RE: keeping the old debate open...

2002-07-12 Thread wbchmura 


I saw about 4 new ones come across since then...


-Original Message-
From: daniel.joshua [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:13 AM
To: struts-user
Subject: RE: keeping the old debate open...


23 bugs... ooo, sounds close to beta 2 =)

Just a big thank you to all those who are solving bugs.


Regards,
Daniel

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 1:37 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: keeping the old debate open...



Okay, if I do that and further refine it by:

All SEVERITY except enhancement
Versions 1.1b1, Nightly Build, Unknown

I am down to 23 bugs.  Is this an accurate representation of what has to
happen before the next beta release?   Are Enhancements planned to be
done before the next beta?

Saying there are 23 known bugs to be fixed sounds much better for the
project than including all the enhancement requests too!







-Original Message-
From: craigmcc [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 12:09 PM
To: struts-user
Subject: RE: keeping the old debate open...




On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:55:14 -0400
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: keeping the old debate open...
>
>
> I cant get more than 15 bugs to be displayed and half of those are
> enhancements...
> On the summary page I can see a bunch, but under a query forget it!
>

As you might imagine :-), I have a saved query on Bugzilla to select
Struts bug reports.  As of a few seconds ago, it finds 92 of them (many
enhancements, many bugs against 1.0.x, and a few outstanding against
1.1).

The search criteria I use:
- Status = UNCONFIRMED, NEW, ASSIGNED, REOPENED
- Program = Struts

For reference, our bug tracking system (for all Jakarta and
Xml.apache.org
projects) is at:

  http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/

Craig



>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Kevin.Bedell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 10:18 AM
> To: struts-user
> Subject: Re: keeping the old debate open...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > just a question about how open-source projects are managed at
> > apache's : how do you know you run out of bugs to fix ? what's the
way
> the
> > projects are tested ? thanks, since my boss wonders about
open-source
> and
> > fears it a bit...
>
> One of fundamental advantages of Open Source is that finding bugs
> generally
> occurs much faster. Plus, as a user you have direct access to the bug
> tracking system (bugzilla, in this case at
> http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/ ).
>
> There are currently 90 open bugs for Struts. How do I know this? I
just
> looked - it's on-line for everyone to see. If you find a bug, you can
> add
> one yourself and someone with appropriate rights in bugzilla will have
> to
> address it before it dissapears - it's an extremely 'open book'
approach
> that no vendor would dream of giving you. I've worked for software
> companies and we would NEVER have opened our bug lists - our
competitors
> would have printed them out and used them against us in sales calls.
>
> Eric Raymond, in his essay "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" says that
> ``Given
> enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.'' And, "at least, that they
turn
> shallow pretty quickly when exposed to a thousand eager co-developers
> pounding on every single new release".
>
> This is why Linux is more stable than NT and Apache dominates the web
> server market - it's not because it's free, it's because it's BETTER
and
> FREER of BUGS. If I were your boss, I'd worry more about the quality
of
> commercial software than I would about open source.
>
>
> If your manager is concerned about using Open Source becuase of
software
> quality, then get them a copy of Eric's book: The Cathedral and the
> Bazaar
> - it's a very short and easy read.
>
>
> The Cathedral and the Bazaar is available at either:
>
>on-line free:
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/
>
>   - or -
>
>   from Amazon:
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596001088/qid=1026397260/sr=8-1/ref=
sr_8_1/103-4271210-7048648
>
>
> The discussion about Open Source projects and debugging is at:
>
>
>
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/x147.h
tml
>
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<

RE: keeping the old debate open...

2002-07-11 Thread Daniel J. D'Cotta 

23 bugs... ooo, sounds close to beta 2 =)

Just a big thank you to all those who are solving bugs.


Regards,
Daniel

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 1:37 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: keeping the old debate open...



Okay, if I do that and further refine it by:

All SEVERITY except enhancement
Versions 1.1b1, Nightly Build, Unknown

I am down to 23 bugs.  Is this an accurate representation of what has to
happen before the next beta release?   Are Enhancements planned to be
done before the next beta?

Saying there are 23 known bugs to be fixed sounds much better for the
project than including all the enhancement requests too!







-Original Message-
From: craigmcc [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 12:09 PM
To: struts-user
Subject: RE: keeping the old debate open...




On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:55:14 -0400
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: keeping the old debate open...
>
>
> I cant get more than 15 bugs to be displayed and half of those are
> enhancements...
> On the summary page I can see a bunch, but under a query forget it!
>

As you might imagine :-), I have a saved query on Bugzilla to select
Struts bug reports.  As of a few seconds ago, it finds 92 of them (many
enhancements, many bugs against 1.0.x, and a few outstanding against
1.1).

The search criteria I use:
- Status = UNCONFIRMED, NEW, ASSIGNED, REOPENED
- Program = Struts

For reference, our bug tracking system (for all Jakarta and
Xml.apache.org
projects) is at:

  http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/

Craig



>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Kevin.Bedell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 10:18 AM
> To: struts-user
> Subject: Re: keeping the old debate open...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > just a question about how open-source projects are managed at
> > apache's : how do you know you run out of bugs to fix ? what's the
way
> the
> > projects are tested ? thanks, since my boss wonders about
open-source
> and
> > fears it a bit...
>
> One of fundamental advantages of Open Source is that finding bugs
> generally
> occurs much faster. Plus, as a user you have direct access to the bug
> tracking system (bugzilla, in this case at
> http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/ ).
>
> There are currently 90 open bugs for Struts. How do I know this? I
just
> looked - it's on-line for everyone to see. If you find a bug, you can
> add
> one yourself and someone with appropriate rights in bugzilla will have
> to
> address it before it dissapears - it's an extremely 'open book'
approach
> that no vendor would dream of giving you. I've worked for software
> companies and we would NEVER have opened our bug lists - our
competitors
> would have printed them out and used them against us in sales calls.
>
> Eric Raymond, in his essay "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" says that
> ``Given
> enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.'' And, "at least, that they
turn
> shallow pretty quickly when exposed to a thousand eager co-developers
> pounding on every single new release".
>
> This is why Linux is more stable than NT and Apache dominates the web
> server market - it's not because it's free, it's because it's BETTER
and
> FREER of BUGS. If I were your boss, I'd worry more about the quality
of
> commercial software than I would about open source.
>
>
> If your manager is concerned about using Open Source becuase of
software
> quality, then get them a copy of Eric's book: The Cathedral and the
> Bazaar
> - it's a very short and easy read.
>
>
> The Cathedral and the Bazaar is available at either:
>
>on-line free:
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/
>
>   - or -
>
>   from Amazon:
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596001088/qid=1026397260/sr=8-1/ref=
sr_8_1/103-4271210-7048648
>
>
> The discussion about Open Source projects and debugging is at:
>
>
>
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/x147.h
tml
>
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For additional commands, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For additional commands, e-mail:
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--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

RE: keeping the old debate open...

2002-07-11 Thread wbchmura 

Sure, I try to help where I can

-Original Message-
From: jholmes612 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 1:41 PM
To: struts-user
Subject: RE: keeping the old debate open...


That's correct.

Enhancements are just that.  They will not prevent
beta 2 from going out.  Once those 23 bugs are knocked
it's likely that beta 2 will be released.  If you have
time jump in and fix a bug or two and submit patches
and we'll be that much closer to beta 2 being ready.

-james
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jamesholmes.com/struts/


--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Okay, if I do that and further refine it by:
> 
> All SEVERITY except enhancement
> Versions 1.1b1, Nightly Build, Unknown
> 
> I am down to 23 bugs.  Is this an accurate
> representation of what has to 
> happen before the next beta release?   Are
> Enhancements planned to be 
> done before the next beta?
> 
> Saying there are 23 known bugs to be fixed sounds
> much better for the 
> project than including all the enhancement requests
> too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: craigmcc [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 12:09 PM
> To: struts-user
> Subject: RE: keeping the old debate open...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> 
> > Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:55:14 -0400
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: keeping the old debate open...
> >
> >
> > I cant get more than 15 bugs to be displayed and
> half of those are
> > enhancements...
> > On the summary page I can see a bunch, but under a
> query forget it!
> >
> 
> As you might imagine :-), I have a saved query on
> Bugzilla to select
> Struts bug reports.  As of a few seconds ago, it
> finds 92 of them (many
> enhancements, many bugs against 1.0.x, and a few
> outstanding against 
> 1.1).
> 
> The search criteria I use:
> - Status = UNCONFIRMED, NEW, ASSIGNED, REOPENED
> - Program = Struts
> 
> For reference, our bug tracking system (for all
> Jakarta and 
> Xml.apache.org
> projects) is at:
> 
>   http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/
> 
> Craig
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Kevin.Bedell
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 10:18 AM
> > To: struts-user
> > Subject: Re: keeping the old debate open...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > just a question about how open-source projects
> are managed at
> > > apache's : how do you know you run out of bugs
> to fix ? what's the 
> way
> > the
> > > projects are tested ? thanks, since my boss
> wonders about 
> open-source
> > and
> > > fears it a bit...
> >
> > One of fundamental advantages of Open Source is
> that finding bugs
> > generally
> > occurs much faster. Plus, as a user you have
> direct access to the bug
> > tracking system (bugzilla, in this case at
> > http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/ ).
> >
> > There are currently 90 open bugs for Struts. How
> do I know this? I 
> just
> > looked - it's on-line for everyone to see. If you
> find a bug, you can
> > add
> > one yourself and someone with appropriate rights
> in bugzilla will have
> > to
> > address it before it dissapears - it's an
> extremely 'open book' 
> approach
> > that no vendor would dream of giving you. I've
> worked for software
> > companies and we would NEVER have opened our bug
> lists - our 
> competitors
> > would have printed them out and used them against
> us in sales calls.
> >
> > Eric Raymond, in his essay "The Cathedral and the
> Bazaar" says that
> > ``Given
> > enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.'' And, "at
> least, that they 
> turn
> > shallow pretty quickly when exposed to a thousand
> eager co-developers
> > pounding on every single new release".
> >
> > This is why Linux is more stable than NT and
> Apache dominates the web
> > server market - it's not because it's free, it's
> because it's BETTER 
> and
> > FREER of BUGS. If I were your boss, I'd worry more
> about the quality 
> of
> > commercial software than I would about open
> source.
> >
> >
> > If your manager is concerned about using Open
> Source becuase of 
> software
> > quality,

RE: keeping the old debate open...

2002-07-11 Thread James Holmes 

That's correct.

Enhancements are just that.  They will not prevent
beta 2 from going out.  Once those 23 bugs are knocked
it's likely that beta 2 will be released.  If you have
time jump in and fix a bug or two and submit patches
and we'll be that much closer to beta 2 being ready.

-james
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jamesholmes.com/struts/


--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Okay, if I do that and further refine it by:
> 
> All SEVERITY except enhancement
> Versions 1.1b1, Nightly Build, Unknown
> 
> I am down to 23 bugs.  Is this an accurate
> representation of what has to 
> happen before the next beta release?   Are
> Enhancements planned to be 
> done before the next beta?
> 
> Saying there are 23 known bugs to be fixed sounds
> much better for the 
> project than including all the enhancement requests
> too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: craigmcc [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 12:09 PM
> To: struts-user
> Subject: RE: keeping the old debate open...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> 
> > Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:55:14 -0400
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: keeping the old debate open...
> >
> >
> > I cant get more than 15 bugs to be displayed and
> half of those are
> > enhancements...
> > On the summary page I can see a bunch, but under a
> query forget it!
> >
> 
> As you might imagine :-), I have a saved query on
> Bugzilla to select
> Struts bug reports.  As of a few seconds ago, it
> finds 92 of them (many
> enhancements, many bugs against 1.0.x, and a few
> outstanding against 
> 1.1).
> 
> The search criteria I use:
> - Status = UNCONFIRMED, NEW, ASSIGNED, REOPENED
> - Program = Struts
> 
> For reference, our bug tracking system (for all
> Jakarta and 
> Xml.apache.org
> projects) is at:
> 
>   http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/
> 
> Craig
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Kevin.Bedell
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 10:18 AM
> > To: struts-user
> > Subject: Re: keeping the old debate open...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > just a question about how open-source projects
> are managed at
> > > apache's : how do you know you run out of bugs
> to fix ? what's the 
> way
> > the
> > > projects are tested ? thanks, since my boss
> wonders about 
> open-source
> > and
> > > fears it a bit...
> >
> > One of fundamental advantages of Open Source is
> that finding bugs
> > generally
> > occurs much faster. Plus, as a user you have
> direct access to the bug
> > tracking system (bugzilla, in this case at
> > http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/ ).
> >
> > There are currently 90 open bugs for Struts. How
> do I know this? I 
> just
> > looked - it's on-line for everyone to see. If you
> find a bug, you can
> > add
> > one yourself and someone with appropriate rights
> in bugzilla will have
> > to
> > address it before it dissapears - it's an
> extremely 'open book' 
> approach
> > that no vendor would dream of giving you. I've
> worked for software
> > companies and we would NEVER have opened our bug
> lists - our 
> competitors
> > would have printed them out and used them against
> us in sales calls.
> >
> > Eric Raymond, in his essay "The Cathedral and the
> Bazaar" says that
> > ``Given
> > enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.'' And, "at
> least, that they 
> turn
> > shallow pretty quickly when exposed to a thousand
> eager co-developers
> > pounding on every single new release".
> >
> > This is why Linux is more stable than NT and
> Apache dominates the web
> > server market - it's not because it's free, it's
> because it's BETTER 
> and
> > FREER of BUGS. If I were your boss, I'd worry more
> about the quality 
> of
> > commercial software than I would about open
> source.
> >
> >
> > If your manager is concerned about using Open
> Source becuase of 
> software
> > quality, then get them a copy of Eric's book: The
> Cathedral and the
> > Bazaar
> > - it's a very short and easy read.
> >
> >
> > The Cathedral and the Bazaar is available at
&g

RE: keeping the old debate open...

2002-07-11 Thread wbchmura 


Okay, if I do that and further refine it by:

All SEVERITY except enhancement
Versions 1.1b1, Nightly Build, Unknown

I am down to 23 bugs.  Is this an accurate representation of what has to 
happen before the next beta release?   Are Enhancements planned to be 
done before the next beta?

Saying there are 23 known bugs to be fixed sounds much better for the 
project than including all the enhancement requests too!







-Original Message-
From: craigmcc [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 12:09 PM
To: struts-user
Subject: RE: keeping the old debate open...




On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:55:14 -0400
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: keeping the old debate open...
>
>
> I cant get more than 15 bugs to be displayed and half of those are
> enhancements...
> On the summary page I can see a bunch, but under a query forget it!
>

As you might imagine :-), I have a saved query on Bugzilla to select
Struts bug reports.  As of a few seconds ago, it finds 92 of them (many
enhancements, many bugs against 1.0.x, and a few outstanding against 
1.1).

The search criteria I use:
- Status = UNCONFIRMED, NEW, ASSIGNED, REOPENED
- Program = Struts

For reference, our bug tracking system (for all Jakarta and 
Xml.apache.org
projects) is at:

  http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/

Craig



>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Kevin.Bedell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 10:18 AM
> To: struts-user
> Subject: Re: keeping the old debate open...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > just a question about how open-source projects are managed at
> > apache's : how do you know you run out of bugs to fix ? what's the 
way
> the
> > projects are tested ? thanks, since my boss wonders about 
open-source
> and
> > fears it a bit...
>
> One of fundamental advantages of Open Source is that finding bugs
> generally
> occurs much faster. Plus, as a user you have direct access to the bug
> tracking system (bugzilla, in this case at
> http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/ ).
>
> There are currently 90 open bugs for Struts. How do I know this? I 
just
> looked - it's on-line for everyone to see. If you find a bug, you can
> add
> one yourself and someone with appropriate rights in bugzilla will have
> to
> address it before it dissapears - it's an extremely 'open book' 
approach
> that no vendor would dream of giving you. I've worked for software
> companies and we would NEVER have opened our bug lists - our 
competitors
> would have printed them out and used them against us in sales calls.
>
> Eric Raymond, in his essay "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" says that
> ``Given
> enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.'' And, "at least, that they 
turn
> shallow pretty quickly when exposed to a thousand eager co-developers
> pounding on every single new release".
>
> This is why Linux is more stable than NT and Apache dominates the web
> server market - it's not because it's free, it's because it's BETTER 
and
> FREER of BUGS. If I were your boss, I'd worry more about the quality 
of
> commercial software than I would about open source.
>
>
> If your manager is concerned about using Open Source becuase of 
software
> quality, then get them a copy of Eric's book: The Cathedral and the
> Bazaar
> - it's a very short and easy read.
>
>
> The Cathedral and the Bazaar is available at either:
>
>on-line free:   
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/
>
>   - or -
>
>   from Amazon:
> 
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596001088/qid=1026397260/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-4271210-7048648
>
>
> The discussion about Open Source projects and debugging is at:
>
>
> 
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/x147.html
>
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For additional commands, e-mail: 
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: keeping the old debate open...

2002-07-11 Thread Craig R. McClanahan 



On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:17:33 -0400
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: keeping the old debate open...
>
>
>
>
>
> > just a question about how open-source projects are managed at
> > apache's : how do you know you run out of bugs to fix ? what's the way
> the
> > projects are tested ? thanks, since my boss wonders about open-source and
> > fears it a bit...
>
> One of fundamental advantages of Open Source is that finding bugs generally
> occurs much faster. Plus, as a user you have direct access to the bug
> tracking system (bugzilla, in this case at
> http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/ ).
>

When I first started doing open source (~5 years ago), I intellectually
believed that this would be true -- it made sense.  But, beyond finding
bugs in the first place, I am continually amazed at how willing people are
to not only notice that there was a problem, but go into the source and
figure out how to fix it, so that they can provide a patch.  The Struts
community in particular has been very helpful in that regard.

Craig


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RE: keeping the old debate open...

2002-07-11 Thread Craig R. McClanahan 



On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:55:14 -0400
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: keeping the old debate open...
>
>
> I cant get more than 15 bugs to be displayed and half of those are
> enhancements...
> On the summary page I can see a bunch, but under a query forget it!
>

As you might imagine :-), I have a saved query on Bugzilla to select
Struts bug reports.  As of a few seconds ago, it finds 92 of them (many
enhancements, many bugs against 1.0.x, and a few outstanding against 1.1).

The search criteria I use:
- Status = UNCONFIRMED, NEW, ASSIGNED, REOPENED
- Program = Struts

For reference, our bug tracking system (for all Jakarta and Xml.apache.org
projects) is at:

  http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/

Craig



>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Kevin.Bedell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 10:18 AM
> To: struts-user
> Subject: Re: keeping the old debate open...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > just a question about how open-source projects are managed at
> > apache's : how do you know you run out of bugs to fix ? what's the way
> the
> > projects are tested ? thanks, since my boss wonders about open-source
> and
> > fears it a bit...
>
> One of fundamental advantages of Open Source is that finding bugs
> generally
> occurs much faster. Plus, as a user you have direct access to the bug
> tracking system (bugzilla, in this case at
> http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/ ).
>
> There are currently 90 open bugs for Struts. How do I know this? I just
> looked - it's on-line for everyone to see. If you find a bug, you can
> add
> one yourself and someone with appropriate rights in bugzilla will have
> to
> address it before it dissapears - it's an extremely 'open book' approach
> that no vendor would dream of giving you. I've worked for software
> companies and we would NEVER have opened our bug lists - our competitors
> would have printed them out and used them against us in sales calls.
>
> Eric Raymond, in his essay "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" says that
> ``Given
> enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.'' And, "at least, that they turn
> shallow pretty quickly when exposed to a thousand eager co-developers
> pounding on every single new release".
>
> This is why Linux is more stable than NT and Apache dominates the web
> server market - it's not because it's free, it's because it's BETTER and
> FREER of BUGS. If I were your boss, I'd worry more about the quality of
> commercial software than I would about open source.
>
>
> If your manager is concerned about using Open Source becuase of software
> quality, then get them a copy of Eric's book: The Cathedral and the
> Bazaar
> - it's a very short and easy read.
>
>
> The Cathedral and the Bazaar is available at either:
>
>on-line free:   http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/
>
>   - or -
>
>   from Amazon:
> 
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596001088/qid=1026397260/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-4271210-7048648
>
>
> The discussion about Open Source projects and debugging is at:
>
>
> http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/x147.html
>
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>
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>
>


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RE: keeping the old debate open...

2002-07-11 Thread wbchmura 


I cant get more than 15 bugs to be displayed and half of those are 
enhancements...
On the summary page I can see a bunch, but under a query forget it!





-Original Message-
From: Kevin.Bedell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 10:18 AM
To: struts-user
Subject: Re: keeping the old debate open...






> just a question about how open-source projects are managed at
> apache's : how do you know you run out of bugs to fix ? what's the way
the
> projects are tested ? thanks, since my boss wonders about open-source 
and
> fears it a bit...

One of fundamental advantages of Open Source is that finding bugs 
generally
occurs much faster. Plus, as a user you have direct access to the bug
tracking system (bugzilla, in this case at
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/ ).

There are currently 90 open bugs for Struts. How do I know this? I just
looked - it's on-line for everyone to see. If you find a bug, you can 
add
one yourself and someone with appropriate rights in bugzilla will have 
to
address it before it dissapears - it's an extremely 'open book' approach
that no vendor would dream of giving you. I've worked for software
companies and we would NEVER have opened our bug lists - our competitors
would have printed them out and used them against us in sales calls.

Eric Raymond, in his essay "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" says that 
``Given
enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.'' And, "at least, that they turn
shallow pretty quickly when exposed to a thousand eager co-developers
pounding on every single new release".

This is why Linux is more stable than NT and Apache dominates the web
server market - it's not because it's free, it's because it's BETTER and
FREER of BUGS. If I were your boss, I'd worry more about the quality of
commercial software than I would about open source.


If your manager is concerned about using Open Source becuase of software
quality, then get them a copy of Eric's book: The Cathedral and the 
Bazaar
- it's a very short and easy read.


The Cathedral and the Bazaar is available at either:

   on-line free:   http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/

  - or -

  from Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596001088/qid=1026397260/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-4271210-7048648


The discussion about Open Source projects and debugging is at:

  
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/x147.html


Best of luck,

Kevin




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<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



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Re: keeping the old debate open...

2002-07-11 Thread Kevin . Bedell 





> just a question about how open-source projects are managed at
> apache's : how do you know you run out of bugs to fix ? what's the way
the
> projects are tested ? thanks, since my boss wonders about open-source and
> fears it a bit...

One of fundamental advantages of Open Source is that finding bugs generally
occurs much faster. Plus, as a user you have direct access to the bug
tracking system (bugzilla, in this case at
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/ ).

There are currently 90 open bugs for Struts. How do I know this? I just
looked - it's on-line for everyone to see. If you find a bug, you can add
one yourself and someone with appropriate rights in bugzilla will have to
address it before it dissapears - it's an extremely 'open book' approach
that no vendor would dream of giving you. I've worked for software
companies and we would NEVER have opened our bug lists - our competitors
would have printed them out and used them against us in sales calls.

Eric Raymond, in his essay "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" says that ``Given
enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.'' And, "at least, that they turn
shallow pretty quickly when exposed to a thousand eager co-developers
pounding on every single new release".

This is why Linux is more stable than NT and Apache dominates the web
server market - it's not because it's free, it's because it's BETTER and
FREER of BUGS. If I were your boss, I'd worry more about the quality of
commercial software than I would about open source.


If your manager is concerned about using Open Source becuase of software
quality, then get them a copy of Eric's book: The Cathedral and the Bazaar
- it's a very short and easy read.


The Cathedral and the Bazaar is available at either:

   on-line free:   http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/

  - or -

  from Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596001088/qid=1026397260/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-4271210-7048648


The discussion about Open Source projects and debugging is at:

  http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/x147.html


Best of luck,

Kevin




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Re: keeping the old debate open...

2002-07-11 Thread Ted Husted 

Oops, Craig McClana
---^han


Ted Husted wrote:
> 
> We run out of bugs to fix when everything in Bugzilla is marked
> resolved, later, or won't fix. =:0)
> 
> We publish the current development version each and very night. Many
> developers download this and try it against their own products, which is
> where the bug reports come from.
> 
> We do have a few unit tests of our own, but our real test-bed are the
> thousands of developers who monitor this list and test it for
> themselves.
> 
> Absolutely everything we do is out in the open. There are no private
> developer lists. If you, or your boss, or anyone want's to know what's
> going on, they only need to follow the DEV list.
> 
> At any point in time, the worst-case scenario is that you can adopt the
> source into your own product and go your own way. So there's nothing to
> lose, and several world-class developers like Craig McClana to gain.
> 
> -T.
> 
> Barbara Post wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ted, just a question about how open-source projects are managed at
> > apache's : how do you know you run out of bugs to fix ? what's the way the
> > projects are tested ? thanks, since my boss wonders about open-source and
> > fears it a bit...
> >
> > we must ensure we know exactly what we can rely upon or not (how solid can
> > o-s be).
> > although another project used Cocoon1 (mmh, who decided and what are the
> > bugs due to cocoon specifically, dunno), now we may use Struts for this one.
> >
> > thanks a lot Guru :-)
> >
> > Babs
> > - Original Message -
> > From: Ted Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 2:20 PM
> > Subject: Re: Struts 1.1 Final - Just asking!
> >
> > > Anyone's guestimation is *not* going to be worth the pixels they are
> > > published on, and it's pointless to disappoint people with speculations.
> > >
> > > The honest truth is that we ship when we run out of bugs to fix. Since
> > > we don't know what bugs people will find in the upcoming beta 2 release,
> > > we can't tell how long they will take to fix. I wish there were a
> > > better answer, but that's how it actually works, and there's no point in
> > > misleading anyone.
> > >
> > > The one and only answer is always going to be:
> > >
> > > http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/kickstart.html#release
> > >
> > > You know we're getting very close when go from a "beta" to a "release
> > > candidate", but the next release, beta 2, is not a release candidate.
> > > Yet.
> > >
> > > Choosing between a Jakarta beta and the stable release is like
> > > buying a yacht. If you have to ask, use the stable release =:0)
> > >
> > > -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
> > > -- Java Web Development with Struts
> > > -- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
> > > -- Web: http://husted.com/about/services
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Eddie Bush wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Obviously, the "standard answer" when someone asks for an ETA is: "When
> > > > it gets here."  I respect that - I do.  It would be helpful to me though
> > > > if someone could give a "very rough" guestimation of when that possibly
> > > > might be =)  I won't hold you to it - I know it's a "moving target".
> > > >  I'm simply curious.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks so much!
> > > >
> > > > Eddie Bush
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > 
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > 
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > 
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > 
> > >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
> -- Java Web Development with Struts
> -- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
> -- Web: http://husted.com/about/services
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
-- Java Web Development with Struts
-- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
-- Web: http://husted.com/about/services

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Re: keeping the old debate open...

2002-07-11 Thread Ted Husted 

We run out of bugs to fix when everything in Bugzilla is marked
resolved, later, or won't fix. =:0)

We publish the current development version each and very night. Many
developers download this and try it against their own products, which is
where the bug reports come from. 

We do have a few unit tests of our own, but our real test-bed are the
thousands of developers who monitor this list and test it for
themselves.

Absolutely everything we do is out in the open. There are no private
developer lists. If you, or your boss, or anyone want's to know what's
going on, they only need to follow the DEV list. 

At any point in time, the worst-case scenario is that you can adopt the
source into your own product and go your own way. So there's nothing to
lose, and several world-class developers like Craig McClana to gain. 

-T.

Barbara Post wrote:
> 
> Hi Ted, just a question about how open-source projects are managed at
> apache's : how do you know you run out of bugs to fix ? what's the way the
> projects are tested ? thanks, since my boss wonders about open-source and
> fears it a bit...
> 
> we must ensure we know exactly what we can rely upon or not (how solid can
> o-s be).
> although another project used Cocoon1 (mmh, who decided and what are the
> bugs due to cocoon specifically, dunno), now we may use Struts for this one.
> 
> thanks a lot Guru :-)
> 
> Babs
> - Original Message -
> From: Ted Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 2:20 PM
> Subject: Re: Struts 1.1 Final - Just asking!
> 
> > Anyone's guestimation is *not* going to be worth the pixels they are
> > published on, and it's pointless to disappoint people with speculations.
> >
> > The honest truth is that we ship when we run out of bugs to fix. Since
> > we don't know what bugs people will find in the upcoming beta 2 release,
> > we can't tell how long they will take to fix. I wish there were a
> > better answer, but that's how it actually works, and there's no point in
> > misleading anyone.
> >
> > The one and only answer is always going to be:
> >
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/kickstart.html#release
> >
> > You know we're getting very close when go from a "beta" to a "release
> > candidate", but the next release, beta 2, is not a release candidate.
> > Yet.
> >
> > Choosing between a Jakarta beta and the stable release is like
> > buying a yacht. If you have to ask, use the stable release =:0)
> >
> > -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
> > -- Java Web Development with Struts
> > -- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
> > -- Web: http://husted.com/about/services
> >
> >
> >
> > Eddie Bush wrote:
> > >
> > > Obviously, the "standard answer" when someone asks for an ETA is: "When
> > > it gets here."  I respect that - I do.  It would be helpful to me though
> > > if someone could give a "very rough" guestimation of when that possibly
> > > might be =)  I won't hold you to it - I know it's a "moving target".
> > >  I'm simply curious.
> > >
> > > Thanks so much!
> > >
> > > Eddie Bush
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> 
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> 
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> 
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> 
> >
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
-- Java Web Development with Struts
-- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
-- Web: http://husted.com/about/services

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