RE: when to use Struts

[Melissa L Kelley]

On Sun, 18 Aug 2002, neal wrote:


In the short term, it may take longer. It really depends on how easily you
can learn, which nobody here can really gauge. The best way to determine
that would be to read through the User's Guide on the Struts website, take
a peek at the Javadocs, and run through a tutorial (which you can find
some in the Resources section on the Struts website).

The most valuable feature in my opinion would be the growing user base.
Resources to learn the framework pop up everyday. There is also the
consideration of other developers having to work on the code in the
future. The chances that you can find another developer that knows Struts is
increasing. And having a developer who already knows the framework would
save time over a developer having to learn a framework.

Case in point:
I work in the US in the energy industry which has been seeing a lot of
layoffs, my company not excluded. Our layoffs took our development base of
about 35 people (which were spread out in small teams of about 5 or 6
throught the company) to 6 people. The 6 of us that survived have had to
take on more applications. One of the apps that I took over was in the
middle of development. The business came to me and said they were in the
middle of doing some testing but they can't get to the app anymore. They
wanted to show the eventual end users parts of it in a couple of days, so
they wanted it to be up and running. Well, to shorten the story, the code
that was checked into source control was out of date, the build file
wouldn't run, and the war would not deploy. The only documentation that I
had was on the business requirements. The only thing that enabled me to
get that app up and running in time (and still be able to go home and
sleep) was that the developer chose to use Struts, which I was using on
another project and thus was familiar with. I'm also not having any
problems picking up the development of the app even with the lack of
documentation. The decision to use Struts by the previous developer was
quite a time saver for me.


--> stu: www.stuology.net
It just no longer is plain simple safe fun
when it's the psycho chimp that has the ray gun

Stuology -- A million monkeys can't be wrong


> Yeah, I know what I am saying would be like reinventing the wheel, and thus
> the point of using a framework (to not reinvent the wheel).  However, my
> main concern is that learning to use this 'wheel' might take longer than
> building one myself.
>
> I'm sure the guys who wrote Struts are masters of the field and I have heard
> great things about Struts.  I guess I am simply posting the question to try
> to get more information about it.  On the surface it just sounds like one
> more thing to learn, and I'm just trying to gauge the value.
>
> What about Struts do you find to be the most valuable features?
>
> Thanks!  :)
>
> Neal
>
>
>
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RE: when to use Struts

[Jerry Jalenak]

Neal,

We've been using Struts for about 4 months now.  I originally started with
1.0, then went to 1.1b1, and now 1.1b2. The initial learning curve was
fairly easy; learning some of the new features of 1.1 has taken some time
(some of the new things I haven't even had time to try!).  Once you figure
out the basics, the rest comes extremely easy.  I've been able to take a new
programmer (with ZERO experience in web app development), and train her to
use the basics of Struts in a couple of days.  She has since deployed her
first app, and has started on her second - this one will begin to use
validator instead of writing custom validation routines.  She picked up
Tiles without any problems.  The hardest thing that I've found is getting
new people to remember where to make all of the XML changes that need to be
made!  (web, struts-config, tiles-config, validator-rules, etc)

HTH,

Jerry

> -Original Message-
> From: neal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 5:08 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: RE: when to use Struts
> 
> 
> Yeah, I know what I am saying would be like reinventing the 
> wheel, and thus
> the point of using a framework (to not reinvent the wheel).  
> However, my
> main concern is that learning to use this 'wheel' might take 
> longer than
> building one myself.
> 
> I'm sure the guys who wrote Struts are masters of the field 
> and I have heard
> great things about Struts.  I guess I am simply posting the 
> question to try
> to get more information about it.  On the surface it just 
> sounds like one
> more thing to learn, and I'm just trying to gauge the value.
> 
> What about Struts do you find to be the most valuable features?
> 
> Thanks!  :)
> 
> Neal
> 
> 
> 
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Re: when to use Struts

[mailinglist]

> Yeah, I know what I am saying would be like reinventing the wheel, and
thus
> the point of using a framework (to not reinvent the wheel).  However, my
> main concern is that learning to use this 'wheel' might take longer than
> building one myself.

And with the great books coming soon, you will learn faster and without pain
:o)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/ref=br_ss_/002-4557268-
5498463

 Chuck's preview is downloadable on the serverside:
http://www.theserverside.com/resources/strutsreview.jsp

(I hope Ted's draft book will also be available online)


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RE: when to use Struts

[John Yu]

This article may help:

   http://www.scioworks.net/devnews/articles/struts_adoption_issues/index.html



At 06:03 am 19-08-2002, you wrote:
>Why reinvent the wheel? If it has been done for you, why not use it and let
>someone else have all the problems of maintaining it?
>
>I've reecently started to use struts. I was a  bit sceptical about it to
>begin with, but it has proved tot be really useful. Definatley recomend
>usinig it.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: neal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: 18 August 2002 23:50
>To: Struts Users Mailing List
>Subject: RE: when to use Struts
>
>
>True.  But MVC programming can be achieved without Struts.  Writing an
>action servlet similar to that provided by Struts does not appear to be
>difficult.
>
>N
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: V. Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 2:48 PM
>To: Struts Users Mailing List
>Subject: Re: when to use Struts
>
>
>The bigger the project the more productivity you get with modular (MVC)
>programming.
>v.
>
>neal wrote:
> > I am new to struts and am attempting to get my around how valuable it
>would
> > be me.
> >
> >>From what I gather, it's primary asset is the action servlet which makes
>for
> > a nice seperation between the view and the control. I also understand that
> > if provides some useful tools such as a connectionPool for JDBC, and some
> > XML parsing tools.
> >
> > Aside from these things, what makes Struts useful? I guess what I am
> > ultimatley wondering is if the time saved by using Struts will be eaten up
> > by the time it takes me to learn Struts, enough to use it?
> >
> > Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > Neal
> >

-- 
John Yu   Scioworks Technologies
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: +(65) 873 5989
w: http://www.scioworks.com   m: +(65) 9782 9610

Scioworks Camino - "Don't develop Struts Apps without it!"


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Re: when to use Struts

[Joel Rees]

> However, my
> main concern is that learning to use this 'wheel' might take longer than
> building one myself.

Great. Allocate a few extra days for the learning curve and try building
one yourself. That way, you'll know whether you really need a full-blown
framework like struts, and, if you do need the full framework, you'll by
a few days ahead on understanding the whys and hows.

-- 
Joel Rees <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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RE: when to use Struts

[Peggy Davidson]

We had a 30-day prototype to get up and running and chose Struts for the
framework.  There were 3 team members, none of whom had ever used Struts
before.  We chose it because of how much we had heard about ease of use, etc
from other peers.  We made our deadline and the interface included about 20
jsp pages 15 action classes, 10 forms and a couple of servlets with a
database interface.  Its not an overly complex application but my point is
we had no problem getting up to speed by walking through the example and
taking advantage of the helpful folks on the user's list.  Another component
that we have recently incorporated (Which has really decreased the code in
the classes) is the basic validation stuff.  Very easy to use and understand
and has cut my code down significantly.

One other point I want to make is the customer decided after delivery they
did not like the look and feel, well by using the struts, we were able to
change the look and feel within a day (and I mean it changed 180 degrees),
without impacting and of the business logic.


Peggy

-Original Message-
From: neal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 5:40 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: when to use Struts


I am new to struts and am attempting to get my around how valuable it would
be me.

>From what I gather, it's primary asset is the action servlet which makes for
a nice seperation between the view and the control. I also understand that
if provides some useful tools such as a connectionPool for JDBC, and some
XML parsing tools.

Aside from these things, what makes Struts useful? I guess what I am
ultimatley wondering is if the time saved by using Struts will be eaten up
by the time it takes me to learn Struts, enough to use it?

Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated.

Thanks.
Neal


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RE: when to use Struts

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Sun, 18 Aug 2002, neal wrote:

> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 15:07:45 -0700
> From: neal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: RE: when to use Struts
>
> Yeah, I know what I am saying would be like reinventing the wheel, and thus
> the point of using a framework (to not reinvent the wheel).  However, my
> main concern is that learning to use this 'wheel' might take longer than
> building one myself.
>

A data point might be interesting for you.

Especially in the early days when there wasn't anything like Struts
available, a very large number of people came across Struts and said
"boy, am I glad I found this ... now I don't have to keep maintaining my
own." and "gee, I was halfway done with my own and starting to find it
painful."  These people recognized an important principle.

You're absolutely right that you can create a controller servlet like the
one in Struts pretty easily -- but that is not the entire cost in order to
do a fair comparison.  You also have to count in all of the effort it's
going to take, now and forever more, to maintain your own framework and
add any new features that you see in other frameworks and want for
yourself.

I haven't added it up precisely, but just my own efforts that have gone
into Struts might prove illuminating ... the basic framework, and the
initial set of custom tags, was written from scratch over about twenty
hours on a three-day holiday weekend to the beach (needless to say, my
wife wasn't particularly happy with me ...).  In the 27 months or so since
then, I've easily invested a hundred times that many hours in updates and
fixes -- to say nothing of the efforts of at least ten other committers
and untold numbers of people who have volunteerd patches and improvement
suggestions.

For a framework developer, that cost is pretty modest compared to the
returns.  For a person whose primary job is to produce web applications,
the investment in building your own framework directly takes away precious
developer hours and attention from building the applications themselves --
the cost of training on a framework like Struts (assuming its meet your
basic needs) is trivial by comparison.

Craig



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Re: when to use Struts

[Kenneth Stout]

Neal,

I believe there are four areas that make struts worth the investment.
1) struts allows you or a team to deal with each of the building blocks one
at a time. You start with the core and then add-on templates, tiles,
validator, etc as and when needed.
2) Rock solid code base.
3) It has an outstanding user community that is very willing to provide
assistance. If you haven't already noticed this mailing list generated 80 to
120 message per day. That is a lot of information and ideas flowing. And you
must stay around for the Friday threads. ;-)
4) There are a wealth of tools available to help make struts programming
easier, and struts integrates into the most popular IDEs.

Kenneth.


- Original Message -
From: "neal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 2:39 PM
Subject: when to use Struts


>
> I am new to struts and am attempting to get my around how valuable it
would
> be me.
>
> From what I gather, it's primary asset is the action servlet which makes
for
> a nice seperation between the view and the control. I also understand that
> if provides some useful tools such as a connectionPool for JDBC, and some
> XML parsing tools.
>
> Aside from these things, what makes Struts useful? I guess what I am
> ultimatley wondering is if the time saved by using Struts will be eaten up
> by the time it takes me to learn Struts, enough to use it?
>
> Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
> Neal
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:

> For additional commands, e-mail:

>


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RE: when to use Struts

[Ian Vellosa]

there is a good tutorial at;

http://rzserv2.fhnon.de/~lg002556/struts/Doku.html

if you can put aside a day or maybe two, you can get the basics all susseed
off this

-Original Message-
From: neal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 19 August 2002 00:08
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: when to use Struts


Yeah, I know what I am saying would be like reinventing the wheel, and thus
the point of using a framework (to not reinvent the wheel).  However, my
main concern is that learning to use this 'wheel' might take longer than
building one myself.

I'm sure the guys who wrote Struts are masters of the field and I have heard
great things about Struts.  I guess I am simply posting the question to try
to get more information about it.  On the surface it just sounds like one
more thing to learn, and I'm just trying to gauge the value.

What about Struts do you find to be the most valuable features?

Thanks!  :)

Neal



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RE: when to use Struts

[neal]

Yeah, I know what I am saying would be like reinventing the wheel, and thus
the point of using a framework (to not reinvent the wheel).  However, my
main concern is that learning to use this 'wheel' might take longer than
building one myself.

I'm sure the guys who wrote Struts are masters of the field and I have heard
great things about Struts.  I guess I am simply posting the question to try
to get more information about it.  On the surface it just sounds like one
more thing to learn, and I'm just trying to gauge the value.

What about Struts do you find to be the most valuable features?

Thanks!  :)

Neal



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Re: when to use Struts

[V. Cekvenich]

You can spend your time writing system programing (bugs?, performance?, 
document? new hires? future?) and write yet another mvc, (do you think 
you can out do the Struts team of Craig, Ted, Martin, Cedric, 
Winterfeld, etc. etc, what they did for the last few years?)
or
spend your time re-using working/tested/ documented/ books on it code 
and do applications programing to solve a bus. problem.

Some people drive a car to work (use technology) others get under the 
car and tweak a combustion engine (get used by technology).

You should do what you think will let you build an app faster for your 
client/employer.

v.


   wrote:
> True.  But MVC programming can be achieved without Struts.  Writing an
> action servlet similar to that provided by Struts does not appear to be
> difficult.
> 
> N
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: V. Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 2:48 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: when to use Struts
> 
> 
> The bigger the project the more productivity you get with modular (MVC)
> programming.
> v.
> 
> neal wrote:
> 
>>I am new to struts and am attempting to get my around how valuable it
> 
> would
> 
>>be me.
>>
>>>From what I gather, it's primary asset is the action servlet which makes
> 
> for
> 
>>a nice seperation between the view and the control. I also understand that
>>if provides some useful tools such as a connectionPool for JDBC, and some
>>XML parsing tools.
>>
>>Aside from these things, what makes Struts useful? I guess what I am
>>ultimatley wondering is if the time saved by using Struts will be eaten up
>>by the time it takes me to learn Struts, enough to use it?
>>
>>Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated.
>>
>>Thanks.
>>Neal
>>
>>
>>--
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> 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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>>For additional commands, e-mail:
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> 
>>
> 
> 
> 
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RE: when to use Struts

[Ian Vellosa]

Why reinvent the wheel? If it has been done for you, why not use it and let
someone else have all the problems of maintaining it?

I've reecently started to use struts. I was a  bit sceptical about it to
begin with, but it has proved tot be really useful. Definatley recomend
usinig it.

-Original Message-
From: neal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 18 August 2002 23:50
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: when to use Struts


True.  But MVC programming can be achieved without Struts.  Writing an
action servlet similar to that provided by Struts does not appear to be
difficult.

N



-Original Message-
From: V. Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 2:48 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: when to use Struts


The bigger the project the more productivity you get with modular (MVC)
programming.
v.

neal wrote:
> I am new to struts and am attempting to get my around how valuable it
would
> be me.
>
>>From what I gather, it's primary asset is the action servlet which makes
for
> a nice seperation between the view and the control. I also understand that
> if provides some useful tools such as a connectionPool for JDBC, and some
> XML parsing tools.
>
> Aside from these things, what makes Struts useful? I guess what I am
> ultimatley wondering is if the time saved by using Struts will be eaten up
> by the time it takes me to learn Struts, enough to use it?
>
> Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
> Neal
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>



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RE: when to use Struts

[neal]

True.  But MVC programming can be achieved without Struts.  Writing an
action servlet similar to that provided by Struts does not appear to be
difficult.

N



-Original Message-
From: V. Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 2:48 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: when to use Struts


The bigger the project the more productivity you get with modular (MVC)
programming.
v.

neal wrote:
> I am new to struts and am attempting to get my around how valuable it
would
> be me.
>
>>From what I gather, it's primary asset is the action servlet which makes
for
> a nice seperation between the view and the control. I also understand that
> if provides some useful tools such as a connectionPool for JDBC, and some
> XML parsing tools.
>
> Aside from these things, what makes Struts useful? I guess what I am
> ultimatley wondering is if the time saved by using Struts will be eaten up
> by the time it takes me to learn Struts, enough to use it?
>
> Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
> Neal
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>



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Re: when to use Struts

[V. Cekvenich]

The bigger the project the more productivity you get with modular (MVC) 
programming.
v.

neal wrote:
> I am new to struts and am attempting to get my around how valuable it would
> be me.
> 
>>From what I gather, it's primary asset is the action servlet which makes for
> a nice seperation between the view and the control. I also understand that
> if provides some useful tools such as a connectionPool for JDBC, and some
> XML parsing tools.
> 
> Aside from these things, what makes Struts useful? I guess what I am
> ultimatley wondering is if the time saved by using Struts will be eaten up
> by the time it takes me to learn Struts, enough to use it?
> 
> Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks.
> Neal
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> 



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