Re: Can anyone help with a Latin translation?
Carpere vel noli nostra vel ede tua The sundials speaking to the passer-by : In French : "Ne les cueille pas a notre maniere, ou alors mange-les a la tienne" In English (but I'm afraid my English is not perfect !) : "Don't pick (the hours) like we do, or else eat (them) your own way" Alain BURGEON Carnieres, Belgium [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Message d'origine- De : Patrick Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> À : sundial Date : samedi 19 septembre 1998 0:51 Objet : Can anyone help with a Latin translation? I have been asked if I might be able to provide an English translation of a Latin motto or inscription on an unusual mutifaced stone dial in a Cheshire (UK) churchyard. The dial commemorates the death by drowning in 1717 of two brothers of the Mainwaring family who, it seems, lived at the nearby Hall. It has two dial faces. On the SW face is the inscription: Carpere vel noli nostra vel ede tua Despite learning Latin many years ago I am unable to translate this and have no longer any dictionaries etc. Can anyone help me? It would be much appreciated. Patrick Powers
Re: Can anyone help with a Latin translation?
Oooops ! Don't read the "sundials", but the "BROTHERS" ! Carpere vel noli nostra vel ede tuaThe BROTHERS speaking to the passer-by :In French : "Ne les cueille pas a notre maniere, ou alors mange-les a latienne"In English (but I'm afraid my English is not perfect !) :"Don't pick (the hours) like we do, or else eat (them) your own way"Alain BURGEONCarnieres, Belgium[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Message d'origine-De : Patrick Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>À : sundialDate : samedi 19 septembre 1998 0:51Objet : Can anyone help with a Latin translation?I have been asked if I might be able to provide an English translation of aLatin motto or inscription on an unusual mutifaced stone dial in a Cheshire(UK) churchyard. The dial commemorates the death by drowning in 1717 of two brothers of theMainwaring family who, it seems, lived at the nearby Hall. It has two dialfaces. On the SW face is the inscription:Carpere vel noli nostra vel ede tuaDespite learning Latin many years ago I am unable to translate this andhave no longer any dictionaries etc. Can anyone help me? It would be muchappreciated.Patrick Powers
Re: Can anyone help with a Latin translation?
Thanks to Hendrik Desmet Cum tua non edas, carpis mea carmina, Laeli. Carpere vel noli nostra, vel ede tua. It's quotation from Martial [M. Valerius Martialis], Epigrammata, I, 91 "As you don't publish your works, you criticize my poems, Laelius. Either don't criticize ours, or publish yours." Cf. Martial, Epigrammes, tome I (livres I-VII), texte etabli et traduit par H. J. IZAAC (Paris, Les Belles Lettres 1969), p. 44 : "Tu ne publies pas tes vers, Lelius, mais tu critiques les miens. Mets fin a tes critiques, ou publie les tiens ." carpo, carpere : "to pick" ; but also rarely "to criticize" edo, edidi, editum, edere : "to put out, to publish" >< edo, edi, esum, edere : "to eat" Metrics : elegiac distich : cUm tua nOn edAs, carpIs mea cArmina, lAEli. cArpere vEl nolI nOstra, vel Ede tuA. Why only the second verse ? What that has got to do with the dead brothers or with the sundial ? Alain BURGEON Carnieres, Belgium [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Can anyone help with a Latin translation?
I think Alain is correct in interpretating the motto as a warning from the dead brothers. According to my dictionary (Lewis and Short), the translation of 'ede' as 'eat' could be strengthened to 'devour'. 'Carpere..noli' is the opposite of 'Carpe' (as in Carpe diem) so means 'Do not seize'. 'vel...vel...' means 'either...or..' or 'make the choice between...and...' I still don't really understand how it all fits together, though. "Either do not seize (the day?) as we (did), or else devour (it) your own way" doesn't seem to make much sense. The motto seems to express their regret at the way they passed their lives, rather than at their deaths. Do we know anything of their lives? Anyway, it doesn't look like a candidate for the Great Sundial Motto Competition. Chris Lusby Taylor -Original Message- From: Alain Burgeon [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 19 September 1998 08:30 To: Patrick Powers; sundial Subject:Re: Can anyone help with a Latin translation? Oooops ! Don't read the "sundials", but the "BROTHERS" ! Carpere vel noli nostra vel ede tua The BROTHERS speaking to the passer-by : In French : "Ne les cueille pas a notre maniere, ou alors mange-les a la tienne" In English (but I'm afraid my English is not perfect !) : "Don't pick (the hours) like we do, or else eat (them) your own way" Alain BURGEON Carnieres, Belgium [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Message d'origine- De : Patrick Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> A : sundial Date : samedi 19 septembre 1998 0:51 Objet : Can anyone help with a Latin translation? I have been asked if I might be able to provide an English translation of a Latin motto or inscription on an unusual mutifaced stone dial in a Cheshire (UK) churchyard. The dial commemorates the death by drowning in 1717 of two brothers of the Mainwaring family who, it seems, lived at the nearby Hall. It has two dial faces. On the SW face is the inscription: Carpere vel noli nostra vel ede tua Despite learning Latin many years ago I am unable to translate this and have no longer any dictionaries etc. Can anyone help me? It would be much appreciated. Patrick Powers << File: ATT0.html >>
Re: Can anyone help with a Latin translation?
On 18 Sep 98, at 18:10, Patrick Powers wrote: > > The dial commemorates the death by drowning in 1717 of two brothers of the > Mainwaring family who, it seems, lived at the nearby Hall. It has two dial > faces. On the SW face is the inscription: > > Carpere vel noli nostra vel ede tua A friend found this: http://www.mun.ca/rels/hrollmann/relsoc/texts/vaughan/contents.html Cum tua non aedas, carpis mea Opuscula, Mome; Carpere vel noli nostra, vel aede tua. Thou putst not out thy works, yet carpst at mine; Leaue off to carpe at mine, or put out thine. ('leaue' = 'leave' ?) Or: http://www.njin.net/~flopez/html/espanol/libros/a/litespan.htm Cum tua non edas, carpis mea carmina, Laeli. Carpere vel noli nostra, vel ede tua. Greetings from Hendrik Desmet West Flanders, Belgium, Europe Visit Bruges at http://www.brugge.be and http://www.brugge.com <<< DH/DSS key id: 0x0FE4EF7E RSA key id: 0xFD14799D >>> Never park your hard disk in a tow-away zone.
Re: Can anyone help with a Latin translation?
>>I've asked it at a specialist in Latin... and he answered me back saying that sentence is not correct Latin. He asked to have a closer look ;-) If possible, could you confirm if there are no 'faults' in the sentence?>> Hendrik: Many thanks for replying. The request for the translation came from a BSS Member who is leading a party of friends on a walk past this dial this coming Sunday. On an advance walk to check the route he noted the motto and checked with me. The entry in the BSS register (as noted by an earlier Dial Recorder) is the same and so I have every reason to believe that it is as I gave in my e-mail. However, I shall pass on your comment and have a further check made. I will let you know what the outcome is. I suppose it is entirely possible that whoever designed the dial might have made a mistake in the Latin:-) Patrick
RE: Can anyone help with a Latin translation?
<> Chris: Many thanks for replying. You have been a great help. I think that we may be up against faulty Latin as well as an obscure inscription! I shall try and find out more about the background to the erection of this dial and get back. Patrick
RE: Can anyone help with a Latin translation?
Andrew, Many thanks for that response. It certainly will be worth getting this colleague to look more closely in case there is some further text - or even if any text has not yet been noticed. I would certainly appreciate your getting in touch with your Classics man. That would be wonderful. I am amazed and delighted with the response to this and am equally amazed at how difficult it is proving. I never thought this would be so interesting. Re your PS: The dial at Stratfield Saye has only recently been spotted (by Peter Ransom) but the photograph of the dial plate is really rather difficult to read! If yours is reasonable then I would be delighted to receive a report in due course. Don't worry at any delay caused by waiting for your film to be finished the dial entries are logged by date seen not by date received (or entered!) by me. I have sent you a .pcx version of the Report form to your own e-mail address for reference. You may have to print it at 51% of stored size - at least that's what I have to do to get a near A4 print. If you do have more to add please do send one in. Regards and thanks again. Patrick