AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
I think there exist many and more fruitful ways to express your individuality than using IDE A rather than that ide B. If the IDE is not important, why not standardize one: Makes it easier for administrators to setup new boxes, allows to pass the box to another member of your team, allows to use the same plug-ins and so on: Just think about Integration with version-Control: Cowboy-Coder A uses Eclipse which has a bug with Perforce-Integration, Cowboy-Coder B insists on using IntelliJ, which has no Perforce-Integration at all: And the Newbie-Coder comes in and is totally confused as there exist three ways of setting up your enviroment. No Standards at all are ok if you have a team-size of one... --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --- Datum: 21.01.2003 16:20 Von: James Childers [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers I second this. Different people work in different ways; standardizing an IDE for every developer ignores this rather key fact of human nature. If my company were to standardize on an IDE that some people don't like, they're just going to be frustrated and bitter, decreasing productivity. *shudder* Thank Baal they don't do that at my company. Everybody can use whatever development tools they want, so long as the code compiles and passes the unit tests. I use Eclipse and Vim, primarily. If management tried to take away Vim I would have to tell them to... well... You get the idea. Speaking of which, I've been tinkering with IDEA lately, and it looks quite promising. Tight, and as fast as Eclipse. Plus I like the fact that I can do everything within it without using the keyboard. And it can do regexp search and replaces, which is one of the main things keeping me married to Vim right now. -= J -Original Message- From: Alex [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:16 AM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Daniel H. F. e Silva wrote: My boss wants a standard environment to all developers. So, order is order. I think his concern about this task is to improve productivity. So, what is more productive? If he wants productivity then let the developers use the tools they are familiar with. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
Hi s.frank, I think your first paragraph and second make different points. I completely disagree that choice of IDE is just an aesthetic choice. Your second point about the Perforce-Integration is talking about specific functionality. If your project requires specific functionality, then the choices of IDEs are limited. However, people think differently. Take NetBeans and Eclipse. They do the same job, but they do it in VASTLY different ways. Why? Because different people have different ideas. One person will be far more productive using Eclipse and a different person will be more productive with NetBeans. Seriously... who _cares_ if it's easier for an administrator to setup a new box. That is a one time event and completely gets lost in the amount of time a developer will spend using the machine. In addition, IDEs are pretty darn easy to install. My box at work came without one, I chose my favorite and installed that one. It's a myth that using one IDE improves team performance. Kenny Smith JournalScape.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think there exist many and more fruitful ways to express your individuality than using IDE A rather than that ide B. If the IDE is not important, why not standardize one: Makes it easier for administrators to setup new boxes, allows to pass the box to another member of your team, allows to use the same plug-ins and so on: Just think about Integration with version-Control: Cowboy-Coder A uses Eclipse which has a bug with Perforce-Integration, Cowboy-Coder B insists on using IntelliJ, which has no Perforce-Integration at all: And the Newbie-Coder comes in and is totally confused as there exist three ways of setting up your enviroment. No Standards at all are ok if you have a team-size of one... --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --- Datum: 21.01.2003 16:20 Von: James Childers [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers I second this. Different people work in different ways; standardizing an IDE for every developer ignores this rather key fact of human nature. If my company were to standardize on an IDE that some people don't like, they're just going to be frustrated and bitter, decreasing productivity. *shudder* Thank Baal they don't do that at my company. Everybody can use whatever development tools they want, so long as the code compiles and passes the unit tests. I use Eclipse and Vim, primarily. If management tried to take away Vim I would have to tell them to... well... You get the idea. Speaking of which, I've been tinkering with IDEA lately, and it looks quite promising. Tight, and as fast as Eclipse. Plus I like the fact that I can do everything within it without using the keyboard. And it can do regexp search and replaces, which is one of the main things keeping me married to Vim right now. -= J -Original Message- From: Alex [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:16 AM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Daniel H. F. e Silva wrote: My boss wants a standard environment to all developers. So, order is order. I think his concern about this task is to improve productivity. So, what is more productive? If he wants productivity then let the developers use the tools they are familiar with. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
ok, I think it's time for us all, to lower our standards: Talking about newbies: The newbies I mean have just started Java. They think R/3 is a piece of good Software instead of a piece of crappy scripts. They asked things like: What do you mean with Transaction?, Huh, why a database *and* an applicationserver?. And if you ask them for their favourite tool, they show you a Chainsaw and a Screwdriver(ok, only the better ones have screwdrivers). If you tell them: Use what makes you more productive they stick to paperpencil. I understand them, if you start there, there is nothing you can decide upon. You have to tell them: But if you have more than one senior-coder, it would be nice if they agreed on what they tell them... --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --- Datum: 21.01.2003 16:48 Von: James Childers [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers This isn't about expressing your individuality, it's about doing what makes you -- the coder -- more productive. If it's your job to write code, and you feel more comfortable using your favorite tool, then by all means use it. As far as administrative costs are concerned: Coders are smart enough to troubleshoot their own boxes, and if they're not then they damn well should be. Newbies? I challenge the notion that forcing new toolsets on them is productive in the long run. It is completely within the realm of possibility that they will have a shorter ramp-up time if they are able to use tools they are already familiar with to integrate with existing standards. In short: I have never encountered a development environment where it would be better to standardize upon a single, monolithic work environment for all developers. Some people like Emacs, some like Eclipse, some like directly editing bytecode with a hex editor. Whatever. So long as the project gets done on time, on budget, and meets the requirements *it doesn't matter*. -= J PS: I am currently working on a team of 12 developers who each use their own toolset. We are ahead of schedule and under budget. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:30 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers I think there exist many and more fruitful ways to express your individuality than using IDE A rather than that ide B. If the IDE is not important, why not standardize one: Makes it easier for administrators to setup new boxes, allows to pass the box to another member of your team, allows to use the same plug-ins and so on: Just think about Integration with version-Control: Cowboy-Coder A uses Eclipse which has a bug with Perforce-Integration, Cowboy-Coder B insists on using IntelliJ, which has no Perforce-Integration at all: And the Newbie-Coder comes in and is totally confused as there exist three ways of setting up your enviroment. No Standards at all are ok if you have a team-size of one... --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --- Datum: 21.01.2003 16:20 Von: James Childers [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers I second this. Different people work in different ways; standardizing an IDE for every developer ignores this rather key fact of human nature. If my company were to standardize on an IDE that some people don't like, they're just going to be frustrated and bitter, decreasing productivity. *shudder* Thank Baal they don't do that at my company. Everybody can use whatever development tools they want, so long as the code compiles and passes the unit tests. I use Eclipse and Vim, primarily. If management tried to take away Vim I would have to tell them to... well... You get the idea. Speaking of which, I've been tinkering with IDEA lately, and it looks quite promising. Tight, and as fast as Eclipse. Plus I like the fact that I can do everything within it without using the keyboard. And it can do regexp search and replaces, which is one of the main things keeping me married to Vim right now. -= J -Original Message- From: Alex [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:16 AM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Daniel H. F. e Silva wrote: My boss wants a standard environment to all developers. So, order is order. I think his concern about this task is to improve productivity. So, what is more productive? If he wants productivity then let the developers use the tools they are familiar with. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional
AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
maybe the economic downturn should go on for a while and some of the lesser talented will go back to farming... --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --- Datum: 21.01.2003 17:18 Von: Andrew Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers Im surprised sich developers have jobs in todays market. Surely there must be a glut of more experienced developers that can be obtained at the same price? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, 22 January 2003 00:15 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers ok, I think it's time for us all, to lower our standards: Talking about newbies: The newbies I mean have just started Java. They think R/3 is a piece of good Software instead of a piece of crappy scripts. They asked things like: What do you mean with Transaction?, Huh, why a database *and* an applicationserver?. And if you ask them for their favourite tool, they show you a Chainsaw and a Screwdriver(ok, only the better ones have screwdrivers). If you tell them: Use what makes you more productive they stick to paperpencil. I understand them, if you start there, there is nothing you can decide upon. You have to tell them: But if you have more than one senior-coder, it would be nice if they agreed on what they tell them... --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --- Datum: 21.01.2003 16:48 Von: James Childers [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers This isn't about expressing your individuality, it's about doing what makes you -- the coder -- more productive. If it's your job to write code, and you feel more comfortable using your favorite tool, then by all means use it. As far as administrative costs are concerned: Coders are smart enough to troubleshoot their own boxes, and if they're not then they damn well should be. Newbies? I challenge the notion that forcing new toolsets on them is productive in the long run. It is completely within the realm of possibility that they will have a shorter ramp-up time if they are able to use tools they are already familiar with to integrate with existing standards. In short: I have never encountered a development environment where it would be better to standardize upon a single, monolithic work environment for all developers. Some people like Emacs, some like Eclipse, some like directly editing bytecode with a hex editor. Whatever. So long as the project gets done on time, on budget, and meets the requirements *it doesn't matter*. -= J PS: I am currently working on a team of 12 developers who each use their own toolset. We are ahead of schedule and under budget. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:30 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers I think there exist many and more fruitful ways to express your individuality than using IDE A rather than that ide B. If the IDE is not important, why not standardize one: Makes it easier for administrators to setup new boxes, allows to pass the box to another member of your team, allows to use the same plug-ins and so on: Just think about Integration with version-Control: Cowboy-Coder A uses Eclipse which has a bug with Perforce-Integration, Cowboy-Coder B insists on using IntelliJ, which has no Perforce-Integration at all: And the Newbie-Coder comes in and is totally confused as there exist three ways of setting up your enviroment. No Standards at all are ok if you have a team-size of one... --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --- Datum: 21.01.2003 16:20 Von: James Childers [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers I second this. Different people work in different ways; standardizing an IDE for every developer ignores this rather key fact of human nature. If my company were to standardize on an IDE that some people don't like, they're just going to be frustrated and bitter, decreasing productivity. *shudder* Thank Baal they don't do that at my company. Everybody can use whatever development tools they want, so long as the code compiles and passes the unit tests. I use Eclipse and Vim, primarily. If management tried to take away Vim I would have to tell them to... well... You get the idea. Speaking of which, I've been tinkering with IDEA lately, and it looks quite promising. Tight, and as fast as Eclipse. Plus I like the fact that I can do everything within it without using the keyboard. And it can do regexp search and replaces, which is one of the main things keeping me
Re: AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
Kenny Smith wrote: Hi s.frank, I think your first paragraph and second make different points. I completely disagree that choice of IDE is just an aesthetic choice. Your second point about the Perforce-Integration is talking about specific functionality. If your project requires specific functionality, then the choices of IDEs are limited. However, people think differently. Take NetBeans and Eclipse. They do the same job, but they do it in VASTLY different ways. Why? Because different people have different ideas. One person will be far more productive using Eclipse and a different person will be more productive with NetBeans. Yes. Seriously... who _cares_ if it's easier for an administrator to setup a new box. That is a one time event and completely gets lost in the amount of time a developer will spend using the machine. In addition, IDEs are pretty darn easy to install. My box at work came without one, I chose my favorite and installed that one. Sure -- let each developer set up their own environment. It's a myth that using one IDE improves team performance. I agree. Consider Struts (and thus getting this thread somewhat back on topic). Who cares what IDE Craig or Ted or any of the other committers use? In an OO development environment, define the interfaces between subsystems, divie up the work, and integrate the work of different developers when the time comes. How each developer accomplishes his subsystem is immaterial as long as the functionality and interfaces are well-defined. david Kenny Smith JournalScape.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think there exist many and more fruitful ways to express your individuality than using IDE A rather than that ide B. If the IDE is not important, why not standardize one: Makes it easier for administrators to setup new boxes, allows to pass the box to another member of your team, allows to use the same plug-ins and so on: Just think about Integration with version-Control: Cowboy-Coder A uses Eclipse which has a bug with Perforce-Integration, Cowboy-Coder B insists on using IntelliJ, which has no Perforce-Integration at all: And the Newbie-Coder comes in and is totally confused as there exist three ways of setting up your enviroment. No Standards at all are ok if you have a team-size of one... --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --- Datum: 21.01.2003 16:20 Von: James Childers [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers I second this. Different people work in different ways; standardizing an IDE for every developer ignores this rather key fact of human nature. If my company were to standardize on an IDE that some people don't like, they're just going to be frustrated and bitter, decreasing productivity. *shudder* Thank Baal they don't do that at my company. Everybody can use whatever development tools they want, so long as the code compiles and passes the unit tests. I use Eclipse and Vim, primarily. If management tried to take away Vim I would have to tell them to... well... You get the idea. Speaking of which, I've been tinkering with IDEA lately, and it looks quite promising. Tight, and as fast as Eclipse. Plus I like the fact that I can do everything within it without using the keyboard. And it can do regexp search and replaces, which is one of the main things keeping me married to Vim right now. -= J -Original Message- From: Alex [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:16 AM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Daniel H. F. e Silva wrote: My boss wants a standard environment to all developers. So, order is order. I think his concern about this task is to improve productivity. So, what is more productive? If he wants productivity then let the developers use the tools they are familiar with. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
