Re: [Sursound] Looking for a very, very old thread - mics pointing inwards?

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2013-03-02, Eero Aro wrote:

I am writing an article about an un-orthodox stereo recording setup, 
"common acoustical point". Two cardioids with a reasonably long 
spacing, pointing towards a single source, so that the on axis 
directions cross.


Sounds like something that would be handled under O-format. We've also 
gone through something similar with Filippo and perhaps Angelo when I 
tried to hash out how the NFC-HOA and WFS stuff go together, and e.g. 
how you get down from the combined monopole/fig-8 rig suggested by the 
naïve Kirchoff-Helmholtz integral over a sphere. There one thing we 
bumped into was the separation made in the NFC-HOA papers between the 
inward and outward propagating fields, which can't be separated if you 
ditch one of the two transducer types. I seem to remember mentioning an 
O-format based "from inside out" type array at least in that context, 
and also several years before in connection with Angelo's room 
simulation work.


What you're doing sounds like you're essentially dualizing the usual 
ambisonic setup the same way. That'd lead to a closely spaced emitter. 
As such it's not impossible Ralph might have something to say about 
that, too, given Ambiopoles.



The setup reminded me of a discussion of a similar type surround recording
setup. Four or several mics on a circle around the source would capture a
LOT more time and phase differences between the channels than a stereo
setup.


Certainly Ralph and perhaps Robin's turf.
--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
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Re: [Sursound] Looking for a very, very old thread - mics pointing inwards?

[Eero Aro]

Eric Benjamin wrote:

I'm still confused as to what is being described.  Could it possibly be this?


Sorry Eric. I have never seen that article before.

Originally I was looking for a possible follow-up to this short thread,
that was started by Etienne in Nov 2002: You can find it in Sursound
Archives.

>The idea is a live performance in surround, where the performer is a
>mouse in a shoe box. The box is made of some resonant material.
>
>The mic / speaker layout is inverted ... i.e. the mics are just
>outside the box, pointing in, through little holes.  The listener is
>aurally inside the box hearing the mouse walk around them..
> just straight mic channel to speaker ..with 6 or 8 standard
>cardiod mics / speakers.

Etienne only got two replies to his post. Maybe that was it.
I suggest we move on to something completely different.

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] Looking for a very, very old thread - mics pointing inwards?

[Eric Benjamin]

I'm still confused as to what is being described.  Could it possibly be this?

http://ambisonics.iem.at/symposium2009/proceedings/ambisym09-pollowmasiero-musicalinstrumentdirectivity.pdf/at_download/file


or something similar?

Eric Benjamin 



- Original Message 
From: Eero Aro 
To: sursound@music.vt.edu
Sent: Mon, March 4, 2013 7:08:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Looking for a very, very old thread - mics pointing 
inwards?

> I'd be interested if you do turn up a reference.

The setup is used by some people I know. It works, if used carefully and
properly. Sorry, no references to point to.

> maybe it was in "Resolution"
> magazine.  I thought I'd kept the article, but I can/t find it in my file,
> and there doesn't seem to be anything on the web.  Maybe that's what you're
> thinking of?

There have been some articles in Sound On Sound about somewhat similar
subjects. However, these are not what I am looking for.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug01/articles/recacgtr0801.asp
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr10/articles/acguitar.htm

Thanks for the comments.

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] Looking for a very, very old thread - mics pointing inwards?

[Eero Aro]

I'd be interested if you do turn up a reference.


The setup is used by some people I know. It works, if used carefully and
properly. Sorry, no references to point to.


maybe it was in "Resolution"
magazine.  I thought I'd kept the article, but I can/t find it in my file,
and there doesn't seem to be anything on the web.  Maybe that's what you're
thinking of?


There have been some articles in Sound On Sound about somewhat similar
subjects. However, these are not what I am looking for.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug01/articles/recacgtr0801.asp
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr10/articles/acguitar.htm

Thanks for the comments.

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] Looking for a very, very old thread - mics pointing inwards?

[Rev Tony Newnham]

Hi

Not come across that one!  I often use ORTF stereo set-ups, especially if I
don't want the pin point accuracy of Blumhein.  I'd be interested if you do
turn up a reference.  I've used the Faulkner array of spaced figure of
eights with some success.  I did read that he'd more recently added further
mics - I can't remember/find the ref. now - maybe it was in "Resolution"
magazine.  I thought I'd kept the article, but I can/t find it in my file,
and there doesn't seem to be anything on the web.  Maybe that's what you're
thinking of?

Every Blessing

Tony

> -Original Message-
> From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu]
On
> Behalf Of Eero Aro
> Sent: 02 March 2013 17:17
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Looking for a very, very old thread - mics
pointing
> inwards?
> 
> Tony wrote:
> > Are you thinking of the arrangement that one of the audiophile record
> > companies use? Near coincident fig 8's plus an omni pointing in.
> 
> No. I am writing an article about an un-orthodox stereo recording setup,
> "common acoustical point". Two cardioids with a reasonably long spacing,
> pointing towards a single source, so that the on axis directions cross.

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Re: [Sursound] Looking for a very, very old thread - mics pointing inwards?

[Eero Aro]

Tony wrote:

Are you thinking of the arrangement that one of the audiophile record
companies use? Near coincident fig 8's plus an omni pointing in.


No. I am writing an article about an un-orthodox stereo recording setup,
"common acoustical point". Two cardioids with a reasonably long spacing,
pointing towards a single source, so that the on axis directions cross.

The setup works and has some advantages compared to mono miking and
it works well with single instruments and in a reasonably anechoic recording
space. But as you see, it isn't a stereo recording setup as such. It's more
like a twin mono miking setup. You need to be careful not to create comb
filtering.

The setup reminded me of a discussion of a similar type surround recording
setup. Four or several mics on a circle around the source would capture a
LOT more time and phase differences between the channels than a stereo
setup.

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] Looking for a very, very old thread - mics pointing inwards?

[Rev Tony Newnham]

Hi

Are you thinking of the arrangement that one of the audiophile record
companies use? Near coincident fig 8's plus an omni pointing in.

Every Blessing

Tony

> -Original Message-
> From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu]
On
> Behalf Of Eero Aro
> Sent: 02 March 2013 11:06
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Looking for a very, very old thread - mics
pointing
> inwards?
> 
> Michael Chapman wrote:
>   > 1) Don't think this is it, but better to forward than delete ?
> 
> Yes, I also found that post, but it isn't quite what I was looking for.
Maybe
> my imagination is just making up things.
> 

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Re: [Sursound] Looking for a very, very old thread - mics pointing inwards?

[Eero Aro]

Michael Chapman wrote:
 > 1) Don't think this is it, but better to forward than delete ?

Yes, I also found that post, but it isn't quite what I was
looking for. Maybe my imagination is just making up things.

Thanks Michael.

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] Looking for a very, very old thread - mics pointing inwards?

[Michael Chapman]

> Hi All
>
> I have been spending some time looking for a thread that I think
> we had ages ago about a surround sound microphone setup,
> in which the microphones would not be pointing outwards from a
> point, but inwards.
>
> Is there  anyone who would remember that thread? I only found three
> posts of a short thread started by Etienne on Nov 14 2002.
>
> Somehow I feel like there has also been another more lively
> discussion about a similar subject. Maybe I just don't find the right
> words for my search in the Archive.
>

1) Don't think this is it, but better to forward than delete ?

<< Jörn Nettingsmeier | 17 Jan 2011 14:45
Re: good quality low noise yet miraculously cheap   cardiod/unidirectional
microphones ?

On 01/17/2011 02:33 PM, Paul Hodges wrote:
> --On 17 January 2011 14:08 +0100 Jörn Nettingsmeier
>  stackingdwarves.net> wrote:
>
>> if you want to use cardioids, your best bet will be three at 120° angles.
>
> As briefly used by Michael Gerzon:
> 

interesting. i would have stacked them, for perfect horizontal coincidence.
if used like this, does the array require correction filters?
and isn't it a problem that frontal sound hits the "front" microphone
after the "rear" ones, or can it be corrected?
if it can be corrected, why aren't we all using four schoeps or b+k
cardioids in an inverted tetrahedron, i.e. pointing inwards?>>

or

<<> On 01/17/2011 02:33 PM, Paul Hodges wrote:
> > --On 17 January 2011 14:08 +0100 J?rn Nettingsmeier
> > wrote:
> >
> >> if you want to use cardioids, your best bet will be three at 120?
> angles.
> >
> > As briefly used by Michael Gerzon:
> > 
>
> interesting. i would have stacked them, for perfect horizontal coincidence.
> if used like this, does the array require correction filters?
> and isn't it a problem that frontal sound hits the "front" microphone
> after the "rear" ones, or can it be corrected?
> if it can be corrected, why aren't we all using four schoeps or b+k
> cardioids in an inverted tetrahedron, i.e. pointing inwards?>>

Perhaps not old enough ...


2) Certainly look at
 and maybe
search for links to that ?

Good luck !

Michael



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