Re: [biofuels-biz] Greenhouse gas 'plan B' gaining support
Heard it here first? Those of you familiar with Levi's Goat of Mendez have read it on his arms Solve Coagula Fred On Friday, Dec 12, 2003, at 06:49 US/Eastern, Keith Addison wrote: Contraction Convergence - you read it here first, folks, three years ago: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1539/ Subject: climate change, 10 Dec 2000 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/27393/ Subject: Contraction and Convergence, 23 Aug 2003 Check out Aubrey Meyer's Global Commons Institute (GCI): http://gci.org.uk/ For an introduction to the ideas behind Contraction and Convergence, see: http://www.gci.org.uk/contconv/cc.html Some info about the book, Contraction Convergence - The Global Solution to Climate Change: http://www.gci.org.uk/ccbook.html - http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns4467 New Scientist Greenhouse gas 'plan B' gaining support 19:00 10 December 03 The Kyoto protocol is dying a death of a thousand cuts. Last week, the US reiterated that it wants nothing to do with the sole international agreement designed to save the world from runaway global warming. The European Union, Kyoto's main promoter, revealed that most of its members will not meet their treaty's obligations. And Russia once again seemed to be on the point of wrecking the protocol completely. These blows follow a history of bureaucratic squabbling and political posturing by the protocol's signatories, and many observers now fear that it has been damaged beyond repair. So does the world have a plan B for bringing the emissions of greenhouse gases under control? Contraction Convergence model The answer is yes, and it goes by the name contraction and convergence, or CC. The idea has been around for a decade, but lately it has been gaining ever more influential converts, such as the UK's Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution, the UN Environment Programme, the European Parliament and the German Advisory Council on Global Change, which last week released a report supporting the idea. A source within the German delegation in Milan said this week that his government was taking the idea very seriously indeed. Even observers outside the environmental establishment, such as the World Council of Churches, back the proposal. Simple and fair For the past two weeks, representatives from around the world have been in Milan, Italy, for COP9, the ninth annual meeting of signatories to the 1992 Framework Convention on Climate Change. Many of them now privately admit that CC is what we have been waiting for. While Kyoto has become a convoluted, arbitrary and short-term measure to mitigate climate change, CC could provide a simple, fair, long-term solution. And above all, it is based on science rather than politics. The contraction in CC is shorthand for reducing the total global output of greenhouse gases. At the Earth Summit in Rio in 1992, the world's governments agreed to act to prevent dangerous climatic change. The Kyoto treaty was their first fumbling attempt to meet that pledge, and if implemented would set emissions targets for industrialised nations for the period 2008 to 2012. But increasing numbers of delegates are viewing Kyoto as part of the problem, not part of the solution. Its labyrinthine rules allow nations to offset emissions with devices such as carbon-sink projects, and are so complex they are virtually unenforceable. Even if Kyoto becomes international law, it cannot be the blueprint for future deals beyond 2012. A new start is needed. These delegates argue that it is time to get back to first principles to find a formula to fight the dangerous climate change mentioned in the Rio treaty. And there is an emerging consensus that dangerous means any warming in excess of 2 ¡C above pre-industrial levels; so far temperatures have risen by 0.6 ¡C. Drastic cuts To keep below the 2 ¡C ceiling will mean keeping global atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide, the most important greenhouse gas, below about 450 parts per million. But because CO2 and other greenhouse gases linger in the atmosphere for a century or more, staying below that ceiling will mean drastic cuts in emissions over the next 50 years. The Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution has decided that a 60 per cent cut in global emissions by 2050 is needed, which the British government has adopted as its national target. But if the world is to manage such a transformation, then hard choices will have to be made. And that is where the convergence part of CC comes in. Industrialised nations have so far done most of the polluting. The US emits 25 times as much CO2 per head as India, for example, but if pollution is to be rationed, that cannot carry on. So under the CC proposals, national emissions will converge year by year towards some agreed target based upon each country's population (see graph). In effect, by a target
Re: [biofuels-biz] Fwd: RE: [solar-ac] Solar Geothermal
Solar electric is becoming a little more efficient. Sharp has a 185 watt panels that has cells w/ an efficiency of 17.48% (the whole module is 14.23% though) (yeah, I'm a solar electric installer). Do any of you consider geothermal for heating and cooling??? Relies on the constant temperature(about 55 degreesF in NJ) that exists just a few feet in the ground. In terms of energy input, the systems advertise that they are 300% efficient. --- Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David, The last 20 years I bought an AC unit per year on average here in Spain, always reversible to heat pump. I am a little bit lazy and found a very good dimensioning method. Instead of calculating, I have used the known margin of error in existing methods. I ask the sales person what he recommends. He will do some sort of calculation and look in tables, then he would look at me with the expert look and suggest for example 3,000 watt (never smaller), then I will look equally seriously and buy the 1,000 Watt. He will always say that in that case he cannot guarantee that it will work and I will always reply that it doesn't matter. In the 20 cases I have never had a capacity problem. I had some problems with functionality, but that is expected with AC units who have an average life span of 8 years (rotary compressors). Hakan At 20:15 12/12/2003, you wrote: Hi Hakan, I'm not familiar with any companies succeeding in this field. (except special projects companies working on gov't subsidized systems) I would like to see solar ac find some economically feasible markets. Will take some good engineering and creative thinking (to find the right market) David B. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12ck43qab/M=267637.4116730.5333196.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705083307:HM/EXP=1071360354/A=1853618/R=0/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60178338partid=4116730 click here [] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives of solar-ac messages are at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/solar-ac/messageshttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/solar-ac/messages Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: Help for new bio fuel plant?
Hello! For small-scale information, www.journeytoforever.org has the best info. For commercial production, please have a look at the 'technical papers' and other information at www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel for information from Iowa State University. If I understand correctly, there is no plant in the United States which uses animal tallow exclusively (other than whatever animal fats are in waste edible oils from restaurants). The Iowa State University research focuses partly on waste animal fats as a feedstock. I would like to hear if this is done in Europe. mark --- In biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com, Bozidar Hojan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I got curious about bio-fuels,especially bio-diesel as we began to discuss about it on a state level here at us. So I would ask for help from someone experienced in bio-fuels, who would be interested in helping me to start up a new energy production facility.I am interested in bio-diesel, could start with cattle tallow,used edible oil and then organize oil rapeseed, as raw materials. For start I would like equipment for smaller quantities,to collect experience and later on that could be a bigger plant with up to 5.000 t/yearly. Thanks for help with equipment for start,for help with your experience with producing bio-diesel,ideas how to start with experimental equipment complet/plant. Regards from Zagreb,Croatia,Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Fwd: RE: [solar-ac] Solar Geothermal
Brian, PV is getting more efficient and the 8-10% efficiency cheaper, so let us hope that we get the 60% price reduction on PV that is necessary for it to really take off. It should of course be combined wit easy no frill grid connections. It will make a lot of difference, but maybe not that much on solar AC with PV cells, that must be a low priority and thermal solar will be interesting. Did you read this that I posted a short while ago, Plug-in HVAC Cogeneration. http://energy.saving.nu/plugin/hvacpump.shtmlhttp://energy.saving.nu/plugin/hvacpump.shtml I also did this, which has to be revised and improved. It was written in a haste and need to be more descriptive, Moving energy/temperatures for HVAC. http://energysavingnow.com/hvac/energymove.shtmlhttp://energysavingnow.com/hvac/energymove.shtml Did not have too much feedback on it, other than the fair comment, of that the latter was unclear and not good. Geothermal, as you define it, is heat pump technology and the geothermal is only one part of this and because that the constant earth temperature is often at this optimum temperatures for heat pumps. It is a question of cost effective and balance. In an area like Florida or most of Spain, the air temperatures are most of the time in that range and to use the earth temperatures might not be cost efficient. In Sweden, you have to use geothermal for heat pumps, otherwise the heat pumps are not effective a large part of the year. As a solar installer, I like your comments on this, Plug-in Solar power. http://energy.saving.nu/plugin/pluginsolar.shtml and this, The Grid. http://energy.saving.nu/thegrid/ Sorry if I take the opportunity, but it is always interesting with feedback that is other than my natural deficiencies in English, even if they are very valuable also. Hakan At 03:12 13/12/2003, you wrote: Solar electric is becoming a little more efficient. Sharp has a 185 watt panels that has cells w/ an efficiency of 17.48% (the whole module is 14.23% though) (yeah, I'm a solar electric installer). Do any of you consider geothermal for heating and cooling??? Relies on the constant temperature(about 55 degreesF in NJ) that exists just a few feet in the ground. In terms of energy input, the systems advertise that they are 300% efficient. --- Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David, The last 20 years I bought an AC unit per year on average here in Spain, always reversible to heat pump. I am a little bit lazy and found a very good dimensioning method. Instead of calculating, I have used the known margin of error in existing methods. I ask the sales person what he recommends. He will do some sort of calculation and look in tables, then he would look at me with the expert look and suggest for example 3,000 watt (never smaller), then I will look equally seriously and buy the 1,000 Watt. He will always say that in that case he cannot guarantee that it will work and I will always reply that it doesn't matter. In the 20 cases I have never had a capacity problem. I had some problems with functionality, but that is expected with AC units who have an average life span of 8 years (rotary compressors). Hakan At 20:15 12/12/2003, you wrote: Hi Hakan, I'm not familiar with any companies succeeding in this field. (except special projects companies working on gov't subsidized systems) I would like to see solar ac find some economically feasible markets. Will take some good engineering and creative thinking (to find the right market) David B. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12ck43qab/M=267637.4116730.5333196.1261774/D=eg roupweb/S=1705083307:HM/EXP=1071360354/A=1853618/R=0/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60178338partid=4116730http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12ck43qab/M=267637.4116730.5333196.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705083307:HM/EXP=1071360354/A=1853618/R=0/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60178338partid=4116730 click here [] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives of solar-ac messages are at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/solar-ac/messageshttp://groups.yahoo.com /group/solar-ac/messageshttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/solar-ac/messages Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Y ahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Help for new bio fuel plant?
Thanks for help! I go on,have more informations every day! Regards Theodor(Bozidar) girl_mark_fire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello! For small-scale information, www.journeytoforever.org has the best info. For commercial production, please have a look at the 'technical papers' and other information at www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel for information from Iowa State University. If I understand correctly, there is no plant in the United States which uses animal tallow exclusively (other than whatever animal fats are in waste edible oils from restaurants). The Iowa State University research focuses partly on waste animal fats as a feedstock. I would like to hear if this is done in Europe. mark --- In biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com, Bozidar Hojan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I got curious about bio-fuels,especially bio-diesel as we began to discuss about it on a state level here at us. So I would ask for help from someone experienced in bio-fuels, who would be interested in helping me to start up a new energy production facility.I am interested in bio-diesel, could start with cattle tallow,used edible oil and then organize oil rapeseed, as raw materials. For start I would like equipment for smaller quantities,to collect experience and later on that could be a bigger plant with up to 5.000 t/yearly. Thanks for help with equipment for start,for help with your experience with producing bio-diesel,ideas how to start with experimental equipment complet/plant. Regards from Zagreb,Croatia,Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] bad news about EPA registration Re: Commercial production
Hi Keith and others, I've got more info about the EPA registration issue and it's not good. I sent the info that Keith compiled ( http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/27488/ ) to Jon Van Gerpen of Iowa State University who then contacted the EPA about the discrepancy in their registration process (I'm not sure who exactly he spoke with). I didn't get full details yet from Dr Van Gerpen (especially the question of whom it was that he spoke with, but Ill try and find out next week) , but here's what he wrote to me: Quote: Regarding my email exchange with EPA. It was pretty much a bust. I explained to them my understanding of the registration process and then asked them for the rationale they use to categorize biodiesel as an atypical fuel. In the response I received, they confirmed that my understanding of the process was correct but ignored my request for the rationale. I can't fault them too much for not being responsive. We're all busy. However, I still think there is no sound technical basis for not including biodiesel as a non-baseline fuel. This would allow it to qualify for the small business exemptions. I think the most likely path to getting this would be to find a friendly senator who might be willing to push the EPA to loosen up. (end quote) We have been organising here this fall in Northern California to talk about forming a statewide B100 consumers' association, as a sort of partnership with the several small biodiesel distributors, 'small business users' (ie people like Thanksgiving Coffee who run a few vehicles on B100 but aren't considered a fleet in the traditional sense), and passenger car biodiesel consumers- underserved markets, and ones hard-hit by IWP's quality problems this fall. The first item on the agenda besides 'how to greet the industry when it comes here for it's winter convention' is 'how to do a legal challenge to the EPA registration rules so we can have legal local production'. I agree with Dr Van Gerpen's suggestion about finding a politician to take it up, but we're still in the beginning stages of debating strategy on this in our area, and more importantly trying to raise awareness about this issue locally. More info coming shortly. . I think a legal challenge would have to hinge partly on a re-definition of 'small producer'. Currently the small business exemption for non-baseline fuel is for operators making less than 50 million dollars a year. That would leave the NBB high and dry, as no one is making that much from biodiesel production in the US. My personal proposal for redefining 'small producer' is someone making a half million gallons a year or less. This is considered pilot plant scale for the industry- but it's a reasonable scale for local sourcing and production. I think it'd be less threatening to the industry than demanding the current non-baseline registration rules, which would exempt everyone in the industry big and small from the Tier 1/Tier 2 testing, if followed to the letter. Also another heads-up: someone whom I know in the NBB contacted me about their winter convention- they're having a 'small producer panel' discussion in the convention. They're trying to get Jim Caldwell to be one of the speakers,and didn't know yet who the others would be. My acquaintance in the NBB read the official statement about the panel to me- and it said something like 'while we recognise that small producers have a role to play in the development of the biodiesel market (which I read rather cynically!), but [I paraphrase here cause I can't remember the actual language] the issues of quality need to be addressed' or something like that. Now this was amusing to me to hear. We've had serious problems with bad quality substandard non-spec biodiesel coming out of NBB member Imperial Western Products' plant this summer and fall, with drivers having big repair bills as a result, but the NBB has no clue that this is happening and still believes that small producers would have quality control problems. I asked my acquaintance in the NBB if he had any idea about this issue and of course no one had told them. As usual the NBB is somewhat out of touch on B100 issues. Amusingly, the next thing scheduled on the NBB convention agenda right after the small producer discussion is suposed to be a tour of the IWP plant. I realy think they all have no idea that this sort of thing has been happening. Remember it also happened with World Energy this spring, causing some consumers to question 'yellow grease'-sourced B100 after THEIR repair bills occurred. ALso remember that those who cught the problem were basically watchdog grassroots people- if no one was watching, or everyone was getting their B100 from a regular gas station, it would have taken a lot longer to figure out that there was a problem. By the way my reading of the above NBB statement is that the NBB lumps
Re: [biofuel] A Tale of Two Countries
Hi Alan Keith Addison wrote: http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17333 A Tale of Two Countries By David Morris, AlterNet December 8, 2003 This brings to mind an old saying about the difference between American and Japanese car companies. When a new standard is imposed American car companies will hire lawyers to figure out how to get around or tear down the new standard. Japanese car companies will hire engineers to figure out how to meet or exceed the standard. The Japanese manufacturers' statement that selling their first generation hybrids at a loss was an investment in the future was absolutely correct. The buyers of the first few years of hybrids were, effectively, beta testers, and the manufacturers were paying them for the research data by taking a loss on the cars. AP Do you remember this news item about suppliers and quality? Interesting comparison between US and Japanese automakers. Best Keith Study: Suppliers skimp on quality to meet automakers' cost-cutting demands July 25, 2001 BY ED GARSTEN ASSOCIATED PRESS DETROIT -- A little thinner coating on the trim, a few less stitches on seating -- just some examples of how automotive suppliers are skimping on quality in order to meet cost-cutting demands of U.S. automakers, a study found. HIGHLIGHTS OF THE STUDY Some of the highlights of a study performed by Birmingham, Mich.-based Planning Perspectives on how cost cutting has effected quality among 261 major suppliers to the automotive industry: QUALITY: 7 percent to 9 percent lowered quality to meet automakers' price cut demands; 20 percent improved quality; 75 percent maintained current quality standards. TECHNOLOGY REDUCTION: 20 percent withheld some new technology from automakers. SERVICE REDUCTION: 7 percent to 18 percent reduced services to automakers, such as consulting engineers. PRICE VS. QUALITY: General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and DaimlerChrysler AG place two to three time greater emphasis on price than quality when choosing suppliers, while Toyota and Honda balance price with quality. Suppliers who were pressed by automakers to lower their prices to the point where it was difficult to turn a profit either maintained or lowered the quality of their products, according to the 2001 North American Automotive Supplier Survey, performed by Birmingham, Mich.-based Planning Perspectives. The study looked at responses from 261 suppliers received between March and May. Only 20 percent of the suppliers said they were improving quality. Seventy-five percent said they're keeping quality as it is now, said John Henke, president of Planning Perspectives and the author of the study released this week. Faced with a slowing automotive market coming off the record sales pace of 2000, automakers have put price reduction edicts of from 3 percent to 8 percent or more on their suppliers. The challenge has been for suppliers to cut prices enough to hang onto their contracts while remaining profitable. The answer, according to the study, has been to cut corners. The study found the situations were consistent with suppliers regardless of their size. But Henke said occupant safety has not suffered. The goods are still at a very high quality, Henke said. They look for areas where you can reduce quality without jeopardizing safety. Henke said as other cost-cutting tactics, suppliers are cutting back support and services to the automakers, and withholding certain new technologies and extra testing. Both extra services and technology almost always have a relationship to the quality of the product, Henke said. They're meeting the specifications of the automakers but not moving forward on quality. Delphi Automotive Systems, the largest supplier in North America, took issue with the study and said its quality has steadily improved. Delphi is committed to providing our global customers with industry-leading technology and high quality and cost-effective products. We strive to achieve this through the Delphi manufacturing system which is our approach to lean manufacturing and by partnering with our customers to meet their objectives, Delphi said in a statement. The study concluded that suppliers must abandon the past practice of applying one business plan to all their customers and adapt the practice of developing individual plans appropriate to each automaker. General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and DaimlerChrysler AG place two to three times greater emphasis on price than quality when selecting suppliers, while Toyota and Honda, the quality leaders, virtually balance price with quality, the study said. Toyota and Honda provide the most help to suppliers to reduce internal cost and maintain quality, Henke said. In that way, he said, suppliers' profit margins are protected. Before Toyota grants a supplier contract it requires the company to jump an enormous number of hoops to decide if it's qualified, Henke said. If
Re: [biofuel] What's the true story on ethanol?
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 02:41:35 +0900, you wrote: Hi MM Although I am not buying that production of ethanol requires more energy than it produces, It could do - did you see this thread? Expert pans ethanol http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/30146/1/ Well, I liked your dissection of Patzek's research, as you point out the non-sustainability of the types of agriculture he's looking at, and the irrelevance of his work to sustainable methods for growing things and making fuels. Aside: I do want to say that awhile back you shot down my interest in completely-different non-natural production of biofuels and ethanol and what-not, from such schemes as PV-to-H2-to-C2H6O, or whatever, and I did not agree at all with this, but it didn't seem important to argue it at length at that time. I know what I think on the matter. If it can be done sustainably then I'm for taking a look at it, whether it fits with the way things were done in the past or not. This to me is relevant in the sense that, basically, ethanol is ethanol. It's a chemical. What is not the same is the derivation method and the analysis of the sustainability of those methods. http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/30217/1/ Brazil used subsidies very effectively. Hoagy posted some great links on ethanol in Brazil recently, interesting discussion, check previous posts. I'll have to look around for that. I think this is what Im getting at. 99% of ethanol debates in the US at the national news-journal level are framed in terms of ADM and others and big-farm subsidies. There is virtually no coverage of the idea that there are different ways to look at this. Really, no mainstream coverage at all, in any way, that I'm aware. So, I think what I'm fishing for is to have a better idea of what I'm for, here, and not just an idea of what I'm against. As to Brazil, in addition to what you've said in one of those links, I'll be wanting to look at the extent to which they use plant waste in the making of ethanol. This is just an under-emphasized aspect of biofuels, doubtless thoroughly covered by those here, but not so much in the NYT. MM Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Fwd: Re: [solar-ac] Markets
Thought that this could be interesting for the biofuel group also. Hakan Cornelius, I agree with you, but found something that is very interesting and that I would like to explain. The cardboard soaked with water is a version of a more than 2000 year old method to cool the air and even more important to dry it. It is a version of the rope curtains in the entrance door of the house, which often had a pipe from a stream of water keeping it wet with fresh new cold water. You still find this in many developing countries. To work, the water temperature must be lower than the air temperature, otherwise it could have the opposite effect. When the air passes the curtain, it will cool down and if it is very humid, it will also lose a lot of its water content, according to the laws of relative humidity (Molliere). After it has passed the curtain, it will again warm up and also according to the laws of humidity, it will have a lower relative humidity than it was before it entered the curtain. Very smart and a good example of that people was much smarter engineers in the past, than we educated engineers many times belive. Of course, if you do it wrong and the water is warmer than the air and or not renewed from a cold source, the effect is the opposite and then we prove how little the modern engineers really know or understand. Made in the right way, the curtain is actually a traditional version of the modern cooling tower in an AC system and very environment friendly. When you understand how it works, it is possible to tweak the efficiency a little bit or at least not make mistakes that worsen the situation. By the way, the old Arabian, Greek and Roman gardens, with its large number of fountains, worked the same way. They provided shadow and was drying the air. You only have to visit the gardens of Alhambra, Spain. in a hot August day and the effect is obvious. However, the higher efficiency of a solar heated cooling system would make a difference in the situations that you describe and result in a better production of poultry. I do not think that it is much more to say about it and you are right. I only wanted to add some Arab engineering history to it. Hakan At 15:22 13/12/2003, you wrote: There is no shortage of markets for effective airconditioning with an economical operating cost. I hardly know where to begin. Third world counties are in dire need of economical cooling even if only for the daylight hours. But leave this aside for now. Look at the farming industry. Large scale poultry houses are about 20,000 sq. ft each. They are cooled by pulling air the length of the building (500') after it has passed through a cardboard wall panel soaked with water. If the humidity outside is already 90% what good do you suppose it does to rehumidify it? A solar AC unit could pull moisture from the air as it passed a heat exchanger. Birds die with the humidity inside the building reaches 95% when the air temp inside is over 90F. I have seen 60 tons of birds die in 45 minutes in July. Your expertise could dramatically improve the livability of these birds. We work with the Native American populations on reservations in the USA. They reject many modern conveniences on principle but also on environmental grounds. A nonpolluting and inoffensive cooling system could be very attractive to them. Lets build some of these units and I bet the market will come to us. Cornelius A. Van Milligen Kentucky Enrichment Inc. www.kentuckyenrichment.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12cjc782h/M=267637.4116732.5333197.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705083307:HM/EXP=1071427422/A=1853618/R=0/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60178338partid=4116732 click here [] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives of solar-ac messages are at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/solar-ac/messageshttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/solar-ac/messages Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Hello I'm a chemical engineering student working on a biodiesel production facility design project with my senior design group at NCSU. We are only in the initial stages and do not have a lot of kinetic data yet, but I would think that removing methanol would certainly be detrimental to your yield. I do not know if the resulting equilibrium shift towards reactants would be more than you were willing to give up or not, but something tells me it would certainly be noticeable based on the fact that most recipes suggest using a large excess of alcohol to push equilibrium towards the products (biodiesel and glycerin). lagonisa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello to all: I have read some contributions to this group about methanol recovery and the different options. I would like to try the recovery before separation of bio and glycerol using a condenser that would receive the methanol fumes after finishing the reaction. I have a processor were I get 75¼C-80¼C as it is pressurized to 0,7 bar. The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, if after finishing my reaction I remove the methanol by reducing the pressure and directing the vapours through a condenser, or even I apply vacuum after despressurizing to do it faster, I can get a reduction of the conversion transforming some biodiesel into oil again. My question is: has anyone in this group measured or experienced this fact? Is there a real decrease of the yield or conversion? Lagonisa Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] ARIANA 796iEV + 5 Mins Super Chaerger ARIANA iEV Commuter System
This Malaysian EV company is looking for dealers, they will have their US sales very soon. Interested parties can contact Youhana Jafari deputy manager Arian Motors corp. to get dealership! The retail price for ARIANA 796 iEV is 18400 USD. I don't have full spec, it's about 75MPH, 170miles range. Members in Malaysia, anyone has more info? Please send or post! We are setting up this company in California, United States at present, and in the middle of 2004,we would start our vehicles' sale with our specific charger. (ARIANA iEV Commuter system). We have registered this charger and have patent for it, and until mass production of this product, we can not give it's technical specification.Generally, the operation of this charger is as following : All batteries' cells are charged in a specific method, simultaneously and separately,during 5 minutes ,by controlling battery's temperature and considering it's specifications. By considering that we want to mass-produce this product in California! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
On Saturday, December 13, 2003, at 12:02 PM, Thomus Patton wrote: I would think that removing methanol would certainly be detrimental to your yield. So would I. Most of the methanol goes into the aqueous (glycerine) layer anyway, so you can recover that portion by distilling the glyc layer alone, after separating. -K Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Lagonisa, The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, The reaction is not exactly reversible. Reversability would require the three glycerides and the glycerol recombining. That doesn't happen. Once the glycerol is cleaved it is out of the picture. You're suggesting MeOH recovery at the point where the reaction is complete and the glycerol has yet to settle out. However, that's not altogether adisable due to the continual mixing of excess catalyst with the methyl ester. If you reduce the volume of alcohol via evaporation at this point there would be a propensity for some of the ester to fracture (back crack) into FFAs and then convert to soap. Mind you that back cracking can only occur up to the point that all the catalyst is consumed in soap making. If you can monitor the reaction and insure that the balance of catalyst is infintesimally small beyond what is required to guarantee 100% completion, erego yielding but a small and controlled amount of extra soap production, then there might be some merit in extracting the alcohol prior to the glycerin cocktail settling. Otherwise? Probably none. Todd Swearingen Hello to all: I have read some contributions to this group about methanol recovery and the different options. I would like to try the recovery before separation of bio and glycerol using a condenser that would receive the methanol fumes after finishing the reaction. I have a processor were I get 75¼C-80¼C as it is pressurized to 0,7 bar. The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, if after finishing my reaction I remove the methanol by reducing the pressure and directing the vapours through a condenser, or even I apply vacuum after despressurizing to do it faster, I can get a reduction of the conversion transforming some biodiesel into oil again. My question is: has anyone in this group measured or experienced this fact? Is there a real decrease of the yield or conversion? Lagonisa Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Todd, is the amount of methanol remaining in the methyl ester considered negligible? Is it possible to determine what percentage remains in the methyl ester and what percentage in the glycerol? Maud Lagonisa, The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, The reaction is not exactly reversible. Reversability would require the three glycerides and the glycerol recombining. That doesn't happen. Once the glycerol is cleaved it is out of the picture. You're suggesting MeOH recovery at the point where the reaction is complete and the glycerol has yet to settle out. However, that's not altogether adisable due to the continual mixing of excess catalyst with the methyl ester. If you reduce the volume of alcohol via evaporation at this point there would be a propensity for some of the ester to fracture (back crack) into FFAs and then convert to soap. Mind you that back cracking can only occur up to the point that all the catalyst is consumed in soap making. If you can monitor the reaction and insure that the balance of catalyst is infintesimally small beyond what is required to guarantee 100% completion, erego yielding but a small and controlled amount of extra soap production, then there might be some merit in extracting the alcohol prior to the glycerin cocktail settling. Otherwise? Probably none. Todd Swearingen Hello to all: I have read some contributions to this group about methanol recovery and the different options. I would like to try the recovery before separation of bio and glycerol using a condenser that would receive the methanol fumes after finishing the reaction. I have a processor were I get 75¼C-80¼C as it is pressurized to 0,7 bar. The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, if after finishing my reaction I remove the methanol by reducing the pressure and directing the vapours through a condenser, or even I apply vacuum after despressurizing to do it faster, I can get a reduction of the conversion transforming some biodiesel into oil again. My question is: has anyone in this group measured or experienced this fact? Is there a real decrease of the yield or conversion? Lagonisa Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] EPA registration
Mark, do you know how the new EPA registration might affect running a car on 100% veggie oil? How does a person go about paying the fuel tax for these alt fuels? Best, Edward Mendoza [EMAIL PROTECTED] 707.537.7392 211 Hayman Court Santa Rosa, CA 95409 Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 08:13:56 - From: skillshare [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: bad news about EPA registration Re: Commercial production Hi Keith and others, I've got more info about the EPA registration issue and it's not good. I sent the info that Keith compiled http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/27488 to Jon Van Gerpen of Iowa State University who then contacted the EPA about the discrepancy in their registration process (I'm not sure who exactly he spoke with). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Ariana EV 796i web link
http://ariana-ev.com/ariana796i.htm And you will have to use their ARIANA 796 iEV Commuter Charging System, charge up Li-ion battery pack in 5 minutes(85% of capacity) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation
I'd like to know what you base this statement on. mark -- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once the glycerol is cleaved it is out of the picture. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: EPA registration
hi edward, The vegoil issue has been addressed here in the recent past. I think if you search for 'detrick' you will get to the post about SVO and the EPA. the biodiesel registratin issue is completely different, though, as the EPA knows that they're very different fuels. Fuel tax- search here for death and taxes' for some info aobut federal excise tax (or an exemption to it) for small users of svo or homebrew biodiesel. the state of California still wants their 18 cents a gallon regardles of what you use and the department in charge of collecting it is called the Board of Equalization I think. take care, mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Edward Mendoza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark, do you know how the new EPA registration might affect running a car on 100% veggie oil? How does a person go about paying the fuel tax for these alt fuels? Best, Edward Mendoza [EMAIL PROTECTED] 707.537.7392 211 Hayman Court Santa Rosa, CA 95409 Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 08:13:56 - From: skillshare [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: bad news about EPA registration Re: Commercial production Hi Keith and others, I've got more info about the EPA registration issue and it's not good. I sent the info that Keith compiled http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/27488 to Jon Van Gerpen of Iowa State University who then contacted the EPA about the discrepancy in their registration process (I'm not sure who exactly he spoke with). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] EPA registration
Mark, do you know how the new EPA registration might affect running a car on 100% veggie oil? It has nothing to do with the new EPA registration. SVO-WVO are not legal fuels for on-road use in the US. In other words they're illegal. What seems most weird is that apart from the Biofuel list member who uncovered this, Detrick Merz, nobody in the SVO community seems to be working to change this, including the vendors of SVO kits/plans, though according to the EPA it's mainly their responsibility. For more info see: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/?keywords=detricktime=allusert ime=2002-12-31 How does a person go about paying the fuel tax for these alt fuels? Biodiesel has two taxes, federal and state. State laws vary. Either the vendor or the user has to pay the tax. You can't pay fuel tax on SVO-WVO because it's not a regiustered fuel for on-road use. Best Keith Addison Best, Edward Mendoza [EMAIL PROTECTED] 707.537.7392 211 Hayman Court Santa Rosa, CA 95409 Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 08:13:56 - From: skillshare [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: bad news about EPA registration Re: Commercial production Hi Keith and others, I've got more info about the EPA registration issue and it's not good. I sent the info that Keith compiled http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/27488 to Jon Van Gerpen of Iowa State University who then contacted the EPA about the discrepancy in their registration process (I'm not sure who exactly he spoke with). Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: NBB convention - was bad news about EPA registration
Hi again Mark Hi Keith and others, snip (see previous) Also another heads-up: someone whom I know in the NBB contacted me about their winter convention- they're having a 'small producer panel' discussion in the convention. They're trying to get Jim Caldwell to be one of the speakers,and didn't know yet who the others would be. My acquaintance in the NBB read the official statement about the panel to me- and it said something like 'while we recognise that small producers have a role to play in the development of the biodiesel market (which I read rather cynically!), We can be useful and are worth coopting for such worthy issues as pushing for the continuance of the soy subsidy, the passing of the Energy Handout, er, Energy Bill, and so on, and also we generate more good publicity for biodiesel for free than all those expensive PR agencies they employ seem to do. From actual discussions on collaboration between industry and the grassroots movement: - We are extremely eager to get involved in the grassroots movement for biofuels. I would be highly interested in discussing further a collaborative effort to pressure the ultimate decision makers from the flanks. - We want to corral the efforts of these advocates. Note corral. - While we have the supply, we can only go as far as demand will take us. We believe that a grassroots effort will generate this needed demand. You need us, but do we need you? but [I paraphrase here cause I can't remember the actual language] the issues of quality need to be addressed' or something like that. I think they must be programmed that way or something, probably by Microsoft. Despite hell and high water they're STILL saying that, at least since this, from an ex-President of the NBB, relayed to me privately, date Dec 1999: One word of caution, however. When dealing with the biofuels industry it is very important to always speak of fuels that have been certified to meet the specifications as set by testing and standards organizations, e.g., ASTM, or that is warrantied by engine manufacturers. Proponents of make-it-yourself fuel or not looked upon as serious because there is no way to ensure consistent fuel quality. Of course, these groups can be very helpful when approaching government to demonstrate community-wide support. - and on and on, through the Perils of Homebrew BS that's STILL posted at their site, through the whole Graham Noyes of World Energy saga where Graham was finally forced to retract his claims of actual cases of sub-spec homebrew causing widespread damage and wrecking the market, admitting it was baseless industry rumour-mongering, and that we can and do make quality fuel, through his then undertaking to inform industry that we are indeed to be looked upon as serious, through repeated instances of sub-spec industry/NBB brew causing widespread damage and wrecking the market (and you say they haven't noticed it yet!!), down to this foolish letter to the editor written by an NBB flunky following Tom Leue's accident: http://www.gazettenet.com/story.cfm?id_no=11170004 GazetteNET.com | Opinion Homemade biodiesel fuel not a good idea Monday, November 17, 2003 -- To the editor: Backyard biodiesel producers should heed Tom Leue's advice in an Oct. 20 article to shut up shop. After an explosion in his backyard operation, he said he would not try producing biodiesel again, and wouldn't recommend others make homemade biodiesel. Biodiesel, a cleaner-burning alternative to diesel that can be made from any fat or vegetable like soybean oil, is the safest fuel to use, handle and store. However, the production process involves reacting methanol and is not something that should be taken lightly. Additionally, fuel quality is critical. The only way for consumers to know they are getting biodiesel that meets the national standard is to buy it from a reputable, commercial facility whose biodiesel product is registered with the Environmental Protection Agency and meets the quality standards set forth by the American Society of Testing and Materials. It is difficult to maintain consistent quality control with homemade biodiesel. Usually, it is not properly tested and often does not meet commercial-grade quality standards. More than 350 fleets nationwide use commercial biodiesel successfully in their diesel vehicles. Biodiesel is a great way to reduce pollution, contribute to the US economy and protect domestic energy security. Consumers just need to protect themselves by buying it from reputable producers. Paul Nazzaro Representative National Biodiesel Board Lynnfield , MA As if that was the point!!! - as you remarked at the time: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/29955/ And now they're including (are they?) the small fry in their convention with the same proviso. I think we can give up on them, don't you? Now this was amusing to me to hear. I guess that's the right response by now, what the hell. I find I
Re: [biofuel] bad news about EPA registration Re: Commercial production
Hi Mark I'll write two responses to this, since it's about two different issues. First on the EPA registration issue. Hi Keith and others, I've got more info about the EPA registration issue and it's not good. I sent the info that Keith compiled ( http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/27488/ ) to Jon Van Gerpen of Iowa State University who then contacted the EPA about the discrepancy in their registration process (I'm not sure who exactly he spoke with). I didn't get full details yet from Dr Van Gerpen (especially the question of whom it was that he spoke with, but Ill try and find out next week) , but here's what he wrote to me: Quote: Regarding my email exchange with EPA. It was pretty much a bust. I explained to them my understanding of the registration process and then asked them for the rationale they use to categorize biodiesel as an atypical fuel. It is not so categorised - why does he think that? See below. In the response I received, they confirmed that my understanding of the process was correct but ignored my request for the rationale. I can't fault them too much for not being responsive. We're all busy. However, I still think there is no sound technical basis for not including biodiesel as a non-baseline fuel. It is so included, according to an EPA ruling reffed below, which the EPA's previous (please note) policy (?) on this issue apparently ignored. They have since acknowledged it, and changed their policy accordingly. This would allow it to qualify for the small business exemptions. It does so qualify. I think the most likely path to getting this would be to find a friendly senator who might be willing to push the EPA to loosen up. (end quote) It's kind of critical who he spoke to. Look at the kind of thing you're finding - the NBB is out of touch on B100 issues, on small-producers, on the sub-spec fuel their members have been supplying, and, despite Graham Noyes' work and more, about the FACT that the bad press they give - STILL give - homebrewers is baseless BS which they should perhaps apply to themselves, where they might find it's far from baseless. The one hand doesn't know what the other hand's doing. Same in most bureaucracies. Biofuels-biz members did a lot of work identifying the issues and finding the relevant rules regs and docs, and then confronting EPA officials with their own rules. As it unfolded you could see a sequence of changing statements from the EPA, moving from one side to exactly the other. This was the result: ... According to this, biodiesel (either as a fuel or an additive) doesn't meet Baseline or Non-Baseline because its made from non-petroleum sources. Joe Sopata of the EPA has stated that any blend of 6% biodiesel or less was considered a non-baseline fuel, and anything over 6% was considered atypical, and therefore not subject to the Tier 1 exemption. But we could not find these definitions in any EPA documents. What we did find in an EPA document is this: An exception is biodiesel, which is one group, even though it consists of mixed alkyl esters of plant and/or animal origin. http://www.epa.gov/icr/icrs/icrpages/1696ss03.htm This makes biodiesel a non-baseline diesel group, and thus exempt from Tier I and Tier II testing for producers with total annual sales of less than $50 million. For more on this, see Thor Skov's post below. Joe Sopata has since said, in answer to enquiries, that producers who sell less than $10,000,000 annually are exempt from Tier I and Tier II as long as their fuel meets the ASTM standard (ASTM D-6751). This is what I was told: Joe Sopata again stated that fuels meeting all ASTM standards for biodiesel are eligible for the exemptions. Jim Caldwell at EPA stated the same. Also that the test for being a non-baseline fuel is meeting the standards. Not meeting the standards puts fuel in the atypical category and comes with requirements for Tier I. Further, he stated that the problems associated with yellow grease biodiesel were meeting the standard for viscosity. That is clear enough. I think Jon van Gerpen's trying to reinvent the wheel - why go through all that work again? And perhaps risk a different outcome? He absolutely needs to discuss it with first Joe Sopata and second Jim Caldwell, or preferably both, and cite the previous discussions with the Biofuels-biz members. Joe Sopata and Jim Caldwell made statements and undertakings, they can and must be held to them. Some of the discussion material is in the compilation I did, the rest can easily be found in the Biofuels-biz archives. I'm sure if Jon van Gerpen contacted those concerned they'd be more than happy to work with him on it. As it it, it seems to me he's largely ignoring this invaluable work that's already been done, quite probably dealing with someone who doesn't know of it (one hand...), getting a negative response, and concluding, wrongly, that it all has to be done all over again, or
Re: [biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation
That portion of the reaction is in all practicality uni-directional. The energy required to attach a MeOH molecule to the fatty acid is considerably less than the energy required to re-attach the glycerol. The reason for keeping a reaction severely agitated is not to keep the cleaved glycerol involved in the reaction, as it no longer plays a direct role, but to keep the remaining alcohol and catalyst fractions in continual contact, which in the majority would migrate more freely to the glycerol (indirect role) and settle out along with it prior to a reaction's completion. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: skillshare [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 12:06 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation I'd like to know what you base this statement on. mark -- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once the glycerol is cleaved it is out of the picture. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Lagonisa, The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, The reaction is not exactly reversible. Reversability would require the three glycerides and the glycerol recombining. That doesn't happen. Once the glycerol is cleaved it is out of the picture. You're suggesting MeOH recovery at the point where the reaction is complete and the glycerol has yet to settle out. However, that's not altogether adisable due to the continual mixing of excess catalyst with the methyl ester. If you reduce the volume of alcohol via evaporation at this point there would be a propensity for some of the ester to fracture (back crack) into FFAs and then convert to soap. Mind you that back cracking can only occur up to the point that all the catalyst is consumed in soap making. If you can monitor the reaction and insure that the balance of catalyst is infintesimally small beyond what is required to guarantee 100% completion, erego yielding but a small and controlled amount of extra soap production, then there might be some merit in extracting the alcohol prior to the glycerin cocktail settling. Otherwise? Probably none. Todd Swearingen Hi Todd Yet that's what Dale Scroggins does, apparently with good results. The touchless processor http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#touchfree http://home.swbell.net/scrof/Biod_Proc.html Michael Allen and Gumpon Prateepchaikul's set-up at Prince of Songkla University in Thailand also reclaims the methanol at the end of the processing stage, though differently, and with high efficiency and a high-quality product (they test it). I wonder if this isn't somewhat theoretical, as with the idea that using acid in the wash will definitely backsplit biodiesel to FFAs and must definitely be avoided. If properly done - which of course shouldn't be merely so solve an emulsion problem (improve the process!) - it has the advantage of thoroughly neutralizing the catalyst, at the cost of traces of FFA which remain well within the standard specs. So here the same perhaps applies, as you indicate - a well-controlled process with the right amount of catalyst and the right amount of everything else too. Needs and economics will differ from case to case, and I think methanol recovery should be an option at each of the three possible stages it can be done - straight after processing, using the existing heat (to start with), recovering excess methanol from both the ester and the by-product; recovering the excess methanol from the by-product cocktail (that is most of it), which leaves the balance to be accounted for (in the first wash water); recovering the excess methanol from the glycerine itself after separating the by-product components (which still leaves the balance in the first wash water). Best Keith Hello to all: I have read some contributions to this group about methanol recovery and the different options. I would like to try the recovery before separation of bio and glycerol using a condenser that would receive the methanol fumes after finishing the reaction. I have a processor were I get 75¼C-80¼C as it is pressurized to 0,7 bar. The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, if after finishing my reaction I remove the methanol by reducing the pressure and directing the vapours through a condenser, or even I apply vacuum after despressurizing to do it faster, I can get a reduction of the conversion transforming some biodiesel into oil again. My question is: has anyone in this group measured or experienced this fact? Is there a real decrease of the yield or conversion? Lagonisa Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Maud, I wouldn't consider the MeOH content in the biodiesel to be negligible. Not at all. Unfortunately, many others consider it so. Simplest method to determine the volume of MeOH that resides in the biodiesel and glycerol, as well as the volume that was consumed in reaction, is to measure the volumes of alcohol laden biodiesel and glycerol, evaporate the MeOH and then measure the remaining volumes of each. The easiest way, IMNSHO, to determine if the MeOH volume in the biodiesel fraction is negligible is to stick one's nose over a container and huff it. (Not advised, but the point being made should be easy enough to decipher.) Without removing the alcohol you've got a fluid that has a flashpoint essentially the same as methanol, rather than the rather safe flashpoint of biodiesel. To test that theory, take a piece of cotton wick, anchor it in a 6 ounce metal tomato paste can as if you're going to make a candle. Fill the can with MeOH laden biodiesel. Light the wick as if the can were an oil candle. Sit back and watch. Everything goes fine for a bit, that is until the fuel heats up to the boiling point of alcohol. Then you have a runaway alcohol torch. That's the same alochol that would normally get washed down someone's drain or flushed out into the back forty. The same stuff that a lot of people consider insignificant. We haven't yet taken any time to quantify the average volume of MeOH that remains in the biodiesel. But it is a safe bet that the ratio is consistent between the biodiesel and glycerol fractions no matter how much alcohol is originally used. The more alcohol used in the reaction, the more alcohol will remain in the biodiesel and end up in the wastewater stream if evaporation is not conducted prior. Most people have probably noticed that MeOH and biodiesel are completely miscible in each other in any volume. If a person is worried about the energy inputs required to recover the alcohol from the biodiesel, then they should be looking at insulation, heat recovery and renewable fuels for the energy inputs. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Maud Essen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation Todd, is the amount of methanol remaining in the methyl ester considered negligible? Is it possible to determine what percentage remains in the methyl ester and what percentage in the glycerol? Maud Lagonisa, The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, The reaction is not exactly reversible. Reversability would require the three glycerides and the glycerol recombining. That doesn't happen. Once the glycerol is cleaved it is out of the picture. You're suggesting MeOH recovery at the point where the reaction is complete and the glycerol has yet to settle out. However, that's not altogether adisable due to the continual mixing of excess catalyst with the methyl ester. If you reduce the volume of alcohol via evaporation at this point there would be a propensity for some of the ester to fracture (back crack) into FFAs and then convert to soap. Mind you that back cracking can only occur up to the point that all the catalyst is consumed in soap making. If you can monitor the reaction and insure that the balance of catalyst is infintesimally small beyond what is required to guarantee 100% completion, erego yielding but a small and controlled amount of extra soap production, then there might be some merit in extracting the alcohol prior to the glycerin cocktail settling. Otherwise? Probably none. Todd Swearingen Hello to all: I have read some contributions to this group about methanol recovery and the different options. I would like to try the recovery before separation of bio and glycerol using a condenser that would receive the methanol fumes after finishing the reaction. I have a processor were I get 75¼C-80¼C as it is pressurized to 0,7 bar. The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, if after finishing my reaction I remove the methanol by reducing the pressure and directing the vapours through a condenser, or even I apply vacuum after despressurizing to do it faster, I can get a reduction of the conversion transforming some biodiesel into oil again. My question is: has anyone in this group measured or experienced this fact? Is there a real decrease of the yield or conversion? Lagonisa Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker
