Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[rodwall1...@gmail.com]

Hi Rodger,
Thanks for the discretion.

Best regards,

Roderick Wall.

- Reply message -
From: "Roger" 
To: "rodwall1...@gmail.com" , "Michael Ossipoff" 

Cc: "sundial list" 
Subject: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?
Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2018 3:28 AM

Apply Occam’s Razor. A table is a table consisting of a flat horizontal surface 
typically on four legs. Get down means kneeling, sitting or crouching beside 
the table with your eye at the height of the table and viewing across the 
table. You see the table top as a line in this one dimensional view. You can 
see the equatorial disc and the pencil in a two dimensional view with the disc 
at the sloping up at the co-latitude angle and the pencil (gnomon) at an angle 
to the plane of the table . You turn the disc and pencil to see it in 2 not 3 
dimensions. The whole concept is based on taking different points of view, 
straight down from the top, straight across from the side, along on a plane 
etc. This is what engineering drawing is based on. Descriptive geometry and 
graphical design are offshoots. Do they teach this any more? It was a key part 
of the education of engineers and draftsmen when I took it almost 60 years ago. 
The concepts remain valid. 

For further information come to the NASS conference next month for the 
presentation on “Alternative Seasonal Markers for Analemmatic Sundials” by 
Chris Lusby Taylor and Roger Bailey. This presentation includes over 30 slides 
going through the graphical design technique step by step and solving for exact 
seasonal markers, points on the major axis used with the date/declination table 
to show when and where the sun rises and set through the year. The steps are 
basic and the solution remarkable simple. In trig terms, X = a (Cos Lat) 
squared.

Publication as an article? Not if it takes 30 x 1000 words!

Regards,
Roger Bailey
Walking Shadow Designs

From: rodwall1...@gmail.com
Sent: July 21, 2018 1:59 PM
To: Michael Ossipoff; Roger
Cc: sundial list
Subject: Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

Hi Rodger,

Thanks for the description on how to graphical design a analemmatic sundial.

It maybe me but I am having problems in following your instructions. I find it 
very hard to follow some parts like.

"Now physically drop the disc and pencil onto a horizontal table. Get down to 
view across the table and turn the disc to see it on edge. It will be seen as a 
true length straight line equal to the diameter of the circle."

Does this mean onto a table with legs, or are you referring to a table flat on 
the ground, the sundial is to be on the ground? When you get down onto the 
table. Which way do you face and which way do you turn the disc to see it on 
the edge? And how do you see the edge of the disc as a straight line and where 
does the true length fit in. 

It maybe me but I am lost as to what it means. Please don't think I am being 
negative. I just want to understand how to use this method to draw analemmatic 
sundials. I think it would be a great method if I could only understand it.

I don't know if you have the time to perhaps add some drawings to also show 
each step? I think some drawings may help me to understand it better. They say 
a drawing replaces a 1,000 words.

There also maybe teachers in this group who also find it hard to follow. They 
might want to use this method in their classroom.

Thank,

Roderick Wall.

- Reply message -
From: "Michael Ossipoff" 
To: "Roger" 
Cc: "sundial list" 
Subject: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?
Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2018 8:09 AM


Roger--

I re-emphasize that I'm not attacking the validity of your explanation. As
I said, the sundial-construction explanations based on an orthographic
projection never made sense to me. I'm not saying that they aren't valid,
only that weren't helpful to me.

It seems to me that, when you seek to explain the Analemmatic without the
trig, then, by the time you cover everything relevant to it, without
leaving unanswered questions--then you end up with something much more
complicated and difficult than the trig explanation.

Michael Ossipoff

On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 7:31 PM, Roger  wrote:

> Hi Jack and Michael,
>
>
>
> I don’t agree. The concept is very simple. Perhaps you have had bad
> teachers. One of my presentations at the upcoming conference is a purely
> grapghical method of designing an analemmatic sundial. No trig, not even
> geometry other than the Greek’s ruler and string or a simple math set with
> ruler, protractor and a compass.  From this graphical technique comes a
> whole new concept by  Chris Lusby Taylor for seasonal makers that I will
> describe at the conference next month.
>
>
>
> To demonstrate the simple concepts for analemmatic sundials, start with
> this experiment as a class activity, hands on and interactive. Cut out a
> circle o

RE: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Roger]

Apply Occam’s Razor. A table is a table consisting of a flat horizontal surface 
typically on four legs. Get down means kneeling, sitting or crouching beside 
the table with your eye at the height of the table and viewing across the 
table. You see the table top as a line in this one dimensional view. You can 
see the equatorial disc and the pencil in a two dimensional view with the disc 
at the sloping up at the co-latitude angle and the pencil (gnomon) at an angle 
to the plane of the table . You turn the disc and pencil to see it in 2 not 3 
dimensions. The whole concept is based on taking different points of view, 
straight down from the top, straight across from the side, along on a plane 
etc. This is what engineering drawing is based on. Descriptive geometry and 
graphical design are offshoots. Do they teach this any more? It was a key part 
of the education of engineers and draftsmen when I took it almost 60 years ago. 
The concepts remain valid. 

For further information come to the NASS conference next month for the 
presentation on “Alternative Seasonal Markers for Analemmatic Sundials” by 
Chris Lusby Taylor and Roger Bailey. This presentation includes over 30 slides 
going through the graphical design technique step by step and solving for exact 
seasonal markers, points on the major axis used with the date/declination table 
to show when and where the sun rises and set through the year. The steps are 
basic and the solution remarkable simple. In trig terms, X = a (Cos Lat) 
squared.

Publication as an article? Not if it takes 30 x 1000 words!

Regards,
Roger Bailey
Walking Shadow Designs

From: rodwall1...@gmail.com
Sent: July 21, 2018 1:59 PM
To: Michael Ossipoff; Roger
Cc: sundial list
Subject: Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

Hi Rodger,

Thanks for the description on how to graphical design a analemmatic sundial.

It maybe me but I am having problems in following your instructions. I find it 
very hard to follow some parts like.

"Now physically drop the disc and pencil onto a horizontal table. Get down to 
view across the table and turn the disc to see it on edge. It will be seen as a 
true length straight line equal to the diameter of the circle."

Does this mean onto a table with legs, or are you referring to a table flat on 
the ground, the sundial is to be on the ground? When you get down onto the 
table. Which way do you face and which way do you turn the disc to see it on 
the edge? And how do you see the edge of the disc as a straight line and where 
does the true length fit in. 

It maybe me but I am lost as to what it means. Please don't think I am being 
negative. I just want to understand how to use this method to draw analemmatic 
sundials. I think it would be a great method if I could only understand it.

I don't know if you have the time to perhaps add some drawings to also show 
each step? I think some drawings may help me to understand it better. They say 
a drawing replaces a 1,000 words.

There also maybe teachers in this group who also find it hard to follow. They 
might want to use this method in their classroom.

Thank,

Roderick Wall.

- Reply message -
From: "Michael Ossipoff" 
To: "Roger" 
Cc: "sundial list" 
Subject: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?
Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2018 8:09 AM


Roger--

I re-emphasize that I'm not attacking the validity of your explanation. As
I said, the sundial-construction explanations based on an orthographic
projection never made sense to me. I'm not saying that they aren't valid,
only that weren't helpful to me.

It seems to me that, when you seek to explain the Analemmatic without the
trig, then, by the time you cover everything relevant to it, without
leaving unanswered questions--then you end up with something much more
complicated and difficult than the trig explanation.

Michael Ossipoff

On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 7:31 PM, Roger  wrote:

> Hi Jack and Michael,
>
>
>
> I don’t agree. The concept is very simple. Perhaps you have had bad
> teachers. One of my presentations at the upcoming conference is a purely
> grapghical method of designing an analemmatic sundial. No trig, not even
> geometry other than the Greek’s ruler and string or a simple math set with
> ruler, protractor and a compass.  From this graphical technique comes a
> whole new concept by  Chris Lusby Taylor for seasonal makers that I will
> describe at the conference next month.
>
>
>
> To demonstrate the simple concepts for analemmatic sundials, start with
> this experiment as a class activity, hands on and interactive. Cut out a
> circle of cardboard. Stick a pencil through the center at a right angle to
> the disc. Hold it with the pencil vertical. Look straight down on the disc,
> a circle true size. Hour angles drawn every 15° would also be true angles.
> The pencil is seen as a point. Now physically drop the disc and penci

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[rodwall1...@gmail.com]

Hi Rodger,
Thanks for the description on how to graphical design a analemmatic sundial.

It maybe me but I am having problems in following your instructions. I find it 
very hard to follow some parts like.

"Now physically drop the disc and pencil onto a horizontal table. Get down to 
view across the table and turn the disc to see it on edge. It will be seen as a 
true length straight line equal to the diameter of the circle."

Does this mean onto a table with legs, or are you referring to a table flat on 
the ground, the sundial is to be on the ground? When you get down onto the 
table. Which way do you face and which way do you turn the disc to see it on 
the edge? And how do you see the edge of the disc as a straight line and where 
does the true length fit in. 

It maybe me but I am lost as to what it means. Please don't think I am being 
negative. I just want to understand how to use this method to draw analemmatic 
sundials. I think it would be a great method if I could only understand it.

I don't know if you have the time to perhaps add some drawings to also show 
each step? I think some drawings may help me to understand it better. They say 
a drawing replaces a 1,000 words.

There also maybe teachers in this group who also find it hard to follow. They 
might want to use this method in their classroom.

Thank,

Roderick Wall.

- Reply message -
From: "Michael Ossipoff" 
To: "Roger" 
Cc: "sundial list" 
Subject: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?
Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2018 8:09 AM

Roger--

I re-emphasize that I'm not attacking the validity of your explanation. As
I said, the sundial-construction explanations based on an orthographic
projection never made sense to me. I'm not saying that they aren't valid,
only that weren't helpful to me.

It seems to me that, when you seek to explain the Analemmatic without the
trig, then, by the time you cover everything relevant to it, without
leaving unanswered questions--then you end up with something much more
complicated and difficult than the trig explanation.

Michael Ossipoff

On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 7:31 PM, Roger  wrote:

> Hi Jack and Michael,
>
>
>
> I don’t agree. The concept is very simple. Perhaps you have had bad
> teachers. One of my presentations at the upcoming conference is a purely
> grapghical method of designing an analemmatic sundial. No trig, not even
> geometry other than the Greek’s ruler and string or a simple math set with
> ruler, protractor and a compass.  From this graphical technique comes a
> whole new concept by  Chris Lusby Taylor for seasonal makers that I will
> describe at the conference next month.
>
>
>
> To demonstrate the simple concepts for analemmatic sundials, start with
> this experiment as a class activity, hands on and interactive. Cut out a
> circle of cardboard. Stick a pencil through the center at a right angle to
> the disc. Hold it with the pencil vertical. Look straight down on the disc,
> a circle true size. Hour angles drawn every 15° would also be true angles.
> The pencil is seen as a point. Now physically drop the disc and pencil onto
> a horizontal table. Get down to view across the table and turn the disc to
> see it on edge. It will be seen as a true length straight line equal to the
> diameter of the circle. The pencil will also be seen a true length line. If
> you chose the right length of pencil, the pencil will make an angle to the
> horizontal equal to your latitude. The disc will make an angle to the
> co-latitude.  Now get up and look straight down on the disc and pencil on
> the table. The disc will be seen as an ellipse and the pencil as a shorter
> line as neither disc or pencil are true length. Look at it straight down
> from above and mark the point on the desk that is directly under the end of
> the hour mark on the disk starting with the disc turned to the starting
> point noon being directly under the pencil. These points define. the hour
> ellipse for an analemmatic sundial.
>
>
>
> Next the enigmatic date line. Consider the sun shining down at noon at any
> day of the year onto the pencil through the disc on the table. The sun
> shines down on the pencil and there is a unique point on the pencil each
> day where the sun at noon shines directly onto the rim of the disc. At the
> summer solstice the sun is high in the sky. The angle of the suns ray down
> to the disc rim is at an angle of 23.5° to the disc. At the winter solstice
> the angle is -23.5 ° On the spring and fall equinox the angle is 0°. Every
> day has a different angle, the solar declination for that day. Now you
> could switch to ruler and protractor marking on paper right angle
>  triangles with the base equal to the disc radius. Measure angles from the
> base point up at the chosen declination angle and draw a line at that angle

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Ian Maddocks]

Hi Gents


Glad to see sundial education still being well discussed, though i fear we have 
quite a way to go.

In my Instagram trawls a while back was a video of a lady standing on an 
analemmatic dial

"It's a great sundial" she said, "You stand on your birthday"



Ian Maddocks
Chester, UK
53°11'50"N  2°52'41"W














From: Roger 
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 7:32 PM
To: Jack Aubert ; 'Michael Ossipoff' 
; 'sundial list' 
Subject: RE: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?



Hi Jack and Michael,



I don’t agree. The concept is very simple. Perhaps you have had bad teachers. 
One of my presentations at the upcoming conference is a purely grapghical 
method of designing an analemmatic sundial. No trig, not even geometry other 
than the Greek’s ruler and string or a simple math set with ruler, protractor 
and a compass.  From this graphical technique comes a whole new concept by  
Chris Lusby Taylor for seasonal makers that I will describe at the conference 
next month.



To demonstrate the simple concepts for analemmatic sundials, start with this 
experiment as a class activity, hands on and interactive. Cut out a circle of 
cardboard. Stick a pencil through the center at a right angle to the disc. Hold 
it with the pencil vertical. Look straight down on the disc, a circle true 
size. Hour angles drawn every 15° would also be true angles. The pencil is seen 
as a point. Now physically drop the disc and pencil onto a horizontal table. 
Get down to view across the table and turn the disc to see it on edge. It will 
be seen as a true length straight line equal to the diameter of the circle. The 
pencil will also be seen a true length line. If you chose the right length of 
pencil, the pencil will make an angle to the horizontal equal to your latitude. 
The disc will make an angle to the co-latitude.  Now get up and look straight 
down on the disc and pencil on the table. The disc will be seen as an ellipse 
and the pencil as a shorter line as neither disc or pencil are true length. 
Look at it straight down from above and mark the point on the desk that is 
directly under the end of the hour mark on the disk starting with the disc 
turned to the starting point noon being directly under the pencil. These points 
define. the hour ellipse for an analemmatic sundial.



Next the enigmatic date line. Consider the sun shining down at noon at any day 
of the year onto the pencil through the disc on the table. The sun shines down 
on the pencil and there is a unique point on the pencil each day where the sun 
at noon shines directly onto the rim of the disc. At the summer solstice the 
sun is high in the sky. The angle of the suns ray down to the disc rim is at an 
angle of 23.5° to the disc. At the winter solstice the angle is -23.5 ° On the 
spring and fall equinox the angle is 0°. Every day has a different angle, the 
solar declination for that day. Now you could switch to ruler and protractor 
marking on paper right angle  triangles with the base equal to the disc radius. 
Measure angles from the base point up at the chosen declination angle and draw 
a line at that angle to the line at right angles to the other end of the base 
line for the declination points for the chosen dates. Now draw a line for the 
horizon at an angle to the disc base line equal the latitude. Draw lines 
perpendicular to the horizon line to the chosen declination date points.  The 
points on the horizon line are the points where you stand on the analemmatic 
sundial.



In one class activity session all the kids with a good teacher could make their 
own analemmatic sundial based on these simple concepts. It involves simple 
tools  from the standard geometry set and a simple concept of looking at a 
circular disc with a rod through the center from different points of view.



The general problem is that sundials are not on the curriculum for any school 
boards. Teachers teach to the curriculum. The few teachers I have met in NASS 
are excellent but there are very few others are interested in such an 
extracurricular activity. Perhaps that is the value of a analemmatic sundial 
installation at a school would be to stimulate interest.



Regards, Roger Bailey

Walking Shadow Designs



From: Jack Aubert<mailto:j...@chezaubert.net>
Sent: July 17, 2018 6:27 AM
To: 'Michael Ossipoff'<mailto:email9648...@gmail.com>; 'sundial 
list'<mailto:sundial@uni-koeln.de>
Subject: RE: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?



I very much agree with this.  In fact, at the risk of sounding stupid, I have 
to confess that I don’t have an intuitive grasp of how an analemmatic dial 
works.  Yes, I have at various times gone through the explanation, but it does 
not stick in any way that I can mentally attach to the plane of the earth’s 
surface and the motion of the celestial sphere.  I know I could review the 
geometry and remember it if I tried but agree that the geometrical projecti

RE: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Jack Aubert]

It is widely unknown – or forgotten – that even the Roman Catholic Church did 
not actually reject the Copernican thesis outright.  It depended on what it the 
model was to be used for.  Astronomers were not prevented from using the 
heliocentric model for the purpose of calculating the course of the planets 
because it made the calculations enormously easier and more accurate.  The 
geocentric model was only required for theological purposes.  And, in fact, 
both perspectives are perfectly valid for their chosen purpose.  Any point in 
the universe can be arbitrarily selected as the fixed spot with respect to 
which everything else moves if you don’t need to calculate and predict their 
paths.  

 

Unfortunately children are not “permitted” to imagine the earth as the central 
fixed point.  Everybody knows that the earth revolves around the sun.  The sun 
does not revolve around the earth, silly!.  

 

But it is almost impossible to understand the daily motion of the stars, the 
sun and the seasons without adopting a geocentric perspective. 

 

Eppur se muove!

 

Jack Aubert

 



 

 

 

From: Steve Lelievre  
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 11:39 AM
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Cc: Jack Aubert 
Subject: Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

 


This reminds of an interview I read somewhere, with a former RAF instructor who 
taught survival navigation techniques for downed fighter pilots - no GPS or 
compass, just sun and stars. He said that one of frustrating parts of his job 
was that with every new class he had to un-teach the idea drummed into them at 
school that the Earth goes around the Sun, and not the other way round. The 
requisite skills came much faster to pilots who accepted the correction.

Steve

On 2018-07-18 1:51 PM, Jack Aubert wrote:



 

If I were doing the curriculum I would reintroduce the geocentric view of the 
solar system to complement the Copernican view.   

 

Jack

 

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Epistemology was: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi:

There's an excellent TED talk:
http://www.ted.com/talks/david_deutsch_a_new_way_to_explain_explanation?language=en
The best explanation is the one currently accepted by science.
This pointed me to many books by Karl Popper and was the root cause of the two 
axioms below my signature on this email.
Fundamentally all of science is provisional, i.e. there are no scientific facts.  This allows room for improvement. and 
is why civilization progressed post Enlightenment.

PS The above talk has much more meaning after reading Popper.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how 
well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

 Original Message 


This reminds of an interview I read somewhere, with a former RAF instructor who taught survival navigation techniques 
for downed fighter pilots - no GPS or compass, just sun and stars. He said that one of frustrating parts of his job 
was that with every new class he had to un-teach the idea drummed into them at school that the Earth goes around the 
Sun, and not the other way round. The requisite skills came much faster to pilots who accepted the correction.


Steve

On 2018-07-18 1:51 PM, Jack Aubert wrote:





If I were doing the curriculum I would reintroduce the geocentric view of the solar system to complement the 
Copernican view.


Jack





---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial



---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Epistemology was: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi:

There's an excellent TED talk:
http://www.ted.com/talks/david_deutsch_a_new_way_to_explain_explanation?language=en
The best explanation is the one currently accepted by science.
This pointed me to many books by Karl Popper and was the root cause of the two 
axioms below my signature on this email.
Fundamentally all of science is provisional, i.e. there are no scientific facts.  This allows room for improvement. and 
is why civilization progressed post Enlightenment.

PS The above talk has much more meaning after reading Popper.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how 
well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

 Original Message 


This reminds of an interview I read somewhere, with a former RAF instructor who taught survival navigation techniques 
for downed fighter pilots - no GPS or compass, just sun and stars. He said that one of frustrating parts of his job 
was that with every new class he had to un-teach the idea drummed into them at school that the Earth goes around the 
Sun, and not the other way round. The requisite skills came much faster to pilots who accepted the correction.


Steve

On 2018-07-18 1:51 PM, Jack Aubert wrote:





If I were doing the curriculum I would reintroduce the geocentric view of the solar system to complement the 
Copernican view.


Jack





---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial



---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Steve Lelievre]

This reminds of an interview I read somewhere, with a former RAF 
instructor who taught survival navigation techniques for downed fighter 
pilots - no GPS or compass, just sun and stars. He said that one of 
frustrating parts of his job was that with every new class he had to 
un-teach the idea drummed into them at school that the Earth goes around 
the Sun, and not the other way round. The requisite skills came much 
faster to pilots who accepted the correction.


Steve

On 2018-07-18 1:51 PM, Jack Aubert wrote:





If I were doing the curriculum I would reintroduce the geocentric view 
of the solar system to complement the Copernican view.


Jack



---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Michael Ossipoff]

Roger--

I'm not sayings that the vertical projection isn't part of a valid
explanation, and I'm not even claiming to set myself up to say that your
explanation wasn't.

Now that you mention it, I've heard of sundial layout derivations using an
orthographic projection.

And I never found those derivations to be the ones that showed me anything,
though, as I said, I don't presume to say that they aren't valid, or that
yours isn't valid.   ...only that I myself didn't find them helpful.

So, since I perceive those explanations as more difficult, then I don't
perceive them as likely to be helpful to gradeschool students.

Michael Ossipoff



On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 7:31 PM, Roger  wrote:

> Hi Jack and Michael,
>
>
>
> I don’t agree. The concept is very simple. Perhaps you have had bad
> teachers. One of my presentations at the upcoming conference is a purely
> grapghical method of designing an analemmatic sundial. No trig, not even
> geometry other than the Greek’s ruler and string or a simple math set with
> ruler, protractor and a compass.  From this graphical technique comes a
> whole new concept by  Chris Lusby Taylor for seasonal makers that I will
> describe at the conference next month.
>
>
>
> To demonstrate the simple concepts for analemmatic sundials, start with
> this experiment as a class activity, hands on and interactive. Cut out a
> circle of cardboard. Stick a pencil through the center at a right angle to
> the disc. Hold it with the pencil vertical. Look straight down on the disc,
> a circle true size. Hour angles drawn every 15° would also be true angles.
> The pencil is seen as a point. Now physically drop the disc and pencil onto
> a horizontal table. Get down to view across the table and turn the disc to
> see it on edge. It will be seen as a true length straight line equal to the
> diameter of the circle. The pencil will also be seen a true length line. If
> you chose the right length of pencil, the pencil will make an angle to the
> horizontal equal to your latitude. The disc will make an angle to the
> co-latitude.  Now get up and look straight down on the disc and pencil on
> the table. The disc will be seen as an ellipse and the pencil as a shorter
> line as neither disc or pencil are true length. Look at it straight down
> from above and mark the point on the desk that is directly under the end of
> the hour mark on the disk starting with the disc turned to the starting
> point noon being directly under the pencil. These points define. the hour
> ellipse for an analemmatic sundial.
>
>
>
> Next the enigmatic date line. Consider the sun shining down at noon at any
> day of the year onto the pencil through the disc on the table. The sun
> shines down on the pencil and there is a unique point on the pencil each
> day where the sun at noon shines directly onto the rim of the disc. At the
> summer solstice the sun is high in the sky. The angle of the suns ray down
> to the disc rim is at an angle of 23.5° to the disc. At the winter solstice
> the angle is -23.5 ° On the spring and fall equinox the angle is 0°. Every
> day has a different angle, the solar declination for that day. Now you
> could switch to ruler and protractor marking on paper right angle
>  triangles with the base equal to the disc radius. Measure angles from the
> base point up at the chosen declination angle and draw a line at that angle
> to the line at right angles to the other end of the base line for the
> declination points for the chosen dates. Now draw a line for the horizon at
> an angle to the disc base line equal the latitude. Draw lines perpendicular
> to the horizon line to the chosen declination date points.  The points on
> the horizon line are the points where you stand on the analemmatic sundial.
>
>
>
> In one class activity session all the kids with a good teacher could make
> their own analemmatic sundial based on these simple concepts. It involves
> simple tools  from the standard geometry set and a simple concept of
> looking at a circular disc with a rod through the center from different
> points of view.
>
>
>
> The general problem is that sundials are not on the curriculum for any
> school boards. Teachers teach to the curriculum. The few teachers I have
> met in NASS are excellent but there are very few others are interested in
> such an extracurricular activity. Perhaps that is the value of a
> analemmatic sundial installation at a school would be to stimulate interest.
>
>
>
> Regards, Roger Bailey
>
> Walking Shadow Designs
>
>
>
> *From: *Jack Aubert 
> *Sent: *July 17, 2018 6:27 AM
> *To: *'Michael Ossipoff' ; 'sundial list'
> 
> *Subject: *RE: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?
>
>
>
> I very much agree with this.  

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[rodwall1...@gmail.com]

Hi Roger and Mitchael,
I'm sure others have thought of and have used these concepts before us. 
Sundials have been around for a long time.

What these concepts achieves are:

That all clocks have a energy source to make them work. For sundials it is the 
rotation of Earth. And that planet Earth rotates (moves) in relation to the 
sun. It is not the sun that moves. We often say that the sun moves across the 
sky. But it is planet Earth that rotates and moves. This is important to be 
able to fully understand how a sundial works.

It also shows that sundials are geared to the rotation of planet Earth wherever 
they are located on Earth. It completes what makes the sundial moves in 
relation to the sun.

Once the concept on how a Equatorial sundial or disk dial works at the South or 
North pole works. The Equatorial sundial or disk sundial can then be used to 
draw the hour lines on a horizontal or vertical sundial. There is a complete 
connection between all concepts. Not just part of it.

And it describes it for both hemispheres not just for the Northern hemisphere. 
Sundial are also located in the Southern hemisphere.

It can also be used to show that sundial hours on the dial face runs clockwise 
in the Northern hemisphere and anticlockwise in the southern hemisphere. 

I remember reading somewhere that. The reason that clock hours run clockwise is 
because sundials in the Northern hemisphere had their hours running clockwise. 
Someone may like to comment as to if this is true.

In a classroom a globe or beach ball can be used to show the above concepts. 
Then the students could then use a Equatorial or disk sundial to draw hour 
lines on their own sundial. Then go outside in the sun to test their sundial. 
But 1st make sure they have their hats on and suntan oil on to protect them 
from the sun. That is what they do in sunny Australia.

Have fun,

Roderick Wall.

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

RE: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Jack Aubert]

HI Roger,

 

The layout is not the problem.  That’s relatively easy.  The problem is keeping 
an image of the relationship between the three dimensional sky and two 
dimensional earth in your head so that it makes intuitive sense, particularly 
if you are just a kid.

 

We are dealing with a projection of the equatorial circle of an armillary 
sphere onto the ground which becomes an ellipse with hour points along it.  The 
projection of the axial gnomon is just a line and doesn’t work for telling 
time.  Instead, we have to locate a point on that line, which could be its end. 
 That point has to move back and forth along the axis throughout the year: your 
magical pencil, which is able to shorten and lengthen as needed.  Why do we 
have to do that?  Well that’s another story we will skip for today.   But when 
we are done, we throw away the circle and the magic pencil and are left with an 
ellipse on the ground plus a stick (or a person’s head ) that has to move north 
and south depending on the date according to a secret formula.   

 

So first you have to imagine the polar dial as a hoop, translate it to an 
elliptical projection, and then imagine a magic pencil that projects its tip 
onto the ellipse.   It is not so easy hold all the construction imagery in your 
head so that you can relate it all back to the celestial sphere with the sun on 
it.  Not only that, but they never told you about the celestial sphere in the 
first place.  They probably told you that the sun is at the center of the solar 
system and the earth rotates and orbits around it.Good luck imagining how 
that explains what you see in the sky every day.

 

If I were doing the curriculum I would reintroduce the geocentric view of the 
solar system to complement the Copernican view.   

 

Jack

 

 

   

 

 

 

From: Roger  
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 7:32 PM
To: Jack Aubert ; 'Michael Ossipoff' 
; 'sundial list' 
Subject: RE: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

 

Hi Jack and Michael,

 

I don’t agree. The concept is very simple. Perhaps you have had bad teachers. 
One of my presentations at the upcoming conference is a purely grapghical 
method of designing an analemmatic sundial. No trig, not even geometry other 
than the Greek’s ruler and string or a simple math set with ruler, protractor 
and a compass.  From this graphical technique comes a whole new concept by  
Chris Lusby Taylor for seasonal makers that I will describe at the conference 
next month.

 

To demonstrate the simple concepts for analemmatic sundials, start with this 
experiment as a class activity, hands on and interactive. Cut out a circle of 
cardboard. Stick a pencil through the center at a right angle to the disc. Hold 
it with the pencil vertical. Look straight down on the disc, a circle true 
size. Hour angles drawn every 15° would also be true angles. The pencil is seen 
as a point. Now physically drop the disc and pencil onto a horizontal table. 
Get down to view across the table and turn the disc to see it on edge. It will 
be seen as a true length straight line equal to the diameter of the circle. The 
pencil will also be seen a true length line. If you chose the right length of 
pencil, the pencil will make an angle to the horizontal equal to your latitude. 
The disc will make an angle to the co-latitude.  Now get up and look straight 
down on the disc and pencil on the table. The disc will be seen as an ellipse 
and the pencil as a shorter line as neither disc or pencil are true length. 
Look at it straight down from above and mark the point on the desk that is 
directly under the end of the hour mark on the disk starting with the disc 
turned to the starting point noon being directly under the pencil. These points 
define. the hour ellipse for an analemmatic sundial.

 

Next the enigmatic date line. Consider the sun shining down at noon at any day 
of the year onto the pencil through the disc on the table. The sun shines down 
on the pencil and there is a unique point on the pencil each day where the sun 
at noon shines directly onto the rim of the disc. At the summer solstice the 
sun is high in the sky. The angle of the suns ray down to the disc rim is at an 
angle of 23.5° to the disc. At the winter solstice the angle is -23.5 ° On the 
spring and fall equinox the angle is 0°. Every day has a different angle, the 
solar declination for that day. Now you could switch to ruler and protractor 
marking on paper right angle  triangles with the base equal to the disc radius. 
Measure angles from the base point up at the chosen declination angle and draw 
a line at that angle to the line at right angles to the other end of the base 
line for the declination points for the chosen dates. Now draw a line for the 
horizon at an angle to the disc base line equal the latitude. Draw lines 
perpendicular to the horizon line to the chosen declination date points.  The 
points on the horizon line are the points where you

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Michael Ossipoff]

When I mentioned (at least hypothetically) a mechanical method and an
empirical method for constructing a Reclining-Declining Dial, they were
intended as ways to assure someone that s/he knows of a way that such a
dial can be constructed.   (I feel that it's unsatisfying to own, use, or
visit a sundial (or use a map-projection) whose construction-explanation
you haven't heard.

...though of course the empirical method that I described is perfectly
do-able without difficulty.

But there's another empirical method that's a lot easier to build than the
mechanical method, and a lot faster than the empirical method that I
described. It combines attributes of both of them:

On a flat plywood base, on the ground, build and fassten a Disk-Equatorial
or a Band-Equatorial dial.  Under that dial's gnomon, make and fasten a
block or plate having a surface that's oriented to the base, and to the
gnomon-north of the Equatorial, in the same manner that you want your
Reclining-Declining Dial to have with the horizontal and north.

Directly under the Equatorial's gnomon (as determined by a plumb-line or
T-Square) contact a stick with the base.  By Plumb-line or T-square, ensure
that the entire stick is directly under the Equatorial's gnomon. By
measuring the stick's length and it's high-end's height, you can make its
angle to the base equal to that of the Equtorial's gnomon.  So, when the
stick is fastened in that orientation, it's parallel to the gnomon of the
Equatorial.

(...further checkable by vertical ruler-measurements between both ends of
the stick and the Equatorial.)

Now, out in the sunlight, rotate the base until the equatorial's
gnomon-shadow point to one of its hour (or half-hour) lines. Then mark a
line on the block or plate representing the Reclining-Declining surface.
That's the same hour-line, for for the Reclining-Declining Dial.

Do that for every one of the Equatorial's hour-lines.

If necessary, of course, the base could be tipped upward at one end, with
that end resting on a boulder, tree-stump, box, etc.   ...or leaned on a
house, or laid on an inclined-surface. The orientation of the base doesn't
matter, as long as it's in the sunlight, and it's oriented so that the
Equatorial Dial's gnomon-shadow is on an hour-line.

Then, of course copy the hour-lines on your Reclining-Declining model to
the actual Reclining-Declining Dial that you want to build.

Michael Ossipoff





On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 2:10 PM, Michael Ossipoff 
wrote:

> Yes, the central-gnomon Equatorial dials, with their gnomon parallel to
> the Earth's axis, and their circular measuring-scale parallel to plane of
> the equator is educational, because its measurement of Solar Time is
> completely direct.
>
> And yes, you're quite right: The construction of the Horizontal Dial is
> easily described in terms of a central-gnomon equatorial (...say, a
> Disk-Equatorial). Stand a disk-equatorial with its disk resting on the
> ground and its gnomon (by choosing the right length for it) parallel to the
> Earth's axis. Draw an east-west line through the point where the disk
> contacts the ground.
>
> Extend the Disk-Equatorial's radial hour-lines (as "rays") to where they
> meet that east-west line on the ground.
>
> Obviously, when the gnomon's shadow is along a radial hour-line of the
> Disk-Equatorial, it will also go to the point where that ray meets the
> ground. So draw a line from the ground-contacting end of the gnomon to that
> point on the east-west line.
>
> And then you've constructed a Horizontal Dial.
>
> There's a widely-distributed graphical construction instruction that
> models that construction.
>
> The formula:
>
> tan A = sin lat tan h
>
> ...comes directly from that construction.
>
> And yes, as I said in one of my recent posts here, any Vertical or
> Reclining (but not Declining) flat dial can easily be shown to be a
> horizontal dial for a different latitudedemonstrable with a globe.
>
> Of course the broad category that I described in the paragraph before this
> one includes the Horizontal Dial, Disk Equatorial, and the Polar Dial as
> special cases.
>
> So yes, all of what you said is true, but it's all surely been out there
> for a long time. Dialing or dyalling has been studied and described for a
> long time.
>
> I outlined a 5-day set of discussions to explain the construction of the
> Reclining-Declining Dial.
>
> I'll just add that of course it's obvious that there are ways in which a
> 3D working model of the 3 relevant co-ordinate-systems (Horizontal,
> Equatorial, and Dial-Plate) could be made and used to construct a
> Reclining-Declining Dial. I mention that to show that it's possible to
> truly tell someone that they know of a way that such a dial could be made,
> even if they haven't heard the 5-day explanation that I suggested.
>
> Or, as someone (but probably more than one person) else has suggested one
> could also start with a Relining-Declining surface, and experimentally,
> with a plumb-line, and 

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Michael Ossipoff]

Yes, the central-gnomon Equatorial dials, with their gnomon parallel to the
Earth's axis, and their circular measuring-scale parallel to plane of the
equator is educational, because its measurement of Solar Time is completely
direct.

And yes, you're quite right: The construction of the Horizontal Dial is
easily described in terms of a central-gnomon equatorial (...say, a
Disk-Equatorial). Stand a disk-equatorial with its disk resting on the
ground and its gnomon (by choosing the right length for it) parallel to the
Earth's axis. Draw an east-west line through the point where the disk
contacts the ground.

Extend the Disk-Equatorial's radial hour-lines (as "rays") to where they
meet that east-west line on the ground.

Obviously, when the gnomon's shadow is along a radial hour-line of the
Disk-Equatorial, it will also go to the point where that ray meets the
ground. So draw a line from the ground-contacting end of the gnomon to that
point on the east-west line.

And then you've constructed a Horizontal Dial.

There's a widely-distributed graphical construction instruction that models
that construction.

The formula:

tan A = sin lat tan h

...comes directly from that construction.

And yes, as I said in one of my recent posts here, any Vertical or
Reclining (but not Declining) flat dial can easily be shown to be a
horizontal dial for a different latitudedemonstrable with a globe.

Of course the broad category that I described in the paragraph before this
one includes the Horizontal Dial, Disk Equatorial, and the Polar Dial as
special cases.

So yes, all of what you said is true, but it's all surely been out there
for a long time. Dialing or dyalling has been studied and described for a
long time.

I outlined a 5-day set of discussions to explain the construction of the
Reclining-Declining Dial.

I'll just add that of course it's obvious that there are ways in which a 3D
working model of the 3 relevant co-ordinate-systems (Horizontal,
Equatorial, and Dial-Plate) could be made and used to construct a
Reclining-Declining Dial. I mention that to show that it's possible to
truly tell someone that they know of a way that such a dial could be made,
even if they haven't heard the 5-day explanation that I suggested.

Or, as someone (but probably more than one person) else has suggested one
could also start with a Relining-Declining surface, and experimentally,
with a plumb-line, and a compass, north-star or pre-made landmark, align a
stick (in contact with the surface) so that it's 1) pointing northward, and
2) elevated above the horizontal by an angle equal to your latitude.
...and, from that, build the gnomon.

...and then, using, as reference-dial, any one of the Horizontal, Reclining
or Vertical (or Equatorial or Polar) dials described above, hour lines
could be drawn on the reclining declining surface where the style-shadow
is, when the reference dial says that it's a certain time.

That might sound like cheating, but it's a legitimate way that such a dial
could be constructed, and for anyone who doesn't want to hear the 5-day
explanation, it's way that you could remind someone that they could make
such a dial.

Michael Ossipoff





On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 7:13 PM, rodwall1...@gmail.com <
rodwall1...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> The following is what I think is the best way to describe how sundials
> work to kids or anyone.
>
>
> 1st start with the largest sundial in the world. Planet Earth the Master
> sundial clock. Stick a vertical stick into the ground at the South pole or
> North pole. And describe how the shadow shows the time throughout the day.
> Draw the 24 hour lines every 15 deg and that 15 deg x 24 hours = 360 deg
> one day.
>
> Then show how the Equatorial sundial relates to our stick sundial at the
> poles. Place it at the South or North pole. And show that the Equatorial
> sundial style edge is parallel with the stick and the axis of the Earth.
> And that the hour lines are the same every 15 deg. And that it will keep
> the same time.
>
> Then place the Equatorial sundial anywhere on earth. And show that the
> sundial is geared to Earth the largest sundial in the world (the Master
> sundial clock). Therefore it will keep the same time. Show how the sundial
> time markings relate to your local time. And that the style edge of the
> sundial must be parallel with the axis of the earth and parallel with the
> vertical stick at the poles. And that at night time the sundial is in the
> shadow of Earth.
>
> Then place a horizontal sundial at the same location. And describe that
> the style edge is also placed parallel with the stick and the axis of the
> Earth. And how the hour lines are projected every 15 deg from the
> horizontal sundial style. That is to place the style edge of the equatorial
> sundial onto the horizontal sundial style edge and use it to project the
> hour points onto the horizontal base of the horizontal sundial. Then draw
> the hour lines on the horizontal sundial. Then 

RE: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Roger]

Hi Rod,

We both have the same concept. I applied it to analemmatic sundials. You 
applied it to equatorial, horizontal and vertical sundials. When I go to NASS 
conferences or talk to groups I generally carry a disc and rod. All sundials 
start with a polar gnomon and equatorial disc.

Roger Bailey
Walking Shadow Designs


From: rodwall1...@gmail.com
Sent: July 17, 2018 4:14 PM
To: Michael Ossipoff; Steve Lelievre
Cc: sundial list
Subject: Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

Hi all,

The following is what I think is the best way to describe how sundials work to 
kids or anyone.


1st start with the largest sundial in the world. Planet Earth the Master 
sundial clock. Stick a vertical stick into the ground at the South pole or 
North pole. And describe how the shadow shows the time throughout the day. Draw 
the 24 hour lines every 15 deg and that 15 deg x 24 hours = 360 deg one day.

Then show how the Equatorial sundial relates to our stick sundial at the poles. 
Place it at the South or North pole. And show that the Equatorial sundial style 
edge is parallel with the stick and the axis of the Earth. And that the hour 
lines are the same every 15 deg. And that it will keep the same time.

Then place the Equatorial sundial anywhere on earth. And show that the sundial 
is geared to Earth the largest sundial in the world (the Master sundial clock). 
Therefore it will keep the same time. Show how the sundial time markings relate 
to your local time. And that the style edge of the sundial must be parallel 
with the axis of the earth and parallel with the vertical stick at the poles. 
And that at night time the sundial is in the shadow of Earth.

Then place a horizontal sundial at the same location. And describe that the 
style edge is also placed parallel with the stick and the axis of the Earth. 
And how the hour lines are projected every 15 deg from the horizontal sundial 
style. That is to place the style edge of the equatorial sundial onto the 
horizontal sundial style edge and use it to project the hour points onto the 
horizontal base of the horizontal sundial. Then draw the hour lines on the 
horizontal sundial. Then show the direction the horizontal sundial faces if in 
the Southern hemisphere or Northern hemisphere. To ensure that the Style edge 
is parallel with the axis of the Earth and stick.

Then go through the same process as you did for the horizontal sundial but with 
a vertical sundial on a wall. And show that it must face North towards the sun 
if in the southern hemisphere and face South for the northern hemisphere. Yes I 
live in sunny Australia in the southern hemisphere.

Then show how the angle of the style edge relates to the latitude of the 
location of the sundial. To make the style edge parallel with the stick and 
axis of the Earth.

Depending on how far you want to go. Describe how a horizontal sundial that is 
not designed for the  latitude of the location you are at. Can be corrected if 
a block is placed under the dial to make the style edge parallel with the axis 
of the Earth and the stick.

Describe how longitude relates to your location. And that the longitude time 
zones are every 15 deg. 15 deg x 24 hours = 360 deg one day.

One way to describe the above is to use a globe of the world or a large beach 
ball. With cardboard cutouts for sundials. And a lamp (sun) to make the 
shadows. Young kids and some adults learn better when learning in the sand pit 
(concrete learning) rather that just using symbolic words (symbolic learning).

That is how I explain it.

If anyone wants to publish the above. Please do and let them know where it came 
from.

Have fun,

Roderick Wall
Sunny Australia.



---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

RE: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Roger]

Hi Jack and Michael,

I don’t agree. The concept is very simple. Perhaps you have had bad teachers. 
One of my presentations at the upcoming conference is a purely grapghical 
method of designing an analemmatic sundial. No trig, not even geometry other 
than the Greek’s ruler and string or a simple math set with ruler, protractor 
and a compass.  From this graphical technique comes a whole new concept by  
Chris Lusby Taylor for seasonal makers that I will describe at the conference 
next month.

To demonstrate the simple concepts for analemmatic sundials, start with this 
experiment as a class activity, hands on and interactive. Cut out a circle of 
cardboard. Stick a pencil through the center at a right angle to the disc. Hold 
it with the pencil vertical. Look straight down on the disc, a circle true 
size. Hour angles drawn every 15° would also be true angles. The pencil is seen 
as a point. Now physically drop the disc and pencil onto a horizontal table. 
Get down to view across the table and turn the disc to see it on edge. It will 
be seen as a true length straight line equal to the diameter of the circle. The 
pencil will also be seen a true length line. If you chose the right length of 
pencil, the pencil will make an angle to the horizontal equal to your latitude. 
The disc will make an angle to the co-latitude.  Now get up and look straight 
down on the disc and pencil on the table. The disc will be seen as an ellipse 
and the pencil as a shorter line as neither disc or pencil are true length. 
Look at it straight down from above and mark the point on the desk that is 
directly under the end of the hour mark on the disk starting with the disc 
turned to the starting point noon being directly under the pencil. These points 
define. the hour ellipse for an analemmatic sundial.

Next the enigmatic date line. Consider the sun shining down at noon at any day 
of the year onto the pencil through the disc on the table. The sun shines down 
on the pencil and there is a unique point on the pencil each day where the sun 
at noon shines directly onto the rim of the disc. At the summer solstice the 
sun is high in the sky. The angle of the suns ray down to the disc rim is at an 
angle of 23.5° to the disc. At the winter solstice the angle is -23.5 ° On the 
spring and fall equinox the angle is 0°. Every day has a different angle, the 
solar declination for that day. Now you could switch to ruler and protractor 
marking on paper right angle  triangles with the base equal to the disc radius. 
Measure angles from the base point up at the chosen declination angle and draw 
a line at that angle to the line at right angles to the other end of the base 
line for the declination points for the chosen dates. Now draw a line for the 
horizon at an angle to the disc base line equal the latitude. Draw lines 
perpendicular to the horizon line to the chosen declination date points.  The 
points on the horizon line are the points where you stand on the analemmatic 
sundial. 

In one class activity session all the kids with a good teacher could make their 
own analemmatic sundial based on these simple concepts. It involves simple 
tools  from the standard geometry set and a simple concept of looking at a 
circular disc with a rod through the center from different points of view.

The general problem is that sundials are not on the curriculum for any school 
boards. Teachers teach to the curriculum. The few teachers I have met in NASS 
are excellent but there are very few others are interested in such an 
extracurricular activity. Perhaps that is the value of a analemmatic sundial 
installation at a school would be to stimulate interest.

Regards, Roger Bailey
Walking Shadow Designs

From: Jack Aubert
Sent: July 17, 2018 6:27 AM
To: 'Michael Ossipoff'; 'sundial list'
Subject: RE: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

I very much agree with this.  In fact, at the risk of sounding stupid, I have 
to confess that I don’t have an intuitive grasp of how an analemmatic dial 
works.  Yes, I have at various times gone through the explanation, but it does 
not stick in any way that I can mentally attach to the plane of the earth’s 
surface and the motion of the celestial sphere.  I know I could review the 
geometry and remember it if I tried but agree that the geometrical projections 
involved are beyond the grasp of almost all children and almost all adults.     
 

Jack

From: sundial  On Behalf Of Michael Ossipoff
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 12:29 AM
To: sundial list 
Subject: Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?


To continue something that I started before:

The derivation of the construction of the Analemmatic could be explained to 
anyone, with 3 lesson-sessions, over 3 days.

Yes, an Analemmatic Dial could be educational, when it gives people incentive 
to study, read about or listen to the dial's derivation, is 
construction-explanation.

So the Analemmatic with its trigonometry requirement, could

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[rodwall1...@gmail.com]

Hi all,
The following is what I think is the best way to describe how sundials work to 
kids or anyone.


1st start with the largest sundial in the world. Planet Earth the Master 
sundial clock. Stick a vertical stick into the ground at the South pole or 
North pole. And describe how the shadow shows the time throughout the day. Draw 
the 24 hour lines every 15 deg and that 15 deg x 24 hours = 360 deg one day.

Then show how the Equatorial sundial relates to our stick sundial at the poles. 
Place it at the South or North pole. And show that the Equatorial sundial style 
edge is parallel with the stick and the axis of the Earth. And that the hour 
lines are the same every 15 deg. And that it will keep the same time.

Then place the Equatorial sundial anywhere on earth. And show that the sundial 
is geared to Earth the largest sundial in the world (the Master sundial clock). 
Therefore it will keep the same time. Show how the sundial time markings relate 
to your local time. And that the style edge of the sundial must be parallel 
with the axis of the earth and parallel with the vertical stick at the poles. 
And that at night time the sundial is in the shadow of Earth.

Then place a horizontal sundial at the same location. And describe that the 
style edge is also placed parallel with the stick and the axis of the Earth. 
And how the hour lines are projected every 15 deg from the horizontal sundial 
style. That is to place the style edge of the equatorial sundial onto the 
horizontal sundial style edge and use it to project the hour points onto the 
horizontal base of the horizontal sundial. Then draw the hour lines on the 
horizontal sundial. Then show the direction the horizontal sundial faces if in 
the Southern hemisphere or Northern hemisphere. To ensure that the Style edge 
is parallel with the axis of the Earth and stick.

Then go through the same process as you did for the horizontal sundial but with 
a vertical sundial on a wall. And show that it must face North towards the sun 
if in the southern hemisphere and face South for the northern hemisphere. Yes I 
live in sunny Australia in the southern hemisphere.

Then show how the angle of the style edge relates to the latitude of the 
location of the sundial. To make the style edge parallel with the stick and 
axis of the Earth.

Depending on how far you want to go. Describe how a horizontal sundial that is 
not designed for the  latitude of the location you are at. Can be corrected if 
a block is placed under the dial to make the style edge parallel with the axis 
of the Earth and the stick.

Describe how longitude relates to your location. And that the longitude time 
zones are every 15 deg. 15 deg x 24 hours = 360 deg one day.

One way to describe the above is to use a globe of the world or a large beach 
ball. With cardboard cutouts for sundials. And a lamp (sun) to make the 
shadows. Young kids and some adults learn better when learning in the sand pit 
(concrete learning) rather that just using symbolic words (symbolic learning).

That is how I explain it.

If anyone wants to publish the above. Please do and let them know where it came 
from.

Have fun,

Roderick Wall
Sunny Australia.

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

RE: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Astrovisuals]

I agree, I find the analemmatic dial very hard to grasp; the geometry is 
hard to get your head around.

I may be biased, but I think the Sun Disc is a better educational tool!
http://www.astrovisuals.com.au/SunDisc.html

* David Widdowson, ASTROVISUALS, *AUSTRALIA
EMAIL: mailto:m...@astrovisuals.com.au
WEB: http://www.astrovisuals.com.au/
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From: sundial-requ...@uni-koeln.de

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Today's Topics:

  1. RE: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not? (Jack Aubert)
  2. Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not? (Michael Ossipoff)


--

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:23:52 -0400
From: "Jack Aubert" 
To: "'Michael Ossipoff'" , "'sundial list'"

Subject: RE: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?
Message-ID: <0bd601d41dd1$6785f670$3691e350$@chezaubert.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I very much agree with this.  In fact, at the risk of sounding stupid, I 
have to confess that I don?t have an intuitive grasp of how an analemmatic 
dial works.  Yes, I have at various times gone through the explanation, but 
it does not stick in any way that I can mentally attach to the plane of the 
earth?s surface and the motion of the celestial sphere.  I know I could 
review the geometry and remember it if I tried but agree that the 
geometrical projections involved are beyond the grasp of almost all children 
and almost all adults.




Jack



From: sundial  On Behalf Of Michael Ossipoff
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 12:29 AM
To: sundial list 
Subject: Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?





To continue something that I started before:



The derivation of the construction of the Analemmatic could be explained to 
anyone, with 3 lesson-sessions, over 3 days.




Yes, an Analemmatic Dial could be educational, when it gives people 
incentive to study, read about or listen to the dial's derivation, is 
construction-explanation.




So the Analemmatic with its trigonometry requirement, could be useful, 
helpful, educational, at a highschool (secondary school), college or 
university.




...but not at an elementary-school (primary school), okay? How many 
elementary-school kids would want to listen to that explanation?




Will someone tell me how an Analemmatic Dial would be educational at an 
elementary-school?




There was a line in the movie "Fatal Attraction", in which the mother is 
considering taking their primary-school child with her, when she goes to 
visit her father (probably for the purpose of looking at a nearby house that 
they're considering purchasing).  The Father questions whether the child 
should miss school by going on the visit. The mother replies, "What's she 
going to miss, trigonometry?"




What dial's explanation would be of interest to an elementary-school 
audience?  Any of the Central-Gnomon Equatorial dials, such as the 
Disk-Equatorial, Band-Equatorial and Cylinder-Equatorial (with central 
gnomon). Their showing of Solar Time is completely direct.




The Horizontal Dial's explanation is brief, and might very well be 
acceptable, of interest, to many elementary-school students,.




Vertical or Reclining, but non-Declining, Flat Dials might not be 
significantly more difficult to explain, since they're just horizontal dials 
for a different latitude.   ...demonstrable with a globe.




So, if some of the kids are little vandals, you could install a South 
Vertical Dial, bracket-mounted high on a wall (or flat-mounted on a 
south-wall).




The Circumference-Aperture Cylindrical Equatorial Dial would be easier to 
explain than the Analemmatic, but its explanation might still only be of 
interest to highschool students.




...because of its geometric diagram, with its triangles, with letter-labeled 
angles, and the equations relating its angles--and the making of new 
equations by doing the same thing to both sides of an equation, or adding or 
subtracting two equations, or substituting one equal thing for another in an 
equation--sounds like a secondary-school topic.




Well, probably pre-secondary school (junior-high, middle-school) kids too, 
because when I was in junior-high, our general-math class introduced 
equation-solving.




...but I don't know if there would be much interest in it in primary-school. 
I don't kno

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Steve Lelievre]

Sure, any type of dial is fine if it works for the situation.

And apologies to all for the typos in my last message. I think my PC had 
auto-obfuscate turned on.


Steve

On 2018-07-17 11:07 AM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
Insisting on limiting it to central-gnomon Equatorials sounds unfair to 
students motivated to look at other dials.



---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Michael Ossipoff]

I'd said:

I suggest 3 separate discussions, preferably on subsequent days:

1. The Equatorial and Horizontal spherical co-ordinate-systems.

2. The definitions of the sine, cosine and tangent

3. The application of #2 to #1, for determining the Sun's azimuth.

That azimuth formula that that leads to directly gives the Analemmatic
Dial's layout.



For the general Reclining-Declining Flat Dial, it could be 5-day series of
discussions::

1. The Equatorial and Horizontal spherical co-ordinate-systems.

2. The definitions of the sine, cosine and tangent

3. The application of #2 to #1, for determining the Sun's altitude and
azimuth, from its h and dec.

4. The generalization of #3 to any two co-ordinate systems.

5. The application of #4 to the Reclining-Declining Dial.

---

We've discussed, here, how the Regiomontanus' construction is derived from
the formula for Solar altitude.

(The Regiomontanus is a portable universal card-altitude dial.)

The Marke Dial is another portable universal card-altitude dial whose
construction is also derived from the altitude formula.

--

It occurs to me that the explanation for the Analemmatic is available in
various sources, and so there probably isn't reason to take up space here
by posting it, unless there are one or more particular requests for it.

--

Michael Ossipoff









On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Michael Ossipoff 
wrote:

>
> Jack--
>
> And it seems to me that it wouldn't be satisfying, having and using a
> sundial, without a complete explanation of its construction-derivation.
>
> You wouldn't have any trouble with the explanation. It's just that it's a
> bit long.
>
> I suggest 3 separate discussions, preferably on subsequent days:
>
> 1. The Equatorial and Horizontal spherical co-ordinate-systems.
>
> 2. The definitions of the sine, cosine and tangent
>
> 3. The application of #2 to #1, for determining the Sun's azimuth.
>
> That azimuth formula that that leads to directly gives the Analemmatic
> Dial's layout.
>
> Let me just send this post now, and then (maybe this morning, probably
> this afternoon, but maybe Wednesday morning) start saying something about
> topic #1, above.
>
> Michael Ossipoff
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 9:23 AM, Jack Aubert  wrote:
>
>> I very much agree with this.  In fact, at the risk of sounding stupid, I
>> have to confess that I don’t have an intuitive grasp of how an analemmatic
>> dial works.  Yes, I have at various times gone through the explanation, but
>> it does not stick in any way that I can mentally attach to the plane of the
>> earth’s surface and the motion of the celestial sphere.  I know I could
>> review the geometry and remember it if I tried but agree that the
>> geometrical projections involved are beyond the grasp of almost all
>> children and almost all adults.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jack
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* sundial  *On Behalf Of *Michael
>> Ossipoff
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 17, 2018 12:29 AM
>> *To:* sundial list 
>> *Subject:* Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To continue something that I started before:
>>
>>
>>
>> The derivation of the construction of the Analemmatic could be explained
>> to anyone, with 3 lesson-sessions, over 3 days.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, an Analemmatic Dial could be educational, when it gives people
>> incentive to study, read about or listen to the dial's derivation, is
>> construction-explanation.
>>
>>
>>
>> So the Analemmatic with its trigonometry requirement, could be useful,
>> helpful, educational, at a highschool (secondary school), college or
>> university.
>>
>>
>>
>> ...but not at an elementary-school (primary school), okay? How many
>> elementary-school kids would want to listen to that explanation?
>>
>>
>>
>> Will someone tell me how an Analemmatic Dial would be educational at an
>> elementary-school?
>>
>>
>>
>> There was a line in the movie "Fatal Attraction", in which the mother is
>> considering taking their primary-school child with her, when she goes to
>> visit her father (probably for the purpose of looking at a nearby house
>> that they're considering purchasing).  The Father questions whether the
>> child should miss school by going on the visit. The mother replies, "What's
>> she going to miss, trigonometry?"
>>
>>
>>
>> What dial's explanation would be of interest to an elementary-school
>> audience?  Any of the Central-Gnomon Equatorial dials, such as the
>> Disk-Equatori

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Michael Ossipoff]

Steve--

Alright, acknowledged.  But, even so, why not instead have a class design
and build a dial whose construction-derivation would be of interest to
them.   ...or even build, or have it built, for them.

...such as any central-gnomon Equatorial, or any Flat Dial that's
Horizontal, Vertical or Reclining, but not Decllining.   ... (a broad
category that includes the Disk-Equatorial and Polar Dials).

But I do feel that there's nothing wrong with a dial that gives incentive
and encouragement to look at the derivation of the construction of dials
other than the central-gnomon Equatorials.

Insisting on limiting it to central-gnomon Equatorials sounds unfair to
students motivated to look at other dials.

Michael Ossipoff

On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 1:50 PM, Steve Lelievre <
steve.lelievre.can...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> An analemmatic dial is more considered more interesting than other kinds
> because it is somewhat interactive, but I agree that it is a little harder
> to understand. To me though, installing a sundial at a school isn't just
> about, or even primarily about, the teaching of the mechanics of how it
> operates.
>
> The dial will be there for many years and seen my the whole school, not
> just the class that installs it. Its mere presence provides a point of
> interest in the schoolyard, and seeing it may well be the first time a
> child becomes aware that time can be shown by anything other than a clock
> or, more likely these days, the digital display on a microwave oven, TV
> set-top box or a cellphone.
>
> For the class  that does the project, the laying out the dial can
> interesting and educational in itself - practicing how to measure with a
> rule, using angles, and so on. Deciding how to decorate the dial might be a
> cue for discussions about artistic composition and how to choose colours
> that work well together. Perhaps there will be a review of the school motto
> and the virtues it reflects. If the dial is made with a garden, there are
> lessons to be learned about sowing and tending plants. There's basic
> astronomy too - the opportunity for general discussion of the relative
> motion of Earth and Sun, how Earth's rotation causes night and day, and how
> seasons happen.
>
> Trig? Projections? Some students will appreciate detailed discussion, but
> I reckon for most a quick non-technical review of the principles of the
> dial is enough.
>
> Steve
>
>
>  On 2018-07-17 9:42 AM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
>
>
> Jack--
>
> And it seems to me that it wouldn't be satisfying, having and using a
> sundial, without a complete explanation of its construction-derivation.
>
> You wouldn't have any trouble with the explanation. It's just that it's a
> bit long.
>
> I suggest 3 separate discussions, preferably on subsequent days:
>
> 1. The Equatorial and Horizontal spherical co-ordinate-systems.
>
> 2. The definitions of the sine, cosine and tangent
>
> 3. The application of #2 to #1, for determining the Sun's azimuth.
>
> That azimuth formula that that leads to directly gives the Analemmatic
> Dial's layout.
>
> Let me just send this post now, and then (maybe this morning, probably
> this afternoon, but maybe Wednesday morning) start saying something about
> topic #1, above.
>
> Michael Ossipoff
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 9:23 AM, Jack Aubert  wrote:
>
>> I very much agree with this.  In fact, at the risk of sounding stupid, I
>> have to confess that I don’t have an intuitive grasp of how an analemmatic
>> dial works.  Yes, I have at various times gone through the explanation, but
>> it does not stick in any way that I can mentally attach to the plane of the
>> earth’s surface and the motion of the celestial sphere.  I know I could
>> review the geometry and remember it if I tried but agree that the
>> geometrical projections involved are beyond the grasp of almost all
>> children and almost all adults.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jack
>>
>>
>>
>
>
---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Steve Lelievre]

An analemmatic dial is more considered more interesting than other kinds 
because it is somewhat interactive, but I agree that it is a little 
harder to understand. To me though, installing a sundial at a school 
isn't just about, or even primarily about, the teaching of the mechanics 
of how it operates.


The dial will be there for many years and seen my the whole school, not 
just the class that installs it. Its mere presence provides a point of 
interest in the schoolyard, and seeing it may well be the first time a 
child becomes aware that time can be shown by anything other than a 
clock or, more likely these days, the digital display on a microwave 
oven, TV set-top box or a cellphone.


For the class  that does the project, the laying out the dial can 
interesting and educational in itself - practicing how to measure with a 
rule, using angles, and so on. Deciding how to decorate the dial might 
be a cue for discussions about artistic composition and how to choose 
colours that work well together. Perhaps there will be a review of the 
school motto and the virtues it reflects. If the dial is made with a 
garden, there are lessons to be learned about sowing and tending plants. 
There's basic astronomy too - the opportunity for general discussion of 
the relative motion of Earth and Sun, how Earth's rotation causes night 
and day, and how seasons happen.


Trig? Projections? Some students will appreciate detailed discussion, 
but I reckon for most a quick non-technical review of the principles of 
the dial is enough.


Steve


 On 2018-07-17 9:42 AM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:


Jack--

And it seems to me that it wouldn't be satisfying, having and using a 
sundial, without a complete explanation of its construction-derivation.


You wouldn't have any trouble with the explanation. It's just that 
it's a bit long.


I suggest 3 separate discussions, preferably on subsequent days:

1. The Equatorial and Horizontal spherical co-ordinate-systems.

2. The definitions of the sine, cosine and tangent

3. The application of #2 to #1, for determining the Sun's azimuth.

That azimuth formula that that leads to directly gives the Analemmatic 
Dial's layout.


Let me just send this post now, and then (maybe this morning, probably 
this afternoon, but maybe Wednesday morning) start saying something 
about topic #1, above.


Michael Ossipoff



On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 9:23 AM, Jack Aubert > wrote:


I very much agree with this.  In fact, at the risk of sounding
stupid, I have to confess that I don’t have an intuitive grasp of
how an analemmatic dial works.  Yes, I have at various times gone
through the explanation, but it does not stick in any way that I
can mentally attach to the plane of the earth’s surface and the
motion of the celestial sphere.  I know I could review the
geometry and remember it if I tried but agree that the geometrical
projections involved are beyond the grasp of almost all children
and almost all adults.

Jack



---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Michael Ossipoff]

Jack--

And it seems to me that it wouldn't be satisfying, having and using a
sundial, without a complete explanation of its construction-derivation.

You wouldn't have any trouble with the explanation. It's just that it's a
bit long.

I suggest 3 separate discussions, preferably on subsequent days:

1. The Equatorial and Horizontal spherical co-ordinate-systems.

2. The definitions of the sine, cosine and tangent

3. The application of #2 to #1, for determining the Sun's azimuth.

That azimuth formula that that leads to directly gives the Analemmatic
Dial's layout.

Let me just send this post now, and then (maybe this morning, probably this
afternoon, but maybe Wednesday morning) start saying something about topic
#1, above.

Michael Ossipoff



On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 9:23 AM, Jack Aubert  wrote:

> I very much agree with this.  In fact, at the risk of sounding stupid, I
> have to confess that I don’t have an intuitive grasp of how an analemmatic
> dial works.  Yes, I have at various times gone through the explanation, but
> it does not stick in any way that I can mentally attach to the plane of the
> earth’s surface and the motion of the celestial sphere.  I know I could
> review the geometry and remember it if I tried but agree that the
> geometrical projections involved are beyond the grasp of almost all
> children and almost all adults.
>
>
>
> Jack
>
>
>
> *From:* sundial  *On Behalf Of *Michael
> Ossipoff
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 17, 2018 12:29 AM
> *To:* sundial list 
> *Subject:* Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?
>
>
>
>
>
> To continue something that I started before:
>
>
>
> The derivation of the construction of the Analemmatic could be explained
> to anyone, with 3 lesson-sessions, over 3 days.
>
>
>
> Yes, an Analemmatic Dial could be educational, when it gives people
> incentive to study, read about or listen to the dial's derivation, is
> construction-explanation.
>
>
>
> So the Analemmatic with its trigonometry requirement, could be useful,
> helpful, educational, at a highschool (secondary school), college or
> university.
>
>
>
> ...but not at an elementary-school (primary school), okay? How many
> elementary-school kids would want to listen to that explanation?
>
>
>
> Will someone tell me how an Analemmatic Dial would be educational at an
> elementary-school?
>
>
>
> There was a line in the movie "Fatal Attraction", in which the mother is
> considering taking their primary-school child with her, when she goes to
> visit her father (probably for the purpose of looking at a nearby house
> that they're considering purchasing).  The Father questions whether the
> child should miss school by going on the visit. The mother replies, "What's
> she going to miss, trigonometry?"
>
>
>
> What dial's explanation would be of interest to an elementary-school
> audience?  Any of the Central-Gnomon Equatorial dials, such as the
> Disk-Equatorial, Band-Equatorial and Cylinder-Equatorial (with central
> gnomon). Their showing of Solar Time is completely direct.
>
>
>
> The Horizontal Dial's explanation is brief, and might very well be
> acceptable, of interest, to many elementary-school students,.
>
>
>
> Vertical or Reclining, but non-Declining, Flat Dials might not be
> significantly more difficult to explain, since they're just horizontal
> dials for a different latitude.   ...demonstrable with a globe.
>
>
>
> So, if some of the kids are little vandals, you could install a South
> Vertical Dial, bracket-mounted high on a wall (or flat-mounted on a
> south-wall).
>
>
>
> The Circumference-Aperture Cylindrical Equatorial Dial would be easier to
> explain than the Analemmatic, but its explanation might still only be of
> interest to highschool students.
>
>
>
> ...because of its geometric diagram, with its triangles, with
> letter-labeled angles, and the equations relating its angles--and the
> making of new equations by doing the same thing to both sides of an
> equation, or adding or subtracting two equations, or substituting one equal
> thing for another in an equation--sounds like a secondary-school topic.
>
>
>
> Well, probably pre-secondary school (junior-high, middle-school) kids too,
> because when I was in junior-high, our general-math class introduced
> equation-solving.
>
>
>
> ...but I don't know if there would be much interest in it in
> primary-school. I don't know if I'd be brave enough to get up in front of a
> class and start explaining it there.
>
>
>
> Anyway, so I'm just saying, only offer dials whose construction derivation
> explanation would be of interest to the people to whom you're offer

RE: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Jack Aubert]

I very much agree with this.  In fact, at the risk of sounding stupid, I have 
to confess that I don’t have an intuitive grasp of how an analemmatic dial 
works.  Yes, I have at various times gone through the explanation, but it does 
not stick in any way that I can mentally attach to the plane of the earth’s 
surface and the motion of the celestial sphere.  I know I could review the 
geometry and remember it if I tried but agree that the geometrical projections 
involved are beyond the grasp of almost all children and almost all adults. 
 

 

Jack

 

From: sundial  On Behalf Of Michael Ossipoff
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 12:29 AM
To: sundial list 
Subject: Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

 

 

To continue something that I started before:

 

The derivation of the construction of the Analemmatic could be explained to 
anyone, with 3 lesson-sessions, over 3 days.

 

Yes, an Analemmatic Dial could be educational, when it gives people incentive 
to study, read about or listen to the dial's derivation, is 
construction-explanation.

 

So the Analemmatic with its trigonometry requirement, could be useful, helpful, 
educational, at a highschool (secondary school), college or university.

 

...but not at an elementary-school (primary school), okay? How many 
elementary-school kids would want to listen to that explanation?

 

Will someone tell me how an Analemmatic Dial would be educational at an 
elementary-school?

 

There was a line in the movie "Fatal Attraction", in which the mother is 
considering taking their primary-school child with her, when she goes to visit 
her father (probably for the purpose of looking at a nearby house that they're 
considering purchasing).  The Father questions whether the child should miss 
school by going on the visit. The mother replies, "What's she going to miss, 
trigonometry?"

 

What dial's explanation would be of interest to an elementary-school audience?  
Any of the Central-Gnomon Equatorial dials, such as the Disk-Equatorial, 
Band-Equatorial and Cylinder-Equatorial (with central gnomon). Their showing of 
Solar Time is completely direct.

 

The Horizontal Dial's explanation is brief, and might very well be acceptable, 
of interest, to many elementary-school students,. 

 

Vertical or Reclining, but non-Declining, Flat Dials might not be significantly 
more difficult to explain, since they're just horizontal dials for a different 
latitude.   ...demonstrable with a globe.

 

So, if some of the kids are little vandals, you could install a South Vertical 
Dial, bracket-mounted high on a wall (or flat-mounted on a south-wall).

 

The Circumference-Aperture Cylindrical Equatorial Dial would be easier to 
explain than the Analemmatic, but its explanation might still only be of 
interest to highschool students.

 

...because of its geometric diagram, with its triangles, with letter-labeled 
angles, and the equations relating its angles--and the making of new equations 
by doing the same thing to both sides of an equation, or adding or subtracting 
two equations, or substituting one equal thing for another in an 
equation--sounds like a secondary-school topic.

 

Well, probably pre-secondary school (junior-high, middle-school) kids too, 
because when I was in junior-high, our general-math class introduced 
equation-solving.

 

...but I don't know if there would be much interest in it in primary-school. I 
don't know if I'd be brave enough to get up in front of a class and start 
explaining it there.

 

Anyway, so I'm just saying, only offer dials whose construction derivation 
explanation would be of interest to the people to whom you're offering the 
dial. 

 

By the way, I say the same thing about map-projections. For a first world-map 
projection, for a wall or a book-page, in primary-school, I suggest  Apianus 
II, an elliptical pseudocylindrical map with equidistant parallels. 

 

(A pseudocylindrical map has parallels that are mutually-parallel straight 
lines, each one uniformly divided by the meridians (In other words, the scale 
along each parallel is uniform.) ).

 

The equator and central meridian have the same scale, and the map is twice as 
wide as high.

 

If that scale along the parallels is the same along each parallel, and is the 
same as the uniform scale along the central meridian, that's the Sinusoidal 
Projection. It's useful, but many people feel that it looks awful.  It's that 
roughly diamond-shaped world map that you might have seen. Apianus II has a 
pleasing globe-similar elliptical shape.

 

Michael Ossipoff

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 8:47 PM, Michael Ossipoff mailto:email9648...@gmail.com> > wrote:

If I may correct a small error in something that I said:

 

I said:

 

 

That's easily remedied  by having additional apertures at the 6 am & pm 
positions, with a few separate special hour-lines for use with those 
aperatures.  I'd make those 6-o'clock 

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Michael Ossipoff]

To continue something that I started before:

The derivation of the construction of the Analemmatic could be explained to
anyone, with 3 lesson-sessions, over 3 days.

Yes, an Analemmatic Dial could be educational, when it gives people
incentive to study, read about or listen to the dial's derivation, is
construction-explanation.

So the Analemmatic with its trigonometry requirement, could be useful,
helpful, educational, at a highschool (secondary school), college or
university.

...but not at an elementary-school (primary school), okay? How many
elementary-school kids would want to listen to that explanation?

Will someone tell me how an Analemmatic Dial would be educational at an
elementary-school?

There was a line in the movie "Fatal Attraction", in which the mother is
considering taking their primary-school child with her, when she goes to
visit her father (probably for the purpose of looking at a nearby house
that they're considering purchasing).  The Father questions whether the
child should miss school by going on the visit. The mother replies, "What's
she going to miss, trigonometry?"

What dial's explanation would be of interest to an elementary-school
audience?  Any of the Central-Gnomon Equatorial dials, such as the
Disk-Equatorial, Band-Equatorial and Cylinder-Equatorial (with central
gnomon). Their showing of Solar Time is completely direct.

The Horizontal Dial's explanation is brief, and might very well be
acceptable, of interest, to many elementary-school students,.

Vertical or Reclining, but non-Declining, Flat Dials might not be
significantly more difficult to explain, since they're just horizontal
dials for a different latitude.   ...demonstrable with a globe.

So, if some of the kids are little vandals, you could install a South
Vertical Dial, bracket-mounted high on a wall (or flat-mounted on a
south-wall).

The Circumference-Aperture Cylindrical Equatorial Dial would be easier to
explain than the Analemmatic, but its explanation might still only be of
interest to highschool students.

...because of its geometric diagram, with its triangles, with
letter-labeled angles, and the equations relating its angles--and the
making of new equations by doing the same thing to both sides of an
equation, or adding or subtracting two equations, or substituting one equal
thing for another in an equation--sounds like a secondary-school topic.

Well, probably pre-secondary school (junior-high, middle-school) kids too,
because when I was in junior-high, our general-math class introduced
equation-solving.

...but I don't know if there would be much interest in it in
primary-school. I don't know if I'd be brave enough to get up in front of a
class and start explaining it there.

Anyway, so I'm just saying, only offer dials whose construction derivation
explanation would be of interest to the people to whom you're offering the
dial.

By the way, I say the same thing about map-projections. For a first
world-map projection, for a wall or a book-page, in primary-school, I
suggest  Apianus II, an elliptical pseudocylindrical map with equidistant
parallels.

(A pseudocylindrical map has parallels that are mutually-parallel straight
lines, each one uniformly divided by the meridians (In other words, the
scale along each parallel is uniform.) ).

The equator and central meridian have the same scale, and the map is twice
as wide as high.

If that scale along the parallels is the same along each parallel, and is
the same as the uniform scale along the central meridian, that's the
Sinusoidal Projection. It's useful, but many people feel that it looks
awful.  It's that roughly diamond-shaped world map that you might have
seen. Apianus II has a pleasing globe-similar elliptical shape.

Michael Ossipoff






On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 8:47 PM, Michael Ossipoff 
wrote:

> If I may correct a small error in something that I said:
>
> I said:
>
>
>> That's easily remedied  by having additional apertures at the 6 am & pm
>> positions, with a few separate special hour-lines for use with those
>> aperatures.  I'd make those 6-o'clock apertures double, to make them
>> easily-distinguished.
>>
>
> Actually it would be at the 9 a.m. and 3 p.m. positions, measured by the
> hour-lines inside the tube. ...in other words, at the points 90 degrees
> from the top of the tube.
>
> The apertures at those two side-points would cast the light-spots to be
> used for time at or before 6:00 a.m.,. and at or after 6:00 p.m.
>
> As with the main aperture, the hour lines for those side-apertures would
> be marked so that their angular distance along the circumference from the
> point opposite the aperture is twice that hour angle's time's difference
> from 6 o'clock.
>
> Michael Ossipoff
>
> .
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:54 PM, Michael Ossipoff  > wrote:
>
>> I've just realized that I mis-spelled "aperture". I don' t know why I
>> added the extra "a".
>>
>> Michael Ossipoff
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:26 PM, Michael Ossipoff <

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Michael Ossipoff]

If I may correct a small error in something that I said:

I said:


> That's easily remedied  by having additional apertures at the 6 am & pm
> positions, with a few separate special hour-lines for use with those
> aperatures.  I'd make those 6-o'clock apertures double, to make them
> easily-distinguished.
>

Actually it would be at the 9 a.m. and 3 p.m. positions, measured by the
hour-lines inside the tube. ...in other words, at the points 90 degrees
from the top of the tube.

The apertures at those two side-points would cast the light-spots to be
used for time at or before 6:00 a.m.,. and at or after 6:00 p.m.

As with the main aperture, the hour lines for those side-apertures would be
marked so that their angular distance along the circumference from the
point opposite the aperture is twice that hour angle's time's difference
from 6 o'clock.

Michael Ossipoff

.




On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:54 PM, Michael Ossipoff 
wrote:

> I've just realized that I mis-spelled "aperture". I don' t know why I
> added the extra "a".
>
> Michael Ossipoff
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:26 PM, Michael Ossipoff  > wrote:
>
>>
>> As Hunt pointed out, there might be many locations where an Anelematic is
>> the only dial that won't be stolen or vandalized. And I like it. But I'd
>> consider it a last-resort, to be used only when a previous dial has been
>> stolen or vandalized.  That's because I prefer sundials whose
>> construction-principle is easily explained to everyone.
>>
>> Other reasons to consider other sunndials is the Analematic's requirement
>> for a large flat area of land, and the greater accuracy of dials that have
>> their own built-in gnomon.
>>
>> In the Analematics favor, though, it can be said that its
>> construction-principle can be explained, probably in 3 lessons, on 3
>> different days, to anyone who's willing to sit down and listen to the
>> explanation.  And though the Analematic can't be called "educational"
>> except for people willing to listen to that explanation, it can be said, on
>> the positive side, that it gives people *incentive* to listen to an
>> explanation on that subject.
>>
>> So, in that regard, you could say that the Analematic could be
>> particularly educational.
>>
>> Though of course each of the kinds of sundials has its own particular
>> advantages and application, my general favorite stationary dial is what I
>> call the Tube-Dial, the Circumference-Aperature Cylindrical Equatorial
>> Dial.
>>
>> 1. Like other equatorials, it shows the time in a particularly direct way.
>>
>> 2. . It does need a bit more construction-principle explanation than
>> other equatorials, but, as with the Analematic, that makes it more
>> educational, by giving incentive for listening to it.
>>
>> 3. It uses a light-spot instead of a shadow, making it more accurate (not
>> indistinct).
>>
>> 4. Because it's a light-spot in a shaded space, it's easier to look at on
>> a bright sunny day.
>>
>> 5. Lilke other equatorials, it's easy to accurately estimate time by
>> linear interpolation between the lines.
>>
>> 6. Its light-spot moves twice as far per hour as the shadow in an
>> ordinarly central-gnomon equatorial dial.
>>
>> 7. It's easier to build than other equatorials. Just make a hole in the
>> side of a cylinder and mark equally-spaced lines.   ...6 a.m to 6 pm,
>> marked all the way around the inner circumference from the top.
>>
>> Of course its disadvantage is that it can only be read from one position,
>> moreso than any other dial.
>>
>> As I said, all the kinds of dials have their own particular advantages
>> and applications, but the Tube-Dial is my favorite stationary dial.
>>
>> It's perfect for a south windowsill.   and of course a south
>> windowill is the one that gets sunlight all year.
>>
>> One other disadvantage is that, with only an aperature at the top, it
>> won't show times before 6 a.m. or after 6 p.,.
>>
>> That's easily remedied  by having additional aperatures at the 6 am & pm
>> positions, with a few separate special hour-lines for use with those
>> aperatures.  I'd make those 6-o'clock aperatures double, to make them
>> easily-distinguished.
>>
>> For an outdoor use, it could use a big metal drum, or any ready-made
>> cylinder, with a hold drilled in it at the top (...and preferably a pair of
>> auxilliary 6 o'clock aperatures at each 6 o'clock position, with
>> corresponding speial extra hour-lines opposite them.
>>
>> Michael Ossipoff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 5:06 AM, William Irvine <
>> william.irv...@fastmessage.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks to the people who responded, either direct to this Mailing
>>> List - or had E-mailed to me privately, with their own comments.
>>>
>>> Based on those replies, I contacted "Sunclocks" to ask why their
>>> price was so low (compared with the people acting as Distributors
>>> for them) - as well as why they show so many 'negative' details
>>> on their website, telling people about dangers of Human Sundials.

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Michael Ossipoff]

I've just realized that I mis-spelled "aperture". I don' t know why I added
the extra "a".

Michael Ossipoff

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:26 PM, Michael Ossipoff 
wrote:

>
> As Hunt pointed out, there might be many locations where an Anelematic is
> the only dial that won't be stolen or vandalized. And I like it. But I'd
> consider it a last-resort, to be used only when a previous dial has been
> stolen or vandalized.  That's because I prefer sundials whose
> construction-principle is easily explained to everyone.
>
> Other reasons to consider other sunndials is the Analematic's requirement
> for a large flat area of land, and the greater accuracy of dials that have
> their own built-in gnomon.
>
> In the Analematics favor, though, it can be said that its
> construction-principle can be explained, probably in 3 lessons, on 3
> different days, to anyone who's willing to sit down and listen to the
> explanation.  And though the Analematic can't be called "educational"
> except for people willing to listen to that explanation, it can be said, on
> the positive side, that it gives people *incentive* to listen to an
> explanation on that subject.
>
> So, in that regard, you could say that the Analematic could be
> particularly educational.
>
> Though of course each of the kinds of sundials has its own particular
> advantages and application, my general favorite stationary dial is what I
> call the Tube-Dial, the Circumference-Aperature Cylindrical Equatorial
> Dial.
>
> 1. Like other equatorials, it shows the time in a particularly direct way.
>
> 2. . It does need a bit more construction-principle explanation than other
> equatorials, but, as with the Analematic, that makes it more educational,
> by giving incentive for listening to it.
>
> 3. It uses a light-spot instead of a shadow, making it more accurate (not
> indistinct).
>
> 4. Because it's a light-spot in a shaded space, it's easier to look at on
> a bright sunny day.
>
> 5. Lilke other equatorials, it's easy to accurately estimate time by
> linear interpolation between the lines.
>
> 6. Its light-spot moves twice as far per hour as the shadow in an
> ordinarly central-gnomon equatorial dial.
>
> 7. It's easier to build than other equatorials. Just make a hole in the
> side of a cylinder and mark equally-spaced lines.   ...6 a.m to 6 pm,
> marked all the way around the inner circumference from the top.
>
> Of course its disadvantage is that it can only be read from one position,
> moreso than any other dial.
>
> As I said, all the kinds of dials have their own particular advantages and
> applications, but the Tube-Dial is my favorite stationary dial.
>
> It's perfect for a south windowsill.   and of course a south windowill
> is the one that gets sunlight all year.
>
> One other disadvantage is that, with only an aperature at the top, it
> won't show times before 6 a.m. or after 6 p.,.
>
> That's easily remedied  by having additional aperatures at the 6 am & pm
> positions, with a few separate special hour-lines for use with those
> aperatures.  I'd make those 6-o'clock aperatures double, to make them
> easily-distinguished.
>
> For an outdoor use, it could use a big metal drum, or any ready-made
> cylinder, with a hold drilled in it at the top (...and preferably a pair of
> auxilliary 6 o'clock aperatures at each 6 o'clock position, with
> corresponding speial extra hour-lines opposite them.
>
> Michael Ossipoff
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 5:06 AM, William Irvine <
> william.irv...@fastmessage.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> Thanks to the people who responded, either direct to this Mailing
>> List - or had E-mailed to me privately, with their own comments.
>>
>> Based on those replies, I contacted "Sunclocks" to ask why their
>> price was so low (compared with the people acting as Distributors
>> for them) - as well as why they show so many 'negative' details
>> on their website, telling people about dangers of Human Sundials.
>>
>>
>> I will not give away the 'secret' here, (as you can always contact
>> them yourselves if you want) - but it appears that they exploit a
>> 'loophole' in Scottish Law, which allows them to make much greater
>> profits by persuading customers NOT to purchase, but seemingly it
>> only works if their advertised price does not go above 20 Pounds.
>>
>> Apparently, that is why their website says that the price will be
>> permanently FIXED at this level - and would never be increased at
>> any time in the future, no matter what happens to 'inflation'.
>>
>> Doug Hunt explained their overseas Distributors get customized
>> Plans at the same low cost, and choose their own selling prices
>> to suit 'local markets' - while "Sunclocks" profit from persons
>> who do NOT buy, so this is a "win-win" situation for everybody.
>>
>>
>> Because each "Sunclock" layout will automatically become its own
>> 'advert' (particularly those in public locations), the business
>> is basically guaranteed a 'chain reaction' of enquiries - plus
>> 

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Michael Ossipoff]

As Hunt pointed out, there might be many locations where an Anelematic is
the only dial that won't be stolen or vandalized. And I like it. But I'd
consider it a last-resort, to be used only when a previous dial has been
stolen or vandalized.  That's because I prefer sundials whose
construction-principle is easily explained to everyone.

Other reasons to consider other sunndials is the Analematic's requirement
for a large flat area of land, and the greater accuracy of dials that have
their own built-in gnomon.

In the Analematics favor, though, it can be said that its
construction-principle can be explained, probably in 3 lessons, on 3
different days, to anyone who's willing to sit down and listen to the
explanation.  And though the Analematic can't be called "educational"
except for people willing to listen to that explanation, it can be said, on
the positive side, that it gives people *incentive* to listen to an
explanation on that subject.

So, in that regard, you could say that the Analematic could be particularly
educational.

Though of course each of the kinds of sundials has its own particular
advantages and application, my general favorite stationary dial is what I
call the Tube-Dial, the Circumference-Aperature Cylindrical Equatorial
Dial.

1. Like other equatorials, it shows the time in a particularly direct way.

2. . It does need a bit more construction-principle explanation than other
equatorials, but, as with the Analematic, that makes it more educational,
by giving incentive for listening to it.

3. It uses a light-spot instead of a shadow, making it more accurate (not
indistinct).

4. Because it's a light-spot in a shaded space, it's easier to look at on a
bright sunny day.

5. Lilke other equatorials, it's easy to accurately estimate time by linear
interpolation between the lines.

6. Its light-spot moves twice as far per hour as the shadow in an ordinarly
central-gnomon equatorial dial.

7. It's easier to build than other equatorials. Just make a hole in the
side of a cylinder and mark equally-spaced lines.   ...6 a.m to 6 pm,
marked all the way around the inner circumference from the top.

Of course its disadvantage is that it can only be read from one position,
moreso than any other dial.

As I said, all the kinds of dials have their own particular advantages and
applications, but the Tube-Dial is my favorite stationary dial.

It's perfect for a south windowsill.   and of course a south windowill
is the one that gets sunlight all year.

One other disadvantage is that, with only an aperature at the top, it won't
show times before 6 a.m. or after 6 p.,.

That's easily remedied  by having additional aperatures at the 6 am & pm
positions, with a few separate special hour-lines for use with those
aperatures.  I'd make those 6-o'clock aperatures double, to make them
easily-distinguished.

For an outdoor use, it could use a big metal drum, or any ready-made
cylinder, with a hold drilled in it at the top (...and preferably a pair of
auxilliary 6 o'clock aperatures at each 6 o'clock position, with
corresponding speial extra hour-lines opposite them.

Michael Ossipoff




On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 5:06 AM, William Irvine <
william.irv...@fastmessage.co.uk> wrote:

>
> Thanks to the people who responded, either direct to this Mailing
> List - or had E-mailed to me privately, with their own comments.
>
> Based on those replies, I contacted "Sunclocks" to ask why their
> price was so low (compared with the people acting as Distributors
> for them) - as well as why they show so many 'negative' details
> on their website, telling people about dangers of Human Sundials.
>
>
> I will not give away the 'secret' here, (as you can always contact
> them yourselves if you want) - but it appears that they exploit a
> 'loophole' in Scottish Law, which allows them to make much greater
> profits by persuading customers NOT to purchase, but seemingly it
> only works if their advertised price does not go above 20 Pounds.
>
> Apparently, that is why their website says that the price will be
> permanently FIXED at this level - and would never be increased at
> any time in the future, no matter what happens to 'inflation'.
>
> Doug Hunt explained their overseas Distributors get customized
> Plans at the same low cost, and choose their own selling prices
> to suit 'local markets' - while "Sunclocks" profit from persons
> who do NOT buy, so this is a "win-win" situation for everybody.
>
>
> Because each "Sunclock" layout will automatically become its own
> 'advert' (particularly those in public locations), the business
> is basically guaranteed a 'chain reaction' of enquiries - plus
> they make money regardless of whether any person buys, or not!
>
> After looking at hundereds of pictures on their website (as they
> say themselves "from Australia to Alaska and Tasmania to Tibet"),
> I now understand why it is such a world-wide success - and they
> do not even need to supply a 'physical' product, since all sets
> of 

RE: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[William Irvine]

Thanks to the people who responded, either direct to this Mailing
List - or had E-mailed to me privately, with their own comments.

Based on those replies, I contacted "Sunclocks" to ask why their
price was so low (compared with the people acting as Distributors
for them) - as well as why they show so many 'negative' details
on their website, telling people about dangers of Human Sundials.


I will not give away the 'secret' here, (as you can always contact
them yourselves if you want) - but it appears that they exploit a
'loophole' in Scottish Law, which allows them to make much greater
profits by persuading customers NOT to purchase, but seemingly it
only works if their advertised price does not go above 20 Pounds.

Apparently, that is why their website says that the price will be
permanently FIXED at this level - and would never be increased at
any time in the future, no matter what happens to 'inflation'.

Doug Hunt explained their overseas Distributors get customized
Plans at the same low cost, and choose their own selling prices
to suit 'local markets' - while "Sunclocks" profit from persons
who do NOT buy, so this is a "win-win" situation for everybody.


Because each "Sunclock" layout will automatically become its own
'advert' (particularly those in public locations), the business
is basically guaranteed a 'chain reaction' of enquiries - plus
they make money regardless of whether any person buys, or not!

After looking at hundereds of pictures on their website (as they
say themselves "from Australia to Alaska and Tasmania to Tibet"),
I now understand why it is such a world-wide success - and they
do not even need to supply a 'physical' product, since all sets
of customized Plans are simply 'down-loaded' via their website.

However, as Frank King indicated in his reply, some unscrupulous
people try 're-selling' those Plans (or even making counterfeit
copies, under their own name) - but that just annoys people who 
buy them, as the 'Latitude & Longitude' will be wrong so all the
measurements plus layout instructions would not apply either.


Many thanks, also, to those people who gave me suggestions about
various means of making an income from sundials - for example by
giving some 'lectures', as I prefer not to work in stone/metal.

As far as my own 'paying hobby' is concerned, I might just try
painting some "Sunclocks" on school playgrounds - because other
businesses already do it, making hundreds of Pounds each time!


Sincerely,

Bill Irvine.


-- 

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

RE: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[fritzstumpges]

Bill,

In general, there are some people who are able to make a little money
making sundials but most would not claim to make a 'living' or anything
like that.

Have you checked out Helios Sonnenuhren  by Carlo Heller? (German)
This is his U.S. rep and it is in English so you don't have to translate the
original website from German.  https://www.helios-sonnenuhren.de/en

I would say that Carlo has really created a beautiful assortment of 
sundials and I have purchased several of the least expensive ones.
They are superbly made and engineered.

Good luck on your endeavor,

Fritz Stumpges




-Original Message-
From: sundial  On Behalf Of William Irvine
Sent: Monday, July 9, 2018 7:15 AM
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?


Now that I am retired, I have been thinking about turning my 'hobby'
of sundials into an income source - as there are obviously several
successful businesses who are already doing it, around the world.

I had typed 'making money from sundials' into the "Google" search engine,
and one of the first on the list was "Modern Sunclocks" (in
Scotland) - but I am not sure if this is a GENUINE business, since if you
look at some of the pages on their website it seems to imply they make the
majority of profits by persuading people NOT to buy!


Before I try contacting "Sunclocks" directly, do any members of this Mailing
List have comments (good or bad) about that business - and how they could
possibly make money by pushing potential customers away, by telling them all
the bad things about Human Sundials?

For my own curiosity, I have also tried E-mailing to some of their
Distributors (as mentioned on the "Sunclocks" website) - though as yet I
have not received a reply, which again makes me 'suspicious'.

Also, "Sunclocks" themselves seem to have quite LOW pricing and yet their
Distributors are charging much higher costs (for example, two to three
hundred dollars) - compared with only 20 Pounds, in the UK.


I can understand if you prefer to contact me privately, rather than send
your responses to this Mailing List - plus I would be grateful for any ideas
of creating a 'paying hobby', based around sundials.
 
Sincerely,

Bill Irvine.



-- 

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial


---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[Frank King]

Dear Bill,

Sunclocks are genuine.  Some people are very
enthusiastic about them, others are not.  You
have almost certainly seen a Sunclocks dial
without realising it.

They have an interesting business model...

If you want a sundial you are given several
options:

 1. Buy a full set of instructions and
design drawings for your location
and numerous suggestions for how
to implement a design.  Very cheap.

 2. Hand these drawings to a local
workshop.

 3. Use a trusted distributor.

What they don't like is people selling-on
a design for one location to someone in a
different location.

I have had this trouble locally here in
Cambridge, U.K.  A local group decided to
commission a sundial and one of their
number found a used set of drawings (for
Birmingham) for sale, bought them and handed
them to the parks department of the local
authority.  The parks department didn't
understand the instructions for determining
north and didn't understand much else besides.
Unsurprisingly, the result is a non-dial.

That's a good example of...

   The seller doesn't know what he is selling
   The buyer doesn't know what he is buying
   Money changes hands
   Both parties are happy

Apart from the Sunclocks proprietor, only
interested bystanders like me are in the
slightest bit bothered by seeing a nonsense
sundial whenever I walk in that park.

It is a genuine business and, if properly
used, you can end up with an interesting
analemmatic sundial.

You won't be able to e-mail the proprietor.
He doesn't do e-mail.

Frank 

Frank H. King
Cambridge, U.K.

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Is this sundial business 'genuine', or not?

[William Irvine]

Now that I am retired, I have been thinking about turning my 'hobby'
of sundials into an income source - as there are obviously several
successful businesses who are already doing it, around the world.

I had typed 'making money from sundials' into the "Google" search
engine, and one of the first on the list was "Modern Sunclocks" (in
Scotland) - but I am not sure if this is a GENUINE business, since
if you look at some of the pages on their website it seems to imply
they make the majority of profits by persuading people NOT to buy!


Before I try contacting "Sunclocks" directly, do any members of this
Mailing List have comments (good or bad) about that business - and
how they could possibly make money by pushing potential customers
away, by telling them all the bad things about Human Sundials?

For my own curiosity, I have also tried E-mailing to some of their
Distributors (as mentioned on the "Sunclocks" website) - though as
yet I have not received a reply, which again makes me 'suspicious'.

Also, "Sunclocks" themselves seem to have quite LOW pricing and yet
their Distributors are charging much higher costs (for example, two
to three hundred dollars) - compared with only 20 Pounds, in the UK.


I can understand if you prefer to contact me privately, rather than
send your responses to this Mailing List - plus I would be grateful
for any ideas of creating a 'paying hobby', based around sundials.
 
Sincerely,

Bill Irvine.



-- 

---
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