[freenet-support] Re: Which Linux for freenet?

2005-08-26 Thread daniele

I think it is indifferent.
Personally I have Debian. But any other distro would support Java, and 
Freenet needs only java.


[Anon] Anon User ha scritto:

-BEGIN TYPE III ANONYMOUS MESSAGE-
Message-type: plaintext

It sounds like a stupid question perhaps, but I'm currently on windows and am
giving serious thought and study time to at minimum switching to a windows 
- - linux dual boot arrangment.


So far I'm leaning toward either Debian or Mandriva, does freenet prefer one
better than the other?  Or does it matter much if it's one of the 'mainstream'
distro's?

Thanks

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--
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it.scienza.chimica, 25/8/05:
> che differenza c'è tra molarità, molalità e moralità?
con le prime due puoi descrivere un politico.
[dp]
http://blog.daniele.homelinux.org

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[freenet-support] Re: Which Linux for freenet?

2005-08-26 Thread Alex R. Mosteo

daniele wrote:

I think it is indifferent.
Personally I have Debian. But any other distro would support Java, and 
Freenet needs only java.


Yep, Mandrake 10.1 here and no worries.



[Anon] Anon User ha scritto:


-BEGIN TYPE III ANONYMOUS MESSAGE-
Message-type: plaintext

It sounds like a stupid question perhaps, but I'm currently on windows 
and am
giving serious thought and study time to at minimum switching to a 
windows - - linux dual boot arrangment.


So far I'm leaning toward either Debian or Mandriva, does freenet 
prefer one
better than the other?  Or does it matter much if it's one of the 
'mainstream'

distro's?

Thanks

-END TYPE III ANONYMOUS MESSAGE-
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[freenet-support] Re: Which Linux for freenet?

2005-08-26 Thread daniele

Well, maybe I'm too much mswin-like in my approach to app installation...
I downloaded Java 1.5 for linux from Java.com and executed it!!!
At the end, I had java installed... magic?

I didn't ever know there were a contrib package of java... didn't ever 
searched it.


(while I know of koffee problems)

Matthew Exon ha scritto:
Debian doesn't include Sun Java - you have to either use Kaffee or some 
other free implementation, or use the java-package package to re-package 
the Sun packages into .deb packages.  java-package is in contrib, which 
Debian won't use by default.  Overall, it's a little hairy and confusing 
- it's not a works-out-of-the-box thing.


As I understand it, Freenet uses lots of features of Java that Kaffee 
either doesn't have or doesn't have a mature implementation of, and so 
Sun Java will probably make your life a lot easier.  I'm not sure if 
Freenet will even run under Kaffee at all (getting this working is 
apparently one of the goals of the 0.7 rewrite).


So I would have said that a distribution that includes Sun Java out of 
the box would make your life somewhat easier.  Having said that though, 
I'm using Sun Java under Debian, and it wasn't all that painful.


Alex R. Mosteo wrote:


daniele wrote:


I think it is indifferent.
Personally I have Debian. But any other distro would support Java, 
and Freenet needs only java.




Yep, Mandrake 10.1 here and no worries.



[Anon] Anon User ha scritto:


-BEGIN TYPE III ANONYMOUS MESSAGE-
Message-type: plaintext

It sounds like a stupid question perhaps, but I'm currently on 
windows and am
giving serious thought and study time to at minimum switching to a 
windows - - linux dual boot arrangment.


So far I'm leaning toward either Debian or Mandriva, does freenet 
prefer one
better than the other?  Or does it matter much if it's one of the 
'mainstream'

distro's?

Thanks

-END TYPE III ANONYMOUS MESSAGE-
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--
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it.scienza.chimica, 25/8/05:
> che differenza c'è tra molarità, molalità e moralità?
con le prime due puoi descrivere un politico.
[dp]
http://blog.daniele.homelinux.org

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[freenet-support] Re: Which Linux for freenet?

2005-08-26 Thread daniele

The sun installer will install java where you say it to install.
I've installed it in /opt/java. Then symbolic linked the executables I 
needs in /usr/local/bin.
A new version of java? I'll remove the directory /opt/java and redo the 
installation.
If the internal tree of the java distribution is the same (with java in 
./bin/), then also symbolic links will remain active in /usr/local/bin.


Basically, when it comes out a new java distro, I'll go to /opt and run 
the installer... :)


(at least, you can make a collective symlink on all ./bin files from 
/usr/local/bin, if you want to be 100% sure there is all you need)


I know that a "symbolic link" is an amazon mythological creature for a 
mswin-only user, but if you use linux it should just be a more powerful 
way to do a link.


Matthew Exon ha scritto:

daniele wrote:


Well, maybe I'm too much mswin-like in my approach to app installation...
I downloaded Java 1.5 for linux from Java.com and executed it!!!
At the end, I had java installed... magic?

I didn't ever know there were a contrib package of java... didn't ever 
searched it.



And I'm probably paranoid and nitpicky.

I don't ever let programs use their own installer, because you can never 
reliably uninstall them again.  Then you get bits of old files left on 
your system that get in the way of new things you're trying to install. 
 For example, it dumps an executable called "java" somewhere.  Then you 
install another program that wants Kaffee, so it automatically installs 
that.  But then when it tries to run Kaffee "java" it ends up running 
the leftover Sun version instead of the Kaffee version.  Or it runs the 
Kaffee executable with Sun's configuration files.  Sorting the mess out 
is painful - and this kind of thing has happened to me a *lot* over the 
years :-(


It's a particular problem for Linux because programs tend to spread 
themselves all over the system when they install, instead of just 
sticking themselves in a single directory.  Also Linux software doesn't 
come with its own uninstaller like Windows software - you have to rely 
on the OS.  And the OS won't uninstall something unless it installed it 
in the first place.


So yeah, the Sun installer is the easiest way to go.  But my 
recommendation to a new Debian user would be to avoid future pain by 
sticking to the Debian-approved way of doing things whenever possible.

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--
-
it.scienza.chimica, 25/8/05:
> che differenza c'è tra molarità, molalità e moralità?
con le prime due puoi descrivere un politico.
[dp]
http://blog.daniele.homelinux.org

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[freenet-support] Re: Which Linux for freenet?

2005-08-26 Thread Bob
[Anon] Anon User <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> 
> -BEGIN TYPE III ANONYMOUS MESSAGE-
> Message-type: plaintext
> 
> It sounds like a stupid question perhaps, but I'm currently on windows and am
> giving serious thought and study time to at minimum switching to a windows 
> - - linux dual boot arrangment.
> 
> So far I'm leaning toward either Debian or Mandriva, does freenet prefer one
> better than the other?  Or does it matter much if it's one of the 'mainstream'
> distro's?
 
As others have said, the exact distro doesn't matter much to freenet and it will
be possible to get it working one way or another. If you're new to Linux and are
going to be using it as a desktop, your first priority should be choosing one
that's relatively easy to use / manage. I'd recommend looking at Ubuntu (or
kUbuntu which uses KDE and is therefore a bit more windows-like), Fedora Core
and similar. For what it's worth I installed Ubuntu a few months ago for a Linux
neophyte friend who was sick of his XP constantly being pwned no matter how
careful he was, and am pleasantly suprised that he actually likes it, has
commented how much easier various things are on it vs. windows, and somehow
still hasn't "got around" to reinstalling XP as dual boot :)
Admittedly I did help configure it for him, e.g. as per
http://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats (the default install is 100% pure Free
software) and stuff like installing all the "suggested" packages for k3b to give
it its full impressive range of ninja powers. Anyway if you make use of all the
FAQs and helpful forums out there I'm sure you could manage.

I have used Debian for a dedicated node successfully, via a manual Sun jre and
freenet install. Apparently it's OK as a desktop, but I'm pretty sure Ubuntu
does things better from a new user's perspective - it's based on Debian anyway
so you still get apt-get etcetera. Currently I use Gentoo, with freenet manually
installed although it does have a package for it. Unlike the guy downthread
though (unless he was joking) I would absolutely _NOT_ recommend Gentoo to a new
user or any "normal user" who doesn't want to tweak their OS. It's a hardcore
everything-is-configurable nerd distro. How nerdy? Well IIRC they only just made
an installer for it, up till then you got a root shell and an instructions.txt
and had to do everything manually :)

Bob


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[freenet-support] Re: Which Linux for freenet?

2005-08-27 Thread Bob
Matthew Exon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Bob wrote:
> 
> > I'd recommend looking at Ubuntu (or
> > kUbuntu which uses KDE and is therefore a bit more windows-like), Fedora 
> > Core
> > and similar.
> 
> As far as Java goes, Ubuntu doesn't come with Java out of the box, 
> although there are at least some fairly clear instructions for 
> installing it:

Well no, but the last I heard no distros did apart from Sun's "Java desktop"
thing and Novell/Suse's enterprise edition, due to Sun's astonishingly stupid
redistribution policies. However recently that *finally* changed ("you may
redistribute either the JDK or Java 2 Runtime Environment with your software."
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/runtime.html) so perhaps there are others now. 

Since it only covers bundling with your apps you still have to manually download
it from Sun's official site if you just want to install it on its own or
upgrade, proving that Sun's management are still morons. Hmm, technically you
could "bundle" it with a 1kb HelloWorld.jar to get it on distro mirrors, I
wonder if anyone has tried this :) It could be genuinely useful too, the package
system could run it post-install to verify the install ...
 
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Java
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingRepositoriesHowto
> 
> Fedora Core doesn't either.  It comes with some scary-looking warnings 
> about what can go wrong if you try to install it the wrong way, and 
> terrible instructions:
> 
> http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc4/#id2503931

Personally I don't like Red Hat and have never used FC. I mentioned it because
it appears to be fairly popular as a "normal user" distro and from screenshots
I've seen of the unified desktop it looks pretty friendly/usable for such
people. My primary recommendation would still be Ubuntu/kUbuntu though.

Bob


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[freenet-support] Re: Which Linux for freenet?

2005-09-05 Thread daniele

Matthew Toseland ha scritto:

On Sat, Aug 27, 2005 at 08:30:04PM +, Bob wrote:


Matthew Exon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:



Bob wrote:



I'd recommend looking at Ubuntu (or
kUbuntu which uses KDE and is therefore a bit more windows-like), Fedora Core
and similar.


As far as Java goes, Ubuntu doesn't come with Java out of the box, 
although there are at least some fairly clear instructions for 
installing it:


Well no, but the last I heard no distros did apart from Sun's "Java desktop"
thing and Novell/Suse's enterprise edition, due to Sun's astonishingly stupid
redistribution policies. However recently that *finally* changed ("you may
redistribute either the JDK or Java 2 Runtime Environment with your software."
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/runtime.html) so perhaps there are others now. 



You could always redistribute it with an app... in a bundle. You
couldn't package it and distribute the package IIRC.


Isn't it an operative system a computer application???

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[freenet-support] Re: Which Linux for freenet?

2005-09-05 Thread daniele
Matthew Toseland ha scritto:
> On Sat, Aug 27, 2005 at 08:30:04PM +, Bob wrote:
> 
>>Matthew Exon <54830412 at ...> writes:
>>
>>
>>>Bob wrote:
>>>
>>>
I'd recommend looking at Ubuntu (or
kUbuntu which uses KDE and is therefore a bit more windows-like), Fedora 
Core
and similar.
>>>
>>>As far as Java goes, Ubuntu doesn't come with Java out of the box, 
>>>although there are at least some fairly clear instructions for 
>>>installing it:
>>
>>Well no, but the last I heard no distros did apart from Sun's "Java desktop"
>>thing and Novell/Suse's enterprise edition, due to Sun's astonishingly stupid
>>redistribution policies. However recently that *finally* changed ("you may
>>redistribute either the JDK or Java 2 Runtime Environment with your software."
>>http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/runtime.html) so perhaps there are others now. 
> 
> 
> You could always redistribute it with an app... in a bundle. You
> couldn't package it and distribute the package IIRC.

Isn't it an operative system a computer application???




[freenet-support] Re: Which Linux for freenet?

2005-09-05 Thread Matthew Toseland
On Mon, Sep 05, 2005 at 11:07:46PM +0200, daniele wrote:
> >You could always redistribute it with an app... in a bundle. You
> >couldn't package it and distribute the package IIRC.
> 
> Isn't it an operative system a computer application???

Unfortunately a single debian package isn't. Commercial dists can put it
on the CD, but it can't easily be packaged.
-- 
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Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
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Re: [freenet-support] Re: Which Linux for freenet?

2005-08-26 Thread Matthew Exon
Debian doesn't include Sun Java - you have to either use Kaffee or some 
other free implementation, or use the java-package package to re-package 
the Sun packages into .deb packages.  java-package is in contrib, which 
Debian won't use by default.  Overall, it's a little hairy and confusing 
- it's not a works-out-of-the-box thing.


As I understand it, Freenet uses lots of features of Java that Kaffee 
either doesn't have or doesn't have a mature implementation of, and so 
Sun Java will probably make your life a lot easier.  I'm not sure if 
Freenet will even run under Kaffee at all (getting this working is 
apparently one of the goals of the 0.7 rewrite).


So I would have said that a distribution that includes Sun Java out of 
the box would make your life somewhat easier.  Having said that though, 
I'm using Sun Java under Debian, and it wasn't all that painful.


Alex R. Mosteo wrote:

daniele wrote:


I think it is indifferent.
Personally I have Debian. But any other distro would support Java, and 
Freenet needs only java.



Yep, Mandrake 10.1 here and no worries.



[Anon] Anon User ha scritto:


-BEGIN TYPE III ANONYMOUS MESSAGE-
Message-type: plaintext

It sounds like a stupid question perhaps, but I'm currently on 
windows and am
giving serious thought and study time to at minimum switching to a 
windows - - linux dual boot arrangment.


So far I'm leaning toward either Debian or Mandriva, does freenet 
prefer one
better than the other?  Or does it matter much if it's one of the 
'mainstream'

distro's?

Thanks

-END TYPE III ANONYMOUS MESSAGE-
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Re: [freenet-support] Re: Which Linux for freenet?

2005-08-26 Thread Matthew Exon

daniele wrote:

Well, maybe I'm too much mswin-like in my approach to app installation...
I downloaded Java 1.5 for linux from Java.com and executed it!!!
At the end, I had java installed... magic?

I didn't ever know there were a contrib package of java... didn't ever 
searched it.


And I'm probably paranoid and nitpicky.

I don't ever let programs use their own installer, because you can never 
reliably uninstall them again.  Then you get bits of old files left on 
your system that get in the way of new things you're trying to install. 
 For example, it dumps an executable called "java" somewhere.  Then you 
install another program that wants Kaffee, so it automatically installs 
that.  But then when it tries to run Kaffee "java" it ends up running 
the leftover Sun version instead of the Kaffee version.  Or it runs the 
Kaffee executable with Sun's configuration files.  Sorting the mess out 
is painful - and this kind of thing has happened to me a *lot* over the 
years :-(


It's a particular problem for Linux because programs tend to spread 
themselves all over the system when they install, instead of just 
sticking themselves in a single directory.  Also Linux software doesn't 
come with its own uninstaller like Windows software - you have to rely 
on the OS.  And the OS won't uninstall something unless it installed it 
in the first place.


So yeah, the Sun installer is the easiest way to go.  But my 
recommendation to a new Debian user would be to avoid future pain by 
sticking to the Debian-approved way of doing things whenever possible.

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Re: [freenet-support] Re: Which Linux for freenet?

2005-08-26 Thread Matthew Exon

daniele wrote:

The sun installer will install java where you say it to install.
I've installed it in /opt/java. Then symbolic linked the executables I 
needs in /usr/local/bin.
A new version of java? I'll remove the directory /opt/java and redo the 
installation.
If the internal tree of the java distribution is the same (with java in 
./bin/), then also symbolic links will remain active in /usr/local/bin.


Basically, when it comes out a new java distro, I'll go to /opt and run 
the installer... :)


(at least, you can make a collective symlink on all ./bin files from 
/usr/local/bin, if you want to be 100% sure there is all you need)


I know that a "symbolic link" is an amazon mythological creature for a 
mswin-only user, but if you use linux it should just be a more powerful 
way to do a link.


Right, so the last thing a brand-new Debian user wants is to have to 
figure out which directory it should go in, or how to make a symbolic 
link, or understand why all their executables have to be in the same 
directory.  The distribution should be taking care of all of that.


My experience is that I always end up installing the new version of X a 
year and a half after I've forgotten that I installed the old version at 
all, let alone remember which directory I put it in or where I symlinked 
it to.  Worst of all is the side effects from weird interactions from 
software that I'd never even expect would be relevant.  Like, I install 
a new text editor and I don't even realise it's installing Kaffee, thus 
clobbering Sun Java, thus clobbering Freenet, which crashes with some 
indecipherable error message.


I've been using Debian many years now, and the more I understand it the 
less I want to fool around under the hood.

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Re: [freenet-support] Re: Which Linux for freenet?

2005-08-26 Thread Matthew Exon

Bob wrote:


I'd recommend looking at Ubuntu (or
kUbuntu which uses KDE and is therefore a bit more windows-like), Fedora Core
and similar.


As far as Java goes, Ubuntu doesn't come with Java out of the box, 
although there are at least some fairly clear instructions for 
installing it:


https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Java
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingRepositoriesHowto

Fedora Core doesn't either.  It comes with some scary-looking warnings 
about what can go wrong if you try to install it the wrong way, and 
terrible instructions:


http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc4/#id2503931
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Re: [freenet-support] Re: Which Linux for freenet?

2005-08-30 Thread Matthew Toseland
On Sat, Aug 27, 2005 at 08:30:04PM +, Bob wrote:
> Matthew Exon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Bob wrote:
> > 
> > > I'd recommend looking at Ubuntu (or
> > > kUbuntu which uses KDE and is therefore a bit more windows-like), Fedora 
> > > Core
> > > and similar.
> > 
> > As far as Java goes, Ubuntu doesn't come with Java out of the box, 
> > although there are at least some fairly clear instructions for 
> > installing it:
> 
> Well no, but the last I heard no distros did apart from Sun's "Java desktop"
> thing and Novell/Suse's enterprise edition, due to Sun's astonishingly stupid
> redistribution policies. However recently that *finally* changed ("you may
> redistribute either the JDK or Java 2 Runtime Environment with your software."
> http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/runtime.html) so perhaps there are others now. 

You could always redistribute it with an app... in a bundle. You
couldn't package it and distribute the package IIRC.
> 
> Since it only covers bundling with your apps you still have to manually 
> download
> it from Sun's official site if you just want to install it on its own or
> upgrade, proving that Sun's management are still morons. Hmm, technically you
> could "bundle" it with a 1kb HelloWorld.jar to get it on distro mirrors, I
> wonder if anyone has tried this :) It could be genuinely useful too, the 
> package
> system could run it post-install to verify the install ...
>  
> > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Java
> > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingRepositoriesHowto
> > 
> > Fedora Core doesn't either.  It comes with some scary-looking warnings 
> > about what can go wrong if you try to install it the wrong way, and 
> > terrible instructions:
> > 
> > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc4/#id2503931
> 
> Personally I don't like Red Hat and have never used FC. I mentioned it because
> it appears to be fairly popular as a "normal user" distro and from screenshots
> I've seen of the unified desktop it looks pretty friendly/usable for such
> people. My primary recommendation would still be Ubuntu/kUbuntu though.
> 
> Bob
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.


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Re: [freenet-support] Re: Which Linux for freenet?

2005-09-05 Thread Matthew Toseland
On Mon, Sep 05, 2005 at 11:07:46PM +0200, daniele wrote:
> >You could always redistribute it with an app... in a bundle. You
> >couldn't package it and distribute the package IIRC.
> 
> Isn't it an operative system a computer application???

Unfortunately a single debian package isn't. Commercial dists can put it
on the CD, but it can't easily be packaged.
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.


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