Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2022-04-06, Fons Adriaensen wrote:


With near field sources, the outwards radiating field from a point source
is reactive at each point. Pressure and velocity are *not* in phase,


Even a pantophonic mic will pick that up that phase difference.


It will, but it will also miss out on energy radiating off the 
pantophonic plane. Counterwise, a purely planar, pantophonic analysis in 
reconstruction will also miss out on convergent energy from the rig.


This was in fact why Christoff Faller, when he lectured at Aalto 
University in the day, thought "Ambisonics couldn't work". He took to 
the fact that a pantophonic rig setup necessarily leads to a 1/r falloff 
in amplitude as measured from the rim inwards. What he didn't understand 
was that reconstructing that basic WXY-field utilizing a full periphonic 
rig (or if you will an idealized cylindrical pantophonic setup, 
reproducing not point but line sources) takes away the problem entirely.


Now, the counterpoint for a microphone is a bit different. A soundfield 
mic as its central/coincident one doesn't have quite this problem, so 
you can in theory do without Z, so as to have a coincident pantophonic 
setup. At first order POA. That's because the acoustic field is 
pointwise four-dimensional: pressure/W, and three velocity 
components/XYZ, all independent. It's all orthogonal, so that you can 
just drop Z with no harm done, energy or propagation direction wise.


Not so with anything above first order, because then you'll be dealing 
with non-local features of the acoustic field. And once you do that, 
parametrize it in direction, your Fourier series won't terminate. They 
will attenuate by frequency, but they'll never truly terminate. Which is 
why the first order Gerzonian soundfield is so easy to derive, while 
even a second order mic actually necessarily is an engineering feat, and 
nonperfect in its attenuation of higher order spherical harmonical 
contributions. From second order up, you *cannot* just neglect the 
vertical components, like you can with POA soundfields; it's the same 
thing as it is with Faller's analysis of pantophonic playback rigs, and 
their losing energy to the third dimension. As soon as you deal with a 
field, non-locally, this sort of thing necessarily happens, and since 
you can only deal with the acoustic field locally using four 
coordinates, WXYZ, anything above that becomes more complicated.


This is even the reason the dominance/boost transformation of early yore 
doesn't readily generalize. Because it's basically a local Lorenz boost, 
akin to what is done in special relativity. It doesn't generalize to 
non-local things, which is what anything beyond first order in 
ambisonics necessarily is. It could generalize over if the acoustic 
field pointwise had more degrees of freedom. Like, say, if it 
*pointwise* had a second order spherical harmonical symmetry; if it was 
a tensor field of that kind. But it isn't.


Also, below what we have in sound, it's also theoretically possible that 
we couldn't have even this kind of extant symmetry. I mean, if acoustics 
was described fully by a scalar W field, so that there was no velocity 
part XYZ to its tensor, actually we couldn't have even a workable 
soundfield mic. We'd have the same problems of spatial extension we have 
with second order and further mics, starting with first order. Such it 
is e.g. with the heat equation.



the vector describing energy transfer (in EM I think the Poynting vector)
is *not* in the plane, but outwards from the source, all round.


Which means that whatever you try to describe here is NOT a vector.


Of course it is. We might not yet agree where it points, but a vector it 
is.


The velocity vector will be in the horizontal plane, and is 
represented correctly by X,Y. It has no Z component.


This is not true. Suppose you have two point sources of sound, one metre 
to your left and one to the right. They radiate 3D at an equal 
amplitude, but also in opposite polarity.


When you vectorially sum their contributions at the origin, you'll 
discover there is a vertical component. It's counter-intuitive to be 
sure, but one way of seeing why it happens is that in such a nearfield, 
the pressure field will be oscillating not just in the plane, but above 
and below the center point. That then leads to an oscillating, vertical 
pressure gradient, off plane, which forces transverse oscillation in 
velocity as well.


This wouldn't happen if the sources were infinitely tall cylindrical 
ones, since then there wouldn't be any pressure variation in the plane 
of symmetry. Also, there wouldn't be any such phenomena if the equations 
were 2D to begin with — though if they were, we also wouldn't have an 
inverse *square* laws to deal with, but just a straight inverse.


But given even two monopole sources in 3D, in antiphony, at equal 
distances, you indeed get lateral velocity/forces. Different kinds and 
amounts too, depending on frequency and 

Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 04:13:57PM +0300, Sampo Syreeni wrote:

> With near field sources, the outwards radiating field from a point source
> is reactive at each point. Pressure and velocity are *not* in phase,

Even a pantophonic mic will pick that up that phase difference.

> the vector describing energy transfer (in EM I think the Poynting vector)
> is *not* in the plane, but outwards from the source, all round.

Which means that whatever you try to describe here is NOT a vector.

The velocity vector will be in the horizontal plane, and is represented
correctly by X,Y. It has no Z component.

> So what happens is that while the
> pressure field is fully symmetric in the horizontal plane, there still has
> to be a Z component in order to recreate the field to full first order.

Not for it to be correct for a listener in the same horizontal plane
as the speakers. Of course if the listener moves up or down the 
sound field he/she senses will be incorrect. What do you expect ?

> ...and that's precisely why pantophony is an idea born dead. We don't have
> infinite vertical line sources, nor microphone arrays which mimic their
> directional patterns. The only thing we really have is 3D mic arrays and 3D
> rigs.

Indeed. But we also have situations in which most sources are in the horizontal
plane or close to it, and as listeners we tend to stay on the ground and not fly
around. 

Ciao,

-- 
FA

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Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2022-04-06, Jack Reynolds wrote:


I am here if there’s anything you want to know.


Pricing, for starters, of course. :)


My marketing approach so far has been word of mouth really.


Appears to be working if you reach the list, and even someone like me.

I have been developing the designs with much field testing help from 
Axel and intended the mics to be as quiet and clean sounding as 
possible and also to be very difficult to break while camped out in 
the jungle. Waterproof Lemo connectors and 3D printed nylon makes for 
a much more robust product than the soundfields.


Have you been able to maintain the constant directional patterns, the 
high spatial aliasing limit, and the low noise floor of, say at best, 
SoundField V? What would you say the tradeoffs are for ruggedness, if 
any?


They are based on the classic tetrahedron of cardioids and there’s not 
much more going on that.


No sense in reinventing the wheel. But say again, which capsules do you 
use, and how do you support them, e.g. to insulate them from rattle and 
undue offsets? I mean, SoundFields are notorious for being fickle 
beasts. Bang them once against a corner of a table, and they need to be 
sent back to factory for a recalibration. You already said you take 
precautions, but how robust are they recording-wise? Have you measured?

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Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2022-04-06, Fons Adriaensen wrote:

I ask because theory-wise pantophonic and periphonic soundfields 
shouldn't be captured the same way,


There is no such thing as a 'pantophonic sound field'. We don't live 
in Flatland. All microphones operate in 3D space.


Some more than others. Interferometric boom mics try to operate in 1D 
land. You know, the ones which attenuate everything off-axis.


The ideal pantophonic mic array does the same in 2D. It cuts off 
everything above horizon, sharply. Then the ideal pantophonic array 
reproduces cylindrical waves, matched.


That's the only way the recording and reproduction conditions ever truly 
match. Faller's math showed that on blackboard, and the NFC-HOA work 
made it even clearer, if between the lines.


The way *I* interpret the mess is that pantophony is a mirage; there can 
be only periphony within the ambisonic framework. We might argue about 
its order, or about how truly regular the capture and reproduction rigs 
need to really be, but in the end, the spherical harmonical framework 
underlying ambisonic just doesn't pan out except in full 3D.



Unless you mean a sound field with all sources in the horizontal plane 
of the mic. Then it is just a subset of a 3D sound field, and a 
conventional AMB mic will capture it correctly.


Actually it will not. It's easy to fall prey to the idea of planar 
symmetry, but the 3D soundfield doesn't behave like that. For infinitely 
far-away sources in the horizontal plane the symmetry idea holds, but 
only because such sources constitute planewaves when they hit the mic. 
Any closer sources even in the horizontal plane are near-field, and 
constitute a near-field component even in the third dimension. 
Recreating them to first order calls for Z as well. And if you cut out 
Z...we're back to Christoff's skeptical analysis of the system: the 
apparent amplitude of a horizontal source takes on a 1/r term within the 
reproduction rig, because some of the sound energy is leaking off the 
plane.


The effect was analysed in WFS work, earlier. In there they used 
synthesized point sources and -- planar array that they had -- actually 
compensated actually for the term in software. Obviously nothing like 
that can be done in whole ambisonic soundfields.



nor do they represent even the same encoding system.


How does a sound field 'represent an encoding system' ? Your statement 
may be grammatically correct but it has no meaning.


Sorry, I'm being vague as usual. The exact statement would be that 
pantophony is the theory of cylindrically symmetrical solutions to the 
wave equation, whereas periphony concerns itself with spherically 
symmetrical ones. The continuous symmetry group respected by the former 
is that of the one-sphere by a line, and the one respected by the second 
is that of the two-sphere. By well known topological reasoning, you 
cannot continuously, much less differentiably or linearly, embed the 
latter into the former, since it's of lower dimension. Neither can you 
work around the problem using any linear representation, as would be the 
case with circular/cylindrical harmonics and spherical harmonics.


Working down from that idea, there can *be* *no* consistent definition 
of what a sound source off the horizontal plane means in pantophony. 
There's just no way to define it without having it vanish somewhere, or 
suddenly flip sign. And since we know you need planewaves of all 
directions in order to decompose any monopole... You might think you can 
forget about such behavior, but in the sense of the enveloping wave 
equation you actually cannot: every nearby point source in the 
horizontal plane requires a Z-wise component. (More on that later.)


It might not be easy to see, because we're used to dealing with 
pointwise pressure fields only; the acoustical equation instead of the 
full wave equation. But then only in the case of infinitely far off 
sources can we assume that pressure and velocity are in phase, in the 
plane of symmetry. That is the far field/plane wave assumption. With 
near field sources, the outwards radiating field from a point source is 
reactive at each point. Pressure and velocity are *not* in phase, and 
the vector describing energy transfer (in EM I think the Poynting 
vector) is *not* in the plane, but outwards from the source, all round. 
So what happens is that while the pressure field is fully symmetric in 
the horizontal plane, there still has to be a Z component in order to 
recreate the field to full first order.


You can't capture that with a periphonic array, nor can you recreate it 
using a periphonic rig. The only way periphony can work is by 
approximating infinitely far off sources i.e. planewaves. There 
pantophony can work, and that's how it was analyzed by Gerzon, no less. 
But if you want to approximate near fields -- any fully general fields 
-- you run into a topological singularity (pretty much the hairy ball 
theorem): there's just no way to map 

Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 02:57:51AM +0300, Sampo Syreeni wrote:

> I ask because theory-wise pantophonic and periphonic soundfields
> shouldn't be captured the same way,

There is no such thing as a 'pantophonic sound field'. We don't
live in Flatland. All microphones operate in 3D space.

Unless you mean a sound field with all sources in the horizontal
plane of the mic. Then it is just a subset of a 3D sound field,
and a conventional AMB mic will capture it correctly.

> nor do they represent even the same encoding system.

How does a sound field 'represent an encoding system' ? Your
statement may be grammatically correct but it has no meaning.

> people seem to do whathever, and don't even quantify their
> secret sauce.

Because there isn't any.

The same applies to decoder design. Unless your speakers are
infinitely long vertical line sources and radiate only in the
horizontal plane, your system is a 3D one.

Ciao,

-- 
FA

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Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[anders]

Hello Jack,

> 25 Mar 2022 - Jack Reynolds :

J> For windshields I have custom made Rycote BBGs that sit the array
J> at the centre of the windshield.

may i ask what are the diameters of the mic - head and body?

-anders
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Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Jack Reynolds]

Hi Sampo!

I am here if there’s anything you want to know. 

My marketing approach so far has been word of mouth really. 

I have been developing the designs with much field testing help from Axel and 
intended the mics to be as quiet and clean sounding as possible and also to be 
very difficult to break while camped out in the jungle. Waterproof Lemo 
connectors and 3D printed nylon makes for a much more robust product than the 
soundfields.

They are based on the classic tetrahedron of cardioids and there’s not much 
more going on that. 

Cheers

Jack


Sent from my iPhone

> On 6 Apr 2022, at 01:03, Sampo Syreeni  wrote:
> 
> On 2022-03-26, Chris Woolf wrote:
> 
>> Jack has been conversing with me since then off-list, and I've clearly 
>> managed a bit of unintentional promo on his behalf!
> 
> A bit of promo is not bad in these circles: quite obviously ambisonic (and 
> other principled high order) technologies need a bit of a commercial and 
> social boost nowadays.
> 
> But why don't you then bring Jack back into the fold, too? It'd be a *hoot* 
> to discuss his technical and marketing choices in here. Maybe have a bit of 
> to-and-fro abotu them. :) <3
> -- 
> Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
> +358-40-3751464, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
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Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2022-03-26, Chris Woolf wrote:

Jack has been conversing with me since then off-list, and I've clearly 
managed a bit of unintentional promo on his behalf!


A bit of promo is not bad in these circles: quite obviously ambisonic 
(and other principled high order) technologies need a bit of a 
commercial and social boost nowadays.


But why don't you then bring Jack back into the fold, too? It'd be a 
*hoot* to discuss his technical and marketing choices in here. Maybe 
have a bit of to-and-fro abotu them. :) <3

--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-40-3751464, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
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Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2022-03-25, Drew Kirkland wrote:

I have one, I can send some recordings. It is a flatter response than 
the sennheiser Ambo. It's very light and the capsules are reasonably 
well matched.


How does it compare to full-blown, classical designs such as the Mark IV 
or V Soundfields?


I ask because theory-wise pantophonic and periphonic soundfields 
shouldn't be captured the same way, nor do they represent even the same 
encoding system. The mics used are thoroughly different, and especially 
with pantophony (at worst some derivative of just XY), people seem to do 
whathever, and don't even quantify their secret sauce.


What are the equations, here? Also, how and *why* does it sound?
--
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+358-40-3751464, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
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Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Chris Woolf]

Thank you all for filling in my lack of knowledge of Jack Reynolds.

Truly, I was just asking because I had been contacted by a friend and 
user of an old Soundfield about these mics, and I had to admit total 
ignorance;}


Jack has been conversing with me since then off-list, and I've clearly 
managed a bit of unintentional promo on his behalf! Good to hear how 
many of you are using his kit and how favourable so many reactions are.


I'm not in the world of making recordings nowadays but I do feel a 
little more up-to-date - such are the benefits of this list.


Chris Woolf


On 26/03/2022 11:39, Axel Drioli wrote:

Hi Chris

I've been using almost every prototype stage of Jack's mics since that 
first day he showed me a 3d printed array frame.


I've used them in so many scenarios, I have 4x of them. Do you have 
any specific recordings you would like to hear? I'll provide them in A 
format and also upsampled AmbiX 3rd order.


Axel

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 at 19:09, Drew Kirkland  wrote:

I have one, I can send some recordings. It is a flatter response
than the
sennheiser Ambo. It's very light and the capsules are reasonably well
matched.
I use it mostly for wild landscape receding with a mix pre10

Drew

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022, 12:24 Chris Woolf, 
wrote:

> A friend asked me about this mic. Have to admit I have never
heard of
> it, or of the company.
>
> Does anyone on the list have any knowledge, thoughts or comments?
>
> Chris Woolf
>
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--
*Axel Drioli*
/*SpatialAudioLabs.com */
/
/
/Creating sonic immersive experiences for XR and installations./
/
/
/SoundingWild.com  for Wildlife and 
Conservation immersive experiences.//

/
/
/
*
*/Tel-Facetime:/*+44 7460 223640
*
*
/*E-mail: a...@spatialaudiolabs.com */
*



/'Life On The Edge', a Sounding Wild 
 x Spatial Audio Labs production for 
Wildlife Alliance  is part of 
*EarthXR 2020  
*official selection and Finalist at *SXSW2020 Virtual Noise Showcase*/

/
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Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Axel Drioli]

Hi Chris

I've been using almost every prototype stage of Jack's mics since that
first day he showed me a 3d printed array frame.

I've used them in so many scenarios, I have 4x of them. Do you have any
specific recordings you would like to hear? I'll provide them in A format
and also upsampled AmbiX 3rd order.

Axel

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 at 19:09, Drew Kirkland  wrote:

> I have one, I can send some recordings. It is a flatter response than the
> sennheiser Ambo. It's very light and the capsules are reasonably well
> matched.
> I use it mostly for wild landscape receding with a mix pre10
>
> Drew
>
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022, 12:24 Chris Woolf,  wrote:
>
> > A friend asked me about this mic. Have to admit I have never heard of
> > it, or of the company.
> >
> > Does anyone on the list have any knowledge, thoughts or comments?
> >
> > Chris Woolf
> >
> > ___
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-- 
*Axel Drioli*
*SpatialAudioLabs.com *

*Creating sonic immersive experiences for XR and installations.*

*SoundingWild.com  for Wildlife and Conservation
immersive experiences.*

*Tel-Facetime: +44 7460 223640*
*E-mail: a...@spatialaudiolabs.com *





*'Life On The Edge', a Sounding Wild
 x Spatial Audio Labs production for Wildlife
Alliance  is part of EarthXR 2020
 official selection and
Finalist at SXSW2020 Virtual Noise Showcase*
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Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Ralf R Radermacher]

Am 25.03.22 um 20:08 schrieb Drew Kirkland:

I have one, I can send some recordings.


Any chance of putting them somewhere for download?

Ralf

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Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Drew Kirkland]

I have one, I can send some recordings. It is a flatter response than the
sennheiser Ambo. It's very light and the capsules are reasonably well
matched.
I use it mostly for wild landscape receding with a mix pre10

Drew

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022, 12:24 Chris Woolf,  wrote:

> A friend asked me about this mic. Have to admit I have never heard of
> it, or of the company.
>
> Does anyone on the list have any knowledge, thoughts or comments?
>
> Chris Woolf
>
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Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 12:57:27PM +, Tom Slater wrote:

> I've used one but don't own one. Best 2nd order mic I've used or heard
> recordings from by far!

2nd order ??? 

-- 
FA

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Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Jack Reynolds]

Hi Chris,
The 3D printing does have several advantages from a design point of view. I can 
make structures that would be impossible with traditional methods.
I nickel coat the nylon SLS parts with very good shielding results. 
The nylon also doesn’t get as ‘cold’ as metal bodied mics so that and IP67 
waterproof LEMO connectors makes them very good for outdoor use. 

For windshields I have custom made Rycote BBGs that sit the array at the centre 
of the windshield. 

I have some demo mics available if you want to try one out. 

Cheers

Jack

Sent from my iPhone

> On 25 Mar 2022, at 12:58, Chris Woolf  wrote:
> 
> He may well do!
> 
> But I was intrigued by the use of 3D printing for what are always going to be 
> very low sales numbers, and how efficient the electrostatic screening was 
> likely to be. I also wondered about the pop screening efficiency too.
> 
> Chris Woolf
> 
> 
>> On 25/03/2022 12:55, Tim Cowlishaw wrote:
>> I've not used the mic, but I do know Jack Reynolds who makes them, he's now 
>> working at BBC R in the audio dept, and he's a good guy and knows his 
>> stuff! I suspect he might also lurk on here... :-)
>> 
>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 at 13:24, Chris Woolf  wrote:
>> 
>>A friend asked me about this mic. Have to admit I have never heard of
>>it, or of the company.
>> 
>>Does anyone on the list have any knowledge, thoughts or comments?
>> 
>>Chris Woolf
>> 
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Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Ralf R Radermacher]

Am 25.03.22 um 14:17 schrieb Jack Reynolds:


I have some demo mics available if you want to try one out.


I take it the capsules are electrets. Is the mic phantom powered or PIP?

Does the mic come with individual correction data?

Is a more detailed data sheet available?

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher  -  Köln/Cologne, Germany
Blog  : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
Web   : http://www.fotoralf.de
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Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Chris Woolf]

Thank you, sir, for some helpful answers. My apologies for my ignorance 
of your work;}


I'll continue some of the conversation off list...

Chris


On 25/03/2022 13:17, Jack Reynolds wrote:

Hi Chris,
The 3D printing does have several advantages from a design point of view. I can 
make structures that would be impossible with traditional methods.
I nickel coat the nylon SLS parts with very good shielding results.
The nylon also doesn’t get as ‘cold’ as metal bodied mics so that and IP67 
waterproof LEMO connectors makes them very good for outdoor use.

For windshields I have custom made Rycote BBGs that sit the array at the centre 
of the windshield.

I have some demo mics available if you want to try one out.

Cheers

Jack

Sent from my iPhone


On 25 Mar 2022, at 12:58, Chris Woolf  wrote:

He may well do!

But I was intrigued by the use of 3D printing for what are always going to be 
very low sales numbers, and how efficient the electrostatic screening was 
likely to be. I also wondered about the pop screening efficiency too.

Chris Woolf



On 25/03/2022 12:55, Tim Cowlishaw wrote:
I've not used the mic, but I do know Jack Reynolds who makes them, he's now working 
at BBC R in the audio dept, and he's a good guy and knows his stuff! I 
suspect he might also lurk on here... :-)

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 at 13:24, Chris Woolf  wrote:

A friend asked me about this mic. Have to admit I have never heard of
it, or of the company.

Does anyone on the list have any knowledge, thoughts or comments?

Chris Woolf

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Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Tim Cowlishaw]

I've not used the mic, but I do know Jack Reynolds who makes them, he's now
working at BBC R in the audio dept, and he's a good guy and knows his
stuff! I suspect he might also lurk on here... :-)

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 at 13:24, Chris Woolf  wrote:

> A friend asked me about this mic. Have to admit I have never heard of
> it, or of the company.
>
> Does anyone on the list have any knowledge, thoughts or comments?
>
> Chris Woolf
>
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> Sursound@music.vt.edu
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Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Tom Slater]

Hi there,

I've used one but don't own one. Best 2nd order mic I've used or heard
recordings from by far!

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 at 12:55, Tim Cowlishaw  wrote:

> I've not used the mic, but I do know Jack Reynolds who makes them, he's now
> working at BBC R in the audio dept, and he's a good guy and knows his
> stuff! I suspect he might also lurk on here... :-)
>
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 at 13:24, Chris Woolf  wrote:
>
> > A friend asked me about this mic. Have to admit I have never heard of
> > it, or of the company.
> >
> > Does anyone on the list have any knowledge, thoughts or comments?
> >
> > Chris Woolf
> >
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
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> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
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Re: [Sursound] Reynolds mics

[Chris Woolf]

A friend asked me about this mic. Have to admit I have never heard of 
it, or of the company.


Does anyone on the list have any knowledge, thoughts or comments?

Chris Woolf

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