[Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Save As PopUp

[Ütkarsh Tiwari]

Hi,
 Here is Mr. Anderson's suggestion on 'Save As Popup's design. It would
be great to have everyone's suggestions and ideas on it.

Regards,
Ütkarsh Tiwari
-- Forwarded message --
From: "Tony Anderson" 
Date: Jul 15, 2016 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: Save As
To: "Ütkarsh Tiwari" , "Sebastian Silva" <
sebast...@fuentelibre.org>
Cc:



On 07/15/2016 03:49 PM, Ütkarsh Tiwari wrote:

Hi,
I have a little confusion about the feature which I need to clear. Here
is what's in my mind. Please correct me if I am wrong.

1) If the user '*starts'* a new activity from 'home view' - On close the
alert pops up - [ XXX ]  'Save''Quit' .

Action on save - A new instance is created with the new name while the
original instance remains intact with the previous name.


Since the user started new, there is no original instance. You create a new
instance (metadata). If the user gives you a title, you save the instance
with that name. If the users clicks quit, you save the new instance
(metadata) and quit (no document is saved).


2) If the user *'resumes' *activity - On close the alert pops up - [
XXX]   'Save''Quit' .

Action on close - A new instance is created with the 'overwitten' data  and
a new name while the original instance with the original data remains
intact ?


This one has three possible actions:

1. The user clicks on save (not changing the title). You save the object
(with the document). You delete the document at the original handle. This
results in a 'save' - the user has the modified document in the Journal.
>From your point of view, there are now two objects in the Journal, the
original metadata file and the new object.

2. The user changes the title and clicks on save. You save the object as in
case 1 and you leave the object with the original handle untouched. Now the
Journal has two objects each with its own file.

3. The user clicks on quit. You save the metadata file and quit. The
resumed document remains unchanged in the original entry. The new entry has
no document file.

This is more confusing because of the way Sugar works. On the one hand, the
Journal is a record of documents created by the user. On the other it is a
log of the user's activity with the XO. Conceptually, I would like to see
the Journal show only objects which have a document with a
user-supplied-title.

With the 'remotejournal', that script should upload the metadata file for
all objects. If an object has a document with a title supplied by user, the
metadata and the document should be uploaded to the server. In the first
case, the metadata file should be deleted locally (since a copy exists on
the server for statistical analysis). In the Journal, one of the metadata
fields is a boolean named 'keep'. It's use in Sugar was undefined until
Walter used it for his Portfolio activity.
When true, this item shows as a star filled in with a color. If false, the
star shows the background color.

The idea is that the remotejournal when it uploads a document, marks it as
'keep'. This signifies that there is a local copy of the document. If the
user clears the star, the remotejournal should delete the local copy of the
document. If the user clicks on a clear star, the remotejournal should
download that document from the server making a local copy.

This way the user can delete documents from the local datastore to save
space and still be able to access it when needed for further use.

So the remotejournal will eliminate the 'clutter' of the Journal. This
script should run each time Browse connects to the school server keeping
the Journal view compact and with only meaningful entries.

It would also be easy to write a 'recovery' script which would sync the
local datastore entries to those on the server leaving all 'keep' stars
cleared. The user could then request that needed documents be downloaded.

I hope this helps.

Tony


Regards,
Ütkarsh Tiwari

On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Tony Anderson 
wrote:

> Hi, Utkarsh
>
> It appears that Dave Crossland (see sugar_dev) concludes that you are
> correct - the best thing in the alert is to leave the project name blank.
> I am leaning this way as well. It shows that a name is needed.
>
> Tony
>



-- 
Regards,
Ütkarsh Tiwari
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Re: [Sugar-devel] workaround for ASLO to download .xo to sugar

[Thomas Gilliard]

This is a workaround for the missing ASLO [1]

Look up the number of the activity in the Index of activities listing 
Activity Number  and then go to numeric list to download it.


Tom Gilliard
satellit

nice to have old archives : )

==Sugar-Activities==
*Workaround for ASLO not working

*Downloadable DVD of .xo files
:http://download.sugarlabs.org/images/ASLOxo6-3.iso

* Index of activities listing Activity Number
:https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Creation_Kit/sck/Activity_Matrix#Most_Recent-Activity_Test_Results
::https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Testing/Reports/Activity_Matrix_(A_to_I)
::https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Testing/Reports/Activity_Matrix_(J_to_Z)

*Numeric list of Activities
:http://download.sugarlabs.org/activities/


[1]https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Fedora_25#Sugar-Activities
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Re: [Sugar-devel] [sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit-gtk3] Save As Popup (#327)

[Tony Anderson]

Hi, Dave


I suppose this discussion is valuable if it helps make folks aware of 
what is going on.


On the school server, I have a tutorial sequence to introduce users to 
basic html5 and css. This is followed by a presentation based on the

text Eloquent Javascript.

For the html introduction, I suggest that users create a text file 
skeleton of a web page (skeleton.html) which is:












This represents the text for their web pages. For example, to make 
'Hello World!', they would open the skeleton.html file in a text-editor 
(nano). They would add the line to the body element: Hello 
World! and save it. I recommend this be done in 
/home/olpc/Documents. The user goes to the Journal and copies 
skeleton.html to the Journal. The user than can resume the journal 
object in Browse.


With the Fiddler feature, the file can be opened using an object chooser 
rather than resume. After making modifications using the Fiddler 
feature, the user can rename the project and save. Now the Journal has 
two objects: skeleton and helloworld. To make the next page, the user 
opens skeleton again and makes a new page, saving it under the new name.


Initially, I thought we would do this using the Journal to resume. 
However, this has some problems. First, if Browse is running, a new 
instance is launched instead of opening the url in a new tab. Second, 
the skeleton file would be lost, replaced by the Hello World file. This 
is a serious defect in Sugar (activity.py) which Utkarsh has fixed. 
Luckily, the object chooser does not have this problem.


I don't know how anyone who has looked at a Journal on a deployed XO 
could imagine that users routinely supply names to their projects. I 
could provide a name for a Terminal session - debugging xyz - and use 
this information to resume it. However, this is not useful enough to 
take the time. However, I have no problem with nano requiring me to 
choose whether to save the buffer or not, or giving me the ability to 
change the name as I wish. For example, I may find I have edited a 
system file as a user. So I save it in /tmp/file_name. I can then do 
sudo mv /tmp/file_name /usr/lib//file_name saving having to perform 
the edits over.


Note: the ubiquitous popup menus in 0.1.06 are modal. Normally, they go 
away if you click somewhere else on the screen; however, while one is 
open, it is not possible to switch to the Journal or another activity. 
The Journal in that version pops up these gratuitously during and after 
a copy.


It is amazing to me that the folks who are so adamant against the alert 
in 'save as' have accepted it as useful in the screenshot PR. This 
modified the UI so that the user clicking on alt+1 gets an alert 
offering an opportunity to provide a name for the screenshot (and not 
going away before the user does and clicks save or doesn't and clicks 
cancel).


Tony

On 07/15/2016 03:13 PM, Dave Crossland wrote:


On 15 July 2016 at 09:04, Tony Anderson > wrote:


The screenshot was archaeological - a feature since removed from
Sugar.


Ah yes, I see, from 0.90 which is very old.

I have not used any formal social science methodology (and really
don't plan to - my time at the deployments is limited and is
focussed on introducing new capabilities which may be of use to
the teachers and students.)


If you plan to introduce this feature as part of the web technology 
training you mentioned, I think if you make time for introducing it 
with a "Concurrent Think Aloud (CTA)" demonstration, you'll be able to 
learn a lot about how the design is working with real users and share 
what you learn with the community.




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[Sugar-devel] Minutes from Today's Meeting (7-15-2016)

[Devin]

Hi,

Here are the minutes from today's meeting:
http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/sugar-meeting/meetings/2016-07-15T12:26:15.html

It was fun!

Devin
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Re: [Sugar-devel] [sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit-gtk3] Save As Popup (#327)

[Dave Crossland]

On 15 July 2016 at 09:04, Tony Anderson  wrote:

> The screenshot was archaeological - a feature since removed from Sugar.
>

Ah yes, I see, from 0.90 which is very old.


> I have not used any formal social science methodology (and really don't
> plan to - my time at the deployments is limited and is focussed on
> introducing new capabilities which may be of use to the teachers and
> students.)
>

If you plan to introduce this feature as part of the web technology
training you mentioned, I think if you make time for introducing it with a
"Concurrent Think Aloud (CTA)" demonstration, you'll be able to learn a lot
about how the design is working with real users and share what you learn
with the community.
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Re: [Sugar-devel] [GSOC] Font Editor Next Steps

[Dave Crossland]

On 15 July 2016 at 05:16, Yash Agarwal  wrote:

> Yesterday's Work
> fixing up small errors in the glyph editor
> adding a basic pen tool: now we can make a contour with lines
> https://github.com/sugarlabs/edit-fonts-activity/pull/74
>

Okay cool, I'll see about fixing the flake8 stuff


> What I plan to do today:
> working on the .xo release
>

Alright!
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Re: [Sugar-devel] [sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit-gtk3] Save As Popup (#327)

[Tony Anderson]

Hi, Dave

The screenshot was archaeological - a feature since removed from Sugar.

I have not used any formal social science methodology (and really don't 
plan to - my time at the deployments is limited and is focussed on 
introducing new capabilities which may be of use to the teachers and 
students.)


Tony

On 07/15/2016 02:55 PM, Dave Crossland wrote:


On 15 July 2016 at 08:33, Tony Anderson > wrote:


I think we all hope someone will attempt to work with and support
our users. I have a lot of experience over many years working
with deployments, but would not suggest anything I have done is
definitive.


I understand that; I'm curious as to if you have worked with 'formal' 
user testing methods (eg 
https://www.usability.gov/how-to-and-tools/methods/)


This is a feature that my experience tells me is needed.


I don't doubt that :)

I am trying to develop a training sequence in web technology. It
is essential for that. Since it has been implemented and this is
open source,
I can use it as I need it.


Sure! I'm not trying to dissuade you from running private fork 
features in the deployments you manage :)


I am trying to meet your needs as well as the needs of other 
contributors.


I presume Sebastian posted the screenshot to suggest that the user 
experience of this feature is not yet very good from his perspective. 
The large size of the dialog is surprising to me.


Since you are leading the development of this feature, since you have 
ready access to children with XOs, and since you are advocating the 
change, I think that methodological user testing can help you improve 
the feature for yourself, and help address the concerns of other 
community members :)





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Re: [Sugar-devel] [sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit-gtk3] Save As Popup (#327)

[Dave Crossland]

On 15 July 2016 at 08:33, Tony Anderson  wrote:

> I think we all hope someone will attempt to work with and support our
> users. I have a lot of experience over many years working
> with deployments, but would not suggest anything I have done is definitive.
>

I understand that; I'm curious as to if you have worked with 'formal' user
testing methods (eg https://www.usability.gov/how-to-and-tools/methods/)


> This is a feature that my experience tells me is needed.
>

I don't doubt that :)


> I am trying to develop a training sequence in web technology. It is
> essential for that. Since it has been implemented and this is open source,
> I can use it as I need it.
>

Sure! I'm not trying to dissuade you from running private fork features in
the deployments you manage :)

I am trying to meet your needs as well as the needs of other contributors.

I presume Sebastian posted the screenshot to suggest that the user
experience of this feature is not yet very good from his perspective. The
large size of the dialog is surprising to me.

Since you are leading the development of this feature, since you have ready
access to children with XOs, and since you are advocating the change, I
think that methodological user testing can help you improve the feature for
yourself, and help address the concerns of other community members :)
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Re: [Sugar-devel] [sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit-gtk3] Save As Popup (#327)

[Tony Anderson]

I think we all hope someone will attempt to work with and support our 
users. I have a lot of experience over many years working
with deployments, but would not suggest anything I have done is 
definitive. This is a feature that my experience tells me is needed.
I am trying to develop a training sequence in web technology. It is 
essential for that. Since it has been implemented and this is open source,

I can use it as I need it.

Tony

On 07/15/2016 02:28 PM, Dave Crossland wrote:


On 15 July 2016 at 08:22, Tony Anderson > wrote:


Sugar is frozen to decisions made several years ago.


I think that's because there is no UX lead who is able to show through 
user studies that changes are good.



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Re: [Sugar-devel] [sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit-gtk3] Save As Popup (#327)

[Dave Crossland]

On 15 July 2016 at 08:22, Tony Anderson  wrote:

> Sugar is frozen to decisions made several years ago.


I think that's because there is no UX lead who is able to show through user
studies that changes are good.
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Re: [Sugar-devel] [sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit-gtk3] Save As Popup (#327)

[Tony Anderson]

The default is, of course, no change. The user or deployment can change 
by the command line. As Martin Dengler has pointed out Sugar is frozen 
to decisions made several years ago.


Tony

On 07/15/2016 02:04 PM, Dave Crossland wrote:


I think user testing can resolve such ux disagreements.

A setting to choose from both is not a wise design decision because 
there is still a question of which is default and how easy it is to set.


Since Tony is advocating for a change, perhaps you could do a user 
test. Have you done one before? :)




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Re: [Sugar-devel] [sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit-gtk3] Save As Popup (#327)

[Dave Crossland]

I think user testing can resolve such ux disagreements.

A setting to choose from both is not a wise design decision because there
is still a question of which is default and how easy it is to set.

Since Tony is advocating for a change, perhaps you could do a user test.
Have you done one before? :)
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Re: [Sugar-devel] [GSOC] Font Editor Next Steps

[Yash Agarwal]

Yesterday's Work
fixing up small errors in the glyph editor
adding a basic pen tool: now we can make a contour with lines
https://github.com/sugarlabs/edit-fonts-activity/pull/74

What I plan to do today:
working on the .xo release

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 4:28 AM Dave Crossland  wrote:

> Hi
>
> On Jul 13, 2016 5:30 PM, "Yash Agarwal"  wrote:
> >
> > Today's Work
>
> > Now we can edit any glyph using the control points while maintaining the
> smooth state of the curves
> > here the pull request for this
> > https://github.com/sugarlabs/edit-fonts-activity/pull/74
>
> Great work Yash :) This has been a few days of effort!
>
> > What will I do tomorrow:
> > as the above-mentioned feature is already integrated into the activity I
> will be completing the required tasks for the first release
>
> Great :) I'm looking forwards to this so we can start user testing :)
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 5:35 PM Yash Agarwal 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 3:38 AM Dave Crossland  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi Yash!
> >>>
> >>> On 6 July 2016 at 17:58, Yash Agarwal  wrote:
> 
>  Today's Work Report
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for making a daily report :)
> >>>
> 
>  1. adding a global configuration file- this will store the global
> settings like the current working font, theme, font to be used for
> headings, etc.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Nice!
> >>>
> 
>  2. figured out the details for bezier drawing tool on paper
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> That's awesome! I wonder if tomorrow you'd be willing to snap a few
> pics with your phone of your notes and write up your basic concept for the
> blog?
> >>>
> >>
> >> PFA my rough notes, I'll make a thorough blog post explaining this
> after the v1 release
> >>
> 
>  Tomorrow's goal:
>  complete writing the bezier tool
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I suggest to leave the Bezier tool for now and focus on shipping an
> .xo that allows users to draw fonts using only straight lines, so that Eli
> and I can do user testing :)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Cheers
> >>> Dave
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] [sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit-gtk3] Save As Popup (#327)

[Tony Anderson]

As you might expect, I totally disagree.

First, by that time the damage has been done. Either the 'save as' 
option has been taken with a new object created or the 'resumed' 
document has been overwritten - as at present.


This feature has two objectives:

1 - require Journal items to have a name supplied by user
2 - enable the user to choose whether to save the object as a new 
one or to simply save the modified document.


This proposal addresses neither objective.

You are not going to change your point of view so the only solution I 
can see is to provide a gsetting option so that users and deployments 
can decide on how they want this to work.


Re: the screenshot. Help me - as I remember this dialog was modal and 
required an entry in the description area - leaving the title as 'Write 
activity' was ok.
This was to implement Walter's desire that the description serve as the 
message does in git.


Tony

On 07/15/2016 04:36 AM, Sebastian Silva wrote:


As promised here's a screenshot of Sugar 0.92's "save as" dialog:
captura de pantalla de 2016-07-14 21-33-17 



As per our meeting today I think Martin Dengler's proposal to land the 
user in the Journal after quitting with focus on Object Title would be 
a good solution.


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