RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?
As for whether EJBs is going to be required in the near future for you to get a job, who's to say? Sadly, companies are very biased towards people who don't have specific product experience in many cases. Don't take this the wrong way but EJB's are not all that difficult. I have read a book on them and tried some things with the reference implementation. No big deal. So you have a home and a remote interface. So you have session beans (our struts Java beans are basically the same thing), entity beans (We wrote a bunch of db-bind classes to be used within our struts application to perform this) and message beans (I used JMS in cases to simulate message beans). Ok... So why do so many companies discredit individuals who lack a specific product experience even if they have decent OO skills? :-) A friend of ours who has done EJB for a year says EJB's are very easy. What's difficult is understanding how they all work together. But that's OO and not EJB. I guess since this is an Employer's market (at least in the Phoenix and Denver area), they can put tight strict requirements around. Heck, we'd love it if our employer would buy an App Server but they won't so we're using Struts since it's free. But we've found out that it's very powerful and very easy to work with. thanks for your insight... Theron -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?
I obviously missed part of this discussion -- a negative side effect of trying to do my job while keeping up with this list. And I don't have a lot of time to respond to this fully. However, I find it necessary to disagree with the contention that JavaBeans are Session Beans, DAO classes are Entity Beans, and JMS is Message Beans. What I think you've missed by this over-simplification is the intended role of the EJB container in providing services and capabilities that you would otherwise be developing yourself: transactions, security, resource connectivity (e.g. Naming, Mail, Database), distribution, failover, caching, scaling, and declaritive configuration. Could you write these? Sure. Would use use available specifications and implementations of JDBC, JTA, JTS, JNDI, JavaMail, etc. You bet. But that is exactly what the specification is about -- ensuring a choice of robust compliant container implementations which can be used to host your application components. And while EJBs aren't necessarily the hardest thing to ever come along in application development, I wouldn't so easily dismiss them. There is a _lot_ to know if one is to make effective use of the technology. Perhaps a re-reading of some of the J2EE docs, including the J2EE Tutorial and the Patterns section of the BluePrints, will emphasize the breadth and depth of the technology. That is, if you are interested in learning more. The question ultimately isn't Struts vs. EJB but whether you intend to construct using Struts with EJB or Struts without EJB. Both are possible. Both are valid. Both have pros and cons. Each may be a valid (or invalid) architectural decision depending on the problem and environment. Best regards, Jim Cakalic -Original Message- From: Kousek, Theron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 11:18 AM To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' Subject: RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts? As for whether EJBs is going to be required in the near future for you to get a job, who's to say? Sadly, companies are very biased towards people who don't have specific product experience in many cases. Don't take this the wrong way but EJB's are not all that difficult. I have read a book on them and tried some things with the reference implementation. No big deal. So you have a home and a remote interface. So you have session beans (our struts Java beans are basically the same thing), entity beans (We wrote a bunch of db-bind classes to be used within our struts application to perform this) and message beans (I used JMS in cases to simulate message beans). Ok... So why do so many companies discredit individuals who lack a specific product experience even if they have decent OO skills? :-) A friend of ours who has done EJB for a year says EJB's are very easy. What's difficult is understanding how they all work together. But that's OO and not EJB. I guess since this is an Employer's market (at least in the Phoenix and Denver area), they can put tight strict requirements around. Heck, we'd love it if our employer would buy an App Server but they won't so we're using Struts since it's free. But we've found out that it's very powerful and very easy to work with. thanks for your insight... Theron -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?
Heck, we'd love it if our employer would buy an App Server but they won't so we're using Struts since it's free. But we've found out that it's very powerful and very easy to work with. Struts is cool, eh? If you want to use a free app server, check out www.jboss.org It's open-source, fast as hell, infinitely configurable, deployment is simplicity itself, and you can download an install zip with Tomcat already fully integrated. You can also configure it use your preferred JSP engine/web server. JBoss's auto-deployer will take an EAR file, deploy the EJB jar file(s) within it in its EJB container, and deploy the war file(s) contained within it to the integrated web server, faster than you can say No way!. It support runtime re-deployment of EJBs and uses a no-compilation .class file generation mechanism to generate the necessary container-specific EJB stub skeleton classes (very fast). You can deploy 'vanilla' EJB jars, or customize them with JBoss-specific deployment descriptors, your choice. Compare THAT with Weblogic, or, horror of horrors, WebSphere. b.t.w, I have tested direct client integration (not web-based) using EJBs with Weblogic, WebSphere, JBoss, and IPlanet, and JBoss wins hands down in all categories, except for clustering, which is where Weblogic shines. Porting from JBoss to another server is also simplicity itself, since you can use generic EJB jars for deployment in JBoss, none of this app server-specific required crap you have to do with the others. cheers, Joe Barefoot plug from JBoss's site: 'JBoss beat out BEA and IBM to sweep the JavaWorld Editors' Choice 2002 Award for Best Java Application Server. JBoss stopped being an application server long time ago -- it is now officially a phenomenon, says ECA judge Humphrey Sheil. Discover for yourself why JBoss gets more monthly downloads than any other app-server.' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?
Joseph, Have you done any testing against HP Application Server? It is also free. I would be interested in any comments that you may have! Robert -Original Message- From: Joseph Barefoot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tue, April 16, 2002 11:29 AM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts? Heck, we'd love it if our employer would buy an App Server but they won't so we're using Struts since it's free. But we've found out that it's very powerful and very easy to work with. Struts is cool, eh? If you want to use a free app server, check out www.jboss.org It's open-source, fast as hell, infinitely configurable, deployment is simplicity itself, and you can download an install zip with Tomcat already fully integrated. You can also configure it use your preferred JSP engine/web server. JBoss's auto-deployer will take an EAR file, deploy the EJB jar file(s) within it in its EJB container, and deploy the war file(s) contained within it to the integrated web server, faster than you can say No way!. It support runtime re-deployment of EJBs and uses a no-compilation .class file generation mechanism to generate the necessary container-specific EJB stub skeleton classes (very fast). You can deploy 'vanilla' EJB jars, or customize them with JBoss-specific deployment descriptors, your choice. Compare THAT with Weblogic, or, horror of horrors, WebSphere. b.t.w, I have tested direct client integration (not web-based) using EJBs with Weblogic, WebSphere, JBoss, and IPlanet, and JBoss wins hands down in all categories, except for clustering, which is where Weblogic shines. Porting from JBoss to another server is also simplicity itself, since you can use generic EJB jars for deployment in JBoss, none of this app server-specific required crap you have to do with the others. cheers, Joe Barefoot plug from JBoss's site: 'JBoss beat out BEA and IBM to sweep the JavaWorld Editors' Choice 2002 Award for Best Java Application Server. JBoss stopped being an application server long time ago -- it is now officially a phenomenon, says ECA judge Humphrey Sheil. Discover for yourself why JBoss gets more monthly downloads than any other app-server.' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?
Subject: Re: Struts vs EJB, thoughts? From: Vic Cekvenich [EMAIL PROTECTED] === EJBs, as I have said before sometimes have negative impact on design, productivity and performance. SHURTLEFF,ROBERT (HP-FtCollins,ex1) wrote: Joseph, Have you done any testing against HP Application Server? It is also free. I would be interested in any comments that you may have! Robert -Original Message- From: Joseph Barefoot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tue, April 16, 2002 11:29 AM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts? Heck, we'd love it if our employer would buy an App Server but they won't so we're using Struts since it's free. But we've found out that it's very powerful and very easy to work with. Struts is cool, eh? If you want to use a free app server, check out www.jboss.org It's open-source, fast as hell, infinitely configurable, deployment is simplicity itself, and you can download an install zip with Tomcat already fully integrated. You can also configure it use your preferred JSP engine/web server. JBoss's auto-deployer will take an EAR file, deploy the EJB jar file(s) within it in its EJB container, and deploy the war file(s) contained within it to the integrated web server, faster than you can say No way!. It support runtime re-deployment of EJBs and uses a no-compilation .class file generation mechanism to generate the necessary container-specific EJB stub skeleton classes (very fast). You can deploy 'vanilla' EJB jars, or customize them with JBoss-specific deployment descriptors, your choice. Compare THAT with Weblogic, or, horror of horrors, WebSphere. b.t.w, I have tested direct client integration (not web-based) using EJBs with Weblogic, WebSphere, JBoss, and IPlanet, and JBoss wins hands down in all categories, except for clustering, which is where Weblogic shines. Porting from JBoss to another server is also simplicity itself, since you can use generic EJB jars for deployment in JBoss, none of this app server-specific required crap you have to do with the others. cheers, Joe Barefoot plug from JBoss's site: 'JBoss beat out BEA and IBM to sweep the JavaWorld Editors' Choice 2002 Award for Best Java Application Server. JBoss stopped being an application server long time ago -- it is now officially a phenomenon, says ECA judge Humphrey Sheil. Discover for yourself why JBoss gets more monthly downloads than any other app-server.' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?
for the last 4 months and don't mind it. I see it as a poor mans EJB. Poor man's EJB ? :-) No, EJB deals with very different problems. Also, seems like Struts is more useful for smaller companies and EJB is more suitable for large corporations. Is this pretty much a valid statement? We use STRUTS and EJBs. I think that the best approach is to use STRUTS and EJB together. Maris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?
I dont think you can directly compare Struts to EJB since both solve different problems.. but you can use EJB with Struts.. - Original Message - From: Kousek, Theron [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 5:03 PM Subject: Struts vs EJB, thoughts? Not that I am looking for a job (I am not), I have been working with struts for the last 4 months and don't mind it. I see it as a poor mans EJB. I have no EJB experience but I don't think transitioning over to EJB after working with struts as a big deal. After all, they both act on server-side beans. Yeah, EJB has entity beans and session beans but you can easily simulate both of those types of beans using JSP/Struts/tomcat. Since there's a gazillion people on the planet now that know how to program in Java, getting an EJB position will be next to impossible (I guess) if you don't have EJB experience. Companies now have so many available Java programmers to pick and choose from and are in a position to require salary cuts for existing Java programmers on staff due to the plethoria of Java developers available to work who would be willing to work for less$ Being a Java programmer is no longer an elite skill. Now it's as common as coding in Cobol once was :-( I have already read about the salaries of Java programmers declining and I expect the trend to continue due to the bad economy and the oversupply of qualified Java programmers in the market place. This is why so many companies can now demand specific product experience with Java (ie, if you don't have 1 year of Bea Weblogic experience, see you later!! Next person please...)... SO back to the Struts vs EJB issue: If one is comfortable with struts, how much more difficult would EJB be to get comfortable with? Also, seems like Struts is more useful for smaller companies and EJB is more suitable for large corporations. Is this pretty much a valid statement? thanks... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?
EJB and Struts are not the same thing. Struts is an open source framework for building Web applications that integrates with standard technologies like Java Servlets, JavaBeans, and JavaServer Pages (JSP). Its goal is to do the mundane work of converting HTTP parameter information into more Java-friendly models, as well as provide an MVC architecture for your J2EE application. While you can construct an application using struts and without EJBs, you can also construct an application using both struts and EJBs. (For that matter, you can create a J2EE application without struts and without EJBs, but why would you? :). I would suggest you pick up a printed or online copy of the J2EE Blueprints from Sun. There, it will outline the fundamental principles of the J2EE architecture, the different tiers, where servlets, JSPs, web frameworks, and EJBs fit in, and even some best practices and patterns. From there, you can determine if EJBs fit your applications' needs. As for whether EJBs is going to be required in the near future for you to get a job, who's to say? But, I have found that many companies in the Austin area have to make this decision before they begin their project, so knowing at least how EJBs work and what the decision points are for using or staying away from EJBs is necessary for any good software designer (and a requirement for architects, of course). Just like any distributed component architecture, EJBs require careful planning and can be a painful decision to a project if the early architecture decisions and daily decisions you make in your design are not well thought out. I've seen projects die a horrible death from poor planning and lack of overall architectural planning. When done right, EJBs can make your life must easier, since there are many benefits provided to your application that you gain for free from J2EE that you would have had to build by hand otherwise. HTH, James -Original Message- From: Kousek, Theron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 7:03 PM To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' Subject: Struts vs EJB, thoughts? Not that I am looking for a job (I am not), I have been working with struts for the last 4 months and don't mind it. I see it as a poor mans EJB. I have no EJB experience but I don't think transitioning over to EJB after working with struts as a big deal. After all, they both act on server-side beans. Yeah, EJB has entity beans and session beans but you can easily simulate both of those types of beans using JSP/Struts/tomcat. Since there's a gazillion people on the planet now that know how to program in Java, getting an EJB position will be next to impossible (I guess) if you don't have EJB experience. Companies now have so many available Java programmers to pick and choose from and are in a position to require salary cuts for existing Java programmers on staff due to the plethoria of Java developers available to work who would be willing to work for less$Being a Java programmer is no longer an elite skill. Now it's as common as coding in Cobol once was :-( I have already read about the salaries of Java programmers declining and I expect the trend to continue due to the bad economy and the oversupply of qualified Java programmers in the market place. This is why so many companies can now demand specific product experience with Java (ie, if you don't have 1 year of Bea Weblogic experience, see you later!! Next person please...)... SO back to the Struts vs EJB issue: If one is comfortable with struts, how much more difficult would EJB be to get comfortable with? Also, seems like Struts is more useful for smaller companies and EJB is more suitable for large corporations. Is this pretty much a valid statement? thanks... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?
I prefer apples to oranges because they don't take their name from their colour. FYI, we use Struts with EJBs. EJBs are the M of MVC, Struts is the VC. There is little to no overlap. If you don't need the container support provided for EJBs (remote invocation, pooling, transactions, etc), then you use plain JBs as the M and struts as the VC. (That may be simplifying it somewhat, but you get my drift). Cheers, Brett -Original Message- From: Kousek, Theron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, 13 April 2002 10:03 AM To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' Subject: Struts vs EJB, thoughts? Not that I am looking for a job (I am not), I have been working with struts for the last 4 months and don't mind it. I see it as a poor mans EJB. I have no EJB experience but I don't think transitioning over to EJB after working with struts as a big deal. After all, they both act on server-side beans. Yeah, EJB has entity beans and session beans but you can easily simulate both of those types of beans using JSP/Struts/tomcat. Since there's a gazillion people on the planet now that know how to program in Java, getting an EJB position will be next to impossible (I guess) if you don't have EJB experience. Companies now have so many available Java programmers to pick and choose from and are in a position to require salary cuts for existing Java programmers on staff due to the plethoria of Java developers available to work who would be willing to work for less$Being a Java programmer is no longer an elite skill. Now it's as common as coding in Cobol once was :-( I have already read about the salaries of Java programmers declining and I expect the trend to continue due to the bad economy and the oversupply of qualified Java programmers in the market place. This is why so many companies can now demand specific product experience with Java (ie, if you don't have 1 year of Bea Weblogic experience, see you later!! Next person please...)... SO back to the Struts vs EJB issue: If one is comfortable with struts, how much more difficult would EJB be to get comfortable with? Also, seems like Struts is more useful for smaller companies and EJB is more suitable for large corporations. Is this pretty much a valid statement? thanks... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
