learning more. Dave had a substantive point, one I responded
>to. Where I erred once, I'm sure I can err again; I'm trying to prevent
>that if I can.
>
>On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, micael wrote:
>
> > Joseph, you are making a fool out of yourself.  You seem to have no idea
> > how little you know.
> >
> > At 11:08 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, David Graham wrote:
> > >
> > > > Joseph,
> > > > I noticed you quoted me on your site but you left out the important
>point
> > > > that Struts has never and will never dictate a model or view layer
> > > > technology.  Struts gives you total freedom because at its core it's
>simply
> > > > an action controller.  The taglibs will be replaced by standards
>like JSTL
> > > > and JSF.
> > >
> > >Actually, I did note those things, while my definition of a "model"
> > >differs slightly from yours. I made a point out of mentioning in my
> > >introductory email here that I retracted one of my criticisms, centered
> > >around your point.
> > >
> > > > I had never heard of your site before someone posted it on this list
>and I
> > > > don't intend to visit it often.  Struts does not need a defense on
>your
> > > > site.  *You* need to actually build a meaningful app using Struts
>and then
> > > > make a judgement.  The only "defense" of Struts I'll offer is this:
> > > > Thousands of successful web applications have been produced quickly
>and
> > > > cheaply using Struts.  Struts is the most popular Java web MVC
> > > framework for
> > > > a reason.  I suggest you find out why.
> > >
> > >Lots of points here!
> > >
> > >For one thing, it's okay - my site has no banners, no sponsors begging
>for
> > >extra traffic. Whether you visit often or not, well, hey - that's up to
> > >you. As far as using struts: I've deployed struts apps, "meaningful"
>ones.
> > >I've found other frameworks to be more appropriate for more situations.
> > >"Most popular" is fairly well beyond doubt, and I've never claimed
> > >otherwise (nor would I)... but then again, Windows is the "most
>popular"
> > >OS, and that doesn't mean it's the best solution.
> > >
> > > > I frankly don't care if some people don't like Struts; that's a
>matter of
> > > > personal preference.  I do care when it is misrepresented with
>ignorant
> > > > statements.
> > >
> > >Indeed! I agree with this; as I've stated, my goal was to explain a
> > >viewpoint that was asked about. I joined this list so that I could
> > >determine what actually *IS* incorrect and fix that.
> > >
>
>-
>Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>http://enigmastation.comIT Consultant
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail:
><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: Hello, all.

[micael]

Well, starting off with a flame of the very subject of the entire list is 
not the best way to become a "learner" in my opinion.  So, I must apologize 
for thinking that you already thought your guesses were true about 
struts.  They are not.  Since you are here to learn, I will let you go and 
wish you luck.

At 11:45 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
Then enlighten me? I wouldn't have joined the list at all if I hadn't been
interested in learning more. Dave had a substantive point, one I responded
to. Where I erred once, I'm sure I can err again; I'm trying to prevent
that if I can.

On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, micael wrote:

> Joseph, you are making a fool out of yourself.  You seem to have no idea
> how little you know.
>
> At 11:08 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, David Graham wrote:
> >
> > > Joseph,
> > > I noticed you quoted me on your site but you left out the important 
point
> > > that Struts has never and will never dictate a model or view layer
> > > technology.  Struts gives you total freedom because at its core 
it's simply
> > > an action controller.  The taglibs will be replaced by standards 
like JSTL
> > > and JSF.
> >
> >Actually, I did note those things, while my definition of a "model"
> >differs slightly from yours. I made a point out of mentioning in my
> >introductory email here that I retracted one of my criticisms, centered
> >around your point.
> >
> > > I had never heard of your site before someone posted it on this 
list and I
> > > don't intend to visit it often.  Struts does not need a defense on your
> > > site.  *You* need to actually build a meaningful app using Struts 
and then
> > > make a judgement.  The only "defense" of Struts I'll offer is this:
> > > Thousands of successful web applications have been produced quickly and
> > > cheaply using Struts.  Struts is the most popular Java web MVC
> > framework for
> > > a reason.  I suggest you find out why.
> >
> >Lots of points here!
> >
> >For one thing, it's okay - my site has no banners, no sponsors begging for
> >extra traffic. Whether you visit often or not, well, hey - that's up to
> >you. As far as using struts: I've deployed struts apps, "meaningful" ones.
> >I've found other frameworks to be more appropriate for more situations.
> >"Most popular" is fairly well beyond doubt, and I've never claimed
> >otherwise (nor would I)... but then again, Windows is the "most popular"
> >OS, and that doesn't mean it's the best solution.
> >
> > > I frankly don't care if some people don't like Struts; that's a 
matter of
> > > personal preference.  I do care when it is misrepresented with ignorant
> > > statements.
> >
> >Indeed! I agree with this; as I've stated, my goal was to explain a
> >viewpoint that was asked about. I joined this list so that I could
> >determine what actually *IS* incorrect and fix that.
> >

-
Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://enigmastation.comIT Consultant

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Micael

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Re: Hello, all.

[David Graham]

You'll want to join the struts-user list to learn more about Struts and get 
help with any questions you might have.  The struts-dev list is used by 
developers to discuss bugs, enhancements, and general topics concerning the 
framework's development.

David






From: Joseph Ottinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: "Struts Developers List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Struts Developers List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hello, all.
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:45:14 -0500 (EST)

Then enlighten me? I wouldn't have joined the list at all if I hadn't been
interested in learning more. Dave had a substantive point, one I responded
to. Where I erred once, I'm sure I can err again; I'm trying to prevent
that if I can.

On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, micael wrote:

> Joseph, you are making a fool out of yourself.  You seem to have no idea
> how little you know.
>
> At 11:08 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, David Graham wrote:
> >
> > > Joseph,
> > > I noticed you quoted me on your site but you left out the important 
point
> > > that Struts has never and will never dictate a model or view layer
> > > technology.  Struts gives you total freedom because at its core it's 
simply
> > > an action controller.  The taglibs will be replaced by standards 
like JSTL
> > > and JSF.
> >
> >Actually, I did note those things, while my definition of a "model"
> >differs slightly from yours. I made a point out of mentioning in my
> >introductory email here that I retracted one of my criticisms, centered
> >around your point.
> >
> > > I had never heard of your site before someone posted it on this list 
and I
> > > don't intend to visit it often.  Struts does not need a defense on 
your
> > > site.  *You* need to actually build a meaningful app using Struts 
and then
> > > make a judgement.  The only "defense" of Struts I'll offer is this:
> > > Thousands of successful web applications have been produced quickly 
and
> > > cheaply using Struts.  Struts is the most popular Java web MVC
> > framework for
> > > a reason.  I suggest you find out why.
> >
> >Lots of points here!
> >
> >For one thing, it's okay - my site has no banners, no sponsors begging 
for
> >extra traffic. Whether you visit often or not, well, hey - that's up to
> >you. As far as using struts: I've deployed struts apps, "meaningful" 
ones.
> >I've found other frameworks to be more appropriate for more situations.
> >"Most popular" is fairly well beyond doubt, and I've never claimed
> >otherwise (nor would I)... but then again, Windows is the "most 
popular"
> >OS, and that doesn't mean it's the best solution.
> >
> > > I frankly don't care if some people don't like Struts; that's a 
matter of
> > > personal preference.  I do care when it is misrepresented with 
ignorant
> > > statements.
> >
> >Indeed! I agree with this; as I've stated, my goal was to explain a
> >viewpoint that was asked about. I joined this list so that I could
> >determine what actually *IS* incorrect and fix that.
> >

-
Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://enigmastation.comIT Consultant

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Re: Hello, all.

[Joseph Ottinger]

Then enlighten me? I wouldn't have joined the list at all if I hadn't been
interested in learning more. Dave had a substantive point, one I responded
to. Where I erred once, I'm sure I can err again; I'm trying to prevent
that if I can.

On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, micael wrote:

> Joseph, you are making a fool out of yourself.  You seem to have no idea
> how little you know.
>
> At 11:08 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, David Graham wrote:
> >
> > > Joseph,
> > > I noticed you quoted me on your site but you left out the important point
> > > that Struts has never and will never dictate a model or view layer
> > > technology.  Struts gives you total freedom because at its core it's simply
> > > an action controller.  The taglibs will be replaced by standards like JSTL
> > > and JSF.
> >
> >Actually, I did note those things, while my definition of a "model"
> >differs slightly from yours. I made a point out of mentioning in my
> >introductory email here that I retracted one of my criticisms, centered
> >around your point.
> >
> > > I had never heard of your site before someone posted it on this list and I
> > > don't intend to visit it often.  Struts does not need a defense on your
> > > site.  *You* need to actually build a meaningful app using Struts and then
> > > make a judgement.  The only "defense" of Struts I'll offer is this:
> > > Thousands of successful web applications have been produced quickly and
> > > cheaply using Struts.  Struts is the most popular Java web MVC
> > framework for
> > > a reason.  I suggest you find out why.
> >
> >Lots of points here!
> >
> >For one thing, it's okay - my site has no banners, no sponsors begging for
> >extra traffic. Whether you visit often or not, well, hey - that's up to
> >you. As far as using struts: I've deployed struts apps, "meaningful" ones.
> >I've found other frameworks to be more appropriate for more situations.
> >"Most popular" is fairly well beyond doubt, and I've never claimed
> >otherwise (nor would I)... but then again, Windows is the "most popular"
> >OS, and that doesn't mean it's the best solution.
> >
> > > I frankly don't care if some people don't like Struts; that's a matter of
> > > personal preference.  I do care when it is misrepresented with ignorant
> > > statements.
> >
> >Indeed! I agree with this; as I've stated, my goal was to explain a
> >viewpoint that was asked about. I joined this list so that I could
> >determine what actually *IS* incorrect and fix that.
> >

-
Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://enigmastation.comIT Consultant

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Re: Hello, all.

[micael]

Joseph, you are making a fool out of yourself.  You seem to have no idea 
how little you know.

At 11:08 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, David Graham wrote:

> Joseph,
> I noticed you quoted me on your site but you left out the important point
> that Struts has never and will never dictate a model or view layer
> technology.  Struts gives you total freedom because at its core it's simply
> an action controller.  The taglibs will be replaced by standards like JSTL
> and JSF.

Actually, I did note those things, while my definition of a "model"
differs slightly from yours. I made a point out of mentioning in my
introductory email here that I retracted one of my criticisms, centered
around your point.

> I had never heard of your site before someone posted it on this list and I
> don't intend to visit it often.  Struts does not need a defense on your
> site.  *You* need to actually build a meaningful app using Struts and then
> make a judgement.  The only "defense" of Struts I'll offer is this:
> Thousands of successful web applications have been produced quickly and
> cheaply using Struts.  Struts is the most popular Java web MVC 
framework for
> a reason.  I suggest you find out why.

Lots of points here!

For one thing, it's okay - my site has no banners, no sponsors begging for
extra traffic. Whether you visit often or not, well, hey - that's up to
you. As far as using struts: I've deployed struts apps, "meaningful" ones.
I've found other frameworks to be more appropriate for more situations.
"Most popular" is fairly well beyond doubt, and I've never claimed
otherwise (nor would I)... but then again, Windows is the "most popular"
OS, and that doesn't mean it's the best solution.

> I frankly don't care if some people don't like Struts; that's a matter of
> personal preference.  I do care when it is misrepresented with ignorant
> statements.

Indeed! I agree with this; as I've stated, my goal was to explain a
viewpoint that was asked about. I joined this list so that I could
determine what actually *IS* incorrect and fix that.

-
Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://enigmastation.comIT Consultant

--
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For additional commands, e-mail: 

Micael

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information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally 
privileged.  This information is intended only for the use of the 
individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as 
indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, 
copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the 
information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited.  If you 
have received this transmission in error, please delete the message.  Thank 
you  



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Re: Hello, all.

[micael]

Great self-promotion, Joseph Ottinger.  Whatever you lack in knowledge, you 
certainly compensate for in your attitude.

At 10:49 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
Hi. I'm Joseph Ottinger (if you couldn't tell from my .sig, my From:
address, etc.) and I'm the one who wrote "Why are people so down on
Struts?" and its ancillary article. I made a point out of putting my email
address on http://java.enigmastation.com/ (which I had not done before) to
enable direct feedback on articles like that one, because I recognize
that, for one thing, this industry has sacred cows like many others, and
for another, to enable the information to be autocorrecting. (The concept
here is that if someone else with edit capabilities knows better than I,
they can edit -- or if someone without edit rights knows better, they can
email and I can establish the correct information.)

I'd like to offer you a chance to:

* Have a "what's great about struts" if you'd like
* Correct any factual errors, if any remain (one was corrected, certainly,
although I left in the original error to show the correction)
* Discuss the issue and motivations

I do not intend on flaming anyone, although I'm interested in what you
think.

-
Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://enigmastation.comIT Consultant

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information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally 
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individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as 
indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, 
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you  



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Re: Hello, all.

[Joseph Ottinger]

On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, David Graham wrote:

> Joseph,
> I noticed you quoted me on your site but you left out the important point
> that Struts has never and will never dictate a model or view layer
> technology.  Struts gives you total freedom because at its core it's simply
> an action controller.  The taglibs will be replaced by standards like JSTL
> and JSF.

Actually, I did note those things, while my definition of a "model"
differs slightly from yours. I made a point out of mentioning in my
introductory email here that I retracted one of my criticisms, centered
around your point.

> I had never heard of your site before someone posted it on this list and I
> don't intend to visit it often.  Struts does not need a defense on your
> site.  *You* need to actually build a meaningful app using Struts and then
> make a judgement.  The only "defense" of Struts I'll offer is this:
> Thousands of successful web applications have been produced quickly and
> cheaply using Struts.  Struts is the most popular Java web MVC framework for
> a reason.  I suggest you find out why.

Lots of points here!

For one thing, it's okay - my site has no banners, no sponsors begging for
extra traffic. Whether you visit often or not, well, hey - that's up to
you. As far as using struts: I've deployed struts apps, "meaningful" ones.
I've found other frameworks to be more appropriate for more situations.
"Most popular" is fairly well beyond doubt, and I've never claimed
otherwise (nor would I)... but then again, Windows is the "most popular"
OS, and that doesn't mean it's the best solution.

> I frankly don't care if some people don't like Struts; that's a matter of
> personal preference.  I do care when it is misrepresented with ignorant
> statements.

Indeed! I agree with this; as I've stated, my goal was to explain a
viewpoint that was asked about. I joined this list so that I could
determine what actually *IS* incorrect and fix that.

-
Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://enigmastation.comIT Consultant

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Hello, all.

[David Graham]

Joseph,
I noticed you quoted me on your site but you left out the important point 
that Struts has never and will never dictate a model or view layer 
technology.  Struts gives you total freedom because at its core it's simply 
an action controller.  The taglibs will be replaced by standards like JSTL 
and JSF.

I had never heard of your site before someone posted it on this list and I 
don't intend to visit it often.  Struts does not need a defense on your 
site.  *You* need to actually build a meaningful app using Struts and then 
make a judgement.  The only "defense" of Struts I'll offer is this: 
Thousands of successful web applications have been produced quickly and 
cheaply using Struts.  Struts is the most popular Java web MVC framework for 
a reason.  I suggest you find out why.

I frankly don't care if some people don't like Struts; that's a matter of 
personal preference.  I do care when it is misrepresented with ignorant 
statements.

David






From: Joseph Ottinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: "Struts Developers List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Hello, all.
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:49:31 -0500 (EST)

Hi. I'm Joseph Ottinger (if you couldn't tell from my .sig, my From:
address, etc.) and I'm the one who wrote "Why are people so down on
Struts?" and its ancillary article. I made a point out of putting my email
address on http://java.enigmastation.com/ (which I had not done before) to
enable direct feedback on articles like that one, because I recognize
that, for one thing, this industry has sacred cows like many others, and
for another, to enable the information to be autocorrecting. (The concept
here is that if someone else with edit capabilities knows better than I,
they can edit -- or if someone without edit rights knows better, they can
email and I can establish the correct information.)

I'd like to offer you a chance to:

* Have a "what's great about struts" if you'd like
* Correct any factual errors, if any remain (one was corrected, certainly,
although I left in the original error to show the correction)
* Discuss the issue and motivations

I do not intend on flaming anyone, although I'm interested in what you
think.

-
Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://enigmastation.comIT Consultant

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   

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