RE: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
Peter, -Original Message- From: Peter A. J. Pilgrim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 8:28 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs? Chappell, Simon P wrote: snip All Well I graduated from South Bank University (London, England) in 1990 plum right into the recession as if was called then (I haven't quite figured out what they are calling this one now. Which is it Downturn, Slow-jam, Dotcom Bubble -Burst, and plain old recession?). I had the same problem as Simon. A new graduate without experience, but how d'y'a get experience in the first place? The way that I got it was through a sandwich course. Two academic years, then a year in industry and then wrap it up with one more academic year. The best thing is that the University took responsibility for finding placements. (Plymouth University did used to be a Polytechnic, hence the sandwich style courses.) That year of exeperience REALLY helped, when the rubber hit the road. My problem was eventually solved also by word-of-month, favour for a favour, and otherwise also known as networking. Eventually I left the country of green meadows, and green fields. I left for Germany (Deutschland) of all places. Another with green pasture and more romantic castles (Schlosse). I have already followed Simon's advice and built an online CV. Wonderful. I know that mine takes a lot of hits from recruiters, judging from the number of emails I get. It is very strange you think of doing this sort of thing when you are in a proper job that lasts 10 hours a day, but you never get around to it. I always wanted to master Macromedia Flash, and get back in the design and arty stuff. So eventually I tackled it. Unfortunately this time it will be harder for me to move anywhere in the country let alone move abroad, especially when you have a mortgage and property. Been there, done that!I have lived in the U.S. of A. for over eight years now and only managed to sell my house in England (Wiltshire :-) two years ago. That means that I was paying mortgage on a house that was not even in the same country as me for six years. I found an estate agent (Realtor in yankee speak) that would take care of renting it out and I just bit the bullet and got very good at transfering money between England and America. Damn! I knew I should sent that agent (local recruiter) a box of cava or fruity wines last Xmas. Hot Damn!! Hey, whatever it takes. (Landsend.com eh? He He He. A piece of England in the US of A) Yup, it amuses me too. Even more so, because I actually hail from Cornwall and have been to the REAL Land's End a number of times. Although, I think that the Lizard Point is prettier. -- Peter Pilgrim ServerSide Java Specialist snip Simon - Simon P. Chappell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Java Programming Specialist www.landsend.com Lands' End, Inc. (608) 935-4526 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
--- Peter A. J. Pilgrim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Davide Bruzzone wrote: Khalid, It's real pity that the banks have had to let go a lot of good people. In the UK at least they had the money and sometimes the innovation to persue the latest technologies. Last year I got my last employer to look seriously at open source and I had to influence not to re-invent their own MVC implementation. This is how I got into bed, so to speak, with Struts. Peter You are absolutely right. The big financial institution in the city do have the money and the where-with-it-all to invest in a new technologies. I dont necessarily want another banking job at all. I am happy to look for another vertical sector. Are you saying that only big banks want to develop J2EE applications? I might possibly believe it. I have looked at the job sites today and apparently only the investment banks are offering J2EE jobs. The money is there but no one wants the responsibility to employ the wrong guy. So therefore the list of required skills is stringent and bloody tough, and if you don't have it, then you don't have it. I am sure it is the very same in the USA too. I did a similar persuasion exercise at my last place. Open source is taking a hold, but moving very slowly. It is all about saving money and I think a lot of the managers are finally getting convinced about running Linux server rather Sun Solaris boxes. It is just too bad I had leave to see the horizon. As for me I think that I will have to look beyond core J2EE development maybe go back to even RMI and Applet programming which would be horrible just to make ends meet. Hey! May be we can swap leads off-line. What do you think? /Khalid/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-help;jakarta.apache.org
RE: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
I have seen a lot of newspaper adverts with improve your CV guaranteed for £100. I would go to a graduate recruitment fair if indeed you are recent graduate (2nd jobber). Obviously that precludes me, but going to proper professional consultant can work wonders. Fortunately most financial city instituations put that sort of thing together for the employees that are getting the boot, at least to politically soften the wounds. You would be well advised to seek their help, because any help helps just that little bit. Yes. My former employer sent us to just such a class (It was optional, but as you said, if its available, take it), and in my case it helped *a lot*. Mind you, the only reason it helped a lot was that the instructor a) gave a crap, b) had been through two layoffs himself, and c) was really good at what he did. The other career consultant to whom I was assigned (he was supposed to review my resume, etc.) was absolutely useless. I don't know if its possible, but before parting with any money, try to determine what you're actually going to get in return. The quality does vary. Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-help;jakarta.apache.org
Re: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
Khalid Aslan wrote: Peter You are absolutely right. The big financial institution in the city do have the money and the where-with-it-all to invest in a new technologies. I dont necessarily want another banking job at all. I am happy to look for another vertical sector. Are you saying that only big banks want to develop J2EE applications? I might possibly believe it. I have looked at the job sites today and apparently only the investment banks are offering J2EE jobs. Hi Khalid Worst still the same jobs are appearing up to three times a day on the same job server. Here an example for an Integration Development Manager http://www.it.jobserve.com/jobserve/JobDetail.asp?jobid=B2491F3D8FB8CA06 http://www.it.jobserve.com/jobserve/JobDetail.asp?jobid=372CB244A66D4378 http://www.it.jobserve.com/jobserve/JobDetail.asp?jobid=D508EBCBB03B763E Notice the same different servlet parameter parameter value jobid all reference to exact same job specification from the agency E-volution Recruitment Solution Ltd. So what the hell. It's bloody mad, I tell you. I did a similar persuasion exercise at my last place. Open source is taking a hold, but moving very slowly. It is all about saving money and I think a lot of the managers are finally getting convinced about running Linux server rather Sun Solaris boxes. It is just too bad I had leave to see the horizon. As for me I think that I will have to look beyond core J2EE development maybe go back to even RMI and Applet programming which would be horrible just to make ends meet. Well hang on to horses yet. What goes around usually comes back around at some point in the future. Eventually the developers will become the senior developers, and the senior developers become the project leaders and lead architects. So remember this depressing experience and learn from it, treat it like pinch of salt. Hey! May be we can swap leads off-line. What do you think? Yeh, why not? No problems. -- Peter Pilgrim ServerSide Java Specialist My on-line resume and for interview videos about myself, J2EE Open Source, Struts and Expresso. || \\=== `` http://www.xenonsoft.demon.co.uk/no-it-striker.html '' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-help;jakarta.apache.org
Re: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
Khalid Aslan wrote: Hey! May be we can swap leads off-line. What do you think? /Khalid/ 1) Khalid Have you ever try to contact any of the Java User Groups? ``http://servlet.java.sun.com/jugs/europe/gbr'' 2) All Jobbers Worth trying out JUGs on the Sun site for networking contact me thinks. -- Peter Pilgrim ServerSide Java Specialist My on-line resume and for interview videos about myself, J2EE Open Source, Struts and Expresso. || \\=== `` http://www.xenonsoft.demon.co.uk/no-it-striker.html '' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-help;jakarta.apache.org
RE: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
You certainly need to be flexible these days too. Agreed... While I was unemployed, I met a guy who told me he only wanted to do Linux-based C++ programming. He then wondered aloud why he'd been unemployed for a year... Domino apps dev. I hadnt done Java before (though I had been playing with C/C++ for years - but not in a professional capacity) and had a lot of learning to do rather quickly, - luckily learning stuff quickly is something Im very good at (saved me many times the night before an exam at uni) IMO, being able to learn new things constantly/quickly, and knowing where to go and look for the answers to the questions that you don't know the answers to is an important IT skill. Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-help;jakarta.apache.org
RE: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
You certainly need to be flexible these days too. Agreed... While I was unemployed, I met a guy who told me he only wanted to do Linux-based C++ programming. He then wondered aloud why he'd been unemployed for a year... IMO, being able to learn new things constantly/quickly, and knowing where to go and look for the answers to the questions that you don't know the answers to is an important IT skill. It would be refreshing, if employers (and especially headhunters) would recognize, if you have C/C++, Perl, Java and any number of other programming language, that it would not take you particularly long to learn a new programming language. That applies to app servers, methodologies, etc. as well. Instead, in the current job market, what employers are looking is buzzword compliance, however long ago you actually dabbled with the particular skill the clueless recruiter is looking for. If you don't have it in your resume, you get no call, no interview and definitely no job. There is NO value for skills like quick learning or any other soft skills in today's job market. This is a shame. The sarcastic me says, if you're a quick learner with not that much experience, pad your resume with every friggin buzzword you want to be working on, read some basic information on it, and then proceed to lie and cheat your way to the job. If you're lucky they won't subject you to a hardcore technical interview. Once you have the job, make sure you apply your quick learning skills... Not a particularly ethical way of getting a new job, but then I think employers who only hire cookie cutter, buzzword compliant employees would be too stupid to find out about it. -TPP -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-help;jakarta.apache.org
RE: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
Khalid, This is all just common sense really, but it helped me when I was laid off at the end of June (BTW, I was working again in five weeks, and as much as I'd like to think that I'm a rock star, I think I was monumentally lucky)... However, if it can help you or someone else on the list... I live in Colorado and as I said, I was laid off from a telecom company at the end of June... I found my new job through a Yahoo job board (specifically the Rocky Mountain Internet Users' Group Job board - which you won't care about given that you live in the UK...). Anyway, here's what I learned: - There seem to be a lot of job bots out there. My current employer didn't post the opening on the board where I found it. They posted it on Dice from where it was eventually scraped. I personally didn't have much luck with the big job sites (Monster, Dice, etc.). There didn't seem to be very many postings there, and they seemed to be fairly stale/stagnant. OTOH, smaller, more informal job boards seemed to have a steady trickle of new postings. - Keywords, keywords, keywords! My employer received 800 resumes (or for those of you across the pond, CVs) for my position. They eliminated 90% of those without even looking at them (they used keyword search software). Companies are having to do this because of the ratio of available positions to available candidates. They then did phone pre-screenings with the remaining 80 people, and eventually met about 10 of those 80 in person. The second page of my resume contains all my technical skills, and is very keyword rich. You're up against a lot of other candidates, so make sure you can get through the filtering software by including everything you know on your resume (all the acronyms, tools, etc.). - Observe protocol. You're right, its an employer's market right now, and employers can be picky, so observe all the courtesies, etc. I learned this in the so you've been shitcanned class that my previous employer most graciously sent us to after having us vacate the building in 45 minutes or less (The politically correct term was Career transition class... :-) ), and the people who interviewed me at my new employer told me that they were impressed by it. If you get an interview, send personalized thank you letters (good paper, etc.) to everyone you talk to, etc. It just helps you stand out. As I said, its all common sense, but if it helps... Best of luck... Dave -Original Message- From: Haseltine, Celeste [mailto:CHaseltine;magticket.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:58 AM To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' Subject: RE: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs? Khalid, I am assuming by across the Atlantic you are referring to the United States. The job market/outlook in the US for high tech/software/hardware is still pretty poor. There are some pockets where jobs can be found in the US, but overall, our unemployment rate nationally is still sitting just under 7%, with some harder hit local areas, such as Dallas, TX, sitting closer to 8%. That doesn't sound high until you take into consideration before the high tech job fallout in 2000, our unemployment rate was below 3%. Also, unless you are currently a green card holder or US citizen, you would need to find an employer to sponsor you for an H1-B visa, which is the US equivalent of a work permit. It's not something you can obtain yourself, you must have an employer who has agreed to hire you apply for you. Right now, few US employers are sponsoring H1-B visa applicants, due to both the higher unemployment rate, and the legal requirements an employer is required to comply with to demonstrate that no US citizen was qualified/available for the position. And that is not taking into account the heightened sensitivity many companies have to bringing non-US citizens into the US after the events of Sept 11, 2001. I guess things are pretty slow no matter where you reside now. I understand Japan's high tech area has also been hard hit, along with most of Europe. Celeste -Original Message- From: Khalid Aslan [mailto:sheik_ya_bootie;yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 12:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs? Hi y'all My name is Khalid. I was made redundant a couple weeks ago in London. I was working for a big investment bank. I was kinda looking for leads to work in London, or elsewhere in Europe maybe. I did so me Struts development several months ago for a client and want to get back to server side Java work. I had being working with Swing client side work. It is really pretty slow in the UK right now, it is not a great look, but I'm still hanging out here hoping on a rope. How is the Struts Job market holding up in across the atlantic? Is Cali still in the bottom slopes? Or is the East Coast the best place to be? rgds /Khalid/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll
RE: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
--- Davide Bruzzone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Khalid, This is all just common sense really, but it helped me when I was laid off at the end of June (BTW, I was working again in five weeks, and as much as I'd like to think that I'm a rock star, I think I was monumentally lucky)... However, if it can help you or someone else on the list... I live in Colorado and as I said, I was laid off from a telecom company at the end of June... I found my new job through a Yahoo job board (specifically the Rocky Mountain Internet Users' Group Job board - which you won't care about given that you live in the UK...). Anyway, here's what I learned: - There seem to be a lot of job bots out there. My current employer didn't post the opening on the board where I found it. They posted it on Dice from where it was eventually scraped. I personally didn't have much luck with the big job sites (Monster, Dice, etc.). There didn't seem to be very many postings there, and they seemed to be fairly stale/stagnant. OTOH, smaller, more informal job boards seemed to have a steady trickle of new postings. Hi Davide Thank you sir! I presume you are talking about DICE.com You said that you didn't find it on Dice, but it was found somewhere else. You didn't where you found the informal job boards. - Keywords, keywords, keywords! My employer received 800 resumes (or for those of you across the pond, CVs) for my position. They eliminated 90% of those without even looking at them (they used keyword search software). Companies are having to do this because of the ratio of available positions to available candidates. Bloody hell! That is a huge ratio 800 to 1! I had a suspicion about search keyword software but I didn't realize. I will definitely update my CV to be completely keyword specific. You know this is so similar to static web design with META tags. My CV is two pages long, and it is rather concise, but I have had a request from an agency a couple of weeks ago to include my technologies and buzz word keywords that increased to three pages. Most of the agents said I have good looking CV. I have had interviews with many agencies, but I got the feeling that they were just to polite sometimes. When they had me in for the interview I felt they were being a little cynical, and maybe that were trawling the web for talent. I can understand, because they are so few jobs and lots of agency trying to change the commission for the candidate who can exactly fit the required job specification. pre-screenings with the remaining 80 people, and eventually met about 10 of those 80 in person. The second page of my resume contains all my technical skills, and is very keyword rich. You're up against a lot of other candidates, so make sure you can get through the filtering software by including everything you know on your resume (all the acronyms, tools, etc.). I know of one other former colleague who has had to do a telephone interview with a contact that she had two months ago. It is very easy to get depressed, and miserable. However, I very grateful for advice. You did n't by any chance have a hand in writing this keyword search software, did you? ;-) - Observe protocol. You're right, its an employer's market right now, and employers can be picky, so observe all the courtesies, etc. I learned this in the so you've been shitcanned class that my previous employer most graciously sent us to after having us vacate the building in 45 minutes or less Oh wee! It is so sad. I was called to boardroom in our law / human resources at exactly 9:10 in the morning. They didn't even give me time to clear my desk, the f***ing b**ds! (The politically correct term was Career transition class... :-) ), and the people who interviewed me at my new employer told me that they were impressed by it. If you get an interview, send personalized thank you letters (good paper, etc.) to everyone you talk to, etc. It just helps you stand out. Yes I am English, I was born in London, my parents came from abroad. So I should be the one with the English manners and politeness ;-) As I said, its all common sense, but if it helps... Best of luck... Dave Where can I find a list of these informal job boards? And thanks again rgds /Khalid/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-help;jakarta.apache.org
RE: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
I just want to observe that I have never used a job website. I'm not saying that they don't or can't work, but I've received 100% of my employment so far from either word of mouth or using a technical recruiter. This has worked both sides of the pond. I started in the industry in 1990 when I graduated from Plymouth University (England) and I remember that you had to be thankful for anything that paid money. There was no annoying the boss back then, or you'd be picking up your P45 (pink slip for the Yankees on the list). Make friends with your local recruiters, be prepared to move anywhere in the country and be certain to have an HTML version of your CV/resume on a website. And, yes, make certain that it is FULLY BUZZWORD COMPLIENT. Simon - Simon P. Chappell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Java Programming Specialist www.landsend.com Lands' End, Inc. (608) 935-4526 -Original Message- From: Khalid Aslan [mailto:sheik_ya_bootie;yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 10:17 AM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: RE: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs? --- Davide Bruzzone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Khalid, This is all just common sense really, but it helped me when I was laid off at the end of June (BTW, I was working again in five weeks, and as much as I'd like to think that I'm a rock star, I think I was monumentally lucky)... However, if it can help you or someone else on the list... I live in Colorado and as I said, I was laid off from a telecom company at the end of June... I found my new job through a Yahoo job board (specifically the Rocky Mountain Internet Users' Group Job board - which you won't care about given that you live in the UK...). Anyway, here's what I learned: - There seem to be a lot of job bots out there. My current employer didn't post the opening on the board where I found it. They posted it on Dice from where it was eventually scraped. I personally didn't have much luck with the big job sites (Monster, Dice, etc.). There didn't seem to be very many postings there, and they seemed to be fairly stale/stagnant. OTOH, smaller, more informal job boards seemed to have a steady trickle of new postings. Hi Davide Thank you sir! I presume you are talking about DICE.com You said that you didn't find it on Dice, but it was found somewhere else. You didn't where you found the informal job boards. - Keywords, keywords, keywords! My employer received 800 resumes (or for those of you across the pond, CVs) for my position. They eliminated 90% of those without even looking at them (they used keyword search software). Companies are having to do this because of the ratio of available positions to available candidates. Bloody hell! That is a huge ratio 800 to 1! I had a suspicion about search keyword software but I didn't realize. I will definitely update my CV to be completely keyword specific. You know this is so similar to static web design with META tags. My CV is two pages long, and it is rather concise, but I have had a request from an agency a couple of weeks ago to include my technologies and buzz word keywords that increased to three pages. Most of the agents said I have good looking CV. I have had interviews with many agencies, but I got the feeling that they were just to polite sometimes. When they had me in for the interview I felt they were being a little cynical, and maybe that were trawling the web for talent. I can understand, because they are so few jobs and lots of agency trying to change the commission for the candidate who can exactly fit the required job specification. pre-screenings with the remaining 80 people, and eventually met about 10 of those 80 in person. The second page of my resume contains all my technical skills, and is very keyword rich. You're up against a lot of other candidates, so make sure you can get through the filtering software by including everything you know on your resume (all the acronyms, tools, etc.). I know of one other former colleague who has had to do a telephone interview with a contact that she had two months ago. It is very easy to get depressed, and miserable. However, I very grateful for advice. You did n't by any chance have a hand in writing this keyword search software, did you? ;-) - Observe protocol. You're right, its an employer's market right now, and employers can be picky, so observe all the courtesies, etc. I learned this in the so you've been shitcanned class that my previous employer most graciously sent us to after having us vacate the building in 45 minutes or less Oh wee! It is so sad. I was called to boardroom in our law / human resources at exactly 9:10 in the morning. They didn't even give me time to clear my desk, the f***ing b**ds! (The politically correct term was Career transition class
RE: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
Khalid, This is all just common sense really, but it helped me when I was laid off at the end of June (BTW, I was working again in five weeks, and as much as I'd like to think that I'm a rock star, I think I was monumentally lucky)... However, if it can help you or someone else on the list... I live in Colorado and as I said, I was laid off from a telecom company at the end of June... I found my new job through a Yahoo job board (specifically the Rocky Mountain Internet Users' Group Job board - which you won't care about given that you live in the UK...). Anyway, here's what I learned: - There seem to be a lot of job bots out there. My current employer didn't post the opening on the board where I found it. They posted it on Dice from where it was eventually scraped. I personally didn't have much luck with the big job sites (Monster, Dice, etc.). There didn't seem to be very many postings there, and they seemed to be fairly stale/stagnant. OTOH, smaller, more informal job boards seemed to have a steady trickle of new postings. Thank you sir! I presume you are talking about DICE.com Yes. You said that you didn't find it on Dice, but it was found somewhere else. You didn't where you found the informal job boards. Word of mouth. I started going to every career fair, Internet Chamber of Commerce meeting, other meetings where unemployed IT people would congregate, etc. I was officially unemployed for four weeks, and during that time I managed to put together quite a collection of business cards. I also had a layoff buddy (another guy from my team who was laid off when I was) with whom I exchanged information, swapped leads, etc. Its just a matter of knocking on every door you can think of. What I think really sucks are the pay sites that are preying on people who are in a situation where they don't have a lot of extra disposable income. Interestingly, although these sites claim that their Fuzzy logic, neural net, AI-based systems will find postings that you won't find anywhere else, I found this not to be true. The free teaser posting titles that the pay sites would e-mail me were exactly the same as those that I would find on the free boards. - Keywords, keywords, keywords! My employer received 800 resumes (or for those of you across the pond, CVs) for my position. They eliminated 90% of those without even looking at them (they used keyword search software). Companies are having to do this because of the ratio of available positions to available candidates. Bloody hell! That is a huge ratio 800 to 1! I had a suspicion about search keyword software but I didn't realize. I will definitely update my CV to be completely keyword specific. You know this is so similar to static web design with META tags. My CV is two pages long, and it is rather concise, but I have had a request from an agency a couple of weeks ago to include my technologies and buzz word keywords that increased to three pages. Most of the agents said I have good looking CV. I have had interviews with many agencies, but I got the feeling that they were just to polite sometimes. When they had me in for the interview I felt they were being a little cynical, and maybe that were trawling the web for talent. I can understand, because they are so few jobs and lots of agency trying to change the commission for the candidate who can exactly fit the required job specification. One of my colleagues here mentioned something that I thought was a good idea. Since resumes are supposed to be no more than two pages long, but IT people frequently have a difficult time keeping theirs that short, he said that he has one version where he adds everything that he does (Its five pages long), and one abridged two page version. And yes, Web-based resumes are a good place to put your long resume. I had even toyed with the idea of putting together a fancy Web-based resume with collapsible sections so that it could serve both purposes and could showcase my HTML skills, etc. Then I found a job and got lazy... :-/ As far as employment agencies are concerned, I found that the ones that I talked to here in the States are fairly hungry. Times are lean for them too. The problem they're having is a) There are so many candidates out there, and so many other avenues that companies and candidates can take that companies don't need them any more, and b) I found that when companies do use them, they go to multiple agencies and pit them against each other. pre-screenings with the remaining 80 people, and eventually met about 10 of those 80 in person. The second page of my resume contains all my technical skills, and is very keyword rich. You're up against a lot of other candidates, so make sure you can get through the filtering software by including everything you know on your resume (all the acronyms, tools, etc.). I know of one other former colleague who has had to do a telephone interview with a
Re: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
Well i know of a job opening in new york city. So it is not all bad - Original Message - From: Davide Bruzzone [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 12:23 PM Subject: RE: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs? Khalid, This is all just common sense really, but it helped me when I was laid off at the end of June (BTW, I was working again in five weeks, and as much as I'd like to think that I'm a rock star, I think I was monumentally lucky)... However, if it can help you or someone else on the list... I live in Colorado and as I said, I was laid off from a telecom company at the end of June... I found my new job through a Yahoo job board (specifically the Rocky Mountain Internet Users' Group Job board - which you won't care about given that you live in the UK...). Anyway, here's what I learned: - There seem to be a lot of job bots out there. My current employer didn't post the opening on the board where I found it. They posted it on Dice from where it was eventually scraped. I personally didn't have much luck with the big job sites (Monster, Dice, etc.). There didn't seem to be very many postings there, and they seemed to be fairly stale/stagnant. OTOH, smaller, more informal job boards seemed to have a steady trickle of new postings. Thank you sir! I presume you are talking about DICE.com Yes. You said that you didn't find it on Dice, but it was found somewhere else. You didn't where you found the informal job boards. Word of mouth. I started going to every career fair, Internet Chamber of Commerce meeting, other meetings where unemployed IT people would congregate, etc. I was officially unemployed for four weeks, and during that time I managed to put together quite a collection of business cards. I also had a layoff buddy (another guy from my team who was laid off when I was) with whom I exchanged information, swapped leads, etc. Its just a matter of knocking on every door you can think of. What I think really sucks are the pay sites that are preying on people who are in a situation where they don't have a lot of extra disposable income. Interestingly, although these sites claim that their Fuzzy logic, neural net, AI-based systems will find postings that you won't find anywhere else, I found this not to be true. The free teaser posting titles that the pay sites would e-mail me were exactly the same as those that I would find on the free boards. - Keywords, keywords, keywords! My employer received 800 resumes (or for those of you across the pond, CVs) for my position. They eliminated 90% of those without even looking at them (they used keyword search software). Companies are having to do this because of the ratio of available positions to available candidates. Bloody hell! That is a huge ratio 800 to 1! I had a suspicion about search keyword software but I didn't realize. I will definitely update my CV to be completely keyword specific. You know this is so similar to static web design with META tags. My CV is two pages long, and it is rather concise, but I have had a request from an agency a couple of weeks ago to include my technologies and buzz word keywords that increased to three pages. Most of the agents said I have good looking CV. I have had interviews with many agencies, but I got the feeling that they were just to polite sometimes. When they had me in for the interview I felt they were being a little cynical, and maybe that were trawling the web for talent. I can understand, because they are so few jobs and lots of agency trying to change the commission for the candidate who can exactly fit the required job specification. One of my colleagues here mentioned something that I thought was a good idea. Since resumes are supposed to be no more than two pages long, but IT people frequently have a difficult time keeping theirs that short, he said that he has one version where he adds everything that he does (Its five pages long), and one abridged two page version. And yes, Web-based resumes are a good place to put your long resume. I had even toyed with the idea of putting together a fancy Web-based resume with collapsible sections so that it could serve both purposes and could showcase my HTML skills, etc. Then I found a job and got lazy... :-/ As far as employment agencies are concerned, I found that the ones that I talked to here in the States are fairly hungry. Times are lean for them too. The problem they're having is a) There are so many candidates out there, and so many other avenues that companies and candidates can take that companies don't need them any more, and b) I found that when companies do use them, they go to multiple agencies and pit them against each other. pre-screenings with the remaining 80 people, and eventually met about 10 of those 80 in person. The second page of my resume contains all my technical skills, and is very keyword rich. You're up against
RE: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
Its only bad if you're one of the thousands of people applying for it. -Original Message- From: Daniel Jaffa [mailto:jaffad;courtinnovation.org] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 12:09 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs? Well i know of a job opening in new york city. So it is not all bad -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-help;jakarta.apache.org
Re: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
Chappell, Simon P wrote: I just want to observe that I have never used a job website. I'm not saying that they don't or can't work, but I've received 100% of my employment so far from either word of mouth or using a technical recruiter. This has worked both sides of the pond. I started in the industry in 1990 when I graduated from Plymouth University (England) and I remember that you had to be thankful for anything that paid money. There was no annoying the boss back then, or you'd be picking up your P45 (pink slip for the Yankees on the list). Make friends with your local recruiters, be prepared to move anywhere in the country and be certain to have an HTML version of your CV/resume on a website. And, yes, make certain that it is FULLY BUZZWORD COMPLIENT. Simon - Simon P. Chappell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Java Programming Specialist www.landsend.com Lands' End, Inc. (608) 935-4526 All Well I graduated from South Bank University (London, England) in 1990 plum right into the recession as if was called then (I haven't quite figured out what they are calling this one now. Which is it Downturn, Slow-jam, Dotcom Bubble -Burst, and plain old recession?). I had the same problem as Simon. A new graduate without experience, but how d'y'a get experience in the first place? My problem was eventually solved also by word-of-month, favour for a favour, and otherwise also known as networking. Eventually I left the country of green meadows, and green fields. I left for Germany (Deutschland) of all places. Another with green pasture and more romantic castles (Schlosse). I have already followed Simon's advice and built an online CV. It is very strange you think of doing this sort of thing when you are in a proper job that lasts 10 hours a day, but you never get around to it. I always wanted to master Macromedia Flash, and get back in the design and arty stuff. So eventually I tackled it. Unfortunately this time it will be harder for me to move anywhere in the country let alone move abroad, especially when you have a mortgage and property. Damn! I knew I should sent that agent (local recruiter) a box of cava or fruity wines last Xmas. Hot Damn!! (Landsend.com eh? He He He. A piece of England in the US of A) -- Peter Pilgrim ServerSide Java Specialist My on-line resume and for interview videos about myself, J2EE Open Source, Struts and Expresso. || \\=== `` http://www.xenonsoft.demon.co.uk/no-it-striker.html '' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-help;jakarta.apache.org
Re: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
Davide Bruzzone wrote: Khalid, Word of mouth. I started going to every career fair, Internet Chamber of Commerce meeting, other meetings where unemployed IT people would congregate, etc. I was officially unemployed for four weeks, and during that time I managed to put together quite a collection of business cards. I also had a layoff buddy (another guy from my team who was laid off when I was) with whom I exchanged information, swapped leads, etc. Its just a matter of knocking on every door you can think of. What I think really sucks are the pay sites that are preying on people who are in a situation where they don't have a lot of extra disposable income. Interestingly, although these sites claim that their Fuzzy logic, neural net, AI-based systems will find postings that you won't find anywhere else, I found this not to be true. The free teaser posting titles that the pay sites would e-mail me were exactly the same as those that I would find on the free boards. I personally never seen such pay sites in the UK, and like you I would not recommend them. I have seen a lot of newspaper adverts with improve your CV guaranteed for £100. I would go to a graduate recruitment fair if indeed you are recent graduate (2nd jobber). Obviously that precludes me, but going to proper professional consultant can work wonders. Fortunately most financial city instituations put that sort of thing together for the employees that are getting the boot, at least to politically soften the wounds. You would be well advised to seek their help, because any help helps just that little bit. Bloody hell! That is a huge ratio 800 to 1! I had a suspicion about search keyword software but I didn't realize. I will definitely update my CV to be completely keyword specific. You know this is so similar to static web design with META tags. /// Ditto, there too many candidates and too many agencies. Simple economics will tell you that many agencies are going to fold over if this recession lasts longer or if they dont go bankrupt they will taken over byo the bigger fishes. I think I would give my right arm to be in MA (Mergers and Acquistions) at this precise moment. /// It's real pity that the banks have had to let go a lot of good people. In the UK at least they had the money and sometimes the innovation to persue the latest technologies. Last year I got my last employer to look seriously at open source and I had to influence not to re-invent their own MVC implementation. This is how I got into bed, so to speak, with Struts. It was tough but eventually they were talking Log4J but not quite JBoss. If it is indeed truth that alot of the IT project budgets especially the e-commerce projects were suddenly cut , suspended, or postponed, then we are living in lack-lustre time in the IT world, at least in England that is. Many businesses are burning the candle oil to survive, so hence the reason that recruitment for J2EE is so tough. The money is there but no one wants the responsibility to employ the wrong guy. So therefore the list of required skills is stringent and bloody tough, and if you don't have it, then you don't have it. I am sure it is the very same in the USA too. -- Peter Pilgrim ServerSide Java Specialist My on-line resume and for interview videos about myself, J2EE Open Source, Struts and Expresso. || \\=== `` http://www.xenonsoft.demon.co.uk/no-it-striker.html '' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-help;jakarta.apache.org
RE: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
Id have to agree with the comments about word of mouth vs jobsites. When I moved here (which was the reason for giving up a very nice 9-5 programming job (they do exist! - just rare)) I had a hard time finding work and tried all the jobsites but they werent much use. Didnt help that Id arrived in the middle of the worst recession since independence. Hardly any jobs advertised and I didnt have many buzzwords on my resume at the time (2 yrs exp only at the time). (Also didnt help that most jobs were for citizens/PRs only). Got my job through word of mouth in the end. You certainly need to be flexible these days too. In my case my skillset was Domino apps dev. I hadnt done Java before (though I had been playing with C/C++ for years - but not in a professional capacity) and had a lot of learning to do rather quickly, - luckily learning stuff quickly is something Im very good at (saved me many times the night before an exam at uni) . Hehe Simon's comment about having to be prepared to move anywhere in the country amuses me. I have to travel something like halfway across the country to get to work every morning and again every night... Mind you thats only about 20km each way. Small country. :-) The recruitment agencies here are in general distinctly less than impressive. Not very professional at all, very little understanding of IT, and most of them make lawyers and used-car salesmen look like saints. Ive seen adds for jobs requiring things like 10years J2EE experience (Umm. Yeh sure). The usual advert these days seems to be along the lines of MUST HAVE min of 5yrs VB, J2EE, .Net, SAP, HTML, Java and JavaScript, SQL Server, DB2, DB3, COBOL. C/C++ experience an advantage. $1.5 -2.5 k/month. Citizen or PR only. Must speak Mandarin. What I reckon about all the buzzwords they require is that half the time people dont know all that stuff they put on their resume at all, and so instead of employing someone who knows everything, companies end up with smooth talking liars who know JS (and no I dont mean JavasScript ;-). While that is a great qualification for sales it is somewhat less than optimal for a development position. At the company I work however things are a refreshingly different - people applying for a technical position tend to get a very thorough technical interrogation (almost a verbal exam!) conducted by other developers which is how we have managed to filter out all the crappy applicants and probably explains why a buzzword poor, knowledge rich applicant like myself had a chance! -Original Message- From: Peter A. J. Pilgrim [mailto:peterp;xenonsoft.demon.co.uk] Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 10:50 To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs? Davide Bruzzone wrote: Khalid, Word of mouth. I started going to every career fair, Internet Chamber of Commerce meeting, other meetings where unemployed IT people would congregate, etc. I was officially unemployed for four weeks, and during that time I managed to put together quite a collection of business cards. I also had a layoff buddy (another guy from my team who was laid off when I was) with whom I exchanged information, swapped leads, etc. Its just a matter of knocking on every door you can think of. What I think really sucks are the pay sites that are preying on people who are in a situation where they don't have a lot of extra disposable income. Interestingly, although these sites claim that their Fuzzy logic, neural net, AI-based systems will find postings that you won't find anywhere else, I found this not to be true. The free teaser posting titles that the pay sites would e-mail me were exactly the same as those that I would find on the free boards. I personally never seen such pay sites in the UK, and like you I would not recommend them. I have seen a lot of newspaper adverts with improve your CV guaranteed for £100. I would go to a graduate recruitment fair if indeed you are recent graduate (2nd jobber). Obviously that precludes me, but going to proper professional consultant can work wonders. Fortunately most financial city instituations put that sort of thing together for the employees that are getting the boot, at least to politically soften the wounds. You would be well advised to seek their help, because any help helps just that little bit. Bloody hell! That is a huge ratio 800 to 1! I had a suspicion about search keyword software but I didn't realize. I will definitely update my CV to be completely keyword specific. You know this is so similar to static web design with META tags. /// Ditto, there too many candidates and too many agencies. Simple economics will tell you that many agencies are going to fold over if this recession lasts longer or if they dont go bankrupt they will taken over byo the bigger fishes. I think I would give my right arm to be in MA (Mergers and Acquistions) at this precise moment. /// It's real pity that the banks have had to let go a lot of good
RE: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
Khalid, I am assuming by across the Atlantic you are referring to the United States. The job market/outlook in the US for high tech/software/hardware is still pretty poor. There are some pockets where jobs can be found in the US, but overall, our unemployment rate nationally is still sitting just under 7%, with some harder hit local areas, such as Dallas, TX, sitting closer to 8%. That doesn't sound high until you take into consideration before the high tech job fallout in 2000, our unemployment rate was below 3%. Also, unless you are currently a green card holder or US citizen, you would need to find an employer to sponsor you for an H1-B visa, which is the US equivalent of a work permit. It's not something you can obtain yourself, you must have an employer who has agreed to hire you apply for you. Right now, few US employers are sponsoring H1-B visa applicants, due to both the higher unemployment rate, and the legal requirements an employer is required to comply with to demonstrate that no US citizen was qualified/available for the position. And that is not taking into account the heightened sensitivity many companies have to bringing non-US citizens into the US after the events of Sept 11, 2001. I guess things are pretty slow no matter where you reside now. I understand Japan's high tech area has also been hard hit, along with most of Europe. Celeste -Original Message- From: Khalid Aslan [mailto:sheik_ya_bootie;yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 12:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs? Hi y'all My name is Khalid. I was made redundant a couple weeks ago in London. I was working for a big investment bank. I was kinda looking for leads to work in London, or elsewhere in Europe maybe. I did so me Struts development several months ago for a client and want to get back to server side Java work. I had being working with Swing client side work. It is really pretty slow in the UK right now, it is not a great look, but I'm still hanging out here hoping on a rope. How is the Struts Job market holding up in across the atlantic? Is Cali still in the bottom slopes? Or is the East Coast the best place to be? rgds /Khalid/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-help;jakarta.apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-help;jakarta.apache.org
Re: [OT] Where can I find a Struts / J2EE Jobs?
Haseltine, Celeste wrote: Khalid, I am assuming by across the Atlantic you are referring to the United States. All Here in London, England it is really slow as well. The needle is favours the employers right now rather than a typical candidate. Unfortunately employers want 10 different criteria before they call you up for interview plus another magic ability or so. There aren't many people I think that going to fulfil an over-stringent list of requirements. The job market/outlook in the US for high tech/software/hardware is still pretty poor. There are some pockets where jobs can be found in the US, but overall, our unemployment rate nationally is still sitting just under 7%, with some harder hit local areas, such as Dallas, TX, sitting closer to 8%. That doesn't sound high until you take into consideration before the high tech job fallout in 2000, our unemployment rate was below 3%. In England in the 1980's we reached 3 million unemployed, which is about 10% from a population of 62 million with 30 million adults of employable age working. The unemployment figure I think is much lower today, around 5% I used to work for investment bank also in the city, and as you aware a lot of the people who used to work for big banks are not or will not claim any social security benefits. So the true figures are probably higher especially in London. Also, unless you are currently a green card holder or US citizen, you would need to find an employer to sponsor you for an H1-B visa, which is the US equivalent of a work permit. It's not something you can obtain yourself, you must have an employer who has agreed to hire you apply for you. Right now, few US employers are sponsoring H1-B visa applicants, due to both the higher unemployment rate, and the legal requirements an employer is required to comply with to demonstrate that no US citizen was qualified/available for the position. And that is not taking into account the heightened sensitivity many companies have to bringing non-US citizens into the US after the events of Sept 11, 2001. Ditto over here in this country. Except a lot of companies are doing something nasty. There are relocating call centres to India, or bringest India contractor over to England. I am sure people will have their own view on this policy of saving exorbitant monies, but it remains to seen if the number of professional developers is going down in the long town. If the trend is the farm out software development to third world countries then we are in trouble, some of us. Another trend is wholesale outsourcing of IT division, I read today www.efinancialnews.com that JP Morgan UK is out sourcing to IBM Consulting UK and I think so is Deutsche Bank and Dresdner. I guess things are pretty slow no matter where you reside now. I understand Japan's high tech area has also been hard hit, along with most of Europe. Celeste -Original Message- From: Khalid Aslan [mailto:sheik_ya_bootie;yahoo.co.uk] Hi y'all My name is Khalid. I was made redundant a couple weeks ago in London. I was working for a big investment bank. I was kinda looking for leads to work in London, or elsewhere in Europe maybe. Have you tried the usual suspects? Computer Weekly www.cwjobs.co.uk Technojobs www.technojobs.co.uk Monster www.monster.co.uk --snip-- rgds /Khalid/ PS: Good luck to everyone -- Peter Pilgrim ServerSide Java Specialist My on-line resume and for interview videos about myself, J2EE Open Source, Struts and Expresso. || \\=== `` http://www.xenonsoft.demon.co.uk/no-it-striker.html '' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-help;jakarta.apache.org
