Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation
Alison, I think the only solution for Mr. Phillips is to create a new timesystem ;-) Thibaud At 19:57 03-06-2008, Alison Shields wrote: Dear Sundial Experts, I have recently joined this Mailing List, and hope that any members will be able to give me some assistance on the following situation. Our local Stately Home (Kentwell Hall, Long Melford, Suffolk) is considering installing an Analemmatic sundial, as a new interactive attraction for visitors - but we are getting 'conflicting' advice, on whether this 'Human Sundial' will work in the way we want it to. We have been in discussion with Modern Sunclocks (apparently the acknowledged 'experts' for these features), who have told us that its central scale of dates must be aligned North/South - plus that hour markers must be correctly positioned on an elliptical ring, and which would lie on the Northern side of that scale of dates. Photographs on their website ( www.sunclocks.com ) confirm this. However, our 'Director of Operations' (Mr Phillips) absolutely INSISTS that he wants the scale to run exactly parallel with our main driveway - on a compass bearing which is about 162 degrees from North, with the hour points placed on its Southern side. He also wants the hour points to form an exact semi-circle, and not be elliptical in shape. Mr Phillips refuses to accept that he cannot arbitrarily position the Human Sundial feature as he wishes, and says that it must be possible to create this so that it could then align with the existing layout of buildings/paths. Can anyone on this Mailing List tell me whether it is possible to install a Human Sundial to fit any existing orientations, (with appropriate re-calculation of its component parts) - or, if not, just confirm that it must be as Modern Sunclocks have told me. I can then show the 'weight of evidence' to Mr Phillips. Because Kentwell Hall is a well-known Stately Home (open to the public), we should not want to become a 'laughing stock' by installing a feature which does not work - despite Mr Phillips assurance that all types of sundial can be adjusted to work, in any location. Looking forward to all comments (to this List, or sent privately). Sincerely, Alison Shields. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial -- Th. Taudin Chabot, . [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
AW: Dump Horizon Observatory - Construction in progress
Dear Joseph Pastor, I am sorry, but I have to pour some water into your wine and give a comment. If I look at the images of these architects dreams in your indicated links Is this the spirit of our time? Cold, empty, the uncomfortable smell of calculations-Maths, sundials reduced to a series of formulas. No spirit, a giant blow-up of NOTHING! A mentally empty space around these constructions with no inspiration of the location! It remains what it is: A ruined ground. How many fading away precious old sundials on churches could be saved for the next 100 years, how many sundials of reasonable human size placed in the villages and towns, on school grounds, how many good sundial books could be supported with the money which is wasted here! They are so proud about these works! This is what makes me even sadder. These strange steel-constructions could stand in any ruined place of the brave new world I feel so sorry and sad and ashamed what is happening in Germany in this field! Best regards! Reinhold Kriegler * ** *** * ** *** Reinhold R. Kriegler Lat. 53° 6' 52,6 Nord; Long. 8° 53' 52,3 Ost; 48 m ü. N.N. www.ta-dip.de http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=XyCoJHwzzjU http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=XyCoJHwzzjU -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Josef Pastor Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. Juni 2008 01:51 An: 'Sonnenuhr (Uni Köln)' Betreff: Dump Horizon Observatory - Construction in progress Dear Dialists, I reported several times to this list on the Horizon Observatory to be planned on top of the Hoheward coal mine dump near Recklinghausen in the Ruhr industry district. Plans are coming true sometimes. The construction work is actually in progress.The inauguration is scheduled for September 2008. Have a look at the construction site here on the local newspaer-homepage: http://www.recklinghaeuser-zeitung.de/cpg/thumbnails.php?album=556 By the way on picture 29 you have a view on the Obelisk SD (animation http://www.geoastro.de/obelisk/), which has been finished last year, from them construction site of the observatory. For more detailed background knowledge consult the Recklinghausen Observatory: http://www.sternwarte-recklinghausen.de/horizontastronomie.html or http://www.horizontastronomie.de/ http://www.horizontastronomie.de/ (also in English) Best regards Josef Pastor No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1480 - Release Date: 03.06.2008 07:00 --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation
Dear Alison, You have had a number of replies from experts greater than I, and they all say the same thing which I can't add to. I especially liked the one which suggested that Mr Phillips stand there and act as the gnomon (which is what you will be expecting the public to do). I suggest you challenge him on a sunny day (you haven't had many recently in Suffolk, but maybe this weekend coming...) with a compass in his hand, to try to twist and turn in any way to get his shadow to fall on the southern half of the dial. It should be an amusing spectacle, but should also be self instructive to him (if he doesn't believe the welter of opinion here). You can then ask how he expects the public to achieve what he failed to achieve. Regards Peter Tandy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alison Shields Sent: 03 June 2008 18:57 To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation Dear Sundial Experts, I have recently joined this Mailing List, and hope that any members will be able to give me some assistance on the following situation. Our local Stately Home (Kentwell Hall, Long Melford, Suffolk) is considering installing an Analemmatic sundial, as a new interactive attraction for visitors - but we are getting 'conflicting' advice, on whether this 'Human Sundial' will work in the way we want it to. We have been in discussion with Modern Sunclocks (apparently the acknowledged 'experts' for these features), who have told us that its central scale of dates must be aligned North/South - plus that hour markers must be correctly positioned on an elliptical ring, and which would lie on the Northern side of that scale of dates. Photographs on their website ( www.sunclocks.com ) confirm this. However, our 'Director of Operations' (Mr Phillips) absolutely INSISTS that he wants the scale to run exactly parallel with our main driveway - on a compass bearing which is about 162 degrees from North, with the hour points placed on its Southern side. He also wants the hour points to form an exact semi-circle, and not be elliptical in shape. Mr Phillips refuses to accept that he cannot arbitrarily position the Human Sundial feature as he wishes, and says that it must be possible to create this so that it could then align with the existing layout of buildings/paths. Can anyone on this Mailing List tell me whether it is possible to install a Human Sundial to fit any existing orientations, (with appropriate re-calculation of its component parts) - or, if not, just confirm that it must be as Modern Sunclocks have told me. I can then show the 'weight of evidence' to Mr Phillips. Because Kentwell Hall is a well-known Stately Home (open to the public), we should not want to become a 'laughing stock' by installing a feature which does not work - despite Mr Phillips assurance that all types of sundial can be adjusted to work, in any location. Looking forward to all comments (to this List, or sent privately). Sincerely, Alison Shields. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation
Alison, You also can ask him to be dressed like the Wizard Merlin before starting the self educational process described by Peter. This might help and make the spectacle more amusing :-) Best regards, Ricardo -- Início da mensagem original --- De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED], sundial@uni-koeln.de Cc: Data: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:36:18 +0100 Assunto: RE: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation Dear Alison, You have had a number of replies from experts greater than I, and they all say the same thing which I can't add to. I especially liked the one which suggested that Mr Phillips stand there and act as the gnomon (which is what you will be expecting the public to do). I suggest you challenge him on a sunny day (you haven't had many recently in Suffolk, but maybe this weekend coming...) with a compass in his hand, to try to twist and turn in any way to get his shadow to fall on the southern half of the dial. It should be an amusing spectacle, but should also be self instructive to him (if he doesn't believe the welter of opinion here). You can then ask how he expects the public to achieve what he failed to achieve. Regards Peter Tandy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alison Shields Sent: 03 June 2008 18:57 To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation Dear Sundial Experts, I have recently joined this Mailing List, and hope that any members will be able to give me some assistance on the following situation. Our local Stately Home (Kentwell Hall, Long Melford, Suffolk) is considering installing an Analemmatic sundial, as a new interactive attraction for visitors - but we are getting 'conflicting' advice, on whether this 'Human Sundial' will work in the way we want it to. We have been in discussion with Modern Sunclocks (apparently the acknowledged 'experts' for these features), who have told us that its central scale of dates must be aligned North/South - plus that hour markers must be correctly positioned on an elliptical ring, and which would lie on the Northern side of that scale of dates. Photographs on their website ( www.sunclocks.com ) confirm this. However, our 'Director of Operations' (Mr Phillips) absolutely INSISTS that he wants the scale to run exactly parallel with our main driveway - on a compass bearing which is about 162 degrees from North, with the hour points placed on its Southern side. He also wants the hour points to form an exact semi-circle, and not be elliptical in shape. Mr Phillips refuses to accept that he cannot arbitrarily position the Human Sundial feature as he wishes, and says that it must be possible to create this so that it could then align with the existing layout of buildings/paths. Can anyone on this Mailing List tell me whether it is possible to install a Human Sundial to fit any existing orientations, (with appropriate re-calculation of its component parts) - or, if not, just confirm that it must be as Modern Sunclocks have told me. I can then show the 'weight of evidence' to Mr Phillips. Because Kentwell Hall is a well-known Stately Home (open to the public), we should not want to become a 'laughing stock' by installing a feature which does not work - despite Mr Phillips assurance that all types of sundial can be adjusted to work, in any location. Looking forward to all comments (to this List, or sent privately). Sincerely, Alison Shields. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation
Dear Alison, I think the experts have already told you what you need to know. Of course, re-aligning the drive to run North-South would help a little. This should be easier for Mr Phillips than re-aligning the Earth's axis. Placing the whole estate on a turntable would be an alternative allowing the present alignment of drive relative to house to be undisturbed. A rough and ready allowance for Summer Time could then be made twice a year which could become another tourist attraction if you can cope with having Summer and Winter entrances. You may not want to transport it to the Southern Hemisphere, though - nor to the pole when you can indeed use a semicircle (or better still, a full circle). Others may like to comment on the following thoughts: If, instead of standing on the central month scale, the user finds and stands on or near the hour number which casts his shadow onto the appropriate date, the numbers might be arranged to the South rather than to the North of the centre. This requires more action on the part of the user. A circular or other shape rather than a narrow rectangular centre bearing the date scale might disguise the alignment a little. If the hours were not in a horizontal plane, perhaps they could be arranged to lie on a semicircle in some other plane - though not, I think, what Mr Phillips would like? (I was once involved in rectifying, as far as possible given what was immovably fixed, an analemmatic dial at first incorrectly laid out, so I do wish you well in this endeavour. It still ended up having timekeeping errors but it was possible to spread them around so that none were too enormous.) Andrew James -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alison Shields Sent: 03 June 2008 18:57 To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation Dear Sundial Experts, I have recently joined this Mailing List, and hope that any members will be able to give me some assistance on the following situation. Our local Stately Home (Kentwell Hall, Long Melford, Suffolk) is considering installing an Analemmatic sundial, as a new interactive attraction for visitors - but we are getting 'conflicting' advice, on whether this 'Human Sundial' will work in the way we want it to. We have been in discussion with Modern Sunclocks (apparently the acknowledged 'experts' for these features), who have told us that its central scale of dates must be aligned North/South - plus that hour markers must be correctly positioned on an elliptical ring, and which would lie on the Northern side of that scale of dates. Photographs on their website ( www.sunclocks.com ) confirm this. However, our 'Director of Operations' (Mr Phillips) absolutely INSISTS that he wants the scale to run exactly parallel with our main driveway - on a compass bearing which is about 162 degrees from North, with the hour points placed on its Southern side. He also wants the hour points to form an exact semi-circle, and not be elliptical in shape. Mr Phillips refuses to accept that he cannot arbitrarily position the Human Sundial feature as he wishes, and says that it must be possible to create this so that it could then align with the existing layout of buildings/paths. Can anyone on this Mailing List tell me whether it is possible to install a Human Sundial to fit any existing orientations, (with appropriate re-calculation of its component parts) - or, if not, just confirm that it must be as Modern Sunclocks have told me. I can then show the 'weight of evidence' to Mr Phillips. Because Kentwell Hall is a well-known Stately Home (open to the public), we should not want to become a 'laughing stock' by installing a feature which does not work - despite Mr Phillips assurance that all types of sundial can be adjusted to work, in any location. Looking forward to all comments (to this List, or sent privately). Sincerely, Alison Shields. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial This message has been scanned for viruses by MailControl PRI Limited, PRI House, Moorside Road Winchester, Hampshire SO23 7RX United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 1962 840048 Fax: +44 (0) 1962 841046 www.pri.co.uk PRI Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 2199653 Measure - Inform - Empower This correspondence is confidential and is solely for the intended recipient(s).If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this message or any part of it. If you are not the intended recipient please delete this correspondence from your system and notify the sender immediately. This message has been scanned for viruses by MailControl. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation
Alison, Well, you got a number of answers that it won't work, but Forget the analemmatic sundial and look for a shadowplane or hourplane sundial. Several of the wanted demands can be realized. It is an interactive dial, it has the hourpoints at the south side and the hourpoints can be in a circle. Have a look at our website: http://www.de-zonnewijzerkring.nl Work of members Archives 2003 Month 03-02 Best wishes, Fer. Fer J. de Vries De Zonnewijzerkring http://www.de-zonnewijzerkring.nl Molens http://www.collsemolen.dse.nl Eindhoven, Netherlands lat. 51:30 N long. 5:30 E - Original Message - From: Alison Shields [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:57 PM Subject: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation Dear Sundial Experts, I have recently joined this Mailing List, and hope that any members will be able to give me some assistance on the following situation. Our local Stately Home (Kentwell Hall, Long Melford, Suffolk) is considering installing an Analemmatic sundial, as a new interactive attraction for visitors - but we are getting 'conflicting' advice, on whether this 'Human Sundial' will work in the way we want it to. We have been in discussion with Modern Sunclocks (apparently the acknowledged 'experts' for these features), who have told us that its central scale of dates must be aligned North/South - plus that hour markers must be correctly positioned on an elliptical ring, and which would lie on the Northern side of that scale of dates. Photographs on their website ( www.sunclocks.com ) confirm this. However, our 'Director of Operations' (Mr Phillips) absolutely INSISTS that he wants the scale to run exactly parallel with our main driveway - on a compass bearing which is about 162 degrees from North, with the hour points placed on its Southern side. He also wants the hour points to form an exact semi-circle, and not be elliptical in shape. Mr Phillips refuses to accept that he cannot arbitrarily position the Human Sundial feature as he wishes, and says that it must be possible to create this so that it could then align with the existing layout of buildings/paths. Can anyone on this Mailing List tell me whether it is possible to install a Human Sundial to fit any existing orientations, (with appropriate re-calculation of its component parts) - or, if not, just confirm that it must be as Modern Sunclocks have told me. I can then show the 'weight of evidence' to Mr Phillips. Because Kentwell Hall is a well-known Stately Home (open to the public), we should not want to become a 'laughing stock' by installing a feature which does not work - despite Mr Phillips assurance that all types of sundial can be adjusted to work, in any location. Looking forward to all comments (to this List, or sent privately). Sincerely, Alison Shields. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation
Andrew James wrote: If, instead of standing on the central month scale, the user finds and stands on or near the hour number which casts his shadow onto the appropriate date, the numbers might be arranged to the South rather than to the North of the centre. This requires more action on the part of the user. Best practical suggestion I've seen yet! It would require making the date line markers visible from a distance, or possibly a daily (or weekly) placing of a small pylon by facility personnel. If the hours were not in a horizontal plane, perhaps they could be arranged to lie on a semicircle in some other plane - though not, I think, what Mr Phillips would like? Considering the relatively (to central US) high latitude, it might not be too extreme. Something like a ramped walkway (semi)encircling the area of the dial face. Dave --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation
Andrew James wrote: If, instead of standing on the central month scale, the user finds and stands on or near the hour number which casts his shadow onto the appropriate date, the numbers might be arranged to the South rather than to the North of the centre. This requires more action on the part of the user. Best practical suggestion I've seen yet! It would require making the date line markers visible from a distance, or possibly a daily (or weekly) placing of a small pylon by facility personnel. If the hours were not in a horizontal plane, perhaps they could be arranged to lie on a semicircle in some other plane - though not, I think, what Mr Phillips would like? Considering the relatively (to central US) high latitude, it might not be too extreme. Something like a ramped walkway (semi)encircling the area of the dial face. I have one doubt. Instead of changing the plane of the hours, could it be possible to change the one of the months? Ricardo --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation
Hi All, Good point of Fer de Vries. I have the following suggestions: - build a spider-sundial. You will have nice circles for the dates. The place you can stand as a human shadowcasting person can be on the path. If you place the majority of the hourlines and no horizon lines, the pattern is not visually related to the north. The marks for the date-circle can by on the path on the sunny southside . In this way I think the path can feel like the central axis of the dail. There is only 1 point where you can stand is a human gnomon. That is a small concession I think. - an other solution I thought of is one analemma on the path and 1 standing fixed gnomon beside the path. I we seek a bit I think that there is an analemma which is aligned with the path for 1 hour. Although you don't have a human shadow casting person, and there is only 1 hour marked, I think it will be nice and gives someone the feeling that the sun guides the path. Kind regards, Hendrik Hollander [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.analemma.biz lat 52 23' long 4 57' - Original Message - From: fer de vries [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 5:12 PM Subject: Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation Alison, Well, you got a number of answers that it won't work, but Forget the analemmatic sundial and look for a shadowplane or hourplane sundial. Several of the wanted demands can be realized. It is an interactive dial, it has the hourpoints at the south side and the hourpoints can be in a circle. Have a look at our website: http://www.de-zonnewijzerkring.nl Work of members Archives 2003 Month 03-02 Best wishes, Fer. Fer J. de Vries De Zonnewijzerkring http://www.de-zonnewijzerkring.nl Molens http://www.collsemolen.dse.nl Eindhoven, Netherlands lat. 51:30 N long. 5:30 E - Original Message - From: Alison Shields [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:57 PM Subject: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation Dear Sundial Experts, I have recently joined this Mailing List, and hope that any members will be able to give me some assistance on the following situation. Our local Stately Home (Kentwell Hall, Long Melford, Suffolk) is considering installing an Analemmatic sundial, as a new interactive attraction for visitors - but we are getting 'conflicting' advice, on whether this 'Human Sundial' will work in the way we want it to. We have been in discussion with Modern Sunclocks (apparently the acknowledged 'experts' for these features), who have told us that its central scale of dates must be aligned North/South - plus that hour markers must be correctly positioned on an elliptical ring, and which would lie on the Northern side of that scale of dates. Photographs on their website ( www.sunclocks.com ) confirm this. However, our 'Director of Operations' (Mr Phillips) absolutely INSISTS that he wants the scale to run exactly parallel with our main driveway - on a compass bearing which is about 162 degrees from North, with the hour points placed on its Southern side. He also wants the hour points to form an exact semi-circle, and not be elliptical in shape. Mr Phillips refuses to accept that he cannot arbitrarily position the Human Sundial feature as he wishes, and says that it must be possible to create this so that it could then align with the existing layout of buildings/paths. Can anyone on this Mailing List tell me whether it is possible to install a Human Sundial to fit any existing orientations, (with appropriate re-calculation of its component parts) - or, if not, just confirm that it must be as Modern Sunclocks have told me. I can then show the 'weight of evidence' to Mr Phillips. Because Kentwell Hall is a well-known Stately Home (open to the public), we should not want to become a 'laughing stock' by installing a feature which does not work - despite Mr Phillips assurance that all types of sundial can be adjusted to work, in any location. Looking forward to all comments (to this List, or sent privately). Sincerely, Alison Shields. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
