Re: Can anyone help with a Latin translation?

[Alain Burgeon]

Carpere vel noli nostra vel ede tua


The sundials speaking to the passer-by :
In French : "Ne les cueille pas a notre maniere, ou alors mange-les a la
tienne"
In English (but I'm afraid my English is not perfect !) :
"Don't pick (the hours) like we do, or else eat (them) your own way"

Alain BURGEON
Carnieres, Belgium
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Message d'origine-
De : Patrick Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
À : sundial 
Date : samedi 19 septembre 1998 0:51
Objet : Can anyone help with a Latin translation?


I have been asked if I might be able to provide an English translation
of a
Latin motto or inscription on an unusual mutifaced stone dial in a
Cheshire
(UK) churchyard.

The dial commemorates the death by drowning in 1717 of two brothers of
the
Mainwaring family who, it seems, lived at the nearby Hall. It has two
dial
faces.  On the SW face is the inscription:

Carpere vel noli nostra vel ede tua

Despite learning Latin many years ago I am unable to translate this and
have no longer any dictionaries etc.  Can anyone help me?  It would be
much
appreciated.

Patrick Powers

Re: Can anyone help with a Latin translation?

[Alain Burgeon]

Oooops !
 
Don't read the "sundials", but the 
"BROTHERS" !
 
Carpere vel noli nostra vel ede tuaThe BROTHERS speaking to the 
passer-by :In French : "Ne les cueille pas a notre maniere, ou alors 
mange-les a latienne"In English (but I'm afraid my English is not 
perfect !) :"Don't pick (the hours) like we do, or else eat (them) your 
own way"Alain BURGEONCarnieres, Belgium[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Message d'origine-De : 
Patrick Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>À 
: sundial Date : 
samedi 19 septembre 1998 0:51Objet : Can anyone help with a 
Latin translation?I have been asked if I might be able 
to provide an English translation of aLatin motto or inscription on an 
unusual mutifaced stone dial in a Cheshire(UK) churchyard.  
The dial commemorates the death by drowning in 1717 of two brothers 
of theMainwaring family who, it seems, lived at the nearby Hall. It has 
two dialfaces.  On the SW face is the inscription:Carpere 
vel noli nostra vel ede tuaDespite learning Latin many years ago I 
am unable to translate this andhave no longer any dictionaries 
etc.  Can anyone help me?  It would be 
muchappreciated.Patrick Powers

Re: Can anyone help with a Latin translation?

[Alain Burgeon]

Thanks to Hendrik Desmet

Cum tua non edas, carpis mea carmina, Laeli.
Carpere vel noli nostra, vel ede tua.

It's quotation from Martial [M. Valerius Martialis], Epigrammata, I, 91

"As you don't publish your works, you criticize my poems, Laelius.
Either don't criticize ours, or publish yours."

Cf. Martial, Epigrammes, tome I (livres I-VII), texte etabli et traduit par
H. J. IZAAC (Paris, Les Belles Lettres 1969), p. 44 :
"Tu ne publies pas tes vers, Lelius, mais tu critiques les miens. Mets fin a
tes critiques, ou publie les tiens ."

carpo, carpere : "to pick" ; but also rarely "to criticize"
edo, edidi, editum, edere : "to put out, to publish"
>< edo, edi, esum, edere : "to eat"

Metrics : elegiac distich :
cUm tua nOn edAs, carpIs mea cArmina, lAEli.
cArpere vEl nolI nOstra, vel Ede tuA.

Why only the second verse ?
What that has got to do with the dead brothers or with the sundial ?


Alain BURGEON
Carnieres, Belgium
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Can anyone help with a Latin translation?

[Chris Lusby Taylor]

I think Alain is correct in interpretating the motto as a warning from the 
dead brothers. According to my dictionary (Lewis and Short), the 
translation of 'ede' as 'eat' could be strengthened to 'devour'. 
'Carpere..noli' is the opposite of 'Carpe' (as in Carpe diem) so means 'Do 
not seize'. 'vel...vel...' means 'either...or..' or 'make the choice 
between...and...'
I still don't really understand how it all fits together, though. "Either 
do not seize (the day?) as we (did), or else devour (it) your own way" 
doesn't seem to make much sense.
The motto seems to express their regret at the way they passed their lives, 
rather than at their deaths. Do we know anything of their lives?
Anyway, it doesn't look like a candidate for the Great Sundial Motto 
Competition.

Chris Lusby Taylor

-Original Message-
From:   Alain Burgeon [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:   19 September 1998 08:30
To: Patrick Powers; sundial
Subject:Re: Can anyone help with a Latin translation?

Oooops !

Don't read the "sundials", but the "BROTHERS" !

Carpere vel noli nostra vel ede tua

The BROTHERS speaking to the passer-by :
In French : "Ne les cueille pas a notre maniere, ou alors mange-les a la
tienne"
In English (but I'm afraid my English is not perfect !) :
"Don't pick (the hours) like we do, or else eat (them) your own way"

Alain BURGEON
Carnieres, Belgium
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Message d'origine-
De : Patrick Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
A : sundial 
Date : samedi 19 septembre 1998 0:51
Objet : Can anyone help with a Latin translation?


I have been asked if I might be able to provide an English translation 
of a
Latin motto or inscription on an unusual mutifaced stone dial in a 
Cheshire
(UK) churchyard.

The dial commemorates the death by drowning in 1717 of two brothers of 
the
Mainwaring family who, it seems, lived at the nearby Hall. It has two 
dial
faces.  On the SW face is the inscription:

Carpere vel noli nostra vel ede tua

Despite learning Latin many years ago I am unable to translate this and
have no longer any dictionaries etc.  Can anyone help me?  It would be 
much
appreciated.

Patrick Powers


 << File: ATT0.html >> 

Re: Can anyone help with a Latin translation?

[H. Desmet]

On 18 Sep 98, at 18:10, Patrick Powers wrote:

> 
> The dial commemorates the death by drowning in 1717 of two brothers of the
> Mainwaring family who, it seems, lived at the nearby Hall. It has two dial
> faces.  On the SW face is the inscription:
> 
> Carpere vel noli nostra vel ede tua

A friend found this:

http://www.mun.ca/rels/hrollmann/relsoc/texts/vaughan/contents.html


Cum tua non aedas, carpis mea Opuscula, Mome;
 Carpere vel noli nostra, vel aede tua.

Thou putst not out thy works, yet carpst at mine;
  Leaue off to carpe at mine, or put out thine.


('leaue' = 'leave' ?)


Or:

http://www.njin.net/~flopez/html/espanol/libros/a/litespan.htm



  Cum tua non edas, carpis mea carmina, Laeli.
  Carpere vel noli nostra, vel ede tua.
Greetings from Hendrik Desmet 
   West Flanders, Belgium, Europe
Visit Bruges at http://www.brugge.be and http://www.brugge.com
<<< DH/DSS key id: 0x0FE4EF7E RSA key id: 0xFD14799D >>>

Never park your hard disk in a tow-away zone.

Re: Can anyone help with a Latin translation?

[Patrick Powers]

>>I've asked it at a specialist in Latin... and he answered me back saying
that sentence 
is not correct Latin.

He asked to have a closer look ;-)

If possible, could you confirm if there are no 'faults' in the sentence?>>

Hendrik:  Many thanks for replying.

The request for the translation came from a BSS Member who is leading a
party of friends on a walk past this dial this coming Sunday.  On an
advance walk to check the route he noted the motto and checked with me. 
The entry in the BSS register (as noted by an earlier Dial Recorder) is the
same and so I have every reason to believe that it is as I gave in my
e-mail.  However, I shall pass on your comment and have a further check
made.  I will let you know what the outcome is.

I suppose it is entirely possible that whoever designed the dial might have
made a mistake in the Latin:-)

Patrick

RE: Can anyone help with a Latin translation?

[Patrick Powers]

<>

Chris:  Many thanks for replying. You have been a great help.  I think that
we may be up against faulty Latin as well as an obscure inscription!

I shall try and find out more about the background to the erection of this
dial and get back.

Patrick

RE: Can anyone help with a Latin translation?

[Patrick Powers]

Andrew, Many thanks for that response.  It certainly will be worth getting
this colleague to look more closely in case there is some further text - or
even if any text has not yet been noticed.  I would certainly appreciate
your getting in touch with your Classics man.  That would be wonderful.  

I am amazed and delighted with the response to this and am equally amazed
at how difficult it is proving.  I never thought this would be so
interesting.

Re your PS:  The dial at Stratfield Saye has only recently been spotted (by
Peter Ransom) but the photograph of the dial plate is really rather
difficult to read!  If yours is reasonable then I would be delighted to
receive a report in due course. Don't worry at any delay caused by waiting
for your film to be finished the dial entries are logged by date seen not
by date received (or entered!) by me.

I have sent you a .pcx version of the Report form to your own e-mail
address for reference. You may have to print it at 51% of stored size - at
least that's what I have to do to get a near A4 print. If you do have more
to add please do send one in.

Regards and thanks again.

Patrick