Re: [biofuel] suitability of fuel injection sytems for biofuel?

[Keith Addison]

>ur seals and stuff are rubber-free!  the biodiesel will corrode 
>rubber like nobody's business.

Are you sure about that? It might, and also it might not, but it 
won't do it "like nobody's business" - unless you don't wash the 
biodiesel, in which case it's not the biodiesel that's rotting the 
rubber it's the excess methanol.

Biodiesel and your vehicle: Compatability -- Rubber
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#rubber

Best

Keith



>hey mike!
>
>biodiesel should work fine in ur volkswagon, since its made to run 
>on diesel with a tdi anyways.  you may have some trouble as cold 
>weather sets in, raising the temp of combustion.  a heating wire and 
>or directing air intake thru the manafold should fix that. this can 
>be fixed at most dealership garages or anyplace that deals with 
>tractors and other diesel engines.  also, since its an older car, 
>have a shop-tech check that all ur seals and stuff are rubber-free! 
>the biodiesel will corrode rubber like nobody's business.  hope this 
>helps, and lemme know how it goes.
>
>good luck!
>   ---beth---


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Re: [biofuel] Diesel redline

[Hakan Falk]

I studied this a long time ago and cannot remember all,
but it is more to it than rpm. Depending on fuel and
construction, power to rpm is more a bell like curve.

I do remember that a diesel is very much better at lower
rpm, than gasoline. Confirmed by my practical experiences
under many years.

Hakan


At 02:52 AM 9/22/2003, you wrote:

>- Original Message -
>From: "Alan Petrillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> > Here's a question for you engineers out there.
> >
> > What limits the rev redline on diesel engines?
> >
> > I've noticed that a lot of diesels are limited to revs down in the 3000
> > rpm range, and IMHO this is one of the things that limits their power to
> > weight ratio.
> >
> >
> > AP
>
>Alan, whilst I am certainly no engineer, as an owner of a diesel vehicle I
>can report some observations and pose a few more questions.
>
>Perhaps the solider construction and hence weight of the pistons, rods and
>crank limit the revs. Some large truck engines are lucky to rev to 2000 and
>large marine diesels don't even see 1000 rpm.
>
>The tacho on my Hilux 2.2l diesel goes yellow at 4300  rpm and red at 4800
>rpm.
>In practise it just runs out of go at 4000 rpm, downhill runs have seen in
>excess of 4000 rpm come up but I rarely do that out of respect for the
>vehicle, its dynamics just aren't suited to that use. My usual practise is
>to keep the revs between 2500 and 4000. Steep hills with a full load test
>the limitations of the four speed box especially the gap between second and
>third. Often second gear has to held because the revs would be too low in
>third, the engine will happily run up the revs in second so I back off on
>the throttle and maintain a reasonable rpm. There is a healthy ammount of
>torque available at the 3000+ level and if you can get the revs up there in
>top gear the vehicle will run happily at 100 to 110 kph all day, empty or
>fully loaded.
>
>Having been a "petrol head" in my younger days I often wonder whether
>camshaft profile ( valve timing) influences diesel engines as much as it
>does petrol engines.
>Would individual inlet pipes be better than the branched manifolds that are
>usually standard?  Certainly headers are available aftermarket and big bore
>exhaust systems. Would porting and pollishing or even chamber shape
>modification have an effect?
>
>Regards,   Paul Gobert.



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[biofuel] Re: phosphoric acid in Foolproof method

[skillshare]

Hmm,, I'm not sure how to respond. I assume you're talking about 
neutralising, as it's rather rare to make biodiesel that doesn't 
contain some alkaline substances. If you're reading pH 7 in 
recently-made, unwashed biodiesel you're probably not getting an 
accurate reading.  
If you neutralise the soap and catalyst in your fuel using acid, I 
believe you are then forming some kind of metallic salt. This should 
probably be washed out with water for various reasons.

what way are you reading this pH? 

I bubblewash, and I now bubblewash with very hot water which gives 
great results. I also reuse the 2nd/3rd or 4th wash water for other 
batches- countercurrent wash water reuse. My goal is to reduce the 
water I need to use. 
 On my last 45-gallon batch of fuel, I used only 10 gallons of new 
water (last wash) and 20 gallons of water recycled from previous 
batches. 
Here are a lot more details about the bubblewashing that I do: 

http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html

I've changed a few details since I wrote that article. I now recommend 
hot water washes very strongly, I now use 1/4 water to 3/4 biodiesel, 
and I usually now do only a 1 or 2-hour bubbling on the first wash. I 
make my own wash stones out of small grindstones or little pieces of 
sharpening stones because the aquarium ones I've used all disintegrate 
in biodiesel eventually.  Because it's very hot right now here, and I 
work outside, all the fuel I make is turning out to be good quality 
and therefore the washes produce no emulsion due to quality and the 
higher wash temperatures. I;m curious to see how much this changes 
once it's winter- the colder weather makes a difference in both 
washing and in processing if temperatures of the processor drop too 
much (my experience last winter, slightly improved by adding much more 
insulation!)). 
good luck!
mark



--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Pieter Koole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi girl-mark-fire,
> Is there any sense in washing the BD when the pH is around 7 ?
> I use the single stage base method.
> If you recommend washing, what is the best way to do so ?
> 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,
> Pieter Koole
> Netherlands
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "girl_mark_fire" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 8:08 AM
> Subject: [biofuel] Re: phosphoric acid in Foolproof method
> 
> 
> > I think that part of the acid advice comes from Terry UK's old, 
old
> > message that's up at your site- 'add a gloop' I think it says.  It 
was
> > the best info there was at the time (a lot better than the
> > bound-for-emulsion suggestions in Tickell's book which tell you to
> > basically spray water at the stuff, I've been there done that and 
boy
> > did it confuse me when it went to emulsion).
> >  Terry's article is where I first saw bubblewashing instructions 
and
> > though Aleks gives a different way of doing it, the 'just add a 
gloop'
> > of acid bit sticks in one's mind I think. I thought that 'just 
keep
> > adding acid' advice from Terry also really threw me off when I was
> > first starting out with washing, as it didn't really explain 
emulsion
> > other than to suggest fixing it with acid (with little accounting 
for
> > different strengths of acid, etc...) Which is primarily why I 
wrote
> > that article you've got up there. Perhaps Terry's article could 
use a
> > link to your notes on acid in case people don' t find it by
> > themselves?
> >
> > by the way when you use acids to break emulsion, how much acid do
> > people use, compared to the amount needed to get the water pH to 
go
> > neutral? It seems to me that it takes a while to see visible 
results
> > by the 'just add some till emulsion clears' method, so people 
probably
> > overdo the acid waiting to see results. Just a hunch.  Maybe a 
more
> > scientific approach to that particular problem is in order as 
well?
> >
> > (I am a very big fan of hot water washing now and dont ' get 
emulsion
> > at all no matter how vigerous the wash is, in fact I've been
> > experimenting with all the 'emulsifying' wash methods- what Todd 
calls
> > "Frog in a Blender'.  I'ts still quite hot outside right now so it
> > doesn't cost me much in energy to heat. In winter it'll be a 
different
> > story)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > . So I still don't recommend
> > > >acidulating as a matter of course, unless you know what you're

Re: [biofuel] Study: Forestry Waste Could Help Meet Kyoto Targets

[Heath Blount]

Western wildfires and Bush's healthy forests enitiative can possiby serve
some benefit to bio-mass projects in the us.  Once Bush is gone  and
sustainable forestry is given the validity it deserves, that is...
A non-profit in Santa Fe,NM called Local Energy, is in the process of
design, economic development study, and environmental impact study for a
bio-mass generated central heating district for the City of Santa Fe.  The
project is being funded in part by a $1.3 million grant from the Dept of
Agriculture.   Where space and water heating comprise almost 70% of energy
consumption, the economic and environmental benefits are generally obvious,
considering the recent publicity of the natural gas crisis.

check them out at www.localenergy.org


Heath


 Original Message - 
From: murdoch
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 8:12 PM
Subject: [biofuel] Study: Forestry Waste Could Help Meet Kyoto Targets


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Re: [biofuel] suitability of fuel injection sytems for biofuel?

[Beth]

hey mike!
 
biodiesel should work fine in ur volkswagon, since its made to run on diesel 
with a tdi anyways.  you may have some trouble as cold weather sets in, raising 
the temp of combustion.  a heating wire and or directing air intake thru the 
manafold should fix that. this can be fixed at most dealership garages or 
anyplace that deals with tractors and other diesel engines.  also, since its an 
older car, have a shop-tech check that all ur seals and stuff are rubber-free!  
the biodiesel will corrode rubber like nobody's business.  hope this helps, and 
lemme know how it goes.
 
good luck!
   ---beth---


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Re: [biofuel] 3 Questions NO ONE wants to answer

[Heath Blount]

>These questions are in reference to the energy crisis we are having

>right now.
>
>1) Do you support the concept of a "Hydrogen Economy"?
>
>2) Do you support nuclear energy to generate electricity?
>
>3) If you support the "Hydrogen Economy" concept, what energy source
>will we use to make the hydrogen?
>
>No candidate has responded to date.
>
In response:

1. No, a monoculture energy economy is the cause of our current
energy/socio-economic crisis(oil), not to mention deforestation(wood).  A
diverse sustainable energy policy emphasizing local needs and "resources"
for individual communities is the only rational choice.

2. NO!   considering there is presently enough nuclear waste to fill
commercial storage containers to wrap the equator.  Not to mention the last
privately owned nuclear plant to come on line and make a profit was built in
the early seventies.(besides the navy)

3.  Hydrogen however can serve some use, when there is an existing
sustainable energy source provided to start the reaction.  An example could
be an industrial plant run on bio-mass source.  The smokestacks are fitted
with radiant/heat energy collectors that can start the reaction, the
resultant energy can then be converted to electricity for the plants support
services, and possible any immediately surrounding buildings/homes.
I'm sure there are many possiblities where wasted energy is merely "a
resource out of place."

Heath


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Re: [biofuel] 3 Questions NO ONE wants to answer

[Beth]

here is an answer to the other two questions no one wants to answer...
 
yes, i do support the concept of a hydrogen economy
and as for the energy source, isnt there a way to use water decomposition as an 
energy source by breaking the hydro-bonds? i think i even saw car plans-very 
kool
lemme know if im way off on this


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Re: [biofuel] Good car to buy?????

[kline]

> I'm looking to buy an older diesel car in which to eventually start
> running biodiesel in. I'm a student, so it has to be low$$$. Any
> suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff
> Vancouver, BC, CANADA
> Areyou looking for a car or truck or van/suv what?  If a car, I'd say
find an old Mercedes diesel.  Word is they are excellent for biofuels
experimentation and very tough.  Late 70s and early 80s models still
have real value.  An older VW IDI might also be good.  If your looking
for vans and trucks, the old Ford 6.9L diesel found in the 1983-87 vans
and pickups has a good reputation.  The Dodge 12V Cummins diesel is also
a good motor, some say superior to the Fords.  The only thing you might
want to avoid is the late 70s to early 80s GM 350/5.7L diesel.  It is an
engine that was converted from gasoline and very poorly designed.  My
grandfather ran one of those until his death, but he was very handy, and
aparently also very lucky.  Best of luck
J.D.
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
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> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
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[biofuel] Water Radiolysis

[Alex]

Here something about generating hydrogen from water.
Alex

 http://www.nuenergy.org/radiolysis.htm


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RE: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy

[Hakan Falk]

Kirk,

I am the first one to agree with you and especially for hot water
production. Hot water production with solar, pays back in 0 to
5 years, depending where you live and if you buy or make the
equipment yourself. This is one of the best investments possible,
among all investment alternatives out there.

I am in process to make more info on our site, and this is an
educational introduction,

http://energy.saving.nu/solarenergy/

Hakan

At 01:15 AM 9/22/2003, you wrote:
>I see solar thermal as easier on the environment. If you want to see what
>silicon purification and fabrication do to the environment look at the San
>Jose Ca. water. Also solar thermal is lower tech.
>
>http://www.ecomall.com/activism/solar.htm
>In Egypt in 1912, Shuman and Boys used the sun to generate a 60 horsepower
>engine for a irrigation project. They built a 220 foot longparabolic trough
>collector which, in principle, is still in use today. In 1939, the first
>modern attempt to heat houses with solar energy started with a model home
>built at MIT. Solar energy is not new and is a well-proven technology. To
>quote Sir George Porter, "If sunbeams were weapons of war, we would have had
>solar energy centuries ago."
>
>http://www.solarenergy.com/info_history.html
>This page is well worth reading. Several machines described.
>
>Also see
>http://www.deathvalleypizza.com/1time___.html
>
>Kirk
>
>-Original Message-
>From: murdoch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 3:49 PM
>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy
>
>
>Up to now the price of PV has seemed to come down, but I don't have a
>strong sense of it.  Enough production still seems to be owned by the
>Oil Giants that I try to refrain from over-optimism as to the pace of
>the decline in price.  I can see how someone in Japan or Germany might
>be somewhat more optimistic as those countries seem to have non-Oil
>Solar companies.
>
>On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:40:34 +0200, you wrote:
>
> >
> >Hi Martin,
> >
> >I did not think that you were that old, but yes in the beginning of the
>1960's
> >and for nuclear power.
> >
> >Hakan
> >
> >At 10:53 PM 9/21/2003, you wrote:
> >>I'm sorry for being nostalgic, but haven't we heard about electricity
> >>being "too cheap to meter"?
> >>
> >> >Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling
> >> >or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to
> >> >make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier.  Some people believe that
> >> >concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of
> >> >electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can
> >> >be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current
> >> >gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the
> >> >hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
>http://www.mokindustrie
>s.com/pages/762107/index.htm
> >> >
> >> >http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html
> >> >
> >> >http://www.solarsystems.com.au/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> >Biofuels list archives:
> >http://archive.nnytech.net/
> >
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> >
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> >
> >
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
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>
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>
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**
If you want to take a look on a project
that is very close to my heart, go to:
http://energysavingnow.com/
http://hakan.vitools.net/ My .Net Card
http://hakan.vitools.org/ About me
http://vitools.com/ My webmaster site
http://playa.nu/ Our small rental activities
**

"No flag is large enough to cover the shame of
killing innocent people" -- Howard Zinn

"Nobody grows old merely by living a number of years.
We grow old by deserting our ideals. Years may
wrinkle the skin, but to give up enthusiasm
wrinkles the soul." - Unknown

[biofuels-biz] Study: Forestry Waste Could Help Meet Kyoto Targets

[murdoch]

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[biofuel] Study: Forestry Waste Could Help Meet Kyoto Targets

[murdoch]

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Re: [biofuel] Diesel redline

[gobie]

- Original Message -
From: "Alan Petrillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


> Here's a question for you engineers out there.
>
> What limits the rev redline on diesel engines?
>
> I've noticed that a lot of diesels are limited to revs down in the 3000
> rpm range, and IMHO this is one of the things that limits their power to
> weight ratio.
>
>
> AP

Alan, whilst I am certainly no engineer, as an owner of a diesel vehicle I
can report some observations and pose a few more questions.

Perhaps the solider construction and hence weight of the pistons, rods and
crank limit the revs. Some large truck engines are lucky to rev to 2000 and
large marine diesels don't even see 1000 rpm.

The tacho on my Hilux 2.2l diesel goes yellow at 4300  rpm and red at 4800
rpm.
In practise it just runs out of go at 4000 rpm, downhill runs have seen in
excess of 4000 rpm come up but I rarely do that out of respect for the
vehicle, its dynamics just aren't suited to that use. My usual practise is
to keep the revs between 2500 and 4000. Steep hills with a full load test
the limitations of the four speed box especially the gap between second and
third. Often second gear has to held because the revs would be too low in
third, the engine will happily run up the revs in second so I back off on
the throttle and maintain a reasonable rpm. There is a healthy ammount of
torque available at the 3000+ level and if you can get the revs up there in
top gear the vehicle will run happily at 100 to 110 kph all day, empty or
fully loaded.

Having been a "petrol head" in my younger days I often wonder whether
camshaft profile ( valve timing) influences diesel engines as much as it
does petrol engines.
Would individual inlet pipes be better than the branched manifolds that are
usually standard?  Certainly headers are available aftermarket and big bore
exhaust systems. Would porting and pollishing or even chamber shape
modification have an effect?

Regards,   Paul Gobert.



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RE: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy

[kirk]

I see solar thermal as easier on the environment. If you want to see what
silicon purification and fabrication do to the environment look at the San
Jose Ca. water. Also solar thermal is lower tech.

http://www.ecomall.com/activism/solar.htm
In Egypt in 1912, Shuman and Boys used the sun to generate a 60 horsepower
engine for a irrigation project. They built a 220 foot longparabolic trough
collector which, in principle, is still in use today. In 1939, the first
modern attempt to heat houses with solar energy started with a model home
built at MIT. Solar energy is not new and is a well-proven technology. To
quote Sir George Porter, "If sunbeams were weapons of war, we would have had
solar energy centuries ago."

http://www.solarenergy.com/info_history.html
This page is well worth reading. Several machines described.

Also see
http://www.deathvalleypizza.com/1time___.html

Kirk

-Original Message-
From: murdoch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 3:49 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy


Up to now the price of PV has seemed to come down, but I don't have a
strong sense of it.  Enough production still seems to be owned by the
Oil Giants that I try to refrain from over-optimism as to the pace of
the decline in price.  I can see how someone in Japan or Germany might
be somewhat more optimistic as those countries seem to have non-Oil
Solar companies.

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:40:34 +0200, you wrote:

>
>Hi Martin,
>
>I did not think that you were that old, but yes in the beginning of the
1960's
>and for nuclear power.
>
>Hakan
>
>At 10:53 PM 9/21/2003, you wrote:
>>I'm sorry for being nostalgic, but haven't we heard about electricity
>>being "too cheap to meter"?
>>
>> >Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling
>> >or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to
>> >make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier.  Some people believe that
>> >concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of
>> >electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can
>> >be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current
>> >gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the
>> >hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed.
>> >
>> >
>>
http://www.mokindustrie
s.com/pages/762107/index.htm
>> >
>> >http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html
>> >
>> >http://www.solarsystems.com.au/
>
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>



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Re: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Economy

[Keith Addison]

Hi Pieter

(is that better? )

>To Keith,
>Thanks a lot Keith,

You're welcome.

>I will do some experiments and keep you informed if you whish.

Please do! Us rather than me - post your results here.

>Why is gold or platinum used, while it also works with carbon ?
>In this process chlorine is produced. Isn't chlorine poison ?

I can answer the chlorine one - yes. I think if you bubble both gases 
through water you get hydrochloric acid. Need some chemists here - 
Kirk knows about this stuff, maybe he'll tell you.

>I tend to stick a bit to my first question : How can I procuce H2 out of
>water, without the electrodes solube ? I can understand that metal
>electrodes solube in chlorine or NaOH, but electrodes also solube because of
>giving away electrones. I have tried it with stainless steel electrodes, and
>they meld away like nothing. Doesn't that happen with carbon ? Why (not) ?

Give it a try - if they do melt maybe it'll be slow, and carbon rods 
from dead torch batteries won't cost you an arm and a leg.

>Keith,
>I am very much impressed by the amount of energy ( not BD, but human
>energy ) you put into this item.

Thankyou Pieter! It's a good deal though - I get a great deal out of 
it too, and so does Journey to Forever.

>Sooner or later the world will be greatfull to you.

You think so?? If so I bet it'll be later than sooner!

>Please keep going !!

Sure will.

>( How do you know about "Dag Pieter" ? ).

It's kind of rusty (if not melted away to nothing). Goede morgen 
Pieter? I used to work at the KIT in Amsterdam. Also I used to be a 
South African.

>Met vriendelijke groeten,

And you too.

Keith

>Pieter Koole
>Netherlands
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 12:51 PM
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Economy
>
>
> > >Hi all,
> > >I would like to try some experiments on hydrogen.
> > >First : What is the best way to make it out of water ? What electrodes
> > >should I use, so they don't go in solution ?
> > >What electrolite should I use ?
> > >Is there a link where I can find some information for beginners on this
>item
> > >?
> > >
> > >By the way : I have been driving over 100.000 km on BD now, without any
> > >problems at all. Just great!
> > >
> > >Met vriendelijke groeten,
> > >Pieter Koole
> > >Netherlands
> >
> > Dag Pieter
> >
> > "Caveman Chemistry" previously had a nice description and slide show
> > of producing Chlorine, Hydrogen, and Lye from table salt, using PET
> > bottles, flashlight batteries, glue and stuff. "Wire electrodes would
> > be corroded by the lye and chlorine. We could use gold or platinum
> > wire, but the poor man's inert electrode is carbon. The easiest place
> > to get carbon electrodes is from a flashlight battery. It is
> > imperative that you use ordinary flashlight batteries, not alkaline
> > batteries, since alkaline batteries put the zinc in the center and
> > the carbon on the outside. Ordinary flashlight batteries have a
> > carbon rod down the middle and a zinc can on the outside."
> >
> > Now that site has changed, and I can't find this section there anymore.
> > http://cavemanchemistry.com/cavebook/index.html
> > Caveman Chemistry
> >
> > Only these:
> > http://www.cavemanchemistry.com/cavebook/chchloralkali2.html
> >
> > http://www.cavemanchemistry.com/cavebook/chchloralkali.html
> >
> > Here's the previous text though, below, without the slide show, hope
> > it makes sense.
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> >
> > Here are the supplies we need: A 2-liter soft drink bottle, 2 smaller
> > soft drink bottles (about 500 mL each), 2 ordinary size D flashlight
> > batteries, and some waterproof glue which will stick to PET plastic.




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[biofuel] Good car to buy?????

[jeffreyjkeith]

I'm looking to buy an older diesel car in which to eventually start 
running biodiesel in. I'm a student, so it has to be low$$$. Any 
suggestions?

Thanks,

Jeff
Vancouver, BC, CANADA



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Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy

[robert luis rabello]

Martin wrote:

>  I'm sorry for being nostalgic, but haven't we heard about electricity
>
> being "too cheap to meter"?
>

Yes.  That's why most of us aren't exactly waiting with baited
breath. . .


robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782



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Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy

[murdoch]

Up to now the price of PV has seemed to come down, but I don't have a
strong sense of it.  Enough production still seems to be owned by the
Oil Giants that I try to refrain from over-optimism as to the pace of
the decline in price.  I can see how someone in Japan or Germany might
be somewhat more optimistic as those countries seem to have non-Oil
Solar companies.

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:40:34 +0200, you wrote:

>
>Hi Martin,
>
>I did not think that you were that old, but yes in the beginning of the 1960's
>and for nuclear power.
>
>Hakan
>
>At 10:53 PM 9/21/2003, you wrote:
>>I'm sorry for being nostalgic, but haven't we heard about electricity
>>being "too cheap to meter"?
>>
>> >Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling
>> >or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to
>> >make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier.  Some people believe that
>> >concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of
>> >electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can
>> >be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current
>> >gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the
>> >hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed.
>> >
>> > 
>> http://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htm
>> >
>> >http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html
>> >
>> >http://www.solarsystems.com.au/
>
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy

[Hakan Falk]

Hi Martin,

I did not think that you were that old, but yes in the beginning of the 1960's
and for nuclear power.

Hakan

At 10:53 PM 9/21/2003, you wrote:
>I'm sorry for being nostalgic, but haven't we heard about electricity
>being "too cheap to meter"?
>
>
>robert luis rabello wrote:
>
> >Hakan Falk wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>I would agree with you, if it was higher R/P values for natural gas.
> >>With the
> >>current 7 years for US, the demands of independence of import becomes
> >>an
> >>even a more impossible dream. I do not have to describe the current US
> >>
> >>situation on NG again. Hydrogen from NG achieve nothing and the best
> >>bet is coal/nuclear at the end. It is already feverish activities in
> >>US to
> >>build
> >>a lot more nuclear power stations.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >No serious advocate of a hydrogen economy suggests that using a
> >single source of hydrogen production should be pursued.  The people who
> >are pushing hard for hydrogen would like to see a diversity of
> >resources, ranging from reforming natural gas and coal, to
> >methanogenesis of garbage, pyrolysis of biomass, algal production AND
> >electrolysis in situations that favor it, whether this is nuclear, wind
> >or any of the options explained below.
> >
> >Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling
> >or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to
> >make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier.  Some people believe that
> >concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of
> >electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can
> >be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current
> >gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the
> >hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed.
> >
> > 
> http://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htm
> >
> >http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html
> >
> >http://www.solarsystems.com.au/



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Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy

[Martin]

I'm sorry for being nostalgic, but haven't we heard about electricity 
being "too cheap to meter"?


robert luis rabello wrote:

>Hakan Falk wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I would agree with you, if it was higher R/P values for natural gas.
>>With the
>>current 7 years for US, the demands of independence of import becomes
>>an
>>even a more impossible dream. I do not have to describe the current US
>>
>>situation on NG again. Hydrogen from NG achieve nothing and the best
>>bet is coal/nuclear at the end. It is already feverish activities in
>>US to
>>build
>>a lot more nuclear power stations.
>>
>>
>
>No serious advocate of a hydrogen economy suggests that using a
>single source of hydrogen production should be pursued.  The people who
>are pushing hard for hydrogen would like to see a diversity of
>resources, ranging from reforming natural gas and coal, to
>methanogenesis of garbage, pyrolysis of biomass, algal production AND
>electrolysis in situations that favor it, whether this is nuclear, wind
>or any of the options explained below.
>
>Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling
>or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to
>make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier.  Some people believe that
>concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of
>electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can
>be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current
>gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the
>hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed.
>
>http://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htm
>
>http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html
>
>http://www.solarsystems.com.au/
>
>
>
>  
>


-- 
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://infoarchive.net/
http://nnytech.net/



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[biofuel] Diesel redline

[Alan Petrillo]

Here's a question for you engineers out there.

What limits the rev redline on diesel engines?

I've noticed that a lot of diesels are limited to revs down in the 3000 
rpm range, and IMHO this is one of the things that limits their power to 
weight ratio.


AP


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Re: [biofuel] Re: phosphoric acid in Foolproof method

[Pieter Koole]

Hi girl-mark-fire,
Is there any sense in washing the BD when the pH is around 7 ?
I use the single stage base method.
If you recommend washing, what is the best way to do so ?

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands



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- Original Message -
From: "girl_mark_fire" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 8:08 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Re: phosphoric acid in Foolproof method


> I think that part of the acid advice comes from Terry UK's old, old
> message that's up at your site- 'add a gloop' I think it says.  It was
> the best info there was at the time (a lot better than the
> bound-for-emulsion suggestions in Tickell's book which tell you to
> basically spray water at the stuff, I've been there done that and boy
> did it confuse me when it went to emulsion).
>  Terry's article is where I first saw bubblewashing instructions and
> though Aleks gives a different way of doing it, the 'just add a gloop'
> of acid bit sticks in one's mind I think. I thought that 'just keep
> adding acid' advice from Terry also really threw me off when I was
> first starting out with washing, as it didn't really explain emulsion
> other than to suggest fixing it with acid (with little accounting for
> different strengths of acid, etc...) Which is primarily why I wrote
> that article you've got up there. Perhaps Terry's article could use a
> link to your notes on acid in case people don' t find it by
> themselves?
>
> by the way when you use acids to break emulsion, how much acid do
> people use, compared to the amount needed to get the water pH to go
> neutral? It seems to me that it takes a while to see visible results
> by the 'just add some till emulsion clears' method, so people probably
> overdo the acid waiting to see results. Just a hunch.  Maybe a more
> scientific approach to that particular problem is in order as well?
>
> (I am a very big fan of hot water washing now and dont ' get emulsion
> at all no matter how vigerous the wash is, in fact I've been
> experimenting with all the 'emulsifying' wash methods- what Todd calls
> "Frog in a Blender'.  I'ts still quite hot outside right now so it
> doesn't cost me much in energy to heat. In winter it'll be a different
> story)
>
>
>
>
> . So I still don't recommend
> > >acidulating as a matter of course, unless you know what you're
> doing.
> > >It can be done right if you do a titration for soap/catalyst first
> to
> > >find out how much acid to use (that HCL/ bromophenol blue indicator
> > >titration that Juan described a week or so ago).
> >
> > Why do a titration? Adding it slowly while monitoring the pH should
> do.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> I'd like to test this out against that soap test, see if it turns out
> the same. Someone's already done the research to figure out what the
> soap test titration tells you in exact numbers, so it's one of those
> rare things in biodiesel shadetree testing, a quantitative measure.
> It's what I was looking for a year ago with quest
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
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>
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>
>



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Re: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Economy

[Pieter Koole]

To Keith,
Thanks a lot Keith,
I will do some experiments and keep you informed if you whish.
Why is gold or platinum used, while it also works with carbon ?
In this process chlorine is produced. Isn't chlorine poison ?

I tend to stick a bit to my first question : How can I procuce H2 out of
water, without the electrodes solube ? I can understand that metal
electrodes solube in chlorine or NaOH, but electrodes also solube because of
giving away electrones. I have tried it with stainless steel electrodes, and
they meld away like nothing. Doesn't that happen with carbon ? Why (not) ?

Keith,
I am very much impressed by the amount of energy ( not BD, but human
energy ) you put into this item.
Sooner or later the world will be greatfull to you.
Please keep going !!

( How do you know about "Dag Pieter" ? ).

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands



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- Original Message -
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Economy


> >Hi all,
> >I would like to try some experiments on hydrogen.
> >First : What is the best way to make it out of water ? What electrodes
> >should I use, so they don't go in solution ?
> >What electrolite should I use ?
> >Is there a link where I can find some information for beginners on this
item
> >?
> >
> >By the way : I have been driving over 100.000 km on BD now, without any
> >problems at all. Just great!
> >
> >Met vriendelijke groeten,
> >Pieter Koole
> >Netherlands
>
> Dag Pieter
>
> "Caveman Chemistry" previously had a nice description and slide show
> of producing Chlorine, Hydrogen, and Lye from table salt, using PET
> bottles, flashlight batteries, glue and stuff. "Wire electrodes would
> be corroded by the lye and chlorine. We could use gold or platinum
> wire, but the poor man's inert electrode is carbon. The easiest place
> to get carbon electrodes is from a flashlight battery. It is
> imperative that you use ordinary flashlight batteries, not alkaline
> batteries, since alkaline batteries put the zinc in the center and
> the carbon on the outside. Ordinary flashlight batteries have a
> carbon rod down the middle and a zinc can on the outside."
>
> Now that site has changed, and I can't find this section there anymore.
> http://cavemanchemistry.com/cavebook/index.html
> Caveman Chemistry
>
> Only these:
> http://www.cavemanchemistry.com/cavebook/chchloralkali2.html
>
> http://www.cavemanchemistry.com/cavebook/chchloralkali.html
>
> Here's the previous text though, below, without the slide show, hope
> it makes sense.
>
> regards
>
> Keith
>
>
>
> Here are the supplies we need: A 2-liter soft drink bottle, 2 smaller
> soft drink bottles (about 500 mL each), 2 ordinary size D flashlight
> batteries, and some waterproof glue which will stick to PET plastic.
>
> Wire electrodes would be corroded by the lye and chlorine. We could
> use gold or platinum wire, but the poor man's inert electrode is
> carbon. The easiest place to get carbon electrodes is from a
> flashlight battery. It is imperative that you use ordinary flashlight
> batteries, not alkaline batteries, since alkaline batteries put the
> zinc in the center and the carbon on the outside. Ordinary flashlight
> batteries have a carbon rod down the middle and a zinc can on the
> outside.
>
> You should wear glasses and gloves for this part. Peel away the paper
> wrapper to expose the zinc can underneath.
>
> Use pliers to peel away the zinc can, exposing the electrolyte paste
> within. Loosen up this paste until the carbon rod is free and then
> remove the carbon rod with pliers.
>
> The electrolyte paste is not all that harmful, but it can be messy.
> Do not eat this paste, rub it all over your body, feed it to stray
> animals, rub it in your eyes, or any of the 1,268 other stupid things
> that could be done with it. Just throw it in the trash and wash your
> hands after handling it.
>
> Just to cover all the bases, the same is not true for alkaline
> batteries. Their electrolyte paste is alkaline and it is caustic. You
> should definitely wash your hands soon after contact with this paste.
> But you won't get that contact in this project, since alkaline cells
> don't have carbon rods.
>
> You need two carbon rods. Here they are, inert and electrically
conductive.
>
> You will cut the top off the 2 liter bottle and the bottoms off the
> two smaller bottles. The size of the sm

Re: [biofuel] WVO burners...

[Pieter Koole]

What is a Turk burner ?
Is it better than Mothers Earth waste oil burner ?

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands

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- Original Message -
From: "Tony Clark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] WVO burners...


> Keith,
> It is good to see someone else using the glycerol/sawdust 1 litre fire
logs
> I told you about some time ago.
> How moist are you making the mix?  I have tried a full range of mixes, but
> they all work well although the wetter ones tend to "weep" thru the
carton,
> making storage a problem.  The waxy coating also gets on my hands along
with
> the coloured inks used to print the cartons. (these were filled during our
> last summer).
>
> regards,
> Tony Clark
>
> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 05:47:15 +0900
>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: WVO burners...
>
> Hi Mike
>
> >Thanks Keith,
> >
> >I must say I am honored to hear from you, as I have always been a silent
> >admirer of your work.
> SNIP
>  We also have a more or less endless
> supply of offcut wood, and shavings which we mix with biodiesel
> by-product and cram it into 1-litre milk cartons. They burn really
> hot - three of them will heat an 80-litre bathtub to 60 deg C-plus in
> 40 minutes. They'd work well in those double-walled water heaters. So
> would the wood, and so would a Turk burner I think.
> SNIP
> Best wishes
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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>
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>
>


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Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy

[Pieter Koole]

Hi all,
I would like to try some experiments on hydrogen.
First : What is the best way to make it out of water ? What electrodes
should I use, so they don't go in solution ?
What electrolite should I use ?
Is there a link where I can find some information for beginners on this item
?

By the way : I have been driving over 100.000 km on BD now, without any
problems at all. Just great!

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands


The information contained in this message (including attachments) is
confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s)
only.  If you have received this message in error please delete it and
notify the originator immediately.  The unauthorized use, disclosure,
copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be
liable for direct, special, indirect or
consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this
message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result
of any virus being passed on.



- Original Message -
From: "robert luis rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy


>
>
> Hakan Falk wrote:
>
> >
> > I would agree with you, if it was higher R/P values for natural gas.
> > With the
> > current 7 years for US, the demands of independence of import becomes
> > an
> > even a more impossible dream. I do not have to describe the current US
> >
> > situation on NG again. Hydrogen from NG achieve nothing and the best
> > bet is coal/nuclear at the end. It is already feverish activities in
> > US to
> > build
> > a lot more nuclear power stations.
>
> No serious advocate of a hydrogen economy suggests that using a
> single source of hydrogen production should be pursued.  The people who
> are pushing hard for hydrogen would like to see a diversity of
> resources, ranging from reforming natural gas and coal, to
> methanogenesis of garbage, pyrolysis of biomass, algal production AND
> electrolysis in situations that favor it, whether this is nuclear, wind
> or any of the options explained below.
>
> Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling
> or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to
> make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier.  Some people believe that
> concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of
> electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can
> be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current
> gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the
> hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed.
>
> http://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htm
>
> http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html
>
> http://www.solarsystems.com.au/
>
>
>
> > Hydrogen production at home? That will make Osama bin Laden happy.
>
> I've made hydrogen at home.  No terrorist has ever approached me
> about this!
>
> robert luis rabello
> "The Edge of Justice"
> Adventure for Your Mind
> http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>



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Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy

[robert luis rabello]

Hakan Falk wrote:

>
> Robert,
>
> You are right, it is potential in hydrogen, as it is in many things.
> Fusion and other technologies are very interesting.
>
> I think that if you get mass produced PV with 30% efficiency
> and at 1 cent/kWh, it will be a fantastic breakthrough and the
> largest immediate benefit would be in further development of
> existing EV and especially NEV technologies, they are "ready
> for use".

You are hitting on an important principle.  If electricity could be
produced at such a price, would it not be wiser, from an efficiency
perspective, to use that power for EV's instead?

> This is around a 90% reduction of what we pay today
> and would have substantial effects on the energy companies
> revenue, employment and GDP. Do you think that this is
> supported by the corporations and government?

This is a hard question to answer, because corporations exist to
make money, and governments need tax revenue.  If money can be made
producing electricity for such a price, I'm sure it would be done!

> I did not allude to that terrorists would contact you, I was
> suggested that large home production of Hydrogen would
> put the terrorists out of work. Have you made larger and usable
> amounts of Hydrogen at home, enough of maintaining one
> or two cars, and are you seriously suggesting this as a
> suitable occupation in millions of homes?

My remarks were a bit facetious, I admit!  Safety issues with
hydrogen must be addressed if this is to be done on a large scale.  Home
refueling appliances have been developed to deal with safety concerns in
the same manner that is currently done with natural gas home refueling
equipment.

On a large scale, however, I think that if hydrogen is going to get
done, it will NOT be done at home.  Reformers and hydride tanks
installed in gasoline service stations will ensure that energy profits
remain firmly in the hands of the big energy companies.

To answer your question directly, I have never made a sufficient
quantity of hydrogen to run a vehicle--although I think that doing so
would be well within my capability if I had the resources at my
disposal.

> US is now spending enormous amounts of money on
> "Homeland security", securing oil deliveries and fighting
> perceived and real threats of terrorist attacks. Have you thought
> about the tens of thousand of lives that could be saved yearly by
> serious investments this money in,
> - Clean air
> - Road safety
> - Better nutrition habits
> - Crime prevention

Absolutely!  Part of the problem, however, is that my government
doesn't actually HAVE any of the money it wants for Iraq and
Afghanistan.  Deficit spending will come back to haunt us.  .  .

> Under the current administration the US society developed a
> very serious and violent "them against us" attitude and it is
> no limits in the damages that this can cause. I have large
> difficulties in finding a positive development in the new
> neo-conservative world.

Sadly, the political party to which I belong has been hijacked by
extremists.  We're witnessing the fruit of this in completely
irresponsible fiscal policy, increased militarization and the strong
surge of anti-American sentiment all over the world.  What's worse, is
that my countrymen seem completely oblivious to the trend--and many of
them simply don't care what the rest of the world thinks!

> If you seriously look at energy issues, can you find any real
> and immediate progress in the US energy plan?

That depends upon point of view.  Chevron / Texaco, Esso, Shell and
the rest of the oil companies are grinning with glee!  There was a
feature on NPR the other day concerning gas and oil exploration on
federal lands in Montana.

http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1436104

It seems the current administration is determined to "solve the
energy problem" by drilling.  You and I are both aware of the r / p
problem with natural gas in North America.  Anything concerning energy
that comes out of the current administration seems more short sighted
than the policies implemented by any previous presidential
administration I can remember.

The "hydrogen economy" idea has been kidnapped by this
administration.  If America was serious about solar hydrogen, we would
have been investing in the infrastructure to develop it decades ago, and
we'd be well on our way by now.  It would have been cheaper to
manufacture and install point focus stirling and p.v. gen sets on
federal land in order to promote energy independence than it was to
invade Iraq.  This would have created jobs in the United States,
increased wealth and enabled our foreign policy to be less driven by the
insatiable need to expropriate everyone else's oil and gas resources.

Nobody seems willing to take the real "solar hydrogen" advocates
very seriously.  Mr. Bush's plan for hydrogen is nothing more than a way
of undercutting progress for increased efficiency while helping his
friends in t

Re: [biofuel] WVO burners...

[Tony Clark]

Keith,
It is good to see someone else using the glycerol/sawdust 1 litre fire logs
I told you about some time ago.
How moist are you making the mix?  I have tried a full range of mixes, but
they all work well although the wetter ones tend to "weep" thru the carton,
making storage a problem.  The waxy coating also gets on my hands along with
the coloured inks used to print the cartons. (these were filled during our
last summer).

regards,
Tony Clark

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 05:47:15 +0900
   From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: WVO burners...

Hi Mike

>Thanks Keith,
>
>I must say I am honored to hear from you, as I have always been a silent
>admirer of your work.
SNIP
 We also have a more or less endless
supply of offcut wood, and shavings which we mix with biodiesel
by-product and cram it into 1-litre milk cartons. They burn really
hot - three of them will heat an 80-litre bathtub to 60 deg C-plus in
40 minutes. They'd work well in those double-walled water heaters. So
would the wood, and so would a Turk burner I think.
SNIP
Best wishes

Keith




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[biofuel] ot: negative external concerns

[murdoch]

revisiting a couple of my less-respected concerns.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=585&ncid=585&e=1&u=/nm/20030920/sc_nm/environment_energy_moon_dc

We don't know what this might eventually do to the Earth and Moon
orbits and distances.

Amory Lovins did recently have a comment as to H2 depletion:

http://www.emagazine.com/september-october_2003/0903advdis.html

>WATER IN THE HYDROGEN ECONOMY
>
>In Eâs May/June 2003 Advice and Dissent, Jim Bell of San Diego suggested a 
>ãfatal flawä in the proposed hydrogen economy: a reduction in the planetâs 
>water inventory as molecular hydrogen is lost to outer space. But this does 
>not seem a realistic concern.
>
>Molecular hydrogen is reactive enough that all but about 0.04 percent of its 
>current additions to the atmosphere (a million tons a year, nearly all from 
>human activities) recombines chemically within the atmosphere, rather than 
>escaping to outer space. Also, as is the case in todayâs large hydrogen 
>industry, hydrogen leaks will be kept very small for economic and safety 
>reasons. And switching to an all-hydrogen economy would probably release about 
>as much molecular hydrogen as is now released by fossil-fuel combustion. 
>Further, the water drizzled regularly into the upper atmosphere by small 
>comets would exceed by at least hundreds of times any plausible water loss 
>from even a very large and leaky hydrogen economy.
>
>Amory B. Lovins, CEO
>Rocky Mountain Institute, Snowmass, CO

The comments by Lovins were a response to Jim Bell's comment under "Is
Hydrogen Risky Business".  Note that my main concern when I heard
Bell's comments a couple of years ago on radio (he is local to me, so
I think it must have been he) was that net H2 depletion, if it
occurred in amounts significant enough, would change the net mass of
the earth and possibly affect Orbit and such.  Bell doesn't mention
this specific concern:

http://www.emagazine.com/may-june_2003/0503advdis.html


>IS HYDROGEN RISKY BUSINESS?
>
>Using hydrogen gas to store intermittent renewable energy supplies sounds so 
>wonderful, but the plans may be fatally flawed. This scenario may result in 
>the loss of hydrogen to space through leaky pipes and storage containers and 
>through incomplete combustion. Iâve talked with several experts, and they tell 
>me that hydrogen gas will float out into space if released into the atmosphere 
>because the Earthâs gravity is not strong enough to hold it. If this hydrogen 
>is derived from water, its loss means a reduction of planetary water.
>
>Also, will the oxygen separated in the hydrogen economy increase the 
>percentage of that gas in our atmosphere? If so, will fires be easier to start 
>and harder to put out, will metals rust faster and will the oxidation of the 
>organic materials in soil speed up?
>
>There are many other ways to store intermittent renewable energy, so letâs not 
>let our legitimate quest to free ourselves from fossil fuels and nuclear power 
>override our due diligence in charting an energy future that is truly life 
>sustaining.
>
>Jim Bell, San Diego, CA
>
>Editorâs Note: Although Bellâs theory sounds plausible, basic science 
>discounts it, says David J. Friedman, a senior analyst with the Union of 
>Concerned Scientists Clean Vehicles Program. ãThe reason you donât find 
>hydrogen in the atmosphere is that it doesnât like hanging out alone,ä he 
>says. ãIt tries to combine, reacting with oxygen to form water vapor, for 
>instance. Hydrogen is highly reactive, so it will turn into something else 
>long before it presents any problems. Fleets of hydrogen-powered cars wonât 
>affect our water supply.ä
>

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Re: [biofuel] Alternative home heat: Water heating

[Hakan Falk]

Keith,

Again, if we look at old farm houses, the compost or manure was
used for space heating and this is very logical. It is a constant
source of heat and works well when the heat is needed. The need
for energy storage is minimized. So use this features for space
heating.

For hot water, a common method was deposits that was built
into the chimney construction, originally filled and emptied manually.
Since hot water supply is both the feature used and the storage for
itself, it is better to supply it from intermittent energy sources as solar
or cooking activities.

The most effective would be a construction like a masonry stove,
with the hot water deposit in it. Like the old traditional farm buildings.
The surfaces of the stove will provide for additional space heating.
We have a very interesting investigation of an old Swedish log
house with masonry stove and corresponding simulations that
verifies how it works with storage and energy flows. Some day I
will translate and publish it.

If you can build a sort of masonry construction in your house, it
will also work well with the lack of insulation. It is mainly radiant
heating. They knew what they were doing before the fossil fuel age.

If you use wood gasifier stove, you could burn the coal in a masonry
stove with hot water deposit. You could also charge the hot water
deposit from solar panel.

Interesting exercises in sustainable building, whish I could do it.

Hakan


At 12:58 PM 9/21/2003, you wrote:
>Hi Caroline
>
>
>At any rate we'll use it to heat water, and use the hot water for
>whatever. I have used the heat of a compost pile before, but not
>systematically. But it works. I always make compost, wherever I am,
>and for years I wondered why nobody used the heat, but I wasn't in a
>situation where I needed it or would have been able to use it. Then a
>few years ago I found that some people at least were using compost
>heat, at last. One system coils plastic hosepipe into the pile as
>it's built up and uses convection to move the hot water. A bit
>primitive, but that'll work. We'll do something similar. At least one
>of the two piles is always above 60 deg C (up to 75 deg C). The
>weather doesn't make any difference, it can be well below freezing
>but they'll still get hot. Yes, I know, each time I say this someone
>objects: "Not where I live, it's much too cold here, it just
>freezes." Sorry, but that's tantamount to saying: "I don't know how
>to make compost." Then they might propose getting it to work by
>providing an external heat source to heat it up artificially. Nope,
>that's not how compost works. There's a photograph in the Rodale
>Encyclopedia of Organic Gardening of someone making compost in the
>snow. Been there, done that.



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Re: [biofuel] Alternative home heat: Compost heating

[Hakan Falk]

Keith,

Using compost or rather animal manure for space heating is
a very old method. If you study old traditional farm buildings in
colder climates, you will most of the time find ways of using
the heat generated. The simple and most used way is to stack
the manure against walls that directly transported the heat to
the living space.

Cheap plastic hoses are very sufficient in transporting heat from
a compost to a living space. They have resistance for temperatures
below 60 degree Celsius and will work well. You can use the same
pipes under a floor, to create a large radiant surface and with the
house floor above the compost you will not need pumps etc.

In your case, with poor insulation, large radiant surfaces is the
best and most efficient way to achieve comfort at low air
temperatures.

An other question is dimensioning and if the composts are large
enough to provide the heat in the space size. You will anyway
get a base portion of useful energy for nearly nothing.

Hakan


At 12:58 PM 9/21/2003, you wrote:
>Hi Caroline
>
>
> >Then there's a
> >constant 60+ deg C heat supply from two one-cubic-metre compost piles
> >(in series),
> >
> >So how exactly are you "harvesting" this heat to heat a home?
>
>We're not, yet - as I said, it's one of a number of heat sources
>we'll be harnessing this winter. It won't be enough to heat a home.
>Especially not this home. Which isn't exactly a "home", it's a sort
>of barn/shed/workshop/studio/lecture room/office with some living
>space in between, and it's quite big, and extremely
>energy-inefficient (it's a 100-year-old traditional farmhouse that's
>been more or less neglected for 30 years) - not too bad in summer,
>really bad in winter. The compost heat will help, even though it's
>not nearly enough. As I said there are a lot of bits in the puzzle
>and we'll figure out how to fit them together as we go along. It
>might be more effective to use some or all of the compost heat to
>heat the biogas digester, for instance.
>
>At any rate we'll use it to heat water, and use the hot water for
>whatever. I have used the heat of a compost pile before, but not
>systematically. But it works. I always make compost, wherever I am,
>and for years I wondered why nobody used the heat, but I wasn't in a
>situation where I needed it or would have been able to use it. Then a
>few years ago I found that some people at least were using compost
>heat, at last. One system coils plastic hosepipe into the pile as
>it's built up and uses convection to move the hot water. A bit
>primitive, but that'll work. We'll do something similar. At least one
>of the two piles is always above 60 deg C (up to 75 deg C). The
>weather doesn't make any difference, it can be well below freezing
>but they'll still get hot. Yes, I know, each time I say this someone
>objects: "Not where I live, it's much too cold here, it just
>freezes." Sorry, but that's tantamount to saying: "I don't know how
>to make compost." Then they might propose getting it to work by
>providing an external heat source to heat it up artificially. Nope,
>that's not how compost works. There's a photograph in the Rodale
>Encyclopedia of Organic Gardening of someone making compost in the
>snow. Been there, done that.
>
>How much heat does a composter produce? In other words, how much can
>you harvest before you kill it? I'm not even sure that's a real
>question - it is a physical process, oxidation of carbon, a slow
>fire, but it's biologically driven: given the moisture and the air
>supply the microbugs will go on doing it until the C:N ratio
>stabilises (from about 30:1 to maybe 10:1 or something). But if you
>take too much heat out the temperature could fall below the
>thermophilic level and go mesophilic, no use for thermophilic bugs.
>This is something we need to learn more about, and that's our real
>purpose here now, more than just to heat our house. This is the final
>trial-run for our journey, where we figure out the detail of the
>technology we'll be using as much as possible, what we don't already
>know of it. There's much more to it than just alternative energy.
>We're doing well, we've covered a lot of ground already and learnt a
>lot, but there's still much more to do.
>
>Anyway, I'll probably post further info about all this as it unfolds.





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Re: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Economy

[Sid4Salmon]

In a message dated 9/21/2003 1:53:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> - Original Message -
> From: "Bruce Crowder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 

Subject:  Hydrogen.

Hi Bruce:

http://www.fuelcellscanada.ca/french/Press%20releases/stuartenergynews8.html";>http://www.fuelcellscanada.ca/french/Press%20releases/stuartenergynews8.html


What does your local ordinance say about chemical manufacturing in your
area?  Stuart Energy builds a solar energy electrolysis unit.  A good contact
for you.

Sid.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Re: [biofuel] Alternative home heat

[Keith Addison]

Hi Caroline

>double-walled SS things of various types, with a
>firebox inside
>What was that originally? I want one. ;)

Water heaters, for hot water on demand, not for a constant supply:

"We also have some defunct but useable water heater tanks, 
double-walled SS things of various types, with a firebox inside and 
also kero burners which sort of airblast a spray of burning kero out 
of a nozzle. I don't think much of those burners, but they're widely 
used here."

We have two of these tanks, but there are plenty of them to be had at 
the recycle yards and so on. There are a few different types, in two 
main categories I think - either they have a firebox or they don't, 
and rely on a kerosene burner instead. The ones with fireboxes 
usually also have provision for a kero burner, and these are what we 
have, one a vertical cylinder about 3ft tall and 15" wide, the other 
a horizontal cylinder about 2ft long and 18" wide. The space between 
the double walls is about 2", with water inlets and outlets. The 
burner is a separate unit which bolts on. The burner uses a small 
pump to force kero under pressure through a spray nozzle and there's 
a blower to add air to the spray. An 12-inch-long flame jets out the 
end of a two-inch pipe sticking out of the front of the thing. The 
pipe fits into the water heating tanks, pointed at the inside of the 
double wall. Uses lots of kero and makes a lot of noise. A wood fire 
works better, but I guess it's less "convenient", or something. We 
won't be using a kero burner. It does work with biodiesel, sort of, 
though the nozzle needs adjustment to work well, but we won't use it 
anyway, don't like it, not efficient, inelegant.

>Then there's a
>constant 60+ deg C heat supply from two one-cubic-metre compost piles
>(in series),
>
>So how exactly are you "harvesting" this heat to heat a home?

We're not, yet - as I said, it's one of a number of heat sources 
we'll be harnessing this winter. It won't be enough to heat a home. 
Especially not this home. Which isn't exactly a "home", it's a sort 
of barn/shed/workshop/studio/lecture room/office with some living 
space in between, and it's quite big, and extremely 
energy-inefficient (it's a 100-year-old traditional farmhouse that's 
been more or less neglected for 30 years) - not too bad in summer, 
really bad in winter. The compost heat will help, even though it's 
not nearly enough. As I said there are a lot of bits in the puzzle 
and we'll figure out how to fit them together as we go along. It 
might be more effective to use some or all of the compost heat to 
heat the biogas digester, for instance.

At any rate we'll use it to heat water, and use the hot water for 
whatever. I have used the heat of a compost pile before, but not 
systematically. But it works. I always make compost, wherever I am, 
and for years I wondered why nobody used the heat, but I wasn't in a 
situation where I needed it or would have been able to use it. Then a 
few years ago I found that some people at least were using compost 
heat, at last. One system coils plastic hosepipe into the pile as 
it's built up and uses convection to move the hot water. A bit 
primitive, but that'll work. We'll do something similar. At least one 
of the two piles is always above 60 deg C (up to 75 deg C). The 
weather doesn't make any difference, it can be well below freezing 
but they'll still get hot. Yes, I know, each time I say this someone 
objects: "Not where I live, it's much too cold here, it just 
freezes." Sorry, but that's tantamount to saying: "I don't know how 
to make compost." Then they might propose getting it to work by 
providing an external heat source to heat it up artificially. Nope, 
that's not how compost works. There's a photograph in the Rodale 
Encyclopedia of Organic Gardening of someone making compost in the 
snow. Been there, done that.

How much heat does a composter produce? In other words, how much can 
you harvest before you kill it? I'm not even sure that's a real 
question - it is a physical process, oxidation of carbon, a slow 
fire, but it's biologically driven: given the moisture and the air 
supply the microbugs will go on doing it until the C:N ratio 
stabilises (from about 30:1 to maybe 10:1 or something). But if you 
take too much heat out the temperature could fall below the 
thermophilic level and go mesophilic, no use for thermophilic bugs. 
This is something we need to learn more about, and that's our real 
purpose here now, more than just to heat our house. This is the final 
trial-run for our journey, where we figure out the detail of the 
technology we'll be using as much as possible, what we don't already 
know of it. There's much more to it than just alternative energy. 
We're doing well, we've covered a lot of ground already and learnt a 
lot, but there's still much more to do.

Anyway, I'll probably post further info about all this as it unfolds.

>I have an endless supply of wood chips I am trying to figure out 

Re: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Economy

[Keith Addison]

>Hi all,
>I would like to try some experiments on hydrogen.
>First : What is the best way to make it out of water ? What electrodes
>should I use, so they don't go in solution ?
>What electrolite should I use ?
>Is there a link where I can find some information for beginners on this item
>?
>
>By the way : I have been driving over 100.000 km on BD now, without any
>problems at all. Just great!
>
>Met vriendelijke groeten,
>Pieter Koole
>Netherlands

Dag Pieter

"Caveman Chemistry" previously had a nice description and slide show 
of producing Chlorine, Hydrogen, and Lye from table salt, using PET 
bottles, flashlight batteries, glue and stuff. "Wire electrodes would 
be corroded by the lye and chlorine. We could use gold or platinum 
wire, but the poor man's inert electrode is carbon. The easiest place 
to get carbon electrodes is from a flashlight battery. It is 
imperative that you use ordinary flashlight batteries, not alkaline 
batteries, since alkaline batteries put the zinc in the center and 
the carbon on the outside. Ordinary flashlight batteries have a 
carbon rod down the middle and a zinc can on the outside."

Now that site has changed, and I can't find this section there anymore.
http://cavemanchemistry.com/cavebook/index.html
Caveman Chemistry

Only these:
http://www.cavemanchemistry.com/cavebook/chchloralkali2.html

http://www.cavemanchemistry.com/cavebook/chchloralkali.html

Here's the previous text though, below, without the slide show, hope 
it makes sense.

regards

Keith



Here are the supplies we need: A 2-liter soft drink bottle, 2 smaller 
soft drink bottles (about 500 mL each), 2 ordinary size D flashlight 
batteries, and some waterproof glue which will stick to PET plastic.

Wire electrodes would be corroded by the lye and chlorine. We could 
use gold or platinum wire, but the poor man's inert electrode is 
carbon. The easiest place to get carbon electrodes is from a 
flashlight battery. It is imperative that you use ordinary flashlight 
batteries, not alkaline batteries, since alkaline batteries put the 
zinc in the center and the carbon on the outside. Ordinary flashlight 
batteries have a carbon rod down the middle and a zinc can on the 
outside.

You should wear glasses and gloves for this part. Peel away the paper 
wrapper to expose the zinc can underneath.

Use pliers to peel away the zinc can, exposing the electrolyte paste 
within. Loosen up this paste until the carbon rod is free and then 
remove the carbon rod with pliers.

The electrolyte paste is not all that harmful, but it can be messy. 
Do not eat this paste, rub it all over your body, feed it to stray 
animals, rub it in your eyes, or any of the 1,268 other stupid things 
that could be done with it. Just throw it in the trash and wash your 
hands after handling it.

Just to cover all the bases, the same is not true for alkaline 
batteries. Their electrolyte paste is alkaline and it is caustic. You 
should definitely wash your hands soon after contact with this paste. 
But you won't get that contact in this project, since alkaline cells 
don't have carbon rods.

You need two carbon rods. Here they are, inert and electrically conductive.

You will cut the top off the 2 liter bottle and the bottoms off the 
two smaller bottles. The size of the smaller bottles doesn't matter 
as long as they fit inside the 2 liter bottle.

Take a pocket knife and cut two holes in the bottom of the 2 liter 
bottle. The holes should be just big enough to insert the carbon 
rods. The rods are about as big in diameter as a pencil, so if you 
start with a small hole, you can use a pencil to open up a smooth, 
round hole of the right size. Then insert the carbon rods, making a 
tight fit with the bottle.

You now need some kind of glue to seal the rods in place. I have used 
Plumbers Goop, which makes an excellent seal. Here I am using an 
epoxy that is specifically for plastic. The important consideration 
is that the glue must make a good waterproof seal with the PET 
plastic from which the bottle is made.

Once the carbon rods are sealed, push the two small plastic bottles 
into the large one. One carbon rod should protrude into each of the 
two small bottles. Take the caps off the small bottles and fill the 
large bottle to the brim with saturated salt water. Just keep adding 
salt until no more will dissolve. Screw the caps onto the small 
bottles and then pour water out of the large one until it is about 
half full. Amazingly, the small bottles will stay full of water.

I am powering the cell with 4 D cells in series (6 Volts total). The 
negative end goes to one carbon rod (the cathode) and the positive 
end goes to the other carbon rod (the anode). Bubbles will start to 
collect on the carbon rods and soon gas will collect at the top of 
each bottle. Hydrogen will be produced at the cathode and chlorine 
will be produced at the anode. The water will start out pH neutral 
but will become more and more alkaline as sodium hydroxide is 

Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Economy

[Hakan Falk]

Robert,

You are right, it is potential in hydrogen, as it is in many things.
Fusion and other technologies are very interesting.

I think that if you get mass produced PV with 30% efficiency
and at 1 cent/kWh, it will be a fantastic breakthrough and the
largest immediate benefit would be in further development of
existing EV and especially NEV technologies, they are "ready
for use". This is around a 90% reduction of what we pay today
and would have substantial effects on the energy companies
revenue, employment and GDP. Do you think that this is
supported by the corporations and government?

I did not allude to that terrorists would contact you, I was
suggested that large home production of Hydrogen would
put the terrorists out of work. Have you made larger and usable
amounts of Hydrogen at home, enough of maintaining one
or two cars, and are you seriously suggesting this as a
suitable occupation in millions of homes?

US is now spending enormous amounts of money on
"Homeland security", securing oil deliveries and fighting
perceived and real threats of terrorist attacks. Have you thought
about the tens of thousand of lives that could be saved yearly by
serious investments this money in,
- Clean air
- Road safety
- Better nutrition habits
- Crime prevention
Under the current administration the US society developed a
very serious and violent "them against us" attitude and it is
no limits in the damages that this can cause. I have large
difficulties in finding a positive development in the new
neo-conservative world.

If you seriously look at energy issues, can you find any real
and immediate progress in the US energy plan?

Hakan



At 02:31 AM 9/21/2003, you wrote:


>Hakan Falk wrote:
>
> >
> > I would agree with you, if it was higher R/P values for natural gas.
> > With the
> > current 7 years for US, the demands of independence of import becomes
> > an
> > even a more impossible dream. I do not have to describe the current US
> >
> > situation on NG again. Hydrogen from NG achieve nothing and the best
> > bet is coal/nuclear at the end. It is already feverish activities in
> > US to
> > build
> > a lot more nuclear power stations.
>
> No serious advocate of a hydrogen economy suggests that using a
>single source of hydrogen production should be pursued.  The people who
>are pushing hard for hydrogen would like to see a diversity of
>resources, ranging from reforming natural gas and coal, to
>methanogenesis of garbage, pyrolysis of biomass, algal production AND
>electrolysis in situations that favor it, whether this is nuclear, wind
>or any of the options explained below.
>
> Using mass produced point focus solar collectors, whether stirling
>or photovoltaic, WILL bring the price of electricity down low enough to
>make hydrogen viable as an energy carrier.  Some people believe that
>concentrated photovoltaics will eventually bring the price of
>electricity down to less than 1 cent per kilowatt hour, and IF this can
>be attained, a kilogram of hydrogen would cost less than what a current
>gallon of gasoline is running in the United States--even if it the
>hydrogen was taxed at the same level that gasoline is taxed.
>
> 
>http://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htm
>
> http://www.industrialsolartech.com/rmt.html
>
> http://www.solarsystems.com.au/
>
>
>
> > Hydrogen production at home? That will make Osama bin Laden happy.
>
> I've made hydrogen at home.  No terrorist has ever approached me
>about this!
>
>robert luis rabello
>"The Edge of Justice"
>Adventure for Your Mind
>http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782



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[biofuel] Re: phosphoric acid in Foolproof method

[girl_mark_fire]

I think that part of the acid advice comes from Terry UK's old, old 
message that's up at your site- 'add a gloop' I think it says.  It was 
the best info there was at the time (a lot better than the 
bound-for-emulsion suggestions in Tickell's book which tell you to 
basically spray water at the stuff, I've been there done that and boy 
did it confuse me when it went to emulsion).
 Terry's article is where I first saw bubblewashing instructions and 
though Aleks gives a different way of doing it, the 'just add a gloop' 
of acid bit sticks in one's mind I think. I thought that 'just keep 
adding acid' advice from Terry also really threw me off when I was 
first starting out with washing, as it didn't really explain emulsion 
other than to suggest fixing it with acid (with little accounting for 
different strengths of acid, etc...) Which is primarily why I wrote 
that article you've got up there. Perhaps Terry's article could use a 
link to your notes on acid in case people don' t find it by 
themselves?

by the way when you use acids to break emulsion, how much acid do 
people use, compared to the amount needed to get the water pH to go 
neutral? It seems to me that it takes a while to see visible results 
by the 'just add some till emulsion clears' method, so people probably 
overdo the acid waiting to see results. Just a hunch.  Maybe a more 
scientific approach to that particular problem is in order as well? 

(I am a very big fan of hot water washing now and dont ' get emulsion 
at all no matter how vigerous the wash is, in fact I've been 
experimenting with all the 'emulsifying' wash methods- what Todd calls 
"Frog in a Blender'.  I'ts still quite hot outside right now so it 
doesn't cost me much in energy to heat. In winter it'll be a different 
story)
 



. So I still don't recommend
> >acidulating as a matter of course, unless you know what you're 
doing.
> >It can be done right if you do a titration for soap/catalyst first 
to
> >find out how much acid to use (that HCL/ bromophenol blue indicator
> >titration that Juan described a week or so ago).
> 
> Why do a titration? Adding it slowly while monitoring the pH should 
do.
> 
>



I'd like to test this out against that soap test, see if it turns out 
the same. Someone's already done the research to figure out what the 
soap test titration tells you in exact numbers, so it's one of those 
rare things in biodiesel shadetree testing, a quantitative measure. 
It's what I was looking for a year ago with quest


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